I am trying to lose my arm muscles. They are by no means big but I want then to be either skinny or soft. I had a surgery where I was stuck in bed for a year and I lost an unhealthy amount of weight down to 112lbs. Then over the course of a few months I jumped to 145 without changing my waist line. Muscles are heavy and I find my arms muscles got stronger/bigger and my leg muscles got bigger. I don't mind the leg muscles at all since they are really shapely and I consider them perfectly girly; exactly how I would want a girl friends legs to look but the arm muscles are too much. I have had no testosterone for 2 months and started eating one meal a day and not doing much activity but they just won't atrophy like they did after my surgery. My traps are another muscle I dont want. I went crazy working out when I was younger and they won't go away. How do the trans girls in porn manage to do that? Some are sickly/gross skinny but most have small arms. My skeletal frame and wrists are very small so thats not the problem. Do you eat just carbs/ just protein/ a balanced diet? I'm sure not very many people would want to lose muscle. Will the estrogen help and I need to just wait?
Okay so... Take this all with a grain of salt, I have never tried this, I just read a bit about it recently. Someone like Deborah is probably far better suited to answer this question. But the gist of what I read seemed to be eat a high carb, low protein (like, none) diet while doing cardio or low intensity endurance exercise for the area. You don't want to get rid of all muscle, you want it to sort of shift to leaner muscle. The no protein thing is the problem though, and shouldn't be done for very long. Might be the sort of thing to do under supervision. If HRT doesn't take care of it, I am going to have to deal with the same issue at some point. (My family just builds and maintain muscle too easily and so it just sort of sits there without me trying. Normally a good thing, now... not so much.)
I just noticed that my muscle is melting away everywhere. Legs are still defined, but not overly so. Even there though I'm getting leaner with a thicker fat layer. Was looking today. The triangle of back, shoulder, and arms is just about non existant now. Just been eating a high protein, no sugar or carbs diet and doing light exercise along with hrt.
Quote from: krobinson103 on January 09, 2018, 11:50:55 PM
I just noticed that my muscle is melting away everywhere. Legs are still defined, but not overly so. Even there though I'm getting leaner with a thicker fat layer. Was looking today. The triangle of back, shoulder, and arms is just about non existant now. Just been eating a high protein, no sugar or carbs diet and doing light exercise along with hrt.
At how many months hrt is that?
Quote from: Roll on January 10, 2018, 12:11:58 AM
At how many months hrt is that?
Three months hrt and a pretty hrt like diet for a few years before that (unintentional...) That and a pretty low T to start with.
HRT and wait.
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on January 09, 2018, 10:19:22 PM
I am trying to lose my arm muscles. They are by no means big but I want then to be either skinny or soft. I had a surgery where I was stuck in bed for a year and I lost an unhealthy amount of weight down to 112lbs. Then over the course of a few months I jumped to 145 without changing my waist line. Muscles are heavy and I find my arms muscles got stronger/bigger and my leg muscles got bigger. I don't mind the leg muscles at all since they are really shapely and I consider them perfectly girly; exactly how I would want a girl friends legs to look but the arm muscles are too much. I have had no testosterone for 2 months and started eating one meal a day and not doing much activity but they just won't atrophy like they did after my surgery. My traps are another muscle I dont want. I went crazy working out when I was younger and they won't go away. How do the trans girls in porn manage to do that? Some are sickly/gross skinny but most have small arms. My skeletal frame and wrists are very small so thats not the problem. Do you eat just carbs/ just protein/ a balanced diet? I'm sure not very many people would want to lose muscle. Will the estrogen help and I need to just wait?
I am in no way good with dealing fitness advice, but i think going with a more cardio workout routine along with eating healthy helps?
If your T is already low and you're not eating then maybe they're not going to get any smaller without you compromising your health with starvation.
How big are they now and how tall are you? Unless you're really short then 145 lbs doesn't give you any room to lose weight either.
Lastly, getting overly skinny isn't the end all solution to passing. I do powerlifting three days a week and running three other days a week and have gotten stronger now than I was before HRT. I also eat healthily over 2000 cal a day with the occasional massive chocolate day once a week or so. Even with 30 lbs of fat loss my arms are only about a half inch smaller and better defined and I still pass most of the time. HRT will change what needs to be changed with time as long as you maintain a healthy diet and keep yourself in good condition at a healthy and proportional to your height weight.
