This is a very personal thing, and I hesitate to ask, but it's a burning question I have. I know way more trans women who are attracted to other women. I feel like I'm in the minority being attracted to men. I love being admired by men, and it really affirms my female sexuality. What about you girls?
Only women. Men do nothing for me.
Just women.
Chrissy
I am only attracted to women.
I have no attraction to men at all, in fact I feel a bit of revulsion. I can overcome it and be friendly to them if we have something in common, but that would never become an attraction.
Definitely only men. You are not alone.
Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 26, 2018, 05:20:57 PM
This is a very personal thing, and I hesitate to ask, but it's a burning question I have. I know way more trans women who are attracted to other women. I feel like I'm in the minority being attracted to men. I love being admired by men, and it really affirms my female sexuality. What about you girls?
Very interesting topic! I know running a female hormone profile does change the approach & the dynamic to romantic interaction.
For instance once upon a time I could never see the value in a masculine individual as a romantic interest. Now I can see the value of someone else supplying the sexual impetus. As my disposition becomes more emotional and more dependent on the context instead of raw nudity I can see the value of a lover who is not like that.
In fact to a large extent its not about liking all men - its only special masculine individuals the have that certain something.
Ironically despite a feminine appearance my wife has some strong masculine qualities. Despite my mans man masculine facade I am feminine in many ways. My CIS wife is my guy!
I'm sure if I had transitioned at 18 when I first considered it- I would have ended up with either a man or a transman.
Great topic Beverly!
Kirsten.
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As a male I was only attracted to females.
What's interesting to me as I transition; I Kate, if I ever met a man that could truly love a fiercely independent and driven female - I believe I could enjoy and love sharing my post-op body with him.
Go figure.
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I have been in love with men and women as well even before I started my transition and I still wouldn't say that I would lean in one way or another. There are certain features and qualities that I like in people in general regardless of gender.
We'll see if anything changes when estrogen will flow through my veins in high quantities :)
Pan
Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 26, 2018, 05:20:57 PM
This is a very personal thing, and I hesitate to ask, but it's a burning question I have. I know way more trans women who are attracted to other women. I feel like I'm in the minority being attracted to men. I love being admired by men, and it really affirms my female sexuality. What about you girls?
I feel the same as you. I like guys. However I do think women are pretty. One thing I learned after transitioning is the sisterhood in compliments about our beautiful selfs. All women are beautiful in their own way.
We check each other out too. You learn to use mirrors and when to look and not.
Guys are cute, hot and sexy. At least to me 🙂
Quote from: Maid Marion on December 26, 2018, 05:42:28 PM
Only women. Men do nothing for me.
Same here, what are men? Can anybody do anything with them?
I'm in an even smaller group: asexual.
When I was a teenager I would do everything possible to have sex (like most teens), but it just never did anything for me. But I kept at it, because I figured that's what I was supposed to do. Some time in my early twenties, I heard about asexuality for the first time, and for whatever reason that was the first time I realized that not wanting sex was a wholly valid option.
Since then, I've freed myself from trying to force myself into having sex. Admittedly I do find women much more attractive, but that may just be out of jealousy.
When I first mentioned transition to my father one of the first things he said was to ask if I was attracted to women. As if it was the obvious thing to assume. Other people have assumed the same as well - apparently a transman is commonly expected to be a straight man, like most of the rest.
Interesting.
I'm - practically speaking - attracted to men, so I suppose that makes me unusual, even though technically I would be bisexual in terms of what potentially is sexually attractive. It's curious how perceptions of trans people's attraction already exists out there even where people know next to nothing about the condition. If they accept you as the gender you say, then the general idea is that you're going to act and behave like the average member of that gender. I found this a bit weird, since the implication would then be that I spent 16 years in long-term relationships with people I'm not attracted to... for some reason. They seemed to forget all about that.
I was keen to see your input into this topic Kylo!
It seems the FTM angle is subject to stereotype from the outside just like MTF.
Love to see what Beverley comes back with as well!
Always love your posts .
Kind regards, Kirsten.
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Quote from: cassiebythesea on December 26, 2018, 11:15:44 PM
I'm in an even smaller group: asexual.
Since then, I've freed myself from trying to force myself into having sex. Admittedly I do find women much more attractive, but that may just be out of jealousy.
Although I don't count myself as one of them, you would be surprised how many asexual people are on this site, Cassie.
I wonder how much gender dysphoria has to do with creating an environment that fosters an asexual view of things. Just posing a question in my head here, I wonder how many transitioners see the sexual part of transition as just too much to deal with after all the other stuff they must deal with. I don't know and I'll shut up before I'm accused of distracting the thread. Ooops!
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 27, 2018, 07:30:27 AM
Although I don't count myself as one of them, you would be surprised how many asexual people are on this site, Cassie.
I wonder how much gender dysphoria has to do with creating an environment that fosters an asexual view of things. Just posing a question in my head here, I wonder how many transitioners see the sexual part of transition as just too much to deal with after all the other stuff they must deal with. I don't know and I'll shut up before I'm accused of distracting the thread. Ooops!
I don't really know if my asexuality (but definitely lesbian leaning) has anything to do with dysphoria or not? I think it started initially with me being still deeply in love with my ex, and I felt as if I would be cheating on this love, if I would sexually engage with another person. This could have been a self declared celebrate situation?
Later the decrease of testosterone in my body may have supported this, but now it could be based of some kind of dysphoria. My penis has shrunk that much that I would not know what I would do with it in any sexual encounter, and this causes me to avoid those situations as much as possible. So, yes, one could call that to be one kind of dysphoria.
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 27, 2018, 07:30:27 AM
I wonder how many transitioners see the sexual part of transition as just too much to deal with after all the other stuff they must deal with. I don't know and I'll shut up before I'm accused of distracting the thread. Ooops!
I think this is a very astute question, Moni. I took the liberty of creating a separate thread to discuss it. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,243623.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,243623.0.html)
Quote from: Kylo on December 27, 2018, 04:57:19 AM
When I first mentioned transition to my father one of the first things he said was to ask if I was attracted to women. As if it was the obvious thing to assume. Other people have assumed the same as well - apparently a transman is commonly expected to be a straight man, like most of the rest.
Interesting.
I'm - practically speaking - attracted to men, so I suppose that makes me unusual, even though technically I would be bisexual in terms of what potentially is sexually attractive. It's curious how perceptions of trans people's attraction already exists out there even where people know next to nothing about the condition. If they accept you as the gender you say, then the general idea is that you're going to act and behave like the average member of that gender. I found this a bit weird, since the implication would then be that I spent 16 years in long-term relationships with people I'm not attracted to... for some reason. They seemed to forget all about that.
As another FTM man, I too find it weird that it is assumed that I'd "suddenly like women" by cis people.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I am in a long-term relationship with my (possibly never transitioning FTM) male partner, and have been for over four years now. Even though I find female bodies aesthetically pleasing at times to look at, it is cis males that I have always been sexually attracted to. Actually, it took me months to get used to the man that I love having a female body, and during that time, our intimacy was almost at a standstill. It was an honest case of "Its me, not you."
We both still find men sexually attractive to look at, but I now am also more aware of exactly
why a female body would be also seen as attractive, something I wasn't really aware of until I started transitioning.
Unusual for me, I now can see the beauty in "fluffy" female bodies, something I also discovered after transitioning. This is still something I am still thinking about, but the roundness of the female form, accentuated by extra pounds makes it even more pleasing in my eyes. This is something that I never understood before transitioning.
Ryuichi
When I saw my doctor yesterday he asked about my sexuality. He's a lovely gentleman and asked in the nicest way so I didn't feel offended, but I kind of thought it was a little funny, and showed how little people really understand gender.
It seems to be such a diverse experience for each person. In the past I've always been with women, but more recently have realised that a big part of that experience was about me trying to run away from my own identity and hide in a relationship.
Having just started on hormones again I'm not thinking too much about who I want to cuddle up with, and kind of expect desire in that area might change & develop as I do. The idea of being with a woman in the future just doesn't feel right, and I really like the idea of being with a man, and have a bunch of dreams in that area, but I also know that at my age and stage most of those dreams may be pretty unrealistic. Dreams are still free though, and who knows what might happen. I feel comfortable noticing men a lot more these days. A muscly torso makes my heart leap and feel weak in the knees :). I think for now I'll vote in the 'like's men' group. :)
Thanks, ladies! I love you! As a female, I've always been attracted to boys, men. I married a female to "cure" myself, but that didn't work. I currently date men.
Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 27, 2018, 09:43:09 PM
Thanks, ladies! I love you! As a female, I've always been attracted to boys, men. I married a female to "cure" myself, but that didn't work. I currently date men.
Hi Beverly,
What is it about the male species that creates the magic?
Regards, Kirsten.
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Not Beverly so I hope that I am not speaking out of turn.
Speaking for myself, it is everything. The smell of them, the strength, the way they feel inside of me, on top of me. More important, they are everything I am not. I don't understand men, not even a little, I do love how they make me feel when I am with them. Their desire takes me over the edge but their vulnerability makes me twist inside, the two together can be intoxicating.
Women never surprise me, men constantly do.
What is my sexual orientation? All of those years I thought that I was gay, I don't know, am I straight now? I do know it has always been men. I hate the quiet but love when they talk. I hate the macho but love when they open up and show who they really are. I never want to hear of the attempts to fix the dishwasher, ugh!, but I would die for how they curl up behind me and breathe into my ear as they are falling asleep how much they they love me.
Ever spend a truly crappy day with a man who has been trying to fix it since the beginning but the crappy day is stronger than his resolve? It is magnificent! When you are getting ready for bed and he is apologizing for how bad it was, all you can feel is how hard he tried and the world melts away.
I am probably not normal, but I love the half bro fest, half confusion of men. It is not that I dislike women or anything, men are just everything that makes my life better.
Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on December 27, 2018, 09:59:09 PM
Hi Beverly,
What is it about the male species that creates the magic?
Regards, Kirsten.
I had zero attraction to men pre transition - not hidden - in denial - just completely none. But here is the weird part I fantasized about having sex with a man as a woman. I could not figure that out for a long time. Men did not interest me and the thought of interacting sexually with them turned my stomach to be blunt.
What I realized recently by reading a lengthy explanation elsewhere is that I did not want to have sex with a man in a body that felt wrong. Having sex with a woman in a male body seemed fine - I would just fantasize that the roles were reversed.
Someone I know wrote the following - "the man desires the woman but the woman desires to be desired by the man".
That made a lot of sense to me. I am still more attracted to women than men probably for multiple reasons - my only experience is with women - and my body is not as feminine as I wish it was.
But my attraction orientation is shifting. I have been on estrogen since July 2017 - people told me that once I was on it I would become more interested in men. I thought that was ridiculous - why would a change in hormones change who I am attracted to. Well I had an orchiectomy also in July 2017 so I am only running on estrogen - the T is gone.
Is that part of the reason that my attraction orientation is shifting? IDK. May be just feeling more female.
But I get it that the majority of transwomen are still for the most part attracted to women. In the past on a scale if the number one was being attracted to men and women was a 10 then I was definitely a 10. Today I would say I am a 7 or 8. Will I ever have sex with a man or even kiss one? IDK But then again I never thought I would transition so who knows?
I am still trying to look into me, why I feel that I am attracted to women only that is!
I have to consider that I was, to a very large extend, female all my life (biologically, not mentally that much), and that the only "real" male indicator of my body are my genitals (of which somebody decided look better on me than female ones), I basically was more or less a lesbian all my life. I never was interested the least bit in any physical encounter with a male, that went further than shaking hands!
Here I am now, trying to finally shed those stupid male genitals, and for sure do not want them back inside my body. My orientation was always toward females, I think that males are not very attractive, and that penises look pretty ugly (when erected), or pathetic (when not).
I do not believe that any estrogen or surgery will change my sexual orientation, many decades did not do this, a few pills and some cutting (to make me the way I used to be), will not do it either.
I think it is very good that the human sexuality is spread over such a wide range of feelings, this makes us different again from the animal world who use sex only for multiplying the specis
I remember around 12 or 13 I tried envisioning being with a female and honestly for me I always thought, why? In my head I could be the female myself so I wasn't interested in having one as a girlfriend.
I was a bit delusional thinking guys saw me as a girl, or at least feminine enough. I kept "clean cut" enough and guys in my school were already questioning their sexuality a bit at that time. I wasn't invisible to them, but sadly they never tried asking me out either...
Now that I think about it I did really like guys seeing me as a girl... Since transitioning, I think I'm closer to getting male attention as a girl than ever before.
Interestingly enough as I started getting older (began hrt at 27) I became hyper aware and sensitive when people naturally started gendering me male and man more and more.
Anyway, I always liked guys and I don't know why but I'm not complaining.
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Michelle, what a well expressed explanation. Makes me think of things that I had not before. Thanks Babes, lol!
Kim, your quote gave words to something that I think I knew somewhere in this empty head of mine. lol
"Someone I know wrote the following - "the man desires the woman but the woman desires to be desired by the man"."
It may not apply to every woman, but to a lot of us.
Beverly Anne, thanks for starting this thread.
Ryuichi, one day I will learn to spell your name. lol I have stopped being surprised at how little cis people know about us. Fortunately, thanks to breeding programs carried out by scientists, the trans population is increasing. There is some thought that they may start releasing us out into the wild. A group once thought to be near extinction may one day be seen back on the prairie and not just in drag clubs and the occasional siting as the butt of a joke on situation comedies.
Of course, the repopulation program will only be successful if they can be somewhat isolated as it is well known that close proximity and acceptance may cause moral corruption.
I will now go and try to extract my tongue which is firmly nestled in my cheek.
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 28, 2018, 10:18:36 AM
Michelle, what a well expressed explanation. Makes me think of things that I had not before. Thanks Babes, lol!
Kim, your quote gave words to something that I think I knew somewhere in this empty head of mine. lol
"Someone I know wrote the following - "the man desires the woman but the woman desires to be desired by the man"."
It may not apply to every woman, but to a lot of us.
Beverly Anne, thanks for starting this thread.
Ryuichi, one day I will learn to spell your name. lol I have stopped being surprised at how little cis people know about us. Fortunately, thanks to breeding programs carried out by scientists, the trans population is increasing. There is some thought that they may start releasing us out into the wild. A group once thought to be near extinction may one day be seen back on the prairie and not just in drag clubs and the occasional siting as the butt of a joke on situation comedies.
Of course, the repopulation program will only be successful if they can be somewhat isolated as it is well known that close proximity and acceptance may cause moral corruption.
I will now go and try to extract my tongue which is firmly nestled in my cheek.
Moni
;D :icon_hug:
I've had quite a journey figuring out my sexuality... and my gender. They were both damaged/complicated, and for basically the same reasons.
Short answer: I'm only into women, which makes me a lesbian.
However when I say that it's a slight simplification that is probably not gonna be popular here. Hence why I hesitate. I'll try to explain it as kindly as I can. It appears my sexual attraction only goes to other bio females. And that although there's a strong preference for cis women, on very rare occasion I do get attracted to trans men too. I'm sorry, but it doesn't make me bisexual or actually into men in general, because my attraction goes to sex, not gender. Trans guys simply slip into my radar occasionally because of their physical reality. I'll most likely only date cis women regardless (cause of other reasons), cause that's to whom 99% or more of my attraction goes, which is why I simplify my answer to those +99% in this particular post. Had it been my word choice I would have said females or afabs. My clumsy labeling is only meant for me to be true to myself over being kind to people I do not even intend to date. I do struggle to explain my newly discovered sexuality in ways that won't make it seem like I'm a total bigot, while also not stepping over myself to please others. It is my observation that I'm very exclusively homosexual and that can often to some degree slip into unpopular territory when it comes to trans people. I do try to be sensitive. And I don't want drama. But anyhow, let's move on.
It's been a very intense year in those two departments, gender and sexuality for me. As much as it has shocked me, I started this year thinking I was a gay trans man and I'm ending this year knowing I'm a lesbian cis woman.
My lesbian discovery was very recent and I'm still not sure if I can quite comprehend it. My past traumas that I left unprocessed for most of my life have really knocked me around, and since digging into them and sorting them out, I've been hit with one shocking realisation after the other, as I'm finally starting to put the pieces together and get somewhat of a full picture of myself. It's quite amazing to "see" myself getting put together like a puzzle and the clarity it brings.
All my life I simply assumed and took for granted that I was into men, and didn't even think to question it. But I kept questioning my attraction to women, over and over. I kept unsuccessfully suppressing my attraction to women, which made me switch between calling myself bi and gay as a trans man. In detransition however, I quite quickly started accepting and being fine with that I like other women, but struggled to accept myself as bisexual.
I was right to be skeptical about my presumed bisexuality, but I should have looked into and questioned both those attractions, and compared them more closely. Cause as soon as I did, a very clear pattern revealed itself and I didn't even need to go through everything until I realised that... no, I've never actually been into men, only women.
Considering I've only been in relationships with men, been sexually assaulted by men, lost my virginity by rape by a man, and spent the past 13 years trying to repeat those traumas with self-harming sex with men despite never actually having been into them (there were definitely signs of my lack of attraction all along, I just didn't get it)... eventually I just hit my breaking point and I got instantly repulsed by the thought of being sexual with any man.
And I'm being plagued by really nasty intrusive thoughts about men that are really just... flickering images and feelings of random men abusing me in various sexual ways. Very disturbing and upsetting, and it's every day. It feels like I unkowingly traumatised myself further through all those years (my entire adult life, from loss of virginity to a few months ago) and it finally caught up with me. I guess it's just hard to come to terms with.
However there is a strong positive side to this as well, which is I no longer have any wish to harm myself with sex, or with men, but rather only want to heal my damaged sexuality and start from scratch with it, but with women instead. I don't regret having "tried" it with men, as I'm sure that's a valuable experience to have, but I do kinda wish I had listened to myself sooner.
Also I'm fine with being a lesbian, like that's alright and I don't fight it at all. I really like it cause it feels like a long lost part of me that I've finally found and brought to my heart. It's hard for me to understand how it could have all gone so bad and how I can possibly repair all this damage, but my lesbianism in itself I can only think of as beautiful and good for me.
But I digress. Back on topic:
Since the gender/sex categories I belong to are detransitioners and women... I have noticed that most detrans women are lesbians, however as trans men they were (most of them) very masculine and seeing themselves as straight, and then in detransition reclaimed their butch lesbian identities. In a very over-generalising way, of course. If there is a common way to detransition as a bio female, my observations tell me it's most likely that. During earlier times, it was far less accepted to be gay or bi (and feminine) as a trans man, which perhaps kept more of them in the closet one way or another. That is of course related to how it then most commonly turns out for detrans women, as they come from having lived as and been seen as trans men.
My experience very much differs from what I can conclude might maybe be the "generic detrans woman" narrative. Most prominently I differ because I have "reverse" dysphoria (medically induced instead of the neurological kind, and previously used to have the trauma-induced dysmorphia kind; and it seems common that detrans women in general have some kind of dysphoria targetting their natal parts), but with my sexuality specifically I differ because I'm a femme and not butch, and I differ because I lived as a gay/bi man in my transition and didn't know about my lesbianism until after having begun to detransition.
And as a person in general I'd say my story became very overly complicated, as I went from thinking I was bisexual female to bisexual male, then back and forth between gay and bi male, then to straight female, to bisexual female, to homosexual female. That was quite a ride, I'm exhausted.
Quote from: Kylo on December 27, 2018, 04:57:19 AM
When I first mentioned transition to my father one of the first things he said was to ask if I was attracted to women. As if it was the obvious thing to assume. Other people have assumed the same as well - apparently a transman is commonly expected to be a straight man, like most of the rest.
Interesting.
I'm - practically speaking - attracted to men, so I suppose that makes me unusual, even though technically I would be bisexual in terms of what potentially is sexually attractive. It's curious how perceptions of trans people's attraction already exists out there even where people know next to nothing about the condition. If they accept you as the gender you say, then the general idea is that you're going to act and behave like the average member of that gender. I found this a bit weird, since the implication would then be that I spent 16 years in long-term relationships with people I'm not attracted to... for some reason. They seemed to forget all about that.
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on December 27, 2018, 01:21:47 PM
As another FTM man, I too find it weird that it is assumed that I'd "suddenly like women" by cis people.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I am in a long-term relationship with my (possibly never transitioning FTM) male partner, and have been for over four years now. Even though I find female bodies aesthetically pleasing at times to look at, it is cis males that I have always been sexually attracted to. Actually, it took me months to get used to the man that I love having a female body, and during that time, our intimacy was almost at a standstill. It was an honest case of "Its me, not you."
We both still find men sexually attractive to look at, but I now am also more aware of exactly why a female body would be also seen as attractive, something I wasn't really aware of until I started transitioning.
Unusual for me, I now can see the beauty in "fluffy" female bodies, something I also discovered after transitioning. This is still something I am still thinking about, but the roundness of the female form, accentuated by extra pounds makes it even more pleasing in my eyes. This is something that I never understood before transitioning.
Ryuichi
I got the MTF version of this. Still one of my wife's fears that I will want to be with a man.
No I don't, It's ladies only for this girl.
If anything, I'm more sure of that now and
I still have no idea what it is that makes ony guy more attractive than another.
Societal norms being what they were growing up when I did, I sometimes wonder that if I were attracted to men, would I have figured out that I was trans earlier than I did?
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Quote from: TonyaW on December 29, 2018, 08:51:19 AM
Societal norms being what they were growing up when I did, I sometimes wonder that if I were attracted to men, would I have figured out that I was trans earlier than I did?
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I think that you would have thought you were Bi or gay. At least that is what I would have. Bi and gay were orientations that were known to me (not practically, but theoretically).
I had never even heard of trans or intersex several years back! If I would have known 16 years ago that I would be intersex and trans on top, I would probably have reacted differently than I did, and could have saved my marriage!
Quote from: Dietlind on December 29, 2018, 09:26:03 AM
I think that you would have thought you were Bi or gay. At least that is what I would have. Bi and gay were orientations that were known to me (not practically, but theoretically).