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Quote from: Deborah on January 10, 2018, 05:39:35 AM
If your T is already low and you're not eating then maybe they're not going to get any smaller without you compromising your health with starvation.
How big are they now and how tall are you? Unless you're really short then 145 lbs doesn't give you any room to lose weight either.
Lastly, getting overly skinny isn't the end all solution to passing. I do powerlifting three days a week and running three other days a week and have gotten stronger now than I was before HRT. I also eat healthily over 2000 cal a day with the occasional massive chocolate day once a week or so. Even with 30 lbs of fat loss my arms are only about a half inch smaller and better defined and I still pass most of the time. HRT will change what needs to be changed with time as long as you maintain a healthy diet and keep yourself in good condition at a healthy and proportional to your height weight.
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I'm 5'2" so that has potential to lose weight I think. The problem is I have almost no body fat. Im not obsessed with the number so much as I will weigh more then I look due to core and back muscles and big leg muscles. When I was bed ridden and poor I did 125 lbs but tried that for 6 weeks and it didn't work. I also took more thyroid hormone for extra boost.
tops of arms are 12" inch around assuing toilet paper is 4" perside
The tops of my legs are 20" around and almost perfect since quitting test they just need a butt to connect to and I would be very happy. I would take my legs over most cis girls legs/feet.
I'm 5'11" and 173 lbs. my arms are 12" relaxed and 13.5" flexed and my legs are 24".
If you're already eating well and not overly fat then you just need to wait for HRT to do its work. It takes a while.
If you want to grow your butt then there are only two ways. One is allowing yourself to gain fat on HRT. The other is gaining muscle in your posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, and spinal erectors) with heavy weights. I'm trying the second method with squats and deadlifts. Either method will work and both take time.
Personally, I prefer the second method because it keeps me healthy. I tried the gaining fat method too and just didn't like where that was heading.
As for the really skinny ones in porn, they are likely ectomorphs to begin with so that's just their genetics. You have to work within your genetic body type blueprint. If you're a mesomorphic type, which is what it sounds like, then you can't look like an ectomorph without becoming anorexic.
Also, what has helped my mental state is comparing myself to athletic women rather than fashion models. My body isn't going to become a fashion model short of some drastic surgeries I do not desire. It can however approach the athletic look with hard work and time.
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Quote from: Deborah on January 10, 2018, 06:31:28 AM
I'm 5'11" and 173 lbs. my arms are 12" relaxed and 13.5" flexed and my legs are 24".
If you're already eating well and not overly fat then you just need to wait for HRT to do its work. It takes a while.
If you want to grow your butt then there are only two ways. One is allowing yourself to gain fat on HRT. The other is gaining muscle in your posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings, and spinal erectors) with heavy weights. I'm trying the second method with squats and deadlifts. Either method will work and both take time.
Personally, I prefer the second method because it keeps me healthy. I tried the gaining fat method too and just didn't like where that was heading.
As for the really skinny ones in porn, they are likely ectomorphs to begin with so that's just their genetics. You have to work within your genetic body type blueprint. If you're a mesomorphic type, which is what it sounds like, then you can't look like an ectomorph without becoming anorexic.
Also, what has helped my mental state is comparing myself to athletic women rather than fashion models. My body isn't going to become a fashion model short of some drastic surgeries I do not desire. It can however approach the athletic look with hard work and time.
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I used to work out alot and its really mking my butt hard and man shaped. I can't ever see getting the heart shape by exercise although you are absolute right your way is better. For some reason I was never attracted to athletic women like at all I don't want to be athletic at all: that doesn't mean overweight and out of shape but I can't lift things more then 5 lbs since my surgery and that what men are for. I guess its a way of coping with my disability but I have no more desire to be strong. They lift heavy thing so we don't have to. I also have this need or really strong desire to be physically weaker then my partner. I just "romantic wrestling" where I lose every time. I have this weird thing where I want to be a subservient female. I know thats bad for womans rights and most don't agree with that in 2018 but I really like be the subservient in everything.