I had never even heard of trans or intersex several years back! If I would have known 16 years ago that I would be intersex and trans on top, I would probably have reacted differently than I did, and could have saved my marriage!
I did not think I was bi or gay. But I've always wanted to be a girl. My thinking on that is that had I been attracted to men, along with my desire to be female, I may have made the trans discovery earlier in my life.
We know of course that gender and sexuality are different things, but at the time I grew up there wasn't much information out there about such things.
I'm guessing all this would have led me to explore if I was actually trans well before I figured it out.
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Quote from: TonyaW on December 29, 2018, 03:38:21 PM
We know of course that gender and sexuality are different things, but at the time I grew up there wasn't much information out there about such things.
Agreed, different, not always totally independent though.
Quote from: SeptagonScars on December 29, 2018, 06:32:10 AM
I've had quite a journey figuring out my sexuality... and my gender. They were both damaged/complicated, and for basically the same reasons.
Short answer: I'm only into women, which makes me a lesbian.
However when I say that it's a slight simplification that is probably not gonna be popular here. Hence why I hesitate. I'll try to explain it as kindly as I can. It appears my sexual attraction only goes to other bio females. And that although there's a strong preference for cis women, on very rare occasion I do get attracted to trans men too. I'm sorry, but it doesn't make me bisexual or actually into men in general, because my attraction goes to sex, not gender. Trans guys simply slip into my radar occasionally because of their physical reality. I'll most likely only date cis women regardless (cause of other reasons), cause that's to whom 99% or more of my attraction goes, which is why I simplify my answer to those +99% in this particular post. Had it been my word choice I would have said females or afabs. My clumsy labeling is only meant for me to be true to myself over being kind to people I do not even intend to date. I do struggle to explain my newly discovered sexuality in ways that won't make it seem like I'm a total bigot, while also not stepping over myself to please others. It is my observation that I'm very exclusively homosexual and that can often to some degree slip into unpopular territory when it comes to trans people. I do try to be sensitive. And I don't want drama. But anyhow, let's move on.
It's been a very intense year in those two departments, gender and sexuality for me. As much as it has shocked me, I started this year thinking I was a gay trans man and I'm ending this year knowing I'm a lesbian cis woman.
My lesbian discovery was very recent and I'm still not sure if I can quite comprehend it. My past traumas that I left unprocessed for most of my life have really knocked me around, and since digging into them and sorting them out, I've been hit with one shocking realisation after the other, as I'm finally starting to put the pieces together and get somewhat of a full picture of myself. It's quite amazing to "see" myself getting put together like a puzzle and the clarity it brings.
All my life I simply assumed and took for granted that I was into men, and didn't even think to question it. But I kept questioning my attraction to women, over and over. I kept unsuccessfully suppressing my attraction to women, which made me switch between calling myself bi and gay as a trans man. In detransition however, I quite quickly started accepting and being fine with that I like other women, but struggled to accept myself as bisexual.
I was right to be skeptical about my presumed bisexuality, but I should have looked into and questioned both those attractions, and compared them more closely. Cause as soon as I did, a very clear pattern revealed itself and I didn't even need to go through everything until I realised that... no, I've never actually been into men, only women.
Considering I've only been in relationships with men, been sexually assaulted by men, lost my virginity by rape by a man, and spent the past 13 years trying to repeat those traumas with self-harming sex with men despite never actually having been into them (there were definitely signs of my lack of attraction all along, I just didn't get it)... eventually I just hit my breaking point and I got instantly repulsed by the thought of being sexual with any man.
And I'm being plagued by really nasty intrusive thoughts about men that are really just... flickering images and feelings of random men abusing me in various sexual ways. Very disturbing and upsetting, and it's every day. It feels like I unkowingly traumatised myself further through all those years (my entire adult life, from loss of virginity to a few months ago) and it finally caught up with me. I guess it's just hard to come to terms with.
However there is a strong positive side to this as well, which is I no longer have any wish to harm myself with sex, or with men, but rather only want to heal my damaged sexuality and start from scratch with it, but with women instead. I don't regret having "tried" it with men, as I'm sure that's a valuable experience to have, but I do kinda wish I had listened to myself sooner.
Also I'm fine with being a lesbian, like that's alright and I don't fight it at all. I really like it cause it feels like a long lost part of me that I've finally found and brought to my heart. It's hard for me to understand how it could have all gone so bad and how I can possibly repair all this damage, but my lesbianism in itself I can only think of as beautiful and good for me.
But I digress. Back on topic:
Since the gender/sex categories I belong to are detransitioners and women... I have noticed that most detrans women are lesbians, however as trans men they were (most of them) very masculine and seeing themselves as straight, and then in detransition reclaimed their butch lesbian identities. In a very over-generalising way, of course. If there is a common way to detransition as a bio female, my observations tell me it's most likely that. During earlier times, it was far less accepted to be gay or bi (and feminine) as a trans man, which perhaps kept more of them in the closet one way or another. That is of course related to how it then most commonly turns out for detrans women, as they come from having lived as and been seen as trans men.
My experience very much differs from what I can conclude might maybe be the "generic detrans woman" narrative. Most prominently I differ because I have "reverse" dysphoria (medically induced instead of the neurological kind, and previously used to have the trauma-induced dysmorphia kind; and it seems common that detrans women in general have some kind of dysphoria targetting their natal parts), but with my sexuality specifically I differ because I'm a femme and not butch, and I differ because I lived as a gay/bi man in my transition and didn't know about my lesbianism until after having begun to detransition.
And as a person in general I'd say my story became very overly complicated, as I went from thinking I was bisexual female to bisexual male, then back and forth between gay and bi male, then to straight female, to bisexual female, to homosexual female. That was quite a ride, I'm exhausted.
Very fascinating story Laura!. I sometimes feel traumatised and exhausted reading your narrative.
My heart goes out to you. I am so glad you are getting to the bottom of of things. Wishing you resolution & peace as you go.
It seems maturity and core strength is coming to play these days.
Kindest regards, Kirsten.
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on December 29, 2018, 04:36:46 PM
Very fascinating story Laura!. I sometimes feel traumatised and exhausted reading your narrative.
My heart goes out to you. I am so glad you are getting to the bottom of of things. Wishing you resolution & peace as you go.
It seems maturity and core strength is coming to play these days.
Kindest regards, Kirsten.
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Thank you! Sorry to traumatise and exhaust you with my messy life stories ;) That gave me a good laugh though, cause it reminded me of how unbelievably tragic my life has been and for whatever reason that made me laugh.
I feel very relieved at how much I've managed to scrape up from the bottom of things and how many treasures have been hidden under my trauma-damage. And being able to connect to myself in really beautiful ways. It makes me feel like it's... almost kinda worth all the pain? I dunno, maybe a little too soon to say that with certainty.
I think you're right about that. At least I feel a lot of inner strength that keeps building up. And I keep being almost kinda revered like a guru in spaces I post about my discoveries, insights, journeys in life, etc. I dunno how to feel about that kind of very strong positive response. Like I don't feel worthy or I don't quite understand. Wherever I'm heading in life, I sense it's something big.
Love it . I think your offerings educate FTM& MTF alike even when responses dont come back with replies.
I bet you have already helped many with your interactions & humble advice you have passed on and that feels good for you too.
Kindest regards, Kirsten.
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I used to be attracted to females and have flings with guys but now I realised that I am so way more attracted to guys it is insane the switch for me. But it is certain types of guys, but the is one female that still has my heart and I will always have it.
Quote from: TonyaW on December 29, 2018, 03:38:21 PM
I did not think I was bi or gay. But I've always wanted to be a girl. My thinking on that is that had I been attracted to men, along with my desire to be female, I may have made the trans discovery earlier in my life.
We know of course that gender and sexuality are different things, but at the time I grew up there wasn't much information out there about such things.
I'm guessing all this would have led me to explore if I was actually trans well before I figured it out.
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Do you mean by explore, trying different experiences including being with a male.?
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Quote from: TonyaW on December 29, 2018, 03:38:21 PM
I did not think I was bi or gay. But I've always wanted to be a girl. My thinking on that is that had I been attracted to men, along with my desire to be female, I may have made the trans discovery earlier in my life.
We know of course that gender and sexuality are different things, but at the time I grew up there wasn't much information out there about such things.
I'm guessing all this would have led me to explore if I was actually trans well before I figured it out.
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"Led you to explore" I'm assuming that means with a male.
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Quote from: TonyaW on December 29, 2018, 03:38:21 PM
I did not think I was bi or gay. But I've always wanted to be a girl. My thinking on that is that had I been attracted to men, along with my desire to be female, I may have made the trans discovery earlier in my life.
We know of course that gender and sexuality are different things, but at the time I grew up there wasn't much information out there about such things.
I'm guessing all this would have led me to explore if I was actually trans well before I figured it out.
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Quote from: Mary1 on December 30, 2018, 10:44:57 PM
Do you mean by explore, trying different experiences including being with a male.?
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Quote from: Mary1 on December 30, 2018, 10:48:19 PM
"Led you to explore" I'm assuming that means with a male.
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Not what I said at all.
IF I had been attracted to men, then that may led me to explore WHETHER OR NOT I WAS TRANS earlier than I did.
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on December 30, 2018, 05:50:54 AM
Love it . I think your offerings educate FTM& MTF alike even when responses dont come back with replies.
I bet you have already helped many with your interactions & humble advice you have passed on and that feels good for you too.
Kindest regards, Kirsten.
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Thank you. Yes, many have expressed gratitude to things I've said to them, advice, guidance, and just my general thoughts. It has been rewarding for me, but also overwhelming.
"However when I say that it's a slight simplification that is probably not gonna be popular here. Hence why I hesitate. I'll try to explain it as kindly as I can. It appears my sexual attraction only goes to other bio females. And that although there's a strong preference for cis women, on very rare occasion I do get attracted to trans men too. I'm sorry, but it doesn't make me bisexual or actually into men in general, because my attraction goes to sex, not gender. Trans guys simply slip into my radar occasionally because of their physical reality. I'll most likely only date cis women regardless (cause of other reasons), cause that's to whom 99% or more of my attraction goes, which is why I simplify my answer to those +99% in this particular post. Had it been my word choice I would have said females or afabs. My clumsy labeling is only meant for me to be true to myself over being kind to people I do not even intend to date. I do struggle to explain my newly discovered sexuality in ways that won't make it seem like I'm a total bigot, while also not stepping over myself to please others. It is my observation that I'm very exclusively homosexual and that can often to some degree slip into unpopular territory when it comes to trans people. I do try to be sensitive. And I don't want drama. But anyhow, let's move on." Quote from SeptagonScars
I can't say I can relate to your journey. You have been through quite a bit and I hope you have found what is good for you now. I will say, if you don't have interest in trans women, that is your particular preference. No one should judge you for any preference you have. As a trans woman, I certainly don't see that as a problem.
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 31, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
"However when I say that it's a slight simplification that is probably not gonna be popular here. Hence why I hesitate. I'll try to explain it as kindly as I can. It appears my sexual attraction only goes to other bio females. And that although there's a strong preference for cis women, on very rare occasion I do get attracted to trans men too. I'm sorry, but it doesn't make me bisexual or actually into men in general, because my attraction goes to sex, not gender. Trans guys simply slip into my radar occasionally because of their physical reality. I'll most likely only date cis women regardless (cause of other reasons), cause that's to whom 99% or more of my attraction goes, which is why I simplify my answer to those +99% in this particular post. Had it been my word choice I would have said females or afabs. My clumsy labeling is only meant for me to be true to myself over being kind to people I do not even intend to date. I do struggle to explain my newly discovered sexuality in ways that won't make it seem like I'm a total bigot, while also not stepping over myself to please others. It is my observation that I'm very exclusively homosexual and that can often to some degree slip into unpopular territory when it comes to trans people. I do try to be sensitive. And I don't want drama. But anyhow, let's move on." Quote from SeptagonScars
I can't say I can relate to your journey. You have been through quite a bit and I hope you have found what is good for you now. I will say, if you don't have interest in trans women, that is your particular preference. No one should judge you for any preference you have. As a trans woman, I certainly don't see that as a problem.
That is an interesting point you make Moni. My defult attraction is to CIS women as well. The trouble being that the attraction, admiration & high regard for these people goes hand in hand with wanting to be like them. I love to be with women & also want to BE them.
With transwomen I like them & love interacting but find they are too similar to me to be a love interest.
Transmen I find are very much like me but also quite different as well. I find that dynamic attractive. I have said before if I hadnt found my CIS wife I would have gladly settled with a transman.
The other funny side of this you may have found is that transitioning on HRT and allowing ones feminine personality to show starts to get attention from men. Once upon a time I would happily threaten physical violence if a man tried anything. Now I just feel uncomfortable or repulsed( I must be a bigot ha ha). Even so I let any interest run its natural course in that Im not interested and they soon lose interest as well. Hopefully an understanding that we can be mates(friends).
Yours truly, Kirsten.
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I've written a bit about Shifts In Gender Orientation (https://michellepaquette.blogspot.com/2018/12/shifts-in-gender-orientation.html) before.
I believe my shift in orientation, fundamentally becoming open to a larger range of partners, was due to my recognizing and breaking down social taboos on orientation.
Our gender orientation, sexual and romantic, is built in layers. There is a biological primitive, a bit of our brains wired to recognize other people as possible mates or competitors. This sets the core of our sexual orientation. We see others and this bit of our brain identifies those who might be possible mates or sexual partners, based on what can be perceived. It tends to be a pretty broad sort of classification filter, and there are correlations such that it appears to be set in fetal development during the third trimester by the testosterone level the developing brain is exposed to.
In my case, the filter seems to favor femme appearance as a possible mate.
Our culture insists on certain behaviors as being acceptable. Since this body was assigned male at birth, this culture had insisted that while growing up and presenting as male, that I only select persons with a strongly femme appearance as a potential mate. That more or less matches my brain's setting, so that was OK. I accepted the cultural conditioning and assumed that was just how I was.
Ah, but then I came to accept my true nature, and violated cultural taboo by coming out and transitioning. It turns out that breaking one taboo and surviving makes it easier to break other taboos.
Post-transition I, as a woman attracted to women, identified my orientation as a lesbian.
I was in a transgender person support group meeting, and sitting next to me was a man, with a lovely red-orange beard and reddish leg hair. They were very kind and open, and I liked them. In fact, I found myself fantasizing about them. Now, where was THIS coming from?
After discussion with some very good sexuality specialists, I realized that the people I am attracted to have not actually identified their genitalia to me, and that the women I did attractive are actually just a subset of persons with some strongly feminine aspects that I admire. That is I am attracted to persons with some strongly femme attribute to their presentation, and not to some particular set of genitalia. This includes women (cis or trans), and some trans men.
I rather flippantly describe my orientation now as lesbian with a 30% chance of queer.
I share more experience and understanding with trans women than any other group, and this may aid in finding a basis for mutual respect and emotional bonding. As a demisexual person, I need that emotional connection before sexuality even enters the picture. I've never had a cisgender woman or trans man try to romance me, so there really hasn't been any sexuality tested in those directions.
Thanks Kirsten, I like to read your posts. I find that you are very intelligent with a good heart. I will admit to be a bit lazy here to not go back to give proper credit for the following comment, but it had an impact on me. It had to do with women wanting to be desired. Sorry I am tired and waiting for the damn ball to drop. It struck me because I thought about my life. For most of my life I wanted to be desired by women. There was no effort involved, I simply wanted them to find me attractive. That reality is no longer my reality. It distresses me greatly. I now want to be desired by men. It blows my mind that a change like this can happen. A good friend of mine asked if this is a dragon in my life that needs to be slain. I don't know. It is a surprising reality that seems to have slapped me right in the face. I see person after person easily state what their attraction is. People seem pretty proud of their orientation and that's good. For me, this is a big surprising struggle. Other people are involved. It is not simple. I have no more control over it than I had being trans. It's funny that in my head I never logically felt much guilt for being trans. Emotionally yes I did but logically I knew it was not in my control. That struggle was at least internal to me. This is kicking my butt. Yeah, the ball has dropped and it ain't midnight yet.
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 31, 2018, 10:46:06 PM
Thanks Kirsten, I like to read your posts. I find that you are very intelligent with a good heart. I will admit to be a bit lazy here to not go back to give proper credit for the following comment, but it had an impact on me. It had to do with women wanting to be desired. Sorry I am tired and waiting for the damn ball to drop. It struck me because I thought about my life. For most of my life I wanted to be desired by women. There was no effort involved, I simply wanted them to find me attractive. That reality is no longer my reality. It distresses me greatly. I now want to be desired by men. It blows my mind that a change like this can happen. A good friend of mine asked if this is a dragon in my life that needs to be slain. I don't know. It is a surprising reality that seems to have slapped me right in the face. I see person after person easily state what their attraction is. People seem pretty proud of their orientation and that's good. For me, this is a big surprising struggle. Other people are involved. It is not simple. I have no more control over it than I had being trans. It's funny that in my head I never logically felt much guilt for being trans. Emotionally yes I did but logically I knew it was not in my control. That struggle was at least internal to me. This is kicking my butt. Yeah, the ball has dropped and it ain't midnight yet.
Love it. As we become more feminine appearing in transition we feel euphoria and relief from having a misaligned gender. We like what we see in the mirror more than we used to.
The flipside of this is we are actually making ourselves more alluring than what we once were. Making ourselves more womanly & fixing our hair & makeup is bound to cause us to become the pursued instead of the pursuer. I never wanted to attract men & now I think about it - it does my head in! Thanks for mentioning it Moni(ha ha ). From now on no more dresses and makeup for me - its into the butch dyke look with boiler makers overalls so I can attract girls!
Kirsten x.
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Quote from: CindyLouFromCO on December 26, 2018, 10:08:25 PM
I feel the same as you. I like guys. However I do think women are pretty. One thing I learned after transitioning is the sisterhood in compliments about our beautiful selfs. All women are beautiful in their own way.
We check each other out too. You learn to use mirrors and when to look and not.
Guys are cute, hot and sexy. At least to me 🙂
Yes, Cindy! I'm with you.
Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on December 27, 2018, 09:59:09 PM
Hi Beverly,
What is it about the male species that creates the magic?
Regards, Kirsten.
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Hey, Kirsten! I can't put my finger on what attracts me to men. I'm physically attracted to women, too, and I've dated attractive lesbian women, but this left me flat sexually and otherwise. For me, there's nothing like being appreciated by a good looking man for my feminine qualities. I like a manly guy who takes care of himself and is secure enough to be with a trans woman. They're hard to find though. I'm lucky to have a boyfriend who isn't attracted to me just because I'm "trans." In other words, a
>-bleeped-<. Dating as a trans woman is challenging to say the least.
Quote from: IAmM on December 28, 2018, 12:00:13 AM
Not Beverly so I hope that I am not speaking out of turn.
Speaking for myself, it is everything. The smell of them, the strength, the way they feel inside of me, on top of me. More important, they are everything I am not. I don't understand men, not even a little, I do love how they make me feel when I am with them. Their desire takes me over the edge but their vulnerability makes me twist inside, the two together can be intoxicating.
Women never surprise me, men constantly do.
What is my sexual orientation? All of those years I thought that I was gay, I don't know, am I straight now? I do know it has always been men. I hate the quiet but love when they talk. I hate the macho but love when they open up and show who they really are. I never want to hear of the attempts to fix the dishwasher, ugh!, but I would die for how they curl up behind me and breathe into my ear as they are falling asleep how much they they love me.
Ever spend a truly crappy day with a man who has been trying to fix it since the beginning but the crappy day is stronger than his resolve? It is magnificent! When you are getting ready for bed and he is apologizing for how bad it was, all you can feel is how hard he tried and the world melts away.
I am probably not normal, but I love the half bro fest, half confusion of men. It is not that I dislike women or anything, men are just everything that makes my life better.
I totally LOVE your response! You go girl!
Quote from: anna.changing on December 27, 2018, 04:08:53 PM
When I saw my doctor yesterday he asked about my sexuality. He's a lovely gentleman and asked in the nicest way so I didn't feel offended, but I kind of thought it was a little funny, and showed how little people really understand gender.
It seems to be such a diverse experience for each person. In the past I've always been with women, but more recently have realised that a big part of that experience was about me trying to run away from my own identity and hide in a relationship.
Having just started on hormones again I'm not thinking too much about who I want to cuddle up with, and kind of expect desire in that area might change & develop as I do. The idea of being with a woman in the future just doesn't feel right, and I really like the idea of being with a man, and have a bunch of dreams in that area, but I also know that at my age and stage most of those dreams may be pretty unrealistic. Dreams are still free though, and who knows what might happen. I feel comfortable noticing men a lot more these days. A muscly torso makes my heart leap and feel weak in the knees :). I think for now I'll vote in the 'like's men' group. :)
Yes! Those men who accept us are out there. I'm dating one. His previous relationships have been with cis women, but he says it's the person, not the identity. Whatever. I don't care. I'm enjoying it. Good luck, sister!
Quote from: HappyMoni on December 31, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
I can't say I can relate to your journey. You have been through quite a bit and I hope you have found what is good for you now. I will say, if you don't have interest in trans women, that is your particular preference. No one should judge you for any preference you have. As a trans woman, I certainly don't see that as a problem.
I absolutely NEVER thought I would describe myself as Pansexual (oh My) I am about as vanilla a transwoman as you can get - but I have to say my sexual orientation is evolving. I had a crush on a transwoman in a group I belong to. Also I find men more attractive than I used to - haven't done anything about it - but they look better to me.
I have only had an orchie and my breast development is an A cup - I think if my body was more female I would be even more interested in guys. Not that there is anything wrong with guy on guy sex - I just don't see myself in that role. Although as my body is now I might feel some conflict having sex with a woman too. I have been abstinent since my transition 2 1/2 years ago. YUCK.
Back to Moni's point finally - I think no one should be judgmental of anyone's sexual preferences - just as no one should judge someone's gender orientation. If a transwoman is not into someone else trans - what's the problem? You are attracted to who you are attracted to. Just don't judge.
Which is funny because I judge about a few other things that I shouldn't - I am a hypocrite LMAO ;D
Quote from: Beverly Anne on January 01, 2019, 08:54:48 PM
Hey, Kirsten! I can't put my finger on what attracts me to men. I'm physically attracted to women, too, and I've dated attractive lesbian women, but this left me flat sexually and otherwise. For me, there's nothing like being appreciated by a good looking man for my feminine qualities. I like a manly guy who takes care of himself and is secure enough to be with a trans woman. They're hard to find though. I'm lucky to have a boyfriend who isn't attracted to me just because I'm "trans." In other words, a >-bleeped-<. Dating as a trans woman is challenging to say the least.
Thank you Beverly that does shed light!
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I had an interesting conversation with my therapist yesterday on this topic. We were discussing a quote that I shared 'the desire of the man is for the woman but the desire of the woman is to be desired by the man'.
I thought about that quite a bit and it explained a lot about my past relationships with women. I told my therapist that I always acted like the girl in relationships - she said - that's because you were the girl.
So we started talking about sexual attraction and I explained that I feel that my body is still far too masculine and I couldn't imagine sex with a guy because my body doesn't fit. She told me that there is someone at the U of MN that is considering doing a study regarding body self-image and transgender women with respect to sexual desire/relationships/activity. She said it is an under-studied aspect of the transgender community and asked me if it goes anywhere would I participate. I hope it does. Another layer of peeling the onion of figuring this whole journey out.
Quote from: KimOct on January 04, 2019, 08:19:07 PM
I had an interesting conversation with my therapist yesterday on this topic. We were discussing a quote that I shared 'the desire of the man is for the woman but the desire of the woman is to be desired by the man'.
I thought about that quite a bit and it explained a lot about my past relationships with women. I told my therapist that I always acted like the girl in relationships - she said - that's because you were the girl.
So we started talking about sexual attraction and I explained that I feel that my body is still far too masculine and I couldn't imagine sex with a guy because my body doesn't fit. She told me that there is someone at the U of MN that is considering doing a study regarding body self-image and transgender women with respect to sexual desire/relationships/activity. She said it is an under-studied aspect of the transgender community and asked me if it goes anywhere would I participate. I hope it does. Another layer of peeling the onion of figuring this whole journey out.
I hope it happens and you participate. I'm attracted to both genders and date both men and women. I've learned that I enjoy the company of women more, relate to them better, but don't feel as physically attracted to them or appreciated as a more feminine woman. On the other hand, I'm more physically attracted to men, but they're idiots and don't know what a woman needs emotionally and intellectually to feel genuinely admired for more than our bodies. I know I just haven't found the right girl or guy yet. Dating as a transgender woman is the pits. The field is narrow. It's draining. It's frustrating. But, I'm not throwing in the panty hose just yet.
Quote from: KimOct on January 04, 2019, 08:19:07 PM
I had an interesting conversation with my therapist yesterday on this topic. We were discussing a quote that I shared 'the desire of the man is for the woman but the desire of the woman is to be desired by the man'.
I thought about that quite a bit and it explained a lot about my past relationships with women. I told my therapist that I always acted like the girl in relationships - she said - that's because you were the girl.
So we started talking about sexual attraction and I explained that I feel that my body is still far too masculine and I couldn't imagine sex with a guy because my body doesn't fit. She told me that there is someone at the U of MN that is considering doing a study regarding body self-image and transgender women with respect to sexual desire/relationships/activity. She said it is an under-studied aspect of the transgender community and asked me if it goes anywhere would I participate. I hope it does. Another layer of peeling the onion of figuring this whole journey out.
Participate! Their studies are well thought out and planned. I am a participant of the national lung study, which is under the supervision of the UoMN!
I am definitely participating if asked. She said the planning for the study is in its infancy but she will keep me updated.
I want to do it both for my own benefit and helping others. Could be weeks or months until something happens. I will let people know what is appropriate for me to share if it goes anywhere - I hope it does.
Quote from: KimOct on January 04, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
I am definitely participating if asked. She said the planning for the study is in its infancy but she will keep me updated.
I want to do it both for my own benefit and helping others. Could be weeks or months until something happens. I will let people know what is appropriate for me to share if it goes anywhere - I hope it does.
I very much hope so, too!
Quote from: KimOct on January 04, 2019, 08:19:07 PM
I had an interesting conversation with my therapist yesterday on this topic. We were discussing a quote that I shared 'the desire of the man is for the woman but the desire of the woman is to be desired by the man'.
I thought about that quite a bit and it explained a lot about my past relationships with women. I told my therapist that I always acted like the girl in relationships - she said - that's because you were the girl.
So we started talking about sexual attraction and I explained that I feel that my body is still far too masculine and I couldn't imagine sex with a guy because my body doesn't fit. She told me that there is someone at the U of MN that is considering doing a study regarding body self-image and transgender women with respect to sexual desire/relationships/activity. She said it is an under-studied aspect of the transgender community and asked me if it goes anywhere would I participate. I hope it does. Another layer of peeling the onion of figuring this whole journey out.
Thanks Kim. It sounds worthwhile. There is more to this story that has not been explored. I would love to participate. The 'whole story' has not been understood for so many aspects of the transgender experience, but in this area, the conventional wisdom is severely lacking compared to reality.
Quote from: KimOct on January 04, 2019, 08:19:07 PM
I had an interesting conversation with my therapist yesterday on this topic. We were discussing a quote that I shared 'the desire of the man is for the woman but the desire of the woman is to be desired by the man'.
I thought about that quite a bit and it explained a lot about my past relationships with women. I told my therapist that I always acted like the girl in relationships - she said - that's because you were the girl.
So we started talking about sexual attraction and I explained that I feel that my body is still far too masculine and I couldn't imagine sex with a guy because my body doesn't fit. She told me that there is someone at the U of MN that is considering doing a study regarding body self-image and transgender women with respect to sexual desire/relationships/activity. She said it is an under-studied aspect of the transgender community and asked me if it goes anywhere would I participate. I hope it does. Another layer of peeling the onion of figuring this whole journey out.
That sounds like a very cool study. I have always definitely wanted to be desired - totally makes sense now why I was terrible at attracting women as a man. I was way too passive.
I've always been attracted to guys only.
Quote from: Julia1996 on January 05, 2019, 08:37:54 AM
I've always been attracted to guys only.
I've noticed that's the case with most transkids.
Quote from: luckygirl on January 06, 2019, 02:45:26 PM
I've noticed that's the case with most transkids.
That seems to be the case. I meet a 25 year old very pretty trans girl yesterday, and she never was interested in women. She told me she transitioned when she was 20, and before that she thought she was just simply gay.
I always wonder how my life would have been, if I would have had the chance to become a female when I was that young? But I cannot remember that I was ever interested in guys at all! I might have been a lesbian all my life long?
I fall in love with boys, sometimes a little bit to easily. :laugh:
QuoteI always wonder how my life would have been, if I would have had the chance to become a female when I was that young? But I cannot remember that I was ever interested in guys at all! I might have been a lesbian all my life long?
I have a theory that when we were young and believed we could do nothing about our situations and all we wanted was acceptance and normalcy, we knew we weren't gay and just wanted a normal relationship. That and we all wanted to be with girls and have those deep conversations with them. Our only hope was to engage in a romance with them. It got us as close as we could come to what we truly yearned for.
Quote from: luckygirl on January 06, 2019, 03:05:20 PM
I have a theory that when we were young and believed we could do nothing about our situations and all we wanted was acceptance and normalcy, we knew we weren't gay and just wanted a normal relationship. That and we all wanted to be with girls and have those deep conversations with them. Our only hope was to engage in a romance with them. It got us as close as we could come to what we truly yearned for.
This theory could be the key for our sexual orientation, who knows?
Quote from: luckygirl on January 06, 2019, 02:45:26 PM
I've noticed that's the case with most transkids.
My unverified observation is that for younger transitioners, their sexuality mirrors that of cis people as far as rates go.
For us older MTF transitioners, it seems about a third are straight, a third lesbian, and a third other (bi, asexual, etc). The only thing I don't recall is anyone that was attracted to mainly men pre transition that is now attracted to mainly women.
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Quote from: luckygirl on January 06, 2019, 03:05:20 PM
I have a theory that when we were young and believed we could do nothing about our situations and all we wanted was acceptance and normalcy, we knew we weren't gay and just wanted a normal relationship. That and we all wanted to be with girls and have those deep conversations with them. Our only hope was to engage in a romance with them. It got us as close as we could come to what we truly yearned for.
I think there is something to that. I had a lot of close platonic girlfriends. And when things did get physical in a relationship the woman always was the one that initiated the first time. Except my very first time - I started that one :D
Quote from: KimOct on January 07, 2019, 12:39:45 AM
I think there is something to that. I had a lot of close platonic girlfriends. And when things did get physical in a relationship the woman always was the one that initiated the first time. Except my very first time - I started that one :D
^--- Yup - exactly the same for me, except it was only the second girlfriend I initiated.
Quote from: sarahc on January 07, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
^--- Yup - exactly the same for me, except it was only the second girlfriend I initiated.
In the beginning, I was a little more aggressive than you ladies were, because I was supposed to be a guy, and that is what real guys do (so I was informed by my peers). Later, in my marriage, I was the more passive part, and my wife complained about this quite a bit.
I've only ever been attracted to men, their masculinity. I desire them very strongly and I have always been very masculine myself. I also interact far better with men, I more intuitively understand them. Their language is more straightforward.
It doesn't matter to me if the man is AFAB as long as he is very strongly masculine in appearance and behaviour.
I have also been the man in my relationships. I have been with a male partner for over 25 years. I work, he stayes home for the kids. I fix things, take care of the important stuff.
My Alfa male conservative therapist has often talked to me about how I emasculate my partner. My therapist also seems of the opinion that I emasculated my psychiatrist on occasion.
It would explain how happy my psychiatrist is about me transitioning. I know he was intimidated and he said that he couldn't use the usual authority influence to get me to comply with treatment.
I agree with the sentiment about difference between desiring and wanting to be desired. I'm definitely a desirer of men and masculinity.
Yes my therapist is conservative and raised in strongly Christian faith of no homosexuality or trans as am I.
It makes me very impressed with how he managed my decision to transition. First he asked if I wanted to get a wife. He clearly found that hard to believe because he knew my attraction to men. Then he said he was going to read up on this.
The next session he had read up and started talking to me about prosthetics and such and encouraged me to look into that and then he helped me look at what options I had in terms of transitioning.
That's a difficult question for me hahaha
I am a virgin ... but I realize that I am passive in relationships ...
I am attracted to men, muscles, their bodies and their tools. I'm sure it's just physical attraction ... ::)
I'm not attracted to women, but sentimental relationships are incredible, be it friends or lovers.
For romantic things, I hope someone treats me like a princess (but now I look like a child, so it's impossible ... life sucks)
Now, I feel sexually frustrated, so I'm considering get a boyfriend (even gay or bi man ... the plan: In future, turn him into hetero-man, BDSM-Slave and beloved prince >:-) ... is it too much to ask? Girls need to dream highly )
Quote from: Ely-chan on January 19, 2019, 02:59:58 AM
That's a difficult question for me hahaha
I am a virgin ... but I realize that I am passive in relationships ...
I am attracted to men, muscles, their bodies and their tools. I'm sure it's just physical attraction ... ::)
I'm not attracted to women, but sentimental relationships are incredible, be it friends or lovers.
For romantic things, I hope someone treats me like a princess (but now I look like a child, so it's impossible ... life sucks)
Now, I feel sexually frustrated, so I'm considering get a boyfriend (even gay or bi man ... the plan: In future, turn him into hetero-man, BDSM-Slave and beloved prince >:-) ... is it too much to ask? Girls need to dream highly )
Only you do know what you want and like. Is it asked to much to be happy? No, it is never to much, because you have the right to be as happy as can be!
BDSM is a strange world for me, I think I would break the arms of a person, who would try his on/with me, and if that person is in bad luck, I would break their neck, too!
But again, everybody ticks different! You go for what makes you happy (just be carefull with some of these games!)
Good luck!
Linde
Quote from: luckygirl on January 06, 2019, 03:05:20 PM
I have a theory that when we were young and believed we could do nothing about our situations and all we wanted was acceptance and normalcy, we knew we weren't gay and just wanted a normal relationship. That and we all wanted to be with girls and have those deep conversations with them. Our only hope was to engage in a romance with them. It got us as close as we could come to what we truly yearned for.
Seems true for me but my brain was so testosterone addled at that age that I looked at girls as partners first. I was friendly with them but none I would call a friend.
Part of me also thought all I needed was to be with a girl and that would fix my wanting to be one.
As far as attraction, I had made the distinction in my head that there were some girls I'd call pretty and some I'd call sexy. The distinction was the pretty girls were tall, thin, and blond or red hair. Sexy girls were dark and curvy. Didn't realize until after starting transition that the sexy girls were ones I wanted to be with and the pretty girls were the ones I wanted to be, as I was tall, blond and skinny (at least I was until beer and pizza in college).
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Definitely attracted to both men and women. Interestingly just before I came out and when the dysphoria was at its worst I was fiercely attracted to men to the exclusion of women. After accepting myself more and starting hormones, I find myself attracted to women again.
I think part of the reason I was so attracted to only men for a while was that it was an expression of my dysphoria. I felt more feminine in my attraction I guess.
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on December 26, 2018, 07:15:16 PM
Very interesting topic! I know running a female hormone profile does change the approach & the dynamic to romantic interaction.
For instance once upon a time I could never see the value in a masculine individual as a romantic interest. Now I can see the value of someone else supplying the sexual impetus. As my disposition becomes more emotional and more dependent on the context instead of raw nudity I can see the value of a lover who is not like that.
In fact to a large extent its not about liking all men - its only special masculine individuals the have that certain something.
Ironically despite a feminine appearance my wife has some strong masculine qualities. Despite my mans man masculine facade I am feminine in many ways. My CIS wife is my guy!
I'm sure if I had transitioned at 18 when I first considered it- I would have ended up with either a man or a transman.
Great topic Beverly!
Kirsten.
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That is quite similar to how my wife and I seem to be. She is very clearly in touch with her masculine side. I had a discussion with my therapist about this and my take on it was that this was good - next topic please. I recall being relieved when she came "out" (in a way) about not being the housewife type of person. Anyway glad to hear your situation is similar and that its working for you. I spend a lot of time pondering what if this or that when its really not a problem.
That said my dysphoria is such that I truly am put off by the thought of sex that involves males. I have a male friend who is gay and once told me that the idea of lesbian porn makes him vomit. I guess thats pretty close to how I feel except in reverse.
I think women are lovely and beautiful! :)
Chrissy
Quote from: KimOct on January 07, 2019, 12:39:45 AM
I think there is something to that. I had a lot of close platonic girlfriends. And when things did get physical in a relationship the woman always was the one that initiated the first time. Except my very first time - I started that one :D
That is really interesting. I'm trying to think about the question of who initiated what and its always been them... I think this is a good topic I should bring up in therapy.
My feelings of attraction are one thing. My relationship situation is another. I am mostly happy being married with children and a wife. Actual physical intimacy is a distant memory. The dynamic that has developed - largely due to my being trans- is we have a platonic relationship more like friends with a common goal. I would prefer a physical relationship but it just doesn't work out that way.
Kirsten :[emoji257]
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on January 21, 2019, 05:16:42 PM
I think women are lovely and beautiful! :)
Chrissy
I think that only women are lovely and beautiful. As was said above, the idea of gay porn makes him vomit, or the idea that I would have to touch male genitalia!
Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on January 21, 2019, 05:52:35 PM
My feelings of attraction are one thing. My relationship situation is another. I am mostly happy being married with children and a wife. Actual physical intimacy is a distant memory. The dynamic that has developed - largely due to my being trans- is we have a platonic relationship more like friends with a common goal. I would prefer a physical relationship but it just doesn't work out that way.
Kirsten :[emoji257]
I'm still in the adjusting hormones mode but one thing that solidified things as far as Estrogen goes is that when I had abnormally low levels I had no libido at all. If could talk myself into letting myself be sexual but it was difficult to avoid finding excuses to avoid getting intimate. When I gave up trying to "fix" myself with Testosterone and flipped to mostly estrogen with a small amount of testosterone things felt right and also things became "human" as in seeing things with a functional sex drive. For a long time I just didn't notice anything as being "sexy" Months could go by between doing anything intimate. Anyway I love reading your posts Kirsten and hope this might be of some value. Abnormally low Testosterone = zero interest in getting intimate. At least for me.
Quote from: JanePlain on January 22, 2019, 11:21:19 AM
I'm still in the adjusting hormones mode but one thing that solidified things as far as Estrogen goes is that when I had abnormally low levels I had no libido at all. If could talk myself into letting myself be sexual but it was difficult to avoid finding excuses to avoid getting intimate. When I gave up trying to "fix" myself with Testosterone and flipped to mostly estrogen with a small amount of testosterone things felt right and also things became "human" as in seeing things with a functional sex drive. For a long time I just didn't notice anything as being "sexy" Months could go by between doing anything intimate. Anyway I love reading your posts Kirsten and hope this might be of some value. Abnormally low Testosterone = zero interest in getting intimate. At least for me.
Thank you for your reply Jane. I agree that the trans condition causes a feeling of physical intimacy feeling uncomfortable for want of a better word.
I too tried to fix myself with extra testosterone - it just made things worse.
A female hormone profile with female level T increases the desire for romance! Unfortunately my more feminine disposition doesnt fuel the fires for my darling S.O.
Kirsten.
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on January 22, 2019, 02:33:40 PM
Thank you for your reply Jane. I agree that the trans condition causes a feeling of physical intimacy feeling uncomfortable for want of a better word.
I too tried to fix myself with extra testosterone - it just made things worse.
A female hormone profile with female level T increases the desire for romance! Unfortunately my more feminine disposition doesnt fuel the fires for my darling S.O.
Kirsten.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
I'm sorry I can't send you half of this sex drive stuff Kirsten. I don't know if you need or would want it for dealing with your SO but I think I could do with a tiny bit of it dialed down....
BTW now I REALLY like reading your posts Kirsten. I would so love to hear more about your situation of trying to fix yourself with testosterone. I thought I might be the only one so if nothing else its a relief you say that. If your ever bored and want to PM someone (Waves hand) Because of cancer I had a year without either hormone being replaced which was truly horrible.
I am just overloaded going from essentially zero sex drive to probably what would be considered a fairly average one but wow... Its sure different. The things that suddenly are of intense interest that I just wasn't noticing at all. I haven't seen my therapist since this all started kicking in and because of more insurance drama I won't be seeing her for at least another couple of weeks. SIGH... So I should probably say I'm sorry if you ladies on Susan's feel like your being recruited to be my emergency therapists.
Oh no... I just had the thought - hopefully I won't start checking out my TDocs figure or something. Technically I know she is attractive but I never had this libido radar on. Yuck I'm grossing myself out. I feel ashamed watching the news because of the curvy weather lady...
It REALLY is like puberty again!
Reading all of your posts is fascinating to me; I want to reply to so many, but I don't think I have the time (or the energy, mentally) right now. So instead, I'll throw my two cents into the fountain of knowledge you've all shared with me.
I came out as a (terrified) bisexual kid at 11 or 12 years old. My gender, however I truly perceived it in that mentally foggy time, didn't factor into it. I like people, and am attracted to people, regardless of their gender. It was the only word I knew to describe what I felt at the time, and it was (and still is) an accurate label.
Then, I was pushed toward calling myself pansexual as the more "politically correct" or "transgender-inclusive" term a few years later. I was in a constant state of confusion on my early social media days, constantly learning and unlearning things about the LGBT community (not all of which were true, and some of which were downright malicious). The "inherent difference" between bi and pan, I later learned, was false; both bisexual people and pansexual people are capable of loving every gender under the sun, though not every bisexual person does.
Despite learning this, I didn't go back to using the term bisexual. First reason being, I strongly relate to the idea of being attracted to someone regardless of their gender, and that's not something every bisexual person feels. Second, after learning and seeing first-hand how the term "pansexual" has (sometimes) been used to exclude and other transgender people (as if they're less of a man, woman, or person), I want to reclaim it in some way. Third, I've been using it for over five years, and it feels weird to stop now.
More recently, I've also been referring to both my sexual orientation and gender identity as "queer," for the sake of simplicity. It feels like the best of all worlds for me, and if I don't want to explain further, I don't have to. No potential discourse about what "bi" means or "pan" means; if I say I'm queer, I'm just queer, and it's easier that way.
And before I go, I've also heard the "if you're FTM, that means you're straight, right?" comments from friends, family, and even total strangers. As if it boggles the mind that someone can be multiple parts of the acronym at once, or something. If I could, I'd direct them to my masculine-presenting, nonbinary spouse and ask "does this marriage look 'straight' to you?" 'Cause it sure doesn't look straight to me.
Alexander
Quote from: JanePlain on January 23, 2019, 06:59:30 PM
I'm sorry I can't send you half of this sex drive stuff Kirsten. I don't know if you need or would want it for dealing with your SO but I think I could do with a tiny bit of it dialed down....
BTW now I REALLY like reading your posts Kirsten. I would so love to hear more about your situation of trying to fix yourself with testosterone. I thought I might be the only one so if nothing else its a relief you say that. If your ever bored and want to PM someone (Waves hand) Because of cancer I had a year without either hormone being replaced which was truly horrible.
I am just overloaded going from essentially zero sex drive to probably what would be considered a fairly average one but wow... Its sure different. The things that suddenly are of intense interest that I just wasn't noticing at all. I haven't seen my therapist since this all started kicking in and because of more insurance drama I won't be seeing her for at least another couple of weeks. SIGH... So I should probably say I'm sorry if you ladies on Susan's feel like your being recruited to be my emergency therapists.
Oh no... I just had the thought - hopefully I won't start checking out my TDocs figure or something. Technically I know she is attractive but I never had this libido radar on. Yuck I'm grossing myself out. I feel ashamed watching the news because of the curvy weather lady...
It REALLY is like puberty again!
Yes I would be happy to PM later( after work ).
Kind regards, Kirsten.
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Bi before hormones, bi after starting, leaning towards women both times. Guys I get picky with, women much less so.