I'm not a doc, nor gym guru, but my understanding is that if you're already low on T, you cannot gain too much muscle mass already, and if you did then it's not gonna get away easily.
I would think, that you should fatten your hands (as in add carbo and fats to your diet to gain some weight) to cover up your muscles to look feminine (female body is supposed to be soft and normal body fat index for a female is much higher than for male). I presume you are on E as well - not just low on T, so your fat would be stored in appropriate areas.
Also, add stretching to your exercises - the longer your muscles are, the less bulky they appear.
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Hey Little Sister,
Yes... HRT and patience will be your friend... I lost about 20 pounds of upper body muscle in the first year and about another 10 more much of it in my back after that... I was very solid in the upper body from years of surfing a lot.... I'm 5' 8" and 138 pounds now and the loss of back muscle reduced my bra band size from a 36 to a 32"
All will be well
Ashley 😀❤️🌻
Quote from: tgirlamc on January 10, 2018, 10:19:27 AM
the loss of back muscle reduce my bra band size from a 36 to a 32"
Well that is the best news I'll hear today. I know results vary, but I have definitely have prominent back muscles and have been self conscious about having a 40 band size at this point. I figured with weight off it would drop to 38 or so (I can pinch at least two inches of pure fat still around lower bust), but that still feels high for end result. I figured back muscles would be only a small change, but If I went down even half of your result with 2 more inches offI'd be sitting pretty at 36. Seems too much to hope for, but at the same time, mathematically realistic.
Mine went from 39" to 36" with fat loss even with all the weights I lift.
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I didn't know your bra # size could go down. Mine feels like ribcage but now that you say that I have alot of muscle under my arm pits/(lats?) I remember working those alot. Theres not much fat left. Seems to be staying in the breast area.
Quote from: SadieBlake on January 10, 2018, 01:23:14 PM
2 months away from testosterone (I assume that means on estrogen HRT?) isn't enough to even begin the reshifting of body fat that will have an effect on your figure.
Seriously consider whether compromising your strength is worth an appearance change. I've worked for years to maximize my core and leg strength and do what I can to keep my muscle bulk all over to a minimum, however strength and especially endurance (which is where women excel over men) are my objectives.
The workouts many people do in gyms are very much intended to add bulk and aren't optimal for strength so the main thing you can do is tailor your exercise to that end.
My reference for this was Mark Twight who wrote a book on training for high altitude mountaineering, focused on strength to weigh ratio. His advice was to only do strength training in very high intensity -- sets of 3-4 reps to failure. That's worked amazingly well for.me of course with the proviso that at that intensity your form has to be perfect to avoid injury.
And of course that means protein and nutrient rich foods.
I'm in a unique situation: My body doesn't make test. So I have to take a huge dose each week. I stopped taking that in october 2017 . I see the HRT doctor in feb so no estrogen for me.
As far as gaining strength gym training I can't really. The bottom half of my back has about 20 metal rods holding it together and I have osteoporosis at age 35 for some weird reason. So I can't really do anything physical. I thought I would turn into a very obese person but instead I got really skinny at one point 130~lbs but people said I didn't look healthy and I really didn't like having skinny legs. I was bed ridden 20 hrs a day for a year. Then 1.5 years into my surgery my weight just shot up 35 lbs and my waist stayed the same size. I did nothing different other then lie in bed and sleep all day.
Then for the last 10 weeks I didn't really eat much. Maybe 1200 calories a day on most days with once a week eating 2500. Drank only water. So that lost me 15 lbs not sure if it was fat or muscle was a little fat but I only have a little bit left on my belly. Cup size actually went up but still a B to fill my biggest B bra I had and nipples look and feel more like girl nipples then guy nipples? ??? My thigh high boots are easier to put on too; more room around the tops and haven't relaced them. My dresses feel looser. The slope of my shoulders is a little flatter bra straps dont slid down. How do the trans porn girls on the internet get so skinny? Drugs? I'm not going to do that.
Normally I found it easy to go from 205 to 155 lbs. But going below this seems really hard. My frame is really small so that shouldn't contribute to the weight much. I know my legs are heavy so I don't worship the scale but more of the tape measure.