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I'm attracted to women.
I was a straight male. I'm now a straight female.
For me, once the divorce happened + estrogen, I no longer had a reason or desire to be forced to be attracted to anyone and found I'm not into women. I love my female friends but have absolutely zero sexual desire to be with a woman.
My fantasies have always put me into the female role and so it wasn't a surprise to me.
Quote from: jill610 on January 25, 2019, 07:59:02 AM
I was a straight male. I'm now a straight female.
For me, once the divorce happened + estrogen, I no longer had a reason or desire to be forced to be attracted to anyone and found I'm not into women. I love my female friends but have absolutely zero sexual desire to be with a woman.
My fantasies have always put me into the female role and so it wasn't a surprise to me.
It is just interesting to see how different people are.
I was a straight male, did never even think about any interest in other males! During my marriage, I was always the more passive part (my wife complained all the time why she had to always start any sexual activity).
After my divorce, and now with estrogen, I am still only interested in females. I really try hard to find any attractions in men, I almost force myself to be attracted to guys, but it just will not work. There is nothing in men I can find to be attractive! I am still into women only, never changed my orientation at all.
Quote from: jill610 on January 25, 2019, 07:59:02 AM
I was a straight male. I'm now a straight female.
For me, once the divorce happened + estrogen, I no longer had a reason or desire to be forced to be attracted to anyone and found I'm not into women. I love my female friends but have absolutely zero sexual desire to be with a woman.
My fantasies have always put me into the female role and so it wasn't a surprise to me.
I'm fighting really hard to keep my marriage right now but it's not looking good. I think that if we do end up separating, this will probably be me.
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Quote from: transspoonie on January 23, 2019, 08:25:38 PM
Reading all of your posts is fascinating to me; I want to reply to so many, but I don't think I have the time (or the energy, mentally) right now. So instead, I'll throw my two cents into the fountain of knowledge you've all shared with me.
I came out as a (terrified) bisexual kid at 11 or 12 years old. My gender, however I truly perceived it in that mentally foggy time, didn't factor into it. I like people, and am attracted to people, regardless of their gender. It was the only word I knew to describe what I felt at the time, and it was (and still is) an accurate label.
Then, I was pushed toward calling myself pansexual as the more "politically correct" or "transgender-inclusive" term a few years later. I was in a constant state of confusion on my early social media days, constantly learning and unlearning things about the LGBT community (not all of which were true, and some of which were downright malicious). The "inherent difference" between bi and pan, I later learned, was false; both bisexual people and pansexual people are capable of loving every gender under the sun, though not every bisexual person does.
Despite learning this, I didn't go back to using the term bisexual. First reason being, I strongly relate to the idea of being attracted to someone regardless of their gender, and that's not something every bisexual person feels. Second, after learning and seeing first-hand how the term "pansexual" has (sometimes) been used to exclude and other transgender people (as if they're less of a man, woman, or person), I want to reclaim it in some way. Third, I've been using it for over five years, and it feels weird to stop now.
More recently, I've also been referring to both my sexual orientation and gender identity as "queer," for the sake of simplicity. It feels like the best of all worlds for me, and if I don't want to explain further, I don't have to. No potential discourse about what "bi" means or "pan" means; if I say I'm queer, I'm just queer, and it's easier that way.
And before I go, I've also heard the "if you're FTM, that means you're straight, right?" comments from friends, family, and even total strangers. As if it boggles the mind that someone can be multiple parts of the acronym at once, or something. If I could, I'd direct them to my masculine-presenting, nonbinary spouse and ask "does this marriage look 'straight' to you?" 'Cause it sure doesn't look straight to me.
Alexander
I dislike acronyms and just have a general difficulty with following all the variations of sexual norms anymore. Quite a long time I was getting serious with someone who told me that before we got too intimate I needed to understand she was "poly" and I thought "Oh! she likes Birds?" Maybe I'm just getting old or vegged out. As long as I don't have to deal with someone who wants to take Bird Hormones....
Maybe someone saying "straight" is just trying to explain something in a way they get that is not registering on their radar. By that I mean there are people who have lived very conventional lives and have no experience with or even heard of things like transexual people. And I have a friend who is M2F married to a man in what I would say could be seen as a very conventional even "straight" marriage.
Well.... at least to me anyway.
I haven't done hormones nor social transition yet, but I've always wanted to be on the female end of sex and romance.
I can have something for women, and pursued women for years thinking it would cure me. But no matter how confident, attractive, or people savvy, I grew, I couldn't keep a potential relationship going. Especially knowing the main intention of it was to bury myself.
Quietly I knew I acknowledged that I was maybe 15% attracted to men and the rest women pre-coming out as MtF 2 months ago. Post-coming out, I've stopped blocking any of those thoughts for men, and it's at least even between the two now. Who knows where that'll go.
Men can be so cute, but after having heard behind closed door discussions between guys, I'm afraid to be around them without my like male force field of protection. But orientation is like identity I guess, it is what it is, damning or not.
I've always had bisexual tendencies I did not act upon but in the past I've mostly been turned on by women. I'm announcing here that I am forming an exploratory committee to determine whether I'm into dudes because I find them absolutely intriguing lately. XD
I have been watching romantic movies and thinking about this very subject. As I am m2f I wanna be the woman desired by the man. As I have been on E for 18months my desires are changing! Straight heterosexual before and I mean totally into woman. My body is becoming softer and more feminine(long way to go) I am realizing that my thought process is changing in a lot of different venues.
It is scary when it comes to the sexual attraction aspect of things!! The reality is that body image and social prejudices scare me.
Pretty much thought I was asexual for the last 10 years. I was seriously thinking that when I was going to have my GCS surgery I was going to have neo vagina. Not anymore tho, I am leaning toward the vaginoplasty now. I want to be a fully functional female. As far as I can be. Thank you,Erica
Quote from: elle's bells on January 26, 2019, 05:19:49 AM
I've always had bisexual tendencies I did not act upon but in the past I've mostly been turned on by women. I'm announcing here that I am forming an exploratory committee to determine whether I'm into dudes because I find them absolutely intriguing lately. XD
I am sure there will be no shortage of available committee members. I believe that I am going down the path of becoming a transwoman into other trans people. notice i did not say lesbian.
Quote from: elle's bells on January 26, 2019, 05:19:49 AM
I've always had bisexual tendencies I did not act upon but in the past I've mostly been turned on by women. I'm announcing here that I am forming an exploratory committee to determine whether I'm into dudes because I find them absolutely intriguing lately. XD
I can send any of them I know over to you, because I am absolutely not interested in them! I shut my committee down quite a while ago, because it showed that dudes don't do anything for me!
To make it clear, cis men don't do anything to me. I am not sure how it would be with pre op trans women, or even trans men. I think it is more the femininity than the perceived gender that makes people attractive to me?
Quote from: elle's bells on January 26, 2019, 05:19:49 AM
I've always had bisexual tendencies I did not act upon but in the past I've mostly been turned on by women. I'm announcing here that I am forming an exploratory committee to determine whether I'm into dudes because I find them absolutely intriguing lately. XD
If you are nominated, can I 'second' it?
As for the girl/beer picture, I only find it sad because I don't have a butt like that. I would find it offensive if the meme was to judge her intelligence based on her brand of beer. That would be wrong! She has a beautiful body and there is nothing wrong with showing it. As for the testing aspect of it, there is a bit of truth there. I look at her and think, "I'd love to have that body, but what in the heck would I do with her romantically?" Women are attractive, but not sexually
appropriate for me, post transition. Nice to see I am not the only one with this change.
I am still sexually attracted only to women. :) :)
Chrissy
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on January 26, 2019, 09:30:26 AM
I am still sexually attracted only to women. :) :)
Chrissy
That makes already two of us!
You're defenetly not alone Beverly. I'm also only attracted to men. I just love it when men see me as a desirable female. I was lucky enough to find a man who truly fell in love with me and we're now in our second year of marriage. I never really liked girls. I just don't get what's supposed to be so hot about a girl. When I see a beautiful sexy girl the only thing that might happen is me getting jelous of her looks, lol.
men and women are totally different. it is amazing that hrt can change people's viewpoints and perceptions. I can certainly tell the difference between the old me and the new me.
I am definitely not as visual and look for other things. I believe it is important to notice the changes cognitively and not randomly stumble upon them and not be ready.
Quote from: GingerVicki on January 28, 2019, 01:46:21 PM
men and women are totally different. it is amazing that hrt can change people's viewpoints and perceptions. I can certainly tell the difference between the old me and the new me.
I am definitely not as visual and look for other things. I believe it is important to notice the changes cognitively and not randomly stumble upon them and not be ready.
I did not change at all (and I am working already 15 years or so on becoming a woman). I still find women to be attractive, and I still cannot see anything interesting in men (unless we are talking bout cars, tractors and the like! But I am still not interested in their bodies!)
Quote from: Dietlind on January 28, 2019, 04:04:48 PM
I did not change at all (and I am working already 15 years or so on becoming a woman). I still find women to be attractive, and I still cannot see anything interesting in men (unless we are talking bout cars, tractors and the like! But I am still not interested in their bodies!)
Mine changed some. I am definitely more open to the idea, but haven't made that leap and don't know if I will.
Quote from: Dana Thompson on January 25, 2019, 10:00:08 AM
I'm fighting really hard to keep my marriage right now but it's not looking good. I think that if we do end up separating, this will probably be me.
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I hope you find a way to make it work. Its just my 2 cents worth and I'm no expert but have you considered couples therapy? Sometimes its nice to have a 3rd person who is trained to get people on the same page talking about ways to make a relationship work. Anyway I wanted to chime in and wish you the best.
Quote from: JanePlain on January 25, 2019, 09:41:29 PM
I dislike acronyms and just have a general difficulty with following all the variations of sexual norms anymore. Quite a long time I was getting serious with someone who told me that before we got too intimate I needed to understand she was "poly" and I thought "Oh! she likes Birds?" Maybe I'm just getting old or vegged out. As long as I don't have to deal with someone who wants to take Bird Hormones....
Maybe someone saying "straight" is just trying to explain something in a way they get that is not registering on their radar. By that I mean there are people who have lived very conventional lives and have no experience with or even heard of things like transexual people. And I have a friend who is M2F married to a man in what I would say could be seen as a very conventional even "straight" marriage.
Well.... at least to me anyway.
Haha, I can definitely relate to that. There are some labels that I've always tilted my head at, as I can't fathom how they got their names. Whatever floats their boats, I suppose.
Also, you're right, and I should have explained my experiences better/in more detail. I don't mind the assumption when it comes from a place of ignorance, but with good intentions. I only mind when it's repetitive, dismissive, or mean-spirited, as if they're refusing to listen or telling me that I
should be straight. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's extremely frustrating.
I am bisexual or pansexual. To me, genitals are only bits of tissue, so I don't feel a hang-up about them in general. When I first transitioned, I went through a "man crazy" phase, but even then was also sleeping with women. I've been with my husband for years now, but I am still sexually attracted to women and men-the personality and looks have a lot to do with it.
Quote from: transspoonie on January 23, 2019, 08:25:38 PM*snip*
And before I go, I've also heard the "if you're FTM, that means you're straight, right?" comments from friends, family, and even total strangers. As if it boggles the mind that someone can be multiple parts of the acronym at once, or something. If I could, I'd direct them to my masculine-presenting, nonbinary spouse and ask "does this marriage look 'straight' to you?" 'Cause it sure doesn't look straight to me.
Alexander
I mentioned it before in this thread (I think) and I'll say it again. ;)
I was into men before I transitioned, and I'm
still only attracted to men. Women are pretty and sometimes even attractive, but just not sexually, at least to me. Because my partner is AFAB (and not in the position to transition), he's the only female-bodied person I'm sexually attracted to.
Its fascinating how many MTFs had their sexuality change when they transitioned, yet how many FTMs don't seem to have their sexuality change. I wonder if there's a reason for that?
Ryuichi
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on January 30, 2019, 02:38:12 AM
Its fascinating how many MTFs had their sexuality change when they transitioned, yet how many FTMs don't seem to have their sexuality change. I wonder if there's a reason for that?
Ryuichi
Ryuichi,
Interesting idea! You have found it rare to find a F to M with changed orientation? If that is true, I wonder if there is an element of the differences in upbringing that could come into play. Generally, for F to M, expressions of masculinity are much more acceptable (within certain limits) than for M to F's feminine expression. Growing up male bodied, with feminine identity, any expression of femininity (back in my day) was slammed. Some can and some can't hide their feminine identity growing up. For someone who could hide, like myself, there can become such a thirst for femininity, almost like exiting the desert after a long time. There are many factors involved in transition, and I don't mean to boil it down to just one thing, but sometimes maybe the choice in partner changes after transition to be in line with that need to be the feminine partner. Certainly, I don't speak for everyone here. Many probably don't know what the heck I'm talking about. That is not their experience, which is cool. I do think that one factor in people who change orientation is a need to switch up the control thing. We had to hide, to control our desires to be women. We tried to conform and be strong 'men' in control. Well, after transition, it can be compelling, almost intoxicating to give up that control to a more masculine figure. Going through GCS was also a factor in that my body is more suited (in my opinion) to being with that more masculine partner.
As stated above, I know this is not true for many of you. I would be curious if any other 'changers' understand what I am talking about here. As for the F to M aspect, Ryuichi, help me out here. I haven't a clue. lol
Moni
Moni, you bring up a great point and one that I do not know much about. We define our gender and our orientation but that leaves an emptiness in describing position in respect to power. While talking with a friend last month she (a lesbian woman of color) used the word "soft stud", implying tom boyish appearance but not necessarily a dominant or top. Looking through various lexicons in gay vernacular my eyes were opened to all kinds of relational power descriptors that told me a lot of myself that I didn't have a clue about and I have rarely heard mentioned here on Susan's. It is almost as if we need to throw in a third dimension in characteristics; gender, orientation and power or position preference......and each may be variable? Too confusing for me. But we can talk about it when we get up your way to visit next month.
Anne
Quote from: Anne Blake on January 30, 2019, 02:01:00 PM
Moni, you bring up a great point and one that I do not know much about. We define our gender and our orientation but that leaves an emptiness in describing position in respect to power. While talking with a friend last month she (a lesbian woman of color) used the word "soft stud", implying tom boyish appearance but not necessarily a dominant or top. Looking through various lexicons in gay vernacular my eyes were opened to all kinds of relational power descriptors that told me a lot of myself that I didn't have a clue about and I have rarely heard mentioned here on Susan's. It is almost as if we need to throw in a third dimension in characteristics; gender, orientation and power or position preference......and each may be variable? Too confusing for me. But we can talk about it when we get up your way to visit next month.
Anne
Oh Anne, now you stepped in it! lol I know there is a danger any time generalizations are made so I will try to avoid that, but if you are happy with your power level compared to a partner, maybe you are less likely to change orientation. If you were forced to be keeping a facade of being the strong one, perhaps then a change is more likely. I think this was somewhat true for me. I do like your point, Anne. It gets even more complicated if you take it a step further. You could have variables like you stated, gender, orientation, power level comfort and maybe culture as well. I'm just wondering here, but I have been in a 'straight' culture all my life. Would I feel any differently if I was immersed in a gay or lesbian culture? Don't know! I really think that having my mind/body right after all these years is a powerful thing and has consequences that I could not have predicted. I want to understand why things changed for me. I honestly don't think my early desires were lies or caused by suppressing anything. Yeah, it is pretty complicated.
Anne, I saw your lounging in bathing suit pictures from Florida. I dare you to do that here. It's a high of about 20 degrees and down in single digits tonight. Did I mention the snow? I'll do it if you do! :o :o :o
Moni, honestly, even when I was pretending to be female, I usually took the top role. If not physically, I was the one that usually said what was going to happen and when. I hear that it's called "topping from the bottom."
Now the interesting this is that my FTM partner and I are both "top/dominant/insert your favorite term here," and we sometimes have to discuss who's in charge before any kind of intimacy! But lately, we've let it go and whatever happens, happens.
Ryuichi
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on January 31, 2019, 08:00:59 AM
Moni, honestly, even when I was pretending to be female, I usually took the top role. If not physically, I was the one that usually said what was going to happen and when. I hear that it's called "topping from the bottom."
Now the interesting this is that my FTM partner and I are both "top/dominant/insert your favorite term here," and we sometimes have to discuss who's in charge before any kind of intimacy! But lately, we've let it go and whatever happens, happens.
Ryuichi
Topping from the bottom is a really good expression! That allows me to characterize myself as bottoming from the top! My wife always had to initiate every intimate encounter (and constantly complained about it).
I have not changed at all, I still feel more comfortable as bottom! But I also have not changed my sexual orientation!
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on January 31, 2019, 08:00:59 AM
Moni, honestly, even when I was pretending to be female, I usually took the top role. If not physically, I was the one that usually said what was going to happen and when. I hear that it's called "topping from the bottom."
Now the interesting this is that my FTM partner and I are both "top/dominant/insert your favorite term here," and we sometimes have to discuss who's in charge before any kind of intimacy! But lately, we've let it go and whatever happens, happens.
Ryuichi
I share many of what you mention Ryuichi.
I have always only been attracted to men, masculinity that is.
It is not changing now, if anything it is growing stronger.
I have also been very dominant and hef no intention to change that.
I also have experienced a strong expectation that I was lesbian and that my transition is proof of this.
I find that people struggle with the concept that I'm in fact gay.
Moni I agree with some of your points around women having greater freedom to express masculinity.
Still this is not to the extent of tooping or dominating.
It is really rare that women challange the power dynamic and tgat contributes to tge mens not having spece to step down. Most women prefer dominant men. Tgey gripe about theyr decisions but thats all.
I have pushed against this for some four decades and it is very bard and tiresom. Both men and women work very hard at keeping this power dynamic up.
Now that I casually and consistently pass as a male in shoppes and such I feel liberated. It iz as if I have been wading through thick mud all my life and now I can finally breath and walk upright.
It is unlike anything I ever managed in the female disguise.
So no I certainly have no longing to change over to a less dominant position.
I feel as you but in the opposite direction that I can finally start to be a dominant male.
I'm still only attracted to men and I simply look to be the strong silent(or not so silent), in a gay relationship like I have been to my male partner for over two decades.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 30, 2019, 07:47:48 AM
I would be curious if any other 'changers' understand what I am talking about here.
I was never comfortable with the dominant role. It felt unnatural and was one of the things I hated about sex. It felt like a chore. I had to be something I wasn't. That's just in the bedroom. In the world, I'm confident, assertive and never hesitate to take the lead. I've always been bisexual, but post-transition my attraction to men has increased to the point that my future partner preference is clearly male. A clarity I didn't have before, thus the plans for surgery to support that preference.
Quote from: Beverly Anne on January 31, 2019, 10:50:49 PM
I was never comfortable with the dominant role. It felt unnatural and was one of the things I hated about sex. It felt like a chore. I had to be something I wasn't. That's just in the bedroom. In the world, I'm confident, assertive and never hesitate to take the lead.
This could describe me to perfection!
QuoteI've always been bisexual, but post-transition my attraction to men has increased to the point that my future partner preference is clearly male. A clarity I didn't have before, thus the plans for surgery to support that preference.
And here we differ. I have never been bisexual, and never did consider men to be anything else but buddies. Now the buddy part is slowly disappearing, but I am still only interested in women. The bisexual aspect might be the key for me being a lesbian, and you seeing men as sexual partners.
Questions of Sexual Orientation may be simplistic and reductionist concepts for some and, apparently, a lingering threat to others. Might some of us actually fear that a mutable and changeable orientation is possible?
Some people apparently need to proclaim frequently about their reactionary feelings and remind me of that old locker room talk. Perhaps some of us have been part of those discussions where people seem to need to brandish being straight? Groups of guys, too typically BSing about their sex scores and how much they are into women and ridiculing gay people. Some of the loudest in those groups may also be the guys who quietly hit on me as a femme gay man years ago.
Kinsey and company informed us many years ago of their research that indicated 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience. that was in the early 1950s in the USA. Today any very active gay man can assure us that there are plenty of "straight" men who wana get busy with them. We also know strictly "lesbian" women who have been married with a man and have children with them and lived that way for decades. All fine and good as folks determine their affinity group and labels for themselves.
But please don't let fear rule the day folks! Please don't fall for it. Our possible terms of endearment, orientation and yes, gender are as varied as the people who roam this planet. Attraction, romance, intimacy and sexuality are immeasurably pleasurable and who floats your boat may be around any corner if we give each other the time to actually get better acquainted.
Forget about the labels, our orientation might be a place of certainty or a wonderful journey of personal discovery where loving someone is about sharing and growth.
Tessa, I really love what you said above. For me this topic is about me trying to figure myself out and to not hurt anyone in the journey of being different than what I was. I don't fear being attracted to any gender in itself. My fear is the ramifications of being attracted to someone. I have been thinking that a statement such as yours would be helpful. Thank you!
Quote from: Tessa James on February 01, 2019, 03:14:37 PM
Questions of Sexual Orientation may be simplistic and reductionist concepts for some and, apparently, a lingering threat to others. Might some of us actually fear that a mutable and changeable orientation is possible?
Some people apparently need to proclaim frequently about their reactionary feelings and remind me of that old locker room talk. Perhaps some of us have been part of those discussions where people seem to need to brandish being straight? Groups of guys, too typically BSing about their sex scores and how much they are into women and ridiculing gay people. Some of the loudest in those groups may also be the guys who quietly hit on me as a femme gay man years ago.
Kinsey and company informed us many years ago of their research that indicated 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience. that was in the early 1950s in the USA. Today any very active gay man can assure us that there are plenty of "straight" men who wana get busy with them. We also know strictly "lesbian" women who have been married with a man and have children with them and lived that way for decades. All fine and good as folks determine their affinity group and labels for themselves.
But please don't let fear rule the day folks! Please don't fall for it. Our possible terms of endearment, orientation and yes, gender are as varied as the people who roam this planet. Attraction, romance, intimacy and sexuality are immeasurably pleasurable and who floats your boat may be around any corner if we give each other the time to actually get better aquatinted.