Plus I like being physically weak so my partner can over power me. Seems weird but its like how I like being really submissive in my private life and like it when someone I trust has almost complete control over me. I really feel lost without that dominate person in control which is in total contrast to who I am when dealing with people in public. So yeah I don't want to be strong.
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on January 10, 2018, 05:59:56 PM
I didn't know your bra # size could go down. Mine feels like ribcage but now that you say that I have alot of muscle under my arm pits/(lats?) I remember working those alot. Theres not much fat left. Seems to be staying in the breast area.
I'm in a unique situation: My body doesn't make test. So I have to take a huge dose each week. I stopped taking that in october 2017 . I see the HRT doctor in feb so no estrogen for me.
As far as gaining strength gym training I can't really. The bottom half of my back has about 20 metal rods holding it together and I have osteoporosis at age 35 for some weird reason. So I can't really do anything physical. I thought I would turn into a very obese person but instead I got really skinny at one point 130~lbs but people said I didn't look healthy and I really didn't like having skinny legs. I was bed ridden 20 hrs a day for a year. Then 1.5 years into my surgery my weight just shot up 35 lbs and my waist stayed the same size. I did nothing different other then lie in bed and sleep all day.
Then for the last 10 weeks I didn't really eat much. Maybe 1200 calories a day on most days with once a week eating 2500. Drank only water. So that lost me 15 lbs not sure if it was fat or muscle was a little fat but I only have a little bit left on my belly. Cup size actually went up but still a B to fill my biggest B bra I had and nipples look and feel more like girl nipples then guy nipples? ??? My thigh high boots are easier to put on too; more room around the tops and haven't relaced them. My dresses feel looser. The slope of my shoulders is a little flatter bra straps dont slid down. How do the trans porn girls on the internet get so skinny? Drugs? I'm not going to do that.
Normally I found it easy to go from 205 to 155 lbs. But going below this seems really hard. My frame is really small so that shouldn't contribute to the weight much. I know my legs are heavy so I don't worship the scale but more of the tape measure.
Plus I like being physically weak so my partner can over power me. Seems weird but its like how I like being really submissive in my private life and like it when someone I trust has almost complete control over me. I really feel lost without that dominate person in control which is in total contrast to who I am when dealing with people in public. So yeah I don't want to be strong.
To look healthy, your body fat index must be around 25% for female... so, don't starve yourself, even without physical exercises.
Quote from: elkie-t on January 10, 2018, 10:12:16 PM
To look healthy, your body fat index must be around 25% for female... so, don't starve yourself, even without physical exercises.
I'm not sure that number is accurate for trans women. Isn't a good bit of the fat % for cis women part of the uterine lining? (Though obviously to have any sort of breasts or curves, body fat should still be a lot higher than guys.)
Quote from: Roll on January 10, 2018, 10:38:20 PM
I'm not sure that number is accurate for trans women. Isn't a good bit of the fat % for cis women part of the uterine lining? (Though obviously to have any sort of breasts or curves, body fat should still be a lot higher than guys.)
Yeah I thought it was like 12% or 10%. Wikipedia time!
The problem for trans women is that we tend to accumulate fat around the waist. So at 25% you just end up with a big round belly.
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Quote from: Roll on January 10, 2018, 10:38:20 PM
Isn't a good bit of the fat % for cis women part of the uterine lining?
No. That is completely and utterly not true.
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on January 10, 2018, 10:43:21 PM
Yeah I thought it was like 12% or 10%. Wikipedia time!
Wiki says lean for women is 21-25%, and 14-17% for men. Very lean will be 14-20% for women and 7-14% for men. So, i rest my case.
Quote from: rmaddy on January 11, 2018, 12:19:57 AM
No. That is completely and utterly not true.
I'm trying to remember what it was I read, it was a while back now well before I was even thinking about transitioning (was trying to explain to my sister she isn't fat maybe like a year and a half or two ago). But there was something to do with essential fat for women and reproductive health, where the higher body fat recommendations were based around that and not cosmetics of breast tissue and what not. I thought I remembered it talking about the uterine lining, but not surprised I am mistaken since it has been so long. Whatever it was, it seems that it wouldn't apply to trans women making the normal female fat %s not quite accurate?
Quote from: Deborah on January 11, 2018, 12:04:18 AM
The problem for trans women is that we tend to accumulate fat around the waist. So at 25% you just end up with a big round belly.
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I don't mind that provided it also goes to the hips and butt. I just hate the manly belly.
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on January 12, 2018, 01:02:23 PM
I don't mind that provided it also goes to the hips and butt. I just hate the manly belly.
I think there is a balance there. Lose too much and the hips go, keep too much and the belly is there. I figure a little above what is 'normal' (stupid word for weight...) is probably ideal to pad out the large male bones. Going skinny won't be terribly helpful.
Women also accumulate fat at the waist, in addition to the thighs, buttocks, arms and breasts. There is really no way to gain breast/butt fat without gaining at the other sites, nor is there a way to lose at the belly without losing at the other sites.
The good news? There are ways of learning to dress to adorn the beautiful sculpture that you already effin' are.
Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 03:31:57 PM
Women also accumulate fat at the waist, in addition to the thighs, buttocks, arms and breasts. There is really no way to gain breast/butt fat without gaining at the other sites, nor is there a way to lose at the belly without losing at the other sites.
The good news? There are ways of learning to dress to adorn the beautiful sculpture that you already effin' are.
Thats good to know. How come your info box has no info?
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on February 24, 2018, 01:42:35 AM
Thats good to know. How come your info box has no info?
Think it means she closed her account? ???
Quote from: Roll on February 24, 2018, 08:41:29 AM
Think it means she closed her account? ???
I figured it out that means they kicked her off violating terms of service. If each info box said "Banned" like on most forums people/new members would start asking why or calling it unfair. I always like to remind people that forums are not democracies protected by freedom of speech or what they would deem as fair like in court. Rather you quietly make them go away and people think they just stopped posting quieting unrest before it starts. It's their forum they can do what ever they want and you have to play by their rules as they always point out in their "TOS" or "terms of service" like how gmail can just delete your gmail account with the only explanation being you broke the rules. Even though the members donate it's still not their forum. Once you realize this it's much easier. Eliminates drama and headache on their end and keeps things on topic.
Quote from: Lexi Nexi on February 24, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
I figured it out that means they kicked her off violating terms of service. If each info box said "Banned" like on most forums people/new members would start asking why or calling it unfair. I always like to remind people that forums are not democracies protected by freedom of speech or what they would deem as fair like in court. Rather you quietly make them go away and people think they just stopped posting quieting unrest before it starts. It's their forum they can do what ever they want and you have to play by their rules as they always point out in their "TOS" or "terms of service" like how gmail can just delete your gmail account with the only explanation being you broke the rules. Even though the members donate it's still not their forum. Once you realize this it's much easier. Eliminates drama and headache on their end and keeps things on topic.
Hi Lexi Nexi,
Your comment above is not quite correct. There are several reasons why there may be nothing it the user's information box. The only thing that you can be sure of is that the account has been closed. It is true RMaddy is no long a member for whatever reason. I am not even sure what the reason was as there was no report made to explain it. I am pretty sure there would have been one if a TOS violation was involved.
As far as the rest of your comments you are correct in pointing out that this forum and many others are privately owned sites each with their own set of rules. This site like most is not a democracy. There is one owner and a staff that help run the site. For the most part I think it is run pretty well and it is a joint effort in all the various aspects of the site. But the ultimate authority of the site is Susan. As long as we user's (yes staff are users) comply with the stated Terms of Service and the User Agreement it runs pretty well for all of us. I know I like it here and hope that everyone else does also. Just to cover two important items in the TOS that are good for all of us to keep in mind. Those being 2 & 3.
2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policies, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have any issues, contact Susan by email, or forum private message, and not bring these types of issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to handle problems of this nature see item #20 below.
3. Posting is a privilege, not a right. We have the inherent right to block access to our services to anyone for any reason. We also have the right to disable or remove from any account features and/or functionality of this website, and to edit or remove any posting from any forum for any reason.
Laurie
Global Moderator
Laurie@susans.org
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
Membership Agreement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216851.0.html)[/quote]
I think that it just takes time. For some reason I believe that I read somewhere that muscle and fat redistribution happen most in 3 to 7 years.