Forget about the labels, our orientation might be a place of certainty or a wonderful journey of personal discovery where loving someone is about sharing and growth.
I personally don't feel that my sexual orientation is threatened in any way. However, I do love fascinating discussions, and I find this to be one. :)
I've already gone through my experimental phase (I think!), and it was lots of fun, but for now, I seem to have settled down into a plain, old, boring monogamous gay relationship, one I'm very happy in. Fear (other than of sexually transmitted diseases, practice safe sex, everyone!), never had a place in my bedroom. All of my experimentation, all of my partners and all of my sexual exploits were ones I thoroughly enjoyed at the time, and ones I look back on fondly.
There's nothing wrong with being poly/pan/demi/bi/straight/gay/lesbian/ace/aro/etc. Whatever someone is, more power to them, I hope they're happy, as we all deserve to be.
But this is a discussion about sexual orientation, and even though I've already spoken twice about mine, I'm still finding myself wanting to jump into the conversation every now and then. (Safe discussions and) fun is fun!
Ryuichi
Quote from: Tessa James on February 01, 2019, 03:14:37 PM
Questions of Sexual Orientation may be simplistic and reductionist concepts for some and, apparently, a lingering threat to others. Might some of us actually fear that a mutable and changeable orientation is possible?
Some people apparently need to proclaim frequently about their reactionary feelings and remind me of that old locker room talk. Perhaps some of us have been part of those discussions where people seem to need to brandish being straight? Groups of guys, too typically BSing about their sex scores and how much they are into women and ridiculing gay people. Some of the loudest in those groups may also be the guys who quietly hit on me as a femme gay man years ago.
Kinsey and company informed us many years ago of their research that indicated 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience. that was in the early 1950s in the USA. Today any very active gay man can assure us that there are plenty of "straight" men who wana get busy with them. We also know strictly "lesbian" women who have been married with a man and have children with them and lived that way for decades. All fine and good as folks determine their affinity group and labels for themselves.
But please don't let fear rule the day folks! Please don't fall for it. Our possible terms of endearment, orientation and yes, gender are as varied as the people who roam this planet. Attraction, romance, intimacy and sexuality are immeasurably pleasurable and who floats your boat may be around any corner if we give each other the time to actually get better aquatinted.
Forget about the labels, our orientation might be a place of certainty or a wonderful journey of personal discovery where loving someone is about sharing and growth.
When your sexual orientation goes against what society expects, (even demands), it can be a considerable challenge to proclaim and stand your ground. I'm in my mid forties and an AFAB recently transitioned, I was always masculine.
That means that society expected that I was mainly attracted to women. I never have been.
I held my ground, now that I have transitioned the expectation has progressed into a demand. The stereotype is apparently that trans men are lesbian women that want to fit into society better and if I don't agree with that then I just haven't opened up to it. Then I'm just repressed and fearful etc.
It would be much easier to go with the flow ... it would be less hassle, less confrontation, less critic to just try it ... just be what others, strangers, feel is the accepted norm. I wouldn't need to confront or boldly claim or defend my orientation if I opened up and allowed it to shift.
I mean surely it would! Like if I would just open up to my femininity, get to grips with make up and skirts and be lady like, I wouldn't need to do all this transition stuff!
It is hard to go against the norm, to reject what society thinks should be, to stand your ground, to boldly and proudly walk out as yourself. People want to change you, to make you into something that fits into what they feel is normal.
I have chosen to not let fear govern my life or my sexual orientation. I have chosen, with fearless pride to admit my sexual attraction to males and masculinity. That takes strength when there are even some who will say that me being binary and attracted only to males is offensive to those who are not. Think about it..., me being myself is considered by some to be offensive to others. Is is really so bad to know your sexual orientation? Is that evidence of not having opened up?
Identifying understanding and knowing your sexual orientation is the act of accepting yourself as you are and not letting society, strangers, dictate how you should be.
Quote from: HappyMoni on February 01, 2019, 10:13:04 PM
Tessa, I really love what you said above. For me this topic is about me trying to figure myself out and to not hurt anyone in the journey of being different than what I was. I don't fear being attracted to any gender in itself. My fear is the ramifications of being attracted to someone. I have been thinking that a statement such as yours would be helpful. Thank you!
Hey Moni, Thanks for your supportive post. We have both been around this block a few times and can readily recall folks here who have come and gone while clearly changing their thoughts about their own sexual orientation. I believe this is part of liberating ourselves from gender and orientation straightjackets imposed by a dominant culture.
My response was triggered in part by comments about nausea and vomiting when considering gay sexuality. As a support site that sort of proclamation feels unhelpful and unwelcoming to the many men who are here and the huge group of us who are functionally, if not publicly, bi/pan/queer..different!
Yes, I feel lucky to have had lifetime of being and acting queer and am very comfortable about this being my normal. Men and women loving each other with public displays of affection is actually quite rare and, for me, a beautiful and profoundly brave act.
Judging from the gigantic interest in queer porn and the actual research that indicates bell curves for sexual orientation we might agree that folks have lots of interests they do not publicly acknowledge or act on due to fear. The consequences can be life threatening after all! If we are transgender AND LGBQIA+++ we can be dealing with powerful social forces that want us gone or at least back in some dark closet. NO WAY!
Transition may expose us to worlds of thought and realities we may have yet to experience. I encourage myself and others to let the light shine in and welcome the ideas and realities of diverse people all around us. It is about love, right?
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on February 02, 2019, 01:10:55 AM
I personally don't feel that my sexual orientation is threatened in any way. However, I do love fascinating discussions, and I find this to be one. :)
I've already gone through my experimental phase (I think!), and it was lots of fun, but for now, I seem to have settled down into a plain, old, boring monogamous gay relationship, one I'm very happy in. Fear (other than of sexually transmitted diseases, practice safe sex, everyone!), never had a place in my bedroom. All of my experimentation, all of my partners and all of my sexual exploits were ones I thoroughly enjoyed at the time, and ones I look back on fondly.
There's nothing wrong with being poly/pan/demi/bi/straight/gay/lesbian/ace/aro/etc. Whatever someone is, more power to them, I hope they're happy, as we all deserve to be.
But this is a discussion about sexual orientation, and even though I've already spoken twice about mine, I'm still finding myself wanting to jump into the conversation every now and then. (Safe discussions and) fun is fun!
Ryuichi
Thank you Ryuichi,
LOL, yes we hopefully feel welcome to discuss and consider without threat here. I love all people and that certainly includes men. How we feel about our orientation may, however, be far far different than our public statements. How many straight men can acknowledge another man being cute, hot, sexy or attractive? It seems more women are able to acknowledge those adjectives about each other and suggests to me that we as a culture are way too busy censoring our public utterances.
Part of this is the dominant cultural concepts of sexuality as dirty, sinful, wrong, pervy or scary. Sex negative cultures deny themselves and others some of the most wonderful pleasures and connections people can make. Yes sir, lets have fun!
Quote from: Beverly Anne on February 02, 2019, 05:37:48 PM
Thank you for saying that, Tessa. You don't expect homophobia or misogyny to be expressed or tolerated on a site like this. Dealing with transphobia on the outside is bad enough. We should bring these kinds of posts to the attention of moderators.
I think I was he one who made this comment! How dare you to call my dislike about the sexual organs of other males to be based on homophobia? Just because you like those, does not mean I am homophobic if I don't like them. I am pretty solidified in my sexual preferences (the little bit that is left), and don't praise something that I really despise to be nice and need just because you will call me to be homophobic if I don't!
I say it once more, the thought for me to have to be intimate with a male, causes physical discomfort for me!
I do not speak for others, just for my self! If you want to be the forums police, deciding who can and cannot voice once sexual preference or dislike, in a subject titled "Sexua Orientation", I think you are the one who is homophobic!
Look, I personally am gay. I am attracted to femme persons, not masculine.
My not being sexually attracted to the masculine is not misandrist or homophobic! I am simply not attracted to persons with masculine presentation. That is how I am wired.
Now, I do experience fear when solely in the company of men that I do not know well. This is not an unreasoning fear, but a pretty direct result of being gang raped.
Please do not try to convince me that I really should or must have sex with men. I do not respond well to that. (And yes, I have been tossed from a trans women's group because of this.)
I would much rather not be told I am wrong to not find masculinity attractive. Please don't tell me I should be willing to have sex with persons with a masculine presentation. If that is now some requirement to be here, or to somehow validate my femininity, my being femme or a woman, or being transgender, I would just as soon not be here.
@ Michelle
You voiced your feelings a little more diplomatic than I did, but nevertheless, your feelings are pretty much the same as mine!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 02, 2019, 06:39:25 PM
@ Michelle
You voiced your feelings a little more diplomatic than I did, but nevertheless, your feelings are pretty much the same as mine!
I concur. Women only for me. My ex-girlfriend is still convinced that HRT will cause me to be attracted to men, but the idea is fairly revolting.
Laura
Speaking for myself, and only myself, I think there's a big difference between "If I imagine myself having sex with men, it makes me feel unpleasant and disgusted on a solely personal level, because I'm not attracted to men at all and I would be forcing myself to have sex with people I don't want to" and "I think having sex with men is bad."
Without being as verbose as I have (for example's sake), I think the former can easily be mistaken for the latter. I haven't read any of the posts in this thread as the latter, at least not off the top of my head, and I don't believe that's been anyone's intent. I've seen some good-natured teasing, and some to-the-point questions, but nothing that appears intentionally homophobic or malicious.
At the same time, as I said above, I believe the former example can easily be mistaken for the latter example. I also see how the former example, mistaken for the latter example, may be alarming, unsettling, or disappointing. Do you say something, bringing attention to how you perceived the other person's words, or not?
I think it says something to the maturity, responsibility, and understanding of Susan's Place that we can discuss these things, even if we don't always choose the most "diplomatic" words.
Also, if I've misspoken or offended anyone, please tell me; it is late, I am tired, and today has been simultaneously very good and very stressful.
I will note that when I said I was attracted to femme persons, I meant exactly that. When I am attracted to a person I do not know what they might have in their briefs.
I have experienced attraction to women, both cis and trans, as well as a trans man, with beard and hairy legs, but still with some feminine attributes. I am definitely not attracted to masculine presentations regardless of gender identity or assigned sex at birth.
I will also note that I am demisexual, and will not have a sustained sexual attraction to anyone without an emotional or romantic connection. My girlfriend is one of the few people who has been willing to make such a connection with me.
It took me a long time, and some fairly brutal self-examination, to recognize my actual orientation as well as fears and dislikes.
Quote from: Tessa James on February 02, 2019, 01:09:50 PM*snip*
How many straight men can acknowledge another man being cute, hot, sexy or attractive? It seems more women are able to acknowledge those adjectives about each other and suggests to me that we as a culture are way too busy censoring our public utterances.
Part of this is the dominant cultural concepts of sexuality as dirty, sinful, wrong, pervy or scary. Sex negative cultures deny themselves and others some of the most wonderful pleasures and connections people can make. Yes sir, lets have fun!
I can honestly say that there are women that I find attractive. However, I would not and more importantly
could not see myself having sex with them.
I find it extremely sad that sex is thought of using such negative terms such as "dirty, sinful, wrong, pervy or scary." Its a damned shame that something that can be so incredibly
wonderful and if done with the right person/people
magical is thought of in such a negative way by so much of Society. It is only by those that continue to perpetuate those kind of thoughts towards sex that by extension, transgender people, gays, lesbians, bi people and the like are thought of so badly.
Maybe if we make an effort to teach the next generation about SSC (Safe, Sane Consensual) sex as well as "your sexual orientation/attraction/non-attraction is okay", we can help alleviate such negativity towards marginalized people such as ourselves.
One can only hope.
Ryuichi
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 02, 2019, 09:38:27 PM
I will note that when I said I was attracted to femme persons, I meant exactly that. When I am attracted to a person I do not know what they might have in their briefs.
I have experienced attraction to women, both cis and trans, as well as a trans man, with beard and hairy legs, but still with some feminine attributes. I am definitely not attracted to masculine presentations regardless of gender identity or assigned sex at birth.
I will also note that I am demisexual, and will not have a sustained sexual attraction to anyone without an emotional or romantic connection. My girlfriend is one of the few people who has been willing to make such a connection with me.
It took me a long time, and some fairly brutal self-examination, to recognize my actual orientation as well as fears and dislikes.
I share so much of this except towards masculinity, not femininity. I find the thought of having sexual interaction with women revolting for me. I have often considered it but am turned of by the very thought of it.
With men or masculinity I enjoy the smell and touch of their firm body so much. I therefore can very well have sex without romance or emotional connection. Just being close turns me on and I'm also very strongly turned on by visual stimuli. This just does not happen with women.
I also don't care what is in the briefs as long as the individual wearing the briefs is a masculine man.
I have most of my life had strong libido and helped myself a lot, used porn, and therefore experimented. I recon I would have realised by now if I were attracted to women.
I totally get that many men and women are attracted to women and femininity and I find that perfectly fine.
I also felt that those comments by Tessa were aimed at my type of responses. I don't need to post here or use this side. I can go somewhere else if being me and stating my preferences is taken as offensive to others. It's not the first time I have experienced that.
Quote from: skipulus on February 03, 2019, 03:15:30 PM
I totally get that many men and women are attracted to women and femininity and I find that perfectly fine.
I also felt that those comments by Tessa were aimed at my type of responses. I don't need to post here or use this side. I can go somewhere else if being me and stating my preferences is taken as offensive to others. It's not the first time I have experienced that.
You have basically the opposite sexual orientation than I have, and there is nothing wrong with (you can have all my guy friends, if I can have all your lady friends >:-) :angel:).
I think you and I have the same right to talk about our sexul preferences as ohers have talking about theirs! There is no reason for either you or I to leave this site, just because some other contributors feel the have the right to police our sexual preferences!
Quote from: skipulus on February 03, 2019, 03:15:30 PM
I totally get that many men and women are attracted to women and femininity and I find that perfectly fine.
I also felt that those comments by Tessa were aimed at my type of responses. I don't need to post here or use this side. I can go somewhere else if being me and stating my preferences is taken as offensive to others. It's not the first time I have experienced that.
I certainly hope people are not offended by discussions regarding sexual orientation here? I am happy to be part of the commentary and enjoy the deeply interesting responses. I hope everyone sticks around and adds their 2 cents. This forum can assist in better understanding and being open to shared perspectives that illuminate a greater world than any one of us can completely know or experience. I am not offended by much of anything here but please do know that some of us will continually be challenging the dominate paradigms of culture. ;D Perhaps foreign or unfamiliar ideas like gay pride may be annoying to some folks. I understand that happens a lot but would rather this is de-escalated. I'm hardly a mod or the police.
I celebrate diversity as reality, equity the goal with love and inclusion the best ways forward. We are better together. :angel:
:police:
I will remind people that if they get upset by comments to report them to the Moderators.
I shall also suggest that we always remember that equality, acceptance and tolerance are three different conditions.
On this site and Forum equality is key.
Quote from: Tessa James on February 03, 2019, 06:57:51 PM
*snip*
I celebrate diversity as reality, equity the goal with love and inclusion the best ways forward. We are better together. :angel:
Why am I reminded of that fortune cookie joke when you end your fortune reading with "in bed" when I read that last part? ;D
Ryuichi
I'm romantically attracted to women, but sexually attracted to men, though I do wonder at times whether my conditioning as a male has suppressed the romantic part with men. I think if I was born cis female, I'd likely be happily married to a man and have no interest in women at all. My psych thinks my sexuality is heterosexual female.
Quote from: Beverly Anne on January 31, 2019, 10:50:49 PMI was never comfortable with the dominant role. It felt unnatural and was one of the things I hated about sex. It felt like a chore.
touche' @Beverly Ann & @Violets! Couldn't 'ave said it better. As one with a more conservative background and classical education, I've skipped through this thread by following the various "quotes & comments" and am only reminded how lonely, as a definite minority here, the more "traditional" orientation road can be!
Quote from: Violets on February 04, 2019, 02:07:51 AM
I'm romantically attracted to women, but sexually attracted to men
Having struggled through an extra-credit Fordham U poly-sci course on constitutional liberty I truly fail to see what an emphasis on both "equality" and "diversity" have in common with each other? As trans, unlike when one refers to the term "gay", we are obviously a very diverse, each almost unique, so-called group of individuals. Are we really "an equal group" at all? Thus the conundrum! "
I've always had an identity attachment toward certain (not all) women which, in running contrary to "her" expectations of "him", totally rendered me incapable having "any sex" at all". Now, I simply don't get that with "men" (or lol "ex wife" for that matter but
that's a different story for the confused therapists!)
Thus an "asexual"? Or is it 'ole fashioned
SPINSTERHOOD merely raising it's ugly hegemony(sp?) again? All of this only reminds me of a fav French comedy by Jean-Baptiste Moliere:
"Betrayed and wronged in everything, I'll flee this bitter world thread
where vice is king, And seek some spot unpeopled and apart
Where I'll be free to have an honest heart."
Gee, lotsa girls but not many "cis guys" around here at all! Don't get me wrong I love and am amused by the "diversity" at Susan's forum and, as we each individually try to desperately validate our own life choices, it's inevitable we'll run into conflicting attitudes yet, in turn naturally wanting to push our own agendas, yes we can "get along" regardless! But, what's perhaps not as obvious, is equality of "support" by no means implies "agreement" ( and the only thing this place truly lacks, due to thin-skin at the expense of one another, is
HUMOR and the ability to laugh at ourselves! )
Quote from: Violets on February 04, 2019, 02:07:51 AM
I think if I was born cis female, I'd likely be happily married to a man and have no interest in women at all. My psych thinks my sexuality is heterosexual female.
I can so relate to that, in another life before transition I dated women and had a girlfriend, then transition and getting flattering attention from men, then I went on a date with a man, I was overwhelmed with the attention, I just went with the flow. then going to a movie with my first boyfriend, holding hands and putting his arm around me, it felt so weird, the heterosexual female finally coming out, being with a guy when I was a guy just didn't feel right, but as a woman it feels right and the guy is attracted to my femininity, I'm now happily married to a man for the past nine years, I never ever thought things would turn out as they did, being married but marrying a man, we're now just a normal husband & wife, waking up in a the middle of the night and this hunk of a guy snoring his head of next to me, this was never the plan lol orientation can be complicated but being happy with our situation, I'm happy now being the woman I am.
Quote from: pretty pauline on February 05, 2019, 04:50:26 AMI never ever thought . . . we're now just a normal husband & wife . . . this hunk of a guy . . . was never the plan . . .happy now being the woman I am.
:) ;) ;D lol It's hardly
EVER "the plan", pre-concieved habits & notions be
DAMNED the best teacher is always
Experience and there's nothing quite like defenses down, being truly vulnerable and just "i]letting it all go[/i]" for once !
Holy Moly !! I stopped following this topic after I posted on page 2. Look at what I missed out on. ;D
In my mind human sexuality maybe one of or THE most complex thing in the human experience. There are so many variations on it. No one and I mean No one - should be criticized for their preferences so long as it is between two consenting adults.
That said - I think the overlap of sexuality and gender makes the topic so much more complicated. In my mind gender orientation and sexual orientation is like a Ven diagram ( you know 3rd grade math where the two circles partially overlap each other)
Gender does not = sexual orientation but it does have a relation to it. For me if I had a much more feminine body I think I would be more attracted to men. Not because I am homophobic but because I feel like I would be having sex in the wrong body. This is messed up $#!+ but it is how I feel. My physical dysphoria has definitely affected my sexuality.
Before transitioning when I would have sex with women I would fantasize that I was a woman having sex with a man. And yet I find women more attractive than men. Whaaatt !!?? It doesn't make sense to me either. I think that part of the reason I found/find women attractive is that I want to resemble them and be them. It partially goes back to the whole >-bleeped-< theory which I disagree with for the most part but as with most B.S. theories there is probably a grain of truth there.
OK - this is turning into a ramble. In closing - you are attracted to who you are attracted to and don't give anyone else a hard time for what they like. Pretty simple right?
Quote from: KimOct on February 06, 2019, 11:23:24 PM
For me if I had a much more feminine body I think I would be more attracted to men. Not because I am homophobic but because I feel like I would be having sex in the wrong body. This is messed up $#!+ but it is how I feel. My physical dysphoria has definitely affected my sexuality.
Pretty simple right?
Pretty simple, correct! This is what my therapist is going on with me, too. She feels it is the underlying fear of being gay, which causes me to dislike men! She feels, the sooner I would have SRS, the better it would be for me and my sexual orientation. i don't know??????????
Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 08:15:49 AM
Pretty simple, correct! This is what my therapist is going on with me, too. She feels it is the underlying fear of being gay, which causes me to dislike men! She feels, the sooner I would have SRS, the better it would be for me and my sexual orientation. i don't know??????????
Does that mean full vaginoplasty is the best option?
Kind regards, Kirsten.
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Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 08:15:49 AM
Pretty simple, correct! This is what my therapist is going on with me, too. She feels it is the underlying fear of being gay, which causes me to dislike men! She feels, the sooner I would have SRS, the better it would be for me and my sexual orientation. i don't know??????????
If there's not something that she's picked up on from you to make her believe that, its total nonsense. Maybe your attraction will change after GCS, but a blanket statement like that is just wrong.
Is your therapist not aware of lesbians? Supposed to be 10% of the population, why would trans people be different. It seems like she's saying the only reason you want a vagina is to have sex with men. I want GCS to alleviate the dysphoria I have about a now useless portion of my anatomy and to make myself feel whole. Plenty of lesbians, cis and trans, perfectly happy to not have a penis anywhere near their vagina.
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 07, 2019, 09:57:59 AM
Does that mean full vaginoplasty is the best option?
Kind regards, Kirsten.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
I am not sure, I have to consider my age. And as Dorit, who is just a few years younger, said, a vulva with minimum depth vagina is just fine in her opinion.
I think I have to see how it goes, and what a potential surgeon would think would be best for me!
It is still extremely hard for me to imagine that I ever would want to climb into a bed with a guy! I have to retune my brain to be able to do that!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
I am not sure, I have to consider my age. And as Dorit, who is just a few years younger, said, a vulva with minimum depth vagina is just fine in her opinion.
I think I have to see how it goes, and what a potential surgeon would think would be best for me!
It is still extremely hard for me to imagine that I ever would want to climb into a bed with a guy! I have to retune my brain to be able to do that!
I can understand the guy bit being not so attractive ! Funilly I like masculine women
A proper vagina could be fun with the right woman ( masculine or feminine ) dont you think?
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 07, 2019, 02:57:19 PM
I can understand the guy bit being not so attractive ! Funilly I like masculine women
A proper vagina could be fun with the right woman ( masculine or feminine ) dont you think?
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I don't really know. I have not had any sex for at least 15 years now, and am mostly asexual, and cannot get arroused anymore by any sexual thought. My libido is at someplace in the subbasement. The entire thought is still pretty foreign to me. I don't know if my libido will come back after I had my orchi in a few days.
I thought I had it all figured out and pretty well under control, and now the entire rollercoaster of sexual emotions may start over again! I don't know if I really like this!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 04:01:03 PM
I don't really know. I have not had any sex for at least 15 years now, and am mostly asexual, and cannot get arroused anymore by any sxual thought. My libido is at someplace in the subbasement. The entire thought i still pretty foreign to me. I don't know if my libido will come back after I had my orchi in a few days.
I thought I had it all figured out and pretty well under control, and now the entire rollercoaster of sexual emotions may start over again! I don't know if I really like this!
Very true!I know what it is like to be free from compelling libido. I dont know if I would like it again.
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Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on February 07, 2019, 04:16:55 PM
Very true!I know what it is like to be free from compelling libido. I dont know if I would like it again.
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The only time I have been free of "compelling libido" is during clinical depression. I didn't enjoy it, in fact I complained to the psychiatrist but they don't listen to that with women. He was mostly amused and puzzled that a woman would complain about it and asked why it mattered. I've always had high libido even before T and now that things are growing it is even more fun than before.
Quote from: skipulus on February 07, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
The only time I have been free of "compelling libido" is during clinical depression. I didn't enjoy it, in fact I complained to the psychiatrist but they don't listen to that with women. He was mostly amused and puzzled that a woman would complain about it and asked why it mattered. I've always had high libido even before T and now that things are growing it is even more fun than before.
I think it is a matter of age, if high libido is fun or a burden. I do not frequent locations anymore at which I could ind a partner to take care of my libido needs, and when done, just say "nice meeting you"!
The places i visit in these days ar restaurants, discussion groups, and other social or volunteer events. It is not that easy to find somebody there, with who you want to live you libido to the hilt!
This is the reason that i like my non existing libido pretty well these days!
Quote from: skipulus on February 07, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
The only time I have been free of "compelling libido" is during clinical depression. I didn't enjoy it, in fact I complained to the psychiatrist but they don't listen to that with women. He was mostly amused and puzzled that a woman would complain about it and asked why it mattered. I've always had high libido even before T and now that things are growing it is even more fun than before.
Does physical romance with your SO mitigate the anxiousness of high libido?
Lots of action normally helps?
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Sorry I might be missing the point - it works well for you!!
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Quote from: skipulus on February 07, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
The only time I have been free of "compelling libido" is during clinical depression. I didn't enjoy it, in fact I complained to the psychiatrist but they don't listen to that with women. He was mostly amused and puzzled that a woman would complain about it and asked why it mattered. I've always had high libido even before T and now that things are growing it is even more fun than before.
When I was pretending to be female, I had what might be considered a "high libido." I don't understand why your therapist thought it "amusing and puzzling" that a pre-T AFAB would have a high libido. Women are and do have sex simply because its fun/feels good/makes you closer to your partner/add your own reasons here. Not every woman is "not interested in sex" for whatever reason. For some reason, Society in general seems to think that "women don't like sex/don't want sex/whatever other reasons people come up with." Some women simply like it. Why do cis men feel that's so strange, I will
never understand. :-\
Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 06:47:56 PM
I think it is a matter of age, if high libido is fun or a burden. I do not frequent locations anymore at which I could ind a partner to take care of my libido needs, and when done, just say "nice meeting you"!
The places i visit in these days ar restaurants, discussion groups, and other social or volunteer events. It is not that easy to find somebody there, with who you want to live you libido to the hilt!
This is the reason that i like my non existing libido pretty well these days!
It might actually be a matter of age, but since going on T a bit over two years ago, my already high libido is only gotten higher! Sure, I'm 57 in body, but my sex drive is
definitely that of a teenage boy! I don't see it going away anytime soon, and honestly, I hope it never really does! I loved sex when I was pretending to be female, and I still love it, as does my non-transitioning AFAB partner. Lucky for me, I found him online, I didn't even have to leave the house! ;)
Ryuichi
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on February 08, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
When I was pretending to be female, I had what might be considered a "high libido." I don't understand why your therapist thought it "amusing and puzzling" that a pre-T AFAB would have a high libido. Women are and do have sex simply because its fun/feels good/makes you closer to your partner/add your own reasons here. Not every woman is "not interested in sex" for whatever reason. For some reason, Society in general seems to think that "women don't like sex/don't want sex/whatever other reasons people come up with." Some women simply like it. Why do cis men feel that's so strange, I will never understand. :-\
I agree absalutely, my mother still has high libido at 78! Many women though are not that interested to be fair, and rarely raise it with male psychiatrists.
A bit of a back story for that incident. It happened about 20 years ago, I was suicidal and under constant observartion in a closed mental ward. I had attempted suicide and they weren't taking any chances. The first Psychiatrist to evaluate me started her report with my description as a "young female with masculine movements/behaviour".
There was no Gender Dysphoria diagnostic label available in their books then. Instead I was diagnosed with a range of personality disorders. They called it then a "confused gender identity".
It was considered a delusion and a symptom of psychosis and treated as such with medication and hospitalisation when they considered me at risk.
Quote
It might actually be a matter of age, but since going on T a bit over two years ago, my already high libido is only gotten higher! Sure, I'm 57 in body, but my sex drive is definitely that of a teenage boy! I don't see it going away anytime soon, and honestly, I hope it never really does! I loved sex when I was pretending to be female, and I still love it, as does my non-transitioning AFAB partner. Lucky for me, I found him online, I didn't even have to leave the house! ;)
Ryuichi
Yes receiving a steady controlled T dosage means we retain our libido and defy age in that respect ;)
Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 02:53:10 PM. . . to climb into a bed with a guy! I have to retune my brain to be able to do that!
Actually have found it to be quite the other way 'round Linde . .
the guy is bedding you as "don't think so" becomes a "why not" and then an "ok, yes lets do this" finally kicks in! A totally different dynamic, or "re-tuning" is at play, when someone else is the aggressor and your body tells brain
SHUTUP! Most women are just as sexual as men they're just not, by definition, as open and forward about it! lol I mean if ya listen to them every day "
feminine dress choices" has absolutely
NOTHING to do with it - a complete & total
DENIAL at best!
Of course what he thinks/assumes is in yer pants is only one small part of "
the total attraction package"!
Are you planning an "orchi"? At our age don't think that's a good idea, "T sex levels" are already low to begin with and, gotta agree with Tonya, if the predisposition toward men is not there already then highly doubt SRS will change anything (and, perhaps what your shrink is hinting at, will only make your bed sex death worse?)
For me, at our age, it becomes a huge Catch-22 of "probability": I'd rather
fantasize 'bout the thought of being with a man
*again* than actually sleeping (literally?) with another woman I may, or most likely will not, ever "identify" with at all? lol Sounds all very "narcissistic" to me . . . lol whatever happened to "opposites attract"?
On a "sex" level suppose one could say I
sympathize more with guys which certainly is not something very prevalent these days! @NatalieRene am sinking fast help me out here plz!
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on February 08, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
. Not every woman is "not interested in sex" for whatever reason. For some reason, Society in general seems to think that "women don't like sex/don't want sex/whatever other reasons people come up with." Some women simply like it. Why do cis men feel that's so strange, I will never understand. :-\
You are right, my wife could have had sex 24/7, she was wearing me almost out! And being intersex and with mostly female emotions for all my life, I knew a lot of other ways, besides penetration, to make her happy. But even with that way, it was really hard to keep up with her sex drive!
Quote
It might actually be a matter of age, but since going on T a bit over two years ago, my already high libido is only gotten higher! Sure, I'm 57 in body, but my sex drive is definitely that of a teenage boy! I don't see it going away anytime soon, and honestly, I hope it never really does! I loved sex when I was pretending to be female, and I still love it, as does my non-transitioning AFAB partner. Lucky for me, I found him online, I didn't even have to leave the house! ;)
Ryuichi
You are lucky. I am running through life for quite a few years now, with female amounts of testosterone, and male levels of estrogen, and neither of them is enough to get my libido out of the basement (I was never a sex crazy person, and again, I don't know if my biology did something to it?). I am currently happy about this, because I do not have a partner, and have no idea how to find one (what was your trick finding a partner online?).
I have no clue what would happen to my libido, once my hormones are all up to snuff,. and let me act like a healthy female.
I am currently the type of female your docs up there considered to be normal!
Quote from: Chloe on February 08, 2019, 05:52:33 AM
Actually have found it to be quite the other way 'round Linde . . the guy is bedding you as "don't think so" becomes a "why not" and then an "ok, yes lets do this" finally kicks in! A totally different dynamic, or "re-tuning" is at play, when someone else is the aggressor and your body tells brain SHUTUP! Most women are just as sexual as men they're just not, by definition, as open and forward about it! lol I mean if ya listen to them every day "feminine dress choices" has absolutely NOTHING to do with it - a complete & total DENIAL at best!
Of course what he thinks/assumes is in yer pants is only one small part of "the total attraction package"!
I wait to see the day! First I would need to find a guy, who would want to do this, and secondly I need to like that guy enough to do it with (I always needed an emotional bond for any sexual activities). At the moment I don't even know where to find such a guy! Do you have a spare one laying around, who I could borrow for a while?
Quote
Are you planning an "orchi"? At our age don't think that's a good idea, "T sex levels" are already low to begin with and, gotta agree with Tonya, if the predisposition toward men is not there already then highly doubt SRS will change anything (and, perhaps what your shrink is hinting at, will only make your bed sex death worse?)
For me, at our age, it becomes a huge Catch-22 of "probability": I'd rather fantasize 'bout the thought of being with a man *again* than actually sleeping (literally?) with another woman I may, or most likely will not, ever "identify" with at all? lol Sounds all very "narcissistic" to me . . . lol whatever happened to "opposites attract"?
Not only planning, but will have one, and health insurance will pay for it, because my estes hurt a lot for almost a year now. The doc feels they are so atrophied that the might have stopped producing testosterone about 5 years ago. There is not much of testosterone found in my body (I am at about female levels of the stuff), and those testes are not even very decorative anymore! My body did feminize itself over the last 15 or so years to that extend, that I would have a hard time to pass as a naked man anymore, and that includes my penis, but yet, I don't have female parts either. I am as intersex as I always was, and wonder if I ever an be a singel gender person (or at least feel like one?)
From y emotions I have been a woman all my life, partly because of my biological make up, I guess?
Quote
On a "sex" level suppose one could say I sympathize more with guys which certainly is not something very prevalent these days! @NatalieRene am sinking fast help me out here plz!
I still think that I would always have a hard time to accept a man as a sex partner. One of the reasons is definitely my absolutely 100% dislike for any kind of anal sex, which, at the current time of my bodis "setup", would be the only way, a man could penetrate me.
<Removed by moderator.> (my wife was the sam by the way, we tried it, and we both hated it).
<Removed by moderator.> At the same time, I do know how to satisfy women, without penetration, because I have a lot of experience doing this!
As a conclusion, why would I want to be with a guy, if
<removed by moderator> while I could have a lot of fun with women,
<removed by moderator>, but have even more fun?
Quote from: Dietlind on February 08, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
...
As a conclusion, why would I want to be with a guy, if there is always the chance that I would end up in prison, because I had to kill him, while I could have a lot of fun with women, and not be in prison, but have even more fun?
Well, have you considered there could just be the possibility that you have a sexual orientation that does not include the cisgender male population?
Consider also that altering one's gender presentation to match one's identity is not related in any way to one's sexual or gender orientation.
It turns out that when we shift our gender presentation and perhaps even our bodies to align with our gender identity, that this is completely independent of our sexual orientation. That is, I as a MtF person post-transition find that I have no attraction, need, or obligation to behave as a heterosexual woman, and I am no more attracted to male physicality than I was prior to transition.
It's far too common for people to conflate gender identity and orientation. They are actually independent. Breaking the taboos around gender identity and presentation does make us more open to breaking related taboos, though. Even the old Kinsey studies found that very few people were strictly heterosexual or gay, but that most folks were a blend. They had their 80%/20% guideline, that much of the population was mostly heterosexual with a bit of gay in their orientation, and the cultural 'approved' sexual behaviors suppressed that extra bit.
As we break taboo and deal with transition, we may also be open to recognizing a broader range of orientation and behavior. We may find that the broader range of orientation is acceptable to us, and we may find that some aspects are not acceptable.
There is no requirement that we shift our orientation to include factors that we are not comfortable with. I have seen unfortunate arguments that imply transgender persons must accept orientation changes to be acceptable. I have experienced this myself, and my failing to desire intercourse with cisgender males is seen by some to be a 'failing', to somehow indicate I am a lesser person in their eyes! I find this to be very silly indeed!
Only I can assign my gender identity. Only I determine my orientation. This is true for each of us. Those who seek to assign our gender identity or orientation are unlikely to have our best interests at heart.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 08, 2019, 12:19:34 PM
Well, have you considered there could just be the possibility that you have a sexual orientation that does not include the cisgender male population?
Consider also that altering one's gender presentation to match one's identity is not related in any way to one's sexual or gender orientation.
It turns out that when we shift our gender presentation and perhaps even our bodies to align with our gender identity, that this is completely independent of our sexual orientation. That is, I as a MtF person post-transition find that I have no attraction, need, or obligation to behave as a heterosexual woman, and I am no more attracted to male physicality than I was prior to transition.
It's far too common for people to conflate gender identity and orientation. They are actually independent. Breaking the taboos around gender identity and presentation does make us more open to breaking related taboos, though. Even the old Kinsey studies found that very few people were strictly heterosexual or gay, but that most folks were a blend. They had their 80%/20% guideline, that much of the population was mostly heterosexual with a bit of gay in their orientation, and the cultural 'approved' sexual behaviors suppressed that extra bit.
As we break taboo and deal with transition, we may also be open to recognizing a broader range of orientation and behavior. We may find that the broader range of orientation is acceptable to us, and we may find that some aspects are not acceptable.
There is no requirement that we shift our orientation to include factors that we are not comfortable with. I have seen unfortunate arguments that imply transgender persons must accept orientation changes to be acceptable. I have experienced this myself, and my failing to desire intercourse with cisgender males is seen by some to be a 'failing', to somehow indicate I am a lesser person in their eyes! I find this to be very silly indeed!
Only I can assign my gender identity. Only I determine my orientation. This is true for each of us. Those who seek to assign our gender identity or orientation are unlikely to have our best interests at heart.
Perfectly stated and I thank you.
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I go both ways. I have a slightly stronger interest in women, especially dominant women. And my male interests are for the girly males.
Go figure, ain't life weird?
I really did a lot of soul searching lately, and tried to find any romantic interest in men, but I can't! I still like to talk to men about subjects we have common interest in (mainly technical stuff and politics), but I am not able to find the smallest flicker of sexual interest in them, it just is not there. I know some really "hot" females, who I would not mind to share my bed with, if we ever would build up an emotional relation that would lead to this. I don't get that feeling/desire with man.
To tell the truth, from a logical point of few, I would not mind to be bi or what ever multisex oriented, because it would increase my possibility to find the right person dramatically, but it just does not work that way!
Lesbian in romantic situations. Asexual when it come to sex. Strangely, however, I've developed an interest in male on male porn. Strange.
Quote from: SophiaBleu on February 12, 2019, 07:19:21 PM
Lesbian in romantic situations. Asexual when it come to sex. Strangely, however, I've developed an interest in male on male porn. Strange.
I am like you with the first part, but I rally dislike to see mle pron models, no matter whether it is male on male, male on female. I am OK with pre op trans with females, but prefer female and female. But my libido is so low, that porn is not of much interest to me.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 08, 2019, 12:19:34 PM
Well, have you considered there could just be the possibility that you have a sexual orientation that does not include the cisgender male population?
Consider also that altering one's gender presentation to match one's identity is not related in any way to one's sexual or gender orientation.
It turns out that when we shift our gender presentation and perhaps even our bodies to align with our gender identity, that this is completely independent of our sexual orientation. That is, I as a MtF person post-transition find that I have no attraction, need, or obligation to behave as a heterosexual woman, and I am no more attracted to male physicality than I was prior to transition.
It's far too common for people to conflate gender identity and orientation. They are actually independent. Breaking the taboos around gender identity and presentation does make us more open to breaking related taboos, though. Even the old Kinsey studies found that very few people were strictly heterosexual or gay, but that most folks were a blend. They had their 80%/20% guideline, that much of the population was mostly heterosexual with a bit of gay in their orientation, and the cultural 'approved' sexual behaviors suppressed that extra bit.
As we break taboo and deal with transition, we may also be open to recognizing a broader range of orientation and behavior. We may find that the broader range of orientation is acceptable to us, and we may find that some aspects are not acceptable.
There is no requirement that we shift our orientation to include factors that we are not comfortable with. I have seen unfortunate arguments that imply transgender persons must accept orientation changes to be acceptable. I have experienced this myself, and my failing to desire intercourse with cisgender males is seen by some to be a 'failing', to somehow indicate I am a lesser person in their eyes! I find this to be very silly indeed!
Only I can assign my gender identity. Only I determine my orientation. This is true for each of us. Those who seek to assign our gender identity or orientation are unlikely to have our best interests at heart.
I am really saddened by this especially coming from someone I like and think highly of. I would never try to tell anyone who they should or should not desire. I would defend your right to be attracted to whomever you like. I feel bad that anyone made you or anyone else feel bad about their choice of partners. So, when I know that others and myself have seen orientation change through transition and I feel so totally dismissed and told my situation does not exist, it makes me feel very sad and hurt. I respect if people desire men or women. I wish that my situation would receive a bit of respect as well. I am listing your post although it is not my intention to single you out. Time after time it seems that orientation change is met with dismissal. It seems more important for people to state and restate and restate again, their experience instead of even trying to understand or support someone who is different. I have posted over 3000 times on here without a negative thumbs down. I have tried to offer support to others in any way I can on this site. You can consider this my first thumbs down if you like, but it is not an attack, it is not hostile. It is an expression of being hurt. It is an expression of not being listened to when I was having a hard time. I could have used a bit of support. So, if it is anyone's desire to bash me for this, I can't stop you. The saddest thing is some young person who experiences what I have, will find a community here that dismisses what they are experiencing and it might really hurt them. Maybe I just need to move on.
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on February 12, 2019, 07:58:25 PM
I am really saddened by this especially coming from someone I like and think highly of. I would never try to tell anyone who they should or should not desire. I would defend your right to be attracted to whomever you like. I feel bad that anyone made you or anyone else feel bad about their choice of partners. So, when I know that others and myself have seen orientation change through transition and I feel so totally dismissed and told my situation does not exist, it makes me feel very sad and hurt. I respect if people desire men or women. I wish that my situation would receive a bit of respect as well. I am listing your post although it is not my intention to single you out. Time after time it seems that orientation change is met with dismissal. It seems more important for people to state and restate and restate again, their experience instead of even trying to understand or support someone who is different. I have posted over 3000 times on here without a negative thumbs down. I have tried to offer support to others in any way I can on this site. You can consider this my first thumbs down if you like, but it is not an attack, it is not hostile. It is an expression of being hurt. It is an expression of not being listened to when I was having a hard time. I could have used a bit of support. So, if it is anyone's desire to bash me for this, I can't stop you. The saddest thing is some young person who experiences what I have, will find a community here that dismisses what they are experiencing and it might really hurt them. Maybe I just need to move on.
Moni
@HappyMoni I think maybe I was not clear enough. I was trying to communicate that we don't necessarily change our orientation when we come out. In particular, we should not carry that cultural conflation of gender orientation and gender identity and force ourselves to an orientation we may not have.
I have acquaintances who transitioned, and were trying hard to force their orientation to change so that they could meet cultural stereotypes. That's not being true to oneself. They internalized the stereotypes and were trying to adhere to them rather than be true to themselves.
I transitioned MtF, yet my orientation is still towards women. I had to be honest with myself and recognize that my orientation was not toward anatomical parts I couldn't see anyway, but towards elements of performative gender. That led to further surprises.
As a woman, I am not trying to 'change' to be attracted to men. That simply is not in my nature.
My concern in writing this is that @Linde seemed to be troubled by not being attracted to men. I am not entirely sure of all their details, but one thought I had was that perhaps they were trying to 'force' an orientation change, which isn't a great idea.
In general I do encourage people in transition to be aware of their feeling and attractions, and I suggest keeping this in a journal. As we break down one cultural taboo in transitioning, other taboos may also fall, and we may discover a broader, different orientation than we had permitted ourselves before transition.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 12, 2019, 08:12:41 PM
My concern in writing this is that @Linde seemed to be troubled by not being attracted to men. I am not entirely sure of all their details, but one thought I had was that perhaps they were trying to 'force' an orientation change, which isn't a great idea.
Michelle, I would not want to say that I am troubled, but I would not mind to b e interested in men and women, just simply because the pool of possible partners is way larger this way. This is a rational desire! I really would love to be Bi! But I really tried very hard (and still will be trying), but I can find nothing of sexual desire in a man, in fact, I dislike the idea to be with a man.
I don't know if my rational thinking can be called trying to force an orientation change, but whatever it is, it does not work!
Linde, I know that you rationalized that you 'should' desire men so as to increase your dating pool. That is fundamentally trying to change yourself to please and attract others. I see no problem with that if this change is helping you to fulfill your own gender orientation as well.
Changing against our own nature to meet needs or expectations of others is not something I would do, knowing what I know now.