My fat is changing and muscles shrinking, finally, but it is slow. I am 5' 10" weigh 200 lbs, yeah I got some fat, I just measured my arms and they are 15" at the bicep. Down an inch from last year. It is taking forever but I am beginning to have hope that it'll all look okay when done. Genetics are a real pain.
Quote from: Laurie on February 24, 2018, 05:04:32 PM
Hi Lexi Nexi,
Your comment above is not quite correct. There are several reasons why there may be nothing it the user's information box. The only thing that you can be sure of is that the account has been closed. It is true RMaddy is no long a member for whatever reason. I am not even sure what the reason was as there was no report made to explain it. I am pretty sure there would have been one if a TOS violation was involved.
As far as the rest of your comments you are correct in pointing out that this forum and many others are privately owned sites each with their own set of rules. This site like most is not a democracy. There is one owner and a staff that help run the site. For the most part I think it is run pretty well and it is a joint effort in all the various aspects of the site. But the ultimate authority of the site is Susan. As long as we user's (yes staff are users) comply with the stated Terms of Service and the User Agreement it runs pretty well for all of us. I know I like it here and hope that everyone else does also. Just to cover two important items in the TOS that are good for all of us to keep in mind. Those being 2 & 3.
2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policies, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have any issues, contact Susan by email, or forum private message, and not bring these types of issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to handle problems of this nature see item #20 below.
3. Posting is a privilege, not a right. We have the inherent right to block access to our services to anyone for any reason. We also have the right to disable or remove from any account features and/or functionality of this website, and to edit or remove any posting from any forum for any reason.
Laurie
Global Moderator
Laurie@susans.org
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) Membership Agreement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216851.0.html)
Thank you for your explanation. As far as #2 since you said "your" if I wanted to do that I would have already. It's not that hard to ruin a forum with a handful of people and a few hours of time. When I was younger and had no morals and too much time on my hands I would do that for people who had "rival" forums and extra money to spend. If I wanted to do that rule number one is don't tell how you would do that so in good faith here are things to lookout for: One or two members will be felt they were treated unfairly usually because they were. They start planting seeds of doubt in the forum. The will set up traps by committing acts in the "gray area" of whats acceptable and whats not; things that will make the mods look like dictators and oppressors of the members. They draw comparison to public events where a group was oppressed. They form a group of people then start making multiple accounts with proxies but not from ip's that come from africa or russia but countries that follow the demographics of the site using info they find about the site from google ad services and search/page rank sites. They find how the sites hosted and how much they pay for bandwidth. The also see what the monthly budget is and how much resources they will need to exceed that though a ddos and other more creative and less obvious means. While this is happening they offer the members a new forum to post in where there is an emphasis on free speech mocking the other sites TOS and making the most "oppressed" members of the old site "moderators" with really no permissions to do anything but they will have something the old forum didn't give them and something they value and feel they earned they will lose if they go back to the other forum. They keep doing this at optimum times monitoring traffic and times when people post. This becomes a war of attrition recruiting young kids who have noting better to do and want to be hackers. So give the members a place to post while the site is down: forms can be addictive and people want that constant instant gratification and will switch easily like addicts that found a new dealer. Every time the site goes down the bandwidth bill goes up. After a huge hosting bill or two the forum will try to raise money but can't because its always down. People make a large number of small donations with to intention that the forum is doing well money gets spent but right at the end of the month before the payments go through their payment processor gets nailed with charge backs and reports they are doing something wrong. Rather then deal with it they suspend the account: paypal loves to do this and keep/hold the money for months if not indefinitely. Combine this with a huge hosting bill and you might be able to get them to close down because it happens quickly and lasts two payment periods. You can do this with about 4 people and not much money money, money you can get through donations of the see members the forum gets them from. So if you see the warnings be aware but at the same time try to be lenient; nobody like to fell censored. Like I said if I wanted to do this I would but I'm an adult now and to be honest I just really don't care what happens on the internet; to me it's not real. The rule is :speed aggression and surprise: good hackers make no threats and it will just happen one day. Of course there are a whole bunch of little details that are necessary to pull this off but people can figure that out on their own.