When we are faced with a need to change ourselves, we have to ask ourselves why. Do we need to change to fulfill someone else's needs or wants? Or is this change something that we need to do, for ourselves? Would we be changing to be accepted by others, or by ourselves? Does that change bring us closer to our authentic selves?
There is change that we engage in for self-improvement, to try and make ourselves or the world around us all better. Then there is the sort of change that doesn't really help ourselves, but changes us to meet the expectations of others.
When I was a little girl I sometimes would do or say things that made others uncomfortable with me. The sort of friends that I had, the things I liked to play with, the other girls who were my friends, even the way I moved bothered other people. Others wanted to change me, make me into something that I simply wasn't.
You see, as a little girl I happened to have some male anatomy. This sort of mismatch makes me what is now called a transgender person.
Eventually, pressure from my parents, my peers, and our religious leaders forced me to change. They wanted me to be a boy, a young man, something that was far outside of what I could be. I learned instead how to hide myself, and pretend to be a young man, suppressing parts of my expression and emotional life, exaggerating other bits, to become an unpleasant, emotionally distant, and angry person. These changes were good enough, and I was declared to be a proper young man, cured.
This was that bad sort of change, changing myself into something I wasn't. It let me live, sort of. I was in fear of slipping, of being discovered hiding behind that persona. It turns out that over time, living in hiding, failing to live as ones authentic self, will corrode one's soul.
After a half century, I cracked, then shattered. That finally let the light in.
I've spent the past three years going through another change. This was a change I wanted and needed to do. It was change for myself, to improve myself and truly cure what had ailed me, a good sort of change.
I picked up the pieces. I discarded the bits that didn't fit, and rediscovered my emotionally complete self. I let my core personality out to grow, and flourish. I kept other, useful bits from that old persona. I'm a woman who is not afraid to use power tools, or work with Maxwell's Equations. I filled in the cracks with gold.
With this change, I feel that I have done something positive for myself. I feel vastly better for this.
Quote from: HappyMoni on February 12, 2019, 07:58:25 PM
I am really saddened by this especially coming from someone I like and think highly of. I would never try to tell anyone who they should or should not desire. I would defend your right to be attracted to whomever you like. I feel bad that anyone made you or anyone else feel bad about their choice of partners. So, when I know that others and myself have seen orientation change through transition and I feel so totally dismissed and told my situation does not exist, it makes me feel very sad and hurt. I respect if people desire men or women. I wish that my situation would receive a bit of respect as well. I am listing your post although it is not my intention to single you out. Time after time it seems that orientation change is met with dismissal. It seems more important for people to state and restate and restate again, their experience instead of even trying to understand or support someone who is different. I have posted over 3000 times on here without a negative thumbs down. I have tried to offer support to others in any way I can on this site. You can consider this my first thumbs down if you like, but it is not an attack, it is not hostile. It is an expression of being hurt. It is an expression of not being listened to when I was having a hard time. I could have used a bit of support. So, if it is anyone's desire to bash me for this, I can't stop you. The saddest thing is some young person who experiences what I have, will find a community here that dismisses what they are experiencing and it might really hurt them. Maybe I just need to move on.
Moni
I gained a lot of insight from your posts Moni!
I am only early in transition.
Orientation change with transition obviously happens a lot. I know transition puts us outside the tribe of men.
A trans womans social dynamic and physical reality naturally cultivates the possibility of romance with the masculine species
Thanks to your posts and Beverlys I have some understanding of how the romance dynamic can really change.
Yours truly, Kirsten.
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Quote from: Dietlind on February 07, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
It is still extremely hard for me to imagine that I ever would want to climb into a bed with a guy! I have to retune my brain to be able to do that!
But I think that's the whole point, our brains do retune, nobody is more surprised than ourselves. Before transition and before I had SRS, I could never imagine myself going to bed with a guy, it was ugh! But that all changed after transition, now I go to bed everynight with a guy, my husband, I would never have done this before transition, and hubby is a very masculine, muscular, alpha male, sweaty and hairy guy, he crawls into bed completely naked beside me, this would never have happened in a million years before transition, but we do rewire and hunky husband does make me feel very feminine and spoils me like a princess which is nice and reassuring for me as a woman, if you can understand that.
Just spend an hour writing a response here and it went poof. Screw it its bed time.
Maybe I am too young in my transition to express my opinion here in this thread. But to heck with it I am going to do it anyway. First however I have another opinion to render for two friends of mine. Reading these last couple of pages I have seen what I am sure are misunderstandings and unintended hurts. One made an observation that gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. She then went on to try to explain that gender ID does not necessarily drive sexual orientation. She tried to say that sexual orientation is what it is for each individual. She said that due to social pressure or expectation some try to change their sexual orientation to align with those pressure or expectations and that doing so does not usually work out because the reason does not meet with their own internal sexual orientation. What ever our internal sexual orientation is, it is the right one for us whatever it my be. I agree with that. However, I believe where the misunderstanding and subsequent hurt comes from it that the narrative does not take into account that sometimes (fairly often from what I've seen) as our transition progresses, as we change our bodies, or minds undergo changes also. Along with these changes our sexual orientation can also change. Some of us find that our sexual attraction either expands to include more possible partners or it can change 180 degrees going from attraction to females originally to attraction to males. This too is normal and good as long as we change for our own reasons. I think both parties meant well but I think what we had here was a failure to communicate between friends. I sure hope it is over.
Now for my personal experience with the subject. I have always preferred women as a partner. I have always enjoyed being with and taking with females more than males. I felt more comfortable with females and enjoyed their company. It took me a very long time to discover the reason behind this preference was because I am a woman. I really wish that I had understood this so many decades ago. Perhaps I would not have ruined the lives of those I loved by think I was a deviate and a pervert or at best mentally ill for doing things I could not stop. instead of being able to treat others as I wanted too I mistreated them because I was always angry mostly at myself. Anyway I was attracted to women. I like to think this is my sexual orientation. They are who I want to be with for sure. But is it my sexual orientation? I honestly do not know. This thought could ruin my love life which I am currently happy with. But the truth be told I have never had much sexual desire. I can't say I have ever lusted after a woman. But neither have I lusted or been sexually attracted to men. In fact the thought of having a boyfriend turns me off. I have been excited by porn. Male on female or more specifically a man with a pre-op transsexual. Of course I was that transsexual. That was always my fantasy. Even at that The man didn't matter who he was he had a piece of anatomy I was interested in. Nothing more. The pe-op transsexual was important because she of course more like me. I would be just as curious if I was post op then I could relate better to a female. I would then be closer to my movie surrogate. Now days my libido is so low I don't think I have a sexual orientation. I feel inadequate, useless. I guess that means I would be asexual. Beyond my old fantasies, I think I may have always been. I do know love. I have always known love and love hurts. I have always hurt those I have loved and I have been hurt by those I loved. I am in a relationship now with someone who loves me and I love her but I am afraid I will end up hurting her in the end and I do not want that. I hate when I hurt those I love.
Oh hell all this rambling amounts to this. I am a woman. I love women. But I think I am asexual. I am also still messed up in my own head so take everything I wrote with a huge grain of salt.
Wow, what is this world coming to when Laurie starts to make sense to me. Ugh!
I wrote out a long post last night, trying to clear things up point by point. It really was professionally written, in triplicate, double spaced, a real work of literary art. You should have been there. And then it was gone! So rather than try to recreate a masterpiece, I will just move on a bit with a brief clarification and a wish for the thread.
I am not upset with you Michelle. Or anyone! Yes a nerve was struck in a misunderstanding. Let me state for the record that no one should have pressure to be who they aren't. I am deeply saddened that anyone was hurt by people trying to 'mold' them. I think it is pretty much agreed that gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. I think it is clear that some people change orientation through the process of transitioning. Pauline, thank you for speaking up. So, even though they are different things, there is a relationship between the two. For some, fixing gender does not change orientation. For others, it does. For some it is a good thing, for others it is a difficult thing. And yes, for some, it is perhaps less important to their lives if they tend to be more asexual. (Or is it?)
The boring disclaimer now out of the way, this is my hope for this thread. I would hope we could all be respectful of each other. (No fingers pointed in that statement, okay!) I would hope that once we explain where we stand in our own lives, that we move beyond the self proclamation. In other words, add to the discussion by going a little deeper. I will be vulnerable here and state that I could have used someone asking why me changing orientation has affected me so negatively. For my part, I could ask if someone has seen pressure or been tempted to experiment or just say I'm sorry to someone who has had a rough go of things. I think the thread is more interesting if we are a little more imaginative, plus, through a deeper discussion, we learn things. I could sure use some learning, some support. Maybe one day I'll be smart enough to help someone else. So, there it is!
If this poofs again, I'm gonna be pissed. I'm gonna blame you Laurie! lol
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on February 14, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
I could ask if someone has seen pressure or been tempted to experiment or just say I'm sorry to someone who has had a rough go of things. I think the thread is more interesting if we are a little more imaginative, plus, through a deeper discussion, we learn things. I could sure use some learning, some support. Maybe one day I'll be smart enough to help someone else. So, there it is!
Moni
I don't feel pressured (it is nearly impossible to pressure me), but I feel a little tempted. Today I tried to give this temptation a chance. I was at a Valentines luncheon /dance event of a local organization, and a really nice looking gentlemen asked me for a dance. We danced a few dances, and I enjoyed this, including the relative harmless conversion. Back at my table i started to imagine if I could "do" anything with this guy, and the thought did not feel very comfortable. He came back and we danced a few more dances, and again, I enjoyed the dancing and our conversation. But back at the table I felt more and more that I want to stop it now, because I would not want to promise him anything which I can't give. And I was pretty sure at that point that I could not have anything else with him, but some pleasant conversation. When he asked later for my phone number I told him that I would not want to meet him again.
My gearing simply does no work into that direction!
Quote from: Dietlind on February 14, 2019, 08:38:37 PM
I don't feel pressured (it is nearly impossible to pressure me), but I feel a little tempted. Today I tried to give this temptation a chance. I was at a Valentines luncheon /dance event of a local organization, and a really nice looking gentlemen asked me for a dance. We danced a few dances, and I enjoyed this, including the relative harmless conversion. Back at my table i started to imagine if I could "do" anything with this guy, and the thought did not feel very comfortable. He came back and we danced a few more dances, and again, I enjoyed the dancing and our conversation. But back at the table I felt more and more that I want to stop it now, because I would not want to promise him anything which I can't give. And I was pretty sure at that point that I could not have anything else with him, but some pleasant conversation. When he asked later for my phone number I told him that I would not want to meet him again.
My gearing simply does no work into that direction!
Linde, I love this. You opened yourself up to a new experience and took it as far as you were comfortable. It was also an experience where you learned something about yourself. I really admire that. I have never been asked to dance by a guy yet. I think I would be nervous. Did it made you nervous at all?
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on February 15, 2019, 04:12:00 PM
Linde, I love this. You opened yourself up to a new experience and took it as far as you were comfortable. It was also an experience where you learned something about yourself. I really admire that. I have never been asked to dance by a guy yet. I think I would be nervous. Did it made you nervous at all?
Moni
Not really! I am pretty confident and assertive (if you had to deal many decades with surgeons, of whom many are real divas, you lose your fear), my biggest fear was how would my ankles work, it was the fist time that I danced on 2" high heels!
I will try it several times over again to deal with guys, because I really would love to be Bi!
This is an interesting topic. I am bi today. It is exciting to see if it changes on hormones.
Tony
I've always considered myself a biromantic grey ace. Hormones have had no affect on my sexuality (been on them over a year now). If anything I'm more atteacted to women now than I was brfore (I'm MtF). There's definitely possibility of me being gay post-transition. Right now I'm sort of avoiding sex/relationships in favor of focusing on myself. Also, dysphoria can affect sexuality, and does in my case.
Bisexual
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Hmm, this is a great thread subject regarding Sexual Orientation....
When I first started transitioning I asked myself that question many times, talked it over with my therapist at the time, and came to the conclusion is to just follow my heart without concern for the gender of my possible romantic affections.
I do not want to label myself as Straight, Gay, Bi or anything other than a trans-full-time-woman.
Of course that is easier said that done for an MTF like me that transitioned in my mid-30's. I thought to myself that I would never kiss a male or be more romantically involved with a male but once I relocated here as a full-time woman I have developed mutual romantic feelings with both males and females... I have dated both and have done the kissing and petting things with both... with great enjoyment I may add.
At first it was strange to me to hold hands with, date and/or kiss a male but I got over it after the first few seconds!!!
Right now my main romantic interest is my Dental Hygienist Suitor #4 and she is very sweet on me and has no problems with my past. I also have 2 other active suitors vying for my attention... one male and one female and they have no problems with my past.
Many of those romantic details about my dating activities and my suitors are in my old "Hunted Prey" thread especially around springtime and summertime last year in 2018.
My best advice that I would give if I were asked for it... is what I first stated... ignore the gender and go with following your heart.
Wishing you all well,
Hugs,
Danielle
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 29, 2019, 02:47:19 PM
Hmm, this is a great thread subject regarding Sexual Orientation....
When I first started transitioning I asked myself that question many times, talked it over with my therapist at the time, and came to the conclusion is to just follow my heart without concern for the gender of my possible romantic affections.
I do not want to label myself as Straight, Gay, Bi or anything other than a trans-full-time-woman.
Of course that is easier said that done for an MTF like me that transitioned in my mid-30's. I thought to myself that I would never kiss a male or be more romantically involved with a male but once I relocated here as a full-time woman I have developed mutual romantic feelings with both males and females... I have dated both and have done the kissing and petting things with both... with great enjoyment I may add.
At first it was strange to me to hold hands with, date and/or kiss a male but I got over it after the first few seconds!!!
Right now my main romantic interest is my Dental Hygienist Suitor #4 and she is very sweet on me and has no problems with my past. I also have 2 other active suitors vying for my attention... one male and one female and they have no problems with my past.
Many of those romantic details about my dating activities and my suitors are in my old "Hunted Prey" thread especially around springtime and summertime last year in 2018.
My best advice that I would give if I were asked for it... is what I first stated... ignore the gender and go with following your heart.
Wishing you all well,
Hugs,
Danielle
Solid gold response. Follow your heart. But don't forget to bring your head along with it.
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 29, 2019, 02:47:19 PM
At first it was strange to me to hold hands with, date and/or kiss a male but I got over it after the first few seconds!!!
Wishing you all well,
Hugs,
Danielle
I think this is my main hangup with man. This anti gay thing is so deep embedded in my brain from my male days that I seem not to be able to shed it. It almost seems that in this small corner of my sexuality, I never stopped to be a guy!
I don't know what to do bout it! In addition to this is my dislike and fear of any anal action, and dating a man could lead to this. To avoid this, I just made it up my mind that I don't like guys!
I know, i pretty screwed up, but why should my mind be different than my screwed up body! They fit to each other pretty well!
Quote from: GingerVicki on March 29, 2019, 04:09:06 PM
Solid gold response. Follow your heart. But don't forget to bring your head along with it.
@GingerVicki Excellent point, it should be very obvious that we need to use our head and good judgement but there are times that the heart can block some of the signals from our heads.
The heart and the head need to work as a team....
...resulting in common sense and passion working together in a delicate balance.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this....
Hugs, and best wishes,
Danielle
I will echo Danielle's great point about follow your heart.
My orientation shift has been interesting. Part of it is conflicted by my body dysphoria. I feel comfortable being openly trans - It is how I have lived my life for the last few years and I am VERY visible. I bet at least 500 people see me a week.
But I am not OK enough with my face and body for ME. I can't imagine being in any way sexual with either cis men or cis women. I feel like my body is in between.
Regarding my orientation though I do find myself attracted to some men. I never did before - at all. It wasn't repressed and I wasn't fighting it - I just didn't feel it. Now I do somewhat.
I find women more attractive still but I definitely find myself attracted to some men. But I can't imagine them treating me sexually like a woman. Orchie only and small breasts. I think this is my last hurdle to deal with.
Quote from: KimOct on March 29, 2019, 07:04:21 PM
Regarding my orientation though I do find myself attracted to some men. I never did before - at all. It wasn't repressed and I wasn't fighting it - I just didn't feel it. Now I do (somewhat. )
This struck a cord with me. (Wow, agreeing with Kim twice in one week!) I was never attracted to boys when I was young or men later, before my transition. It was not like I sat there going "Look at that guy! No, no, mustn't have such thoughts! Danger, danger!" No, there wasn't an attraction. I always had crushes on girls. Post transition, I am attracted to guys. Can't freaking believe it, but that is where I'm at. Recently I saw a beautiful woman in a gorgeous dress. Guess who had a crush on the dress.
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 30, 2019, 06:23:49 AM
This struck a cord with me. (Wow, agreeing with Kim twice in one week!) I was never attracted to boys when I was young or men later, before my transition. It was not like I sat there going "Look at that guy! No, no, mustn't have such thoughts! Danger, danger!" No, there wasn't an attraction. I always had crushes on girls. Post transition, I am attracted to guys. Can't freaking believe it, but that is where I'm at. Recently I saw a beautiful woman in a gorgeous dress. Guess who had a crush on the dress.
Well, I would have a crush on the dress and the woman wearing it! >:-)
As I said several times, I wish I would feel anything for men! I like men OK, in a social setting, much the same as I liked them as I was a man myself, but that is it. I don't even know what is considered to be a good looking guy, and what is not so good looking (OK, I can identify hugely guys, as well as I can identify hugely women). I am absolutely guy-clueless!
Were you attracted to guys already prior to bottom surgery? I sometimes wonder whether me not being interested in guys is kind of a protection because of my extreme phobia about anal stuff, and might go away once I had surgery?
I wish life would not be that complicated!
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on March 29, 2019, 06:36:17 PM
@GingerVicki
Excellent point, it should be very obvious that we need to use our head and good judgement but there are times that the heart can block some of the signals from our heads.
The heart and the head need to work as a team....
...resulting in common sense and passion working together in a delicate balance.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this....
Hugs, and best wishes,
Danielle
My heart should play football defense. Over the years it has blocked my brain and common sense for decades.
On the flip side I will probably be a straight gal when things are done.
This conversation is fascinating to me because I have been grappling with the intersection of my body dysphoria and my sexual orientation. I think if I felt better about my body AND had vaginoplasty I would be more attracted to men. Yet it is interesting to me that I find them more attractive than before transition.
Someone suggested to me prior to starting estrogen that I would be more attracted to men once I was on E. I didn't see the connection. Is it real, coincidental, imagined? I dunno. ( I need an emoji with me shrugging my shoulders )
Quote from: KimOct on March 30, 2019, 10:43:29 AM
This conversation is fascinating to me because I have been grappling with the intersection of my body dysphoria and my sexual orientation. I think if I felt better about my body AND had vaginoplasty I would be more attracted to men. Yet it is interesting to me that I find them more attractive than before transition.
Someone suggested to me prior to starting estrogen that I would be more attracted to men once I was on E. I didn't see the connection. Is it real, coincidental, imagined? I dunno. ( I need an emoji with me shrugging my shoulders )
I need to share that emoji with you! I have been heavily feminin all my life, and my body changed even more to it long before I had heard about HRT, etc. But I never discovered any trace of attraction to men in me. I am now close to 5 months on Estrogen, have no balls left, feel very much like a woman, and want to be one, but I still cannot discover any attraction to men inside me. I would like it very much to be attracted to men, but I don't know how to go about it?
I identified a non-transitioning transfemale lesbian, but I am transitioning and men are becoming more appealing to me. Someone told me that they would not be surprised if I started liking guys and I am. I do not know how to have sex with a guy and I am not sure how to go about that.
I have a general idea, but it is just different.
Linde, I think vaginoplasty played its part. I don't think HRT causes orientation change. I always say transition causes it IN SOME people. Maybe it has to do with all the letting go of the aspects of the old person and accepting of the aspects of the new person. As the new me, I can no longer tolerate male patterns that I dealt with for years. It just doesn't work. I have no patience for such things.I don't like to be seen in a male capacity. I hate misgendering. It is really the whole big picture. Part of that is that I can't tolerate being the male or closest thing to a male in a bed or a sexual relationship. It doesn't work. I slowly have desired more and more to have that distinction of me as the feminine partner, partnered with a masculine counter balance. It seems more natural,more enticing now. It only upsets me because it hurts others. Sadly, it hurts others.
Good looking guys? Burt Reynolds, Sam Worthington (from Avatar), Chris Pratt (Guardians movies). Looks are less important than kindness to me though. Say no to bad boys! Never saw Brad Pitt as cute! Don't get that one!
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 30, 2019, 02:53:57 PM
Linde, I think vaginoplasty played its part. I don't think HRT causes orientation change. I always say transition causes it IN SOME people. Maybe it has to do with all the letting go of the aspects of the old person and accepting of the aspects of the new person. As the new me, I can no longer tolerate male patterns that I dealt with for years. It just doesn't work. I have no patience for such things.I don't like to be seen in a male capacity. I hate misgendering. It is really the whole big picture. Part of that is that I can't tolerate being the male or closest thing to a male in a bed or a sexual relationship. It doesn't work. I slowly have desired more and more to have that distinction of me as the feminine partner, partnered with a masculine counter balance. It seems more natural,more enticing now. It only upsets me because it hurts others. Sadly, it hurts others.
Good looking guys? Burt Reynolds, Sam Worthington (from Avatar), Chris Pratt (Guardians movies). Looks are less important than kindness to me though. Say no to bad boys! Never saw Brad Pitt as cute! Don't get that one!
Thanks for the answer Moni! I really hope that my bottom surgery would come soon and do the same to me. But I am way older than you, and my brain had much more time to build steel hardened walls around that little corner of male feelings that is left in my had and just manifests itself as a dislike for any romantic encounters with them. I don't know if that is it??? Otherwise I left you male patterns behind me as far as I can (well the few that I had), and I am as female as can be, because maleness was only a fake coating on me. But still, this one thing seems to be cemented inside my head. It's not the going to bed with, but it starts already with hugging and probably kissing. But that might be a protection mechanism to not even come close to a bed, I don't know.
My therapist feels that I am projecting my own genital dysphoria onto other men, which would mean that I have to see if this changes once my last little bit of it is gone.
But that still does not mean that I know what a good looking guy is? I know that I am OK looking (I want to loose another 20 pounds though), I have a presentable face, body and I even have some kind of OK bobs (the infamous hand full, enough to play with - but they still hurt like hell), so I have to wait that the good looking guy find me!
I hope SRS will change my orientation! I want to be hetero!
Linde, I guess the trick is to find happiness with whatever we are and however we are built. If it isn't in the cards to be attracted to guys, I hope you will be at peace with that. I am at peace with my desires down deep. My only trouble involves how it affects others. The switcharoo makes things complicated. I am not the type to enjoy myself while causing heartache to others. If gender dysphoria proved anything to me, it's that some things can't be fought by wishing them away. That's when acceptance comes in.
Quote from: HappyMoni on March 31, 2019, 10:00:42 AM
Linde, I guess the trick is to find happiness with whatever we are and however we are built. If it isn't in the cards to be attracted to guys, I hope you will be at peace with that. I am at peace with my desires down deep. My only trouble involves how it affects others. The switcharoo makes things complicated. I am not the type to enjoy myself while causing heartache to others. If gender dysphoria proved anything to me, it's that some things can't be fought by wishing them away. That's when acceptance comes in.
Moni, I will accept what will happen with me, I had to accept so many other things over the course of my life. But one can still hope. If it is genital dysphoria, which makes me dislike guys, it hopefully goes away once I had SRS, and I can become interested in men, if not, so will be it, and i might die as a lonely old maid!
Here I sit, being a lesbian, but never having been socialized as one, and I have no clue how to identify other lesbians or how else to find one. They might be all around me, and I just don't know!
The best way to figure out if you like something is to try it. That's my feeling on the subject anyway.
You might not find exactly what you are looking for, but at least you can have some fun along the way.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on March 31, 2019, 11:08:45 AM
The best way to figure out if you like something is to try it. That's my feeling on the subject anyway.
You might not find exactly what you are looking for, but at least you can have some fun along the way.
But if you not even get the chance for it, you can't even try!
Sometimes you have to put some effort into making the chance happen.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on March 31, 2019, 11:44:47 AM
Sometimes you have to put some effort into making the chance happen.
Once I have something back that only remotely resembles a libido, I will try to be a little active. With my current kind of libido, shopping or clothing is more erotic for me!
Ah yes that would certainly make things a bit more difficult!
Moni - I couldn't figure out what you meant by the following.
It only upsets me because it hurts others. Sadly, it hurts others
Are you referring to your partner or something else?
My celebrity guy crush - John Krasinski.
Yeah I agree -no bad boys. I always went for the mean girls. Took me a very long time to stop that. The guys I am attracted to are usually nice and not hyper masculine. I wish I had done this 30 years ago - I think I would have had a good radar for the right guys - God knows I had bad radar for the right women.
Moni - one last thing... I know we are enjoying teasing each other ( I definitely am :D ) but your comments above show what a sweetheart you are.
Quote from: KimOct on March 31, 2019, 09:26:08 PM
Moni - I couldn't figure out what you meant by the following.
It only upsets me because it hurts others. Sadly, it hurts others
Are you referring to your partner or something else?
My celebrity guy crush - John Krasinski.
Yeah I agree -no bad boys. I always went for the mean girls. Took me a very long time to stop that. The guys I am attracted to are usually nice and not hyper masculine. I wish I had done this 30 years ago - I think I would have had a good radar for the right guys - God knows I had bad radar for the right women.
Moni - one last thing... I know we are enjoying teasing each other ( I definitely am :D ) but your comments above show what a sweetheart you are.
Thanks Hon, I think the world of you too. I refer to anyone invested in me being in the relationship I am in my partner. Her, my kids, my family, friends and coworkers who like us as this ideal pairing. We really are that. Well, except for this curve in the road. That is what makes this painful.
Oh, I like to look at hockey playoffs cause I like guys with nice beards.
Now, 'tease on and prosper!'
I've noticed I'm still attracted to females but wether I'm just coveting their bodies .......
Emotionally attracted to females but not males although sexually attracted to both
But with men it's the very genuine masculine types not macho posing types etc ....but I still feel a revulsion towards them ...I can't understand how women put up with them
Other times I feel asexual like I couldn't care a less about sex either way maybe that's ahormone inbalance
I haven't had sex with anyone since I started hrt which must be at least 2 yrs now
So emotionally women not men but if I had the right parts perhaps
Sexually women and select men....can take it or leave it with men
Think this second purberty thing can mess with you 😅🙄😑
I would like to contribute to this thread by adding my own experience. I have always considered my pansexual but as I started transitioning my desire to be with other women has lost all romantic and sexual context, I want to be with women as part of a tight knit girl gang but nothing more. That being said, I still have an attraction to very effeminate men, sissy's, draq queens or trans women, but even that seems to be some thing I'll probably just keep in my past. I think I'll just try and end up with a nice guy with similar interests. I do believe both the hormones and lifestyle change have contributed to my change in sexual/romantic preference but I heavily discourage any one from placing a great amount of faith in being able to use transitioning to change their preferred romantic or sexual partners.
I would like to add that I was given a detailed booklet by the gender clinic that initially treated me and it mentioned the change in sexual orientation, apparently it only affects around 5 percent of the trans population.
Quote from: Miss Kitty on April 01, 2019, 08:19:51 PM
I would like to add that I was given a detailed booklet by the gender clinic that initially treated me and it mentioned the change in sexual orientation, apparently it only affects around 5 percent of the trans population.
Very interesting! I would not be surprised by that number.
I think mine has shifted somewhat but not done a dramatic 180.
I was at my therapist today (and I, the person always felt here is nothing better than some version of pants, am now running for the 5th day in a row around with either a dress or a skirt), and I told her that I feel super feminine. She thinks that the last testosterone influence may have left my body, and I am running now on estrogen only, and that this might bring out this feeling. She asked me about my sense of smell, and I told her that it increased quite a bit. She said it is a fact that women are attracted to certain men because of their (the man's) smell. It might even be that the man with the right smell for me comes around and I would be interested in him. What do you ladies think about this, can your orientation towards guys be because of their smell?
If that is the case, I sure will hope it happens after I had my SRS.
For the mean time, I signed up on a lesbian dating site, and am in contact with 4 different women now. I have to see what comes out from that. I know how to deal with women!
Dietlind ....I have that sense of scent too 😊 the good clean stuff not that grimy poxy version though
Quote from: KimOct on April 02, 2019, 07:20:22 PM
I think mine has shifted somewhat but not done a dramatic 180.
I discovered that my dial has another hand!
The hand my dial had before HRT stayed where it was and then, POP, there's another! It's kinda pointing the opposite direction! :o
I'm still physically and emotionally attracted to women, but, contrary to the answer I always came up with to the question I'd been asking myself all my life, I COULD be attracted to a man, but only after beginning HRT. I used to ask myself and ask myself if I even
could be attracted to a man and that answer was always "no". I don't think it was internalized homophobia, I just genuinely did not see anything attractive about them, their bodies nor their minds.
Then it hit. My best friend of a couple of decades was one of the first people I came out to. He told me he fully supported me
if I didn't hit on him I'm like, yeah, no problem! I'm attracted to women only! That didn't last long. Along comes HRT and I start fantasizing about him. I realize that maybe there was a reason we'd been best friends for so long. Then I did start hitting on him at parties when I'd lost my inhibitions. Then came the inevitable end of our friendship.
Damned second puberty!
I've come to realize that I am now semi-demi-pan. I
can be aroused by a body, but in the end, I only want to be in a relationship with someone whose mind is compatible with my own. I was madly in love with my ex-wife and I still love her, and I was madly in love with my soon-to-be ex-husband, and I will always love him, as well.
But physically, I am still more attracted to women and I miss being intimate with a woman. Still, once I have GRS...I can
certainly see the benefit of being intimate with a man! ;)
While I have this one remaining part, I have no desire to use it in any way and could happily exist pleasing my partner, only. I need no physical pleasure to get intense romantic pleasure from my partner. The thought of anal is not appealing to me, whatsoever, possibly from a dysphoria standpoint, but mostly because it's more like the back of a Volkswagon (Mallrats reference).
This is a very interesting subject for me and I'm sorry if I went long (again).
Quote from: Tribble on April 08, 2019, 03:21:02 PM
While I have this one remaining part, I have no desire to use it in any way and could happily exist pleasing my partner, only. I need no physical pleasure to get intense romantic pleasure from my partner. The thought of anal is not appealing to me, whatsoever, possibly from a dysphoria standpoint, but mostly because it's more like the back of a Volkswagon (Mallrats reference).
This is a very interesting subject for me and I'm sorry if I went long (again).
I am pretty much with you, pleasing is more rewarding than being pleased, and my back door will stay shut for good. I never compared it with the rear of my beetle though, cause mine looked great. I had it's engine replaced with the 1600 Porsche engine, and for extra cooling I had a device that kept the rear hatch open for several inches, which gave it kind of a spoiler look!
My baby (it was a convertible) was screaming hot!
Quote from: Dietlind on April 08, 2019, 04:39:19 PM
I am pretty much with you, pleasing is more rewarding than being pleased, and my back door will stay shut for good. I never compared it with the rear of my beetle though, cause mine looked great. I had it's engine replaced with the 1600 Porsche engine, and for extra cooling I had a device that kept the rear hatch open for several inches, which gave it kind of a spoiler look!
My baby (it was a convertible) was screaming hot!
Girls and their toys. :D
On the back door thing...I've tried a couple of times with my husband and found it extremely uncomfortable.
Ok since we are through the looking glass I will push the conversation a bit more. Never been with a guy, would I ?
I don't know maybe. But I got to tell you shortly after my transition my therapist suggested I go to an upscale sex toy store. Actually quite nice. Run by 2 lesbians in the hip area of town, ( Linde, it's in uptown ) anyway my therapist says 'try a prostate stimulator'. Uh, ok I guess.
So I go in there they were super nice and relaxed and I leave with my cis-girl/friend with a prostate vibrator. Smaller than an average penis. OH MY GOD !!! It feels great.
I could have never imagined myself getting anything back 'there'. Seriously zero intention. This thing is the best.
Quote from: KimOct on April 08, 2019, 07:33:49 PM
Ok since we are through the looking glass I will push the conversation a bit more. Never been with a guy, would I ?
I don't know maybe. But I got to tell you shortly after my transition my therapist suggested I go to an upscale sex toy store. Actually quite nice. Run by 2 lesbians in the hip area of town, ( Linde, it's in uptown ) anyway my therapist says 'try a prostate stimulator'. Uh, ok I guess.
So I go in there they were super nice and relaxed and I leave with my cis-girl/friend with a prostate vibrator. Smaller than an average penis. OH MY GOD !!! It feels great.
I could have never imagined myself getting anything back 'there'. Seriously zero intention. This thing is the best.
You are really fancy? Going shopping uptown the lady, eh?
I tried specifically one of those specially made prostate vibrators (from the same company that makes the blue tooth controlled vagina vibrators).
It did not work, it was worse than the cold finger of the doc during the annual inspection!
I just can't do anything back there!
Uptown?
Does every large metro area have an Uptown? Or are we taking Hennepin/Lake/Lyndale?
Sorry if that's too personal. I'm just looking for resources in this general area. :)
Tribble !!!! My sister from another mother :D Yes I am talking Hennepin/Lyndale/Lake. I didn't know you are here. :)
We have to get together. Yeah it's called the Smitten Kitten. It's just south of Lake on Lyndale.
Send me a PM.
Yikes! Sis! I guess that's why we take shots in the dark, right? :D
I've heard of Smitten Kitten but have never been there.
PM sent.
Ladies, we really have to have a get together when i am later this year. I plan to be there (if i can, for June, July and August), My son gets married in mid June, and I want to ride out the heat down here up north wit you guys. if any of you know a place that I can park my motorome for an extended time for little money (I need hookups, but can pay for that extra), please let me know. I will tow my car behind, and will be pretty mobile when up there!
We could do lots of fun stuff together!
Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 27, 2018, 09:43:09 PM
Thanks, ladies! I love you! As a female, I've always been attracted to boys, men. I married a female to "cure" myself, but that didn't work. I currently date men.
Several hearts broke when we read this....SIGH
Quote from: Dietlind on April 08, 2019, 11:44:59 PM
Ladies, we really have to have a get together when i am later this year. I plan to be there (if i can, for June, July and August), My son gets married in mid June, and I want to ride out the heat down here up north wit you guys. if any of you know a place that I can park my motorome for an extended time for little money (I need hookups, but can pay for that extra), please let me know. I will tow my car behind, and will be pretty mobile when up there!
We could do lots of fun stuff together!
ABSOLUTELY !!! As for where to park the mobile home the only place I know of is at Mystic Lake Casino - They have what looks like a nice enough place but I doubt you would want to be there for a few months. As for getting together that's for sure.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on March 31, 2019, 11:08:45 AM
The best way to figure out if you like something is to try it. That's my feeling on the subject anyway.
IMHO this is correct, @Dieland posted a more lengthy reply
elsewhere but think about it -> unlike male based "first experiences" enjoying heterosexual sex as woman does not come naturally, takes some getting used to is otherwise "learned". (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcowetasolar.net%2Fimages%2Fmoresmilies%2Fnoidea.gif&hash=adf805d3460065e317d11cb93d112b5fdabeec9d)
I am pansexual, though if I'm honest I feel the strongest pull towards other Trans individuals, of all shades.
I considered myself asexual before transition... but now things are changing as I open up... I am attracted to other women, but as men get attracted to me their behavior usually disgust me (trying to impress, but failing horribly)... this led me to believe I am lesbian, although still with that sapioromantic view.
I even have more feeling towards trans men than cis men... But I can't describe it very well other than they don't seem like a ''wild beast'' in heat unlike cis men?
I once had a man try to impress me, as I walked my green light to cross the intersection... roared his engine when I was in front of his car... I ran ''to safety'' startled like no tomorrow... then waved my hand like shooing someone unimpressed.
I consider myself to be straight.
I am into men.
Hormones have not changed that at all.
If anything it even strengthened my attraction towards males.
I'm definitely a lesbian
Lesbian as can be
In my teens, I was beaten up a lot, so I was afraid of most males. I have never propositioned anyone but when I was young, women occasionally propositioned me and I tried to have sex with them but was unable to. I was not disgusted by their bodies, though, and even got emotional satisfaction from trying to give them pleasure with my mouth. It was not enough for them, though, and I gave up on women.
There was a period in which I fantasised about women with body hair, muscles and penises but after a while, I had to admit to myself that I physically like men. No man has ever propositioned me, though.
This is a cool and relevant topic that I think would be a good poll. I would love to see a breakdown of how we all feel on this topic.
I am mostly asexual (zero libido), but leaning very heavy lesbian.
I wish I would be Bi, but wishing does not cut it!
I may have already said this (I'm vegging out) I have a friend who knew that being male and being with women was a flop. Not knowing too much about transexuality tried the gay male scene. Found that to be awful. I brought up transexual m2f. She transitioned m2f and men (Marriage and all that) fell right into place. Yea for happy results!
There are two mtf people that I know locally that I have a crush on. I would date either of them. I don't want to give out more info because some people that read here know those two people and I want to keep who they are private since they are unaware of my interest.
My primary attraction is women but I definitely look at men differently now compared to before transition. In the past I had no attraction to men whatsoever now yeah I do find some attractive.
It just struck me how odd it is that someones sexual interests can change. I believe the whole theory that being Gay or Lesbian was once considered mental illness. Then something that was a fetish but could be "cured" and maybe at last people are willing to say its what your about and there is no overlord that says you must be this or that way to "qualify"
I'm curious hearing from m2f persons who were attracted to women before transition and then changed to include men. Was it cross gender hormones or only after SRS (GRS)? I'm thinking it might be either or both but would love hearing what everyone thinks. Thanks!
Quote from: JanePlain on May 05, 2019, 02:30:15 AM
It just struck me how odd it is that someones sexual interests can change. I believe the whole theory that being Gay or Lesbian was once considered mental illness. Then something that was a fetish but could be "cured" and maybe at last people are willing to say its what your about and there is no overlord that says you must be this or that way to "qualify"
I'm curious hearing from m2f persons who were attracted to women before transition and then changed to include men. Was it cross gender hormones or only after SRS (GRS)? I'm thinking it might be either or both but would love hearing what everyone thinks. Thanks!
My sexuality changed. I believe it was soon after starting HRT.
What would you like to know?
Quote from: JanePlain on May 05, 2019, 02:30:15 AM
It just struck me how odd it is that someones sexual interests can change. I believe the whole theory that being Gay or Lesbian was once considered mental illness. Then something that was a fetish but could be "cured" and maybe at last people are willing to say its what your about and there is no overlord that says you must be this or that way to "qualify"
I'm curious hearing from m2f persons who were attracted to women before transition and then changed to include men. Was it cross gender hormones or only after SRS (GRS)? I'm thinking it might be either or both but would love hearing what everyone thinks. Thanks!
@JanePlain If you are still interested, I have one answer. I missed your question earlier. For me, looking at orientation change as a result of one factor doesn't make any sense. It was transition that did this to me. For me, I lived life from the perspective of a man because that is what my only choice was. I was genuinely attracted to girls and later women. I was not repressing any desires for men, they weren't there. Through the process of transition, my whole perspective on the world changed. More importantly, my view of myself changed. How I fit in the world evolved as a result of this and being with a man sexually is really something that becomes right. I guess I thought I could explain it better, but essentially, it is not one change but the whole perspective of life change that makes such a switch possible. I think a big part of it for me is a control thing. Trying to be a guy, we are supposed to be in control, including sexually. It was never a natural thing for me but its what I had and I did it. As a woman, my joy, my natural inclination is vulnerability. It is now allowed and it is pretty compelling to give a certain control over to a man. The thought now fits in with my identification as a woman. You start having guys treat you different, and the way you interact is no longer as one of them but as something apart. You start liking their attention and you like being noticed, maybe being checked out if you are lucky. They become attractive to you. It's surprising, a lot weird at first, and pretty damn inconvenient.
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 24, 2019, 11:27:04 PM
@JanePlain If you are still interested, I have one answer. I missed your question earlier. For me, looking at orientation change as a result of one factor doesn't make any sense. It was transition that did this to me. For me, I lived life from the perspective of a man because that is what my only choice was. I was genuinely attracted to girls and later women. I was not repressing any desires for men, they weren't there. Through the process of transition, my whole perspective on the world changed. More importantly, my view of myself changed. How I fit in the world evolved as a result of this and being with a man sexually is really something that becomes right. I guess I thought I could explain it better, but essentially, it is not one change but the whole perspective of life change that makes such a switch possible. I think a big part of it for me is a control thing. Trying to be a guy, we are supposed to be in control, including sexually. It was never a natural thing for me but its what I had and I did it. As a woman, my joy, my natural inclination is vulnerability. It is now allowed and it is pretty compelling to give a certain control over to a man. The thought now fits in with my identification as a woman. You start having guys treat you different, and the way you interact is no longer as one of them but as something apart. You start liking their attention and you like being noticed, maybe being checked out if you are lucky. They become attractive to you. It's surprising, a lot weird at first, and pretty damn inconvenient.
Moni:
I'll just postulate you've given this way too much thought. ;-)
This is / has been a question that has run through my mind occasionally.
Traditionally I have been attracted to, loved, and married another woman.
Yet, while I'm not there yet physically, I can easily see a post-op Kate happily sharing her body with a man that truly loves her and is committed to the fiercely independent woman she is.
I can't explain it. All I can say sex absent the vagina is very repulsive to me. Sex,post-op, I think I want to enjoy.
Go figure?
Kate
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For all of my life I've only been attracted to women. I mean I never even once fantasized about being with a guy. I used to think that if I were ever able to have SRS, I would remain attracted only to women, thus I would be a lesbian.
But something has changed within me the past few months. Once I decided that I would definitely be transitioning into the person I've always known I really was, all of my fantasies and dreams have revolved around being with men. In those fantasies and dreams I'm a completely transitioned woman having already had the SRS. In all honestly I believe that I will become bisexual if I'm ever able to afford the SRS.
I've been reading up on the phenomenon of people's attractions changing after SRS, because I've been stumped about my changing attractions. Them magazine published a very interesting article just last June and it has some really good info in it. Here's the link if anyone's interested.
https://www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition
Hope this helps!
xoxo
Lexxi
I'm not a very sexual person, but women are usually who I crush on. However, I wouldn't be opposed to dating a boy if he was mature and in touch with his feelings. However, from a purely sexual standpoint, I've had the most exposure to women, and feel most comfortable around naked women than naked men.
Also, I'm super picky. And I've only ever liked one trans women in my life (but she's engaged and straight 😭)
For most of my life I thought I was straight (cisgender man attracted to women). However, a part of me wondered if something was off. From the first time I ever had any kind of intimate fantasy, I envisioned myself as a woman being made love to by a man. This actually continued through even today. The funny thing is that I've always preferred women. I've even explored the possibility of male-male attraction and concluded that while I do have some gay tendencies, I could never see myself actually dating, falling in love with or sleeping with a man. However, I've always had a strong attraction to women. So I guess that according to the Kinsey scale (if you consider Kinsey's scale an accurate measurement of one's sexuality), then I suppose I'd be a Kinsey 1, which is considered bisexual.
Now that I've come to accept myself as the transgender woman I have always been but never knew, I largely consider myself a lesbian, but in truth I'm bi.
Quote from: jkredman on May 24, 2019, 11:55:01 PM
Moni:
I'll just postulate you've given this way too much thought. ;-)
This is / has been a question that has run through my mind occasionally.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kate, are saying I'm horny? lol Hmmmmm, maybe you're right! >:-)
I have been attracted to women all my life, and I am still only attracted to them. Orchi or not, HRT or not, my sexual orientation has not changed a bit!
Can I throw a wrench into some theories?
I'm not sure my sexuality so much "changed" as it opened up the moment I began to explore transition. The moment I realized I really was going to be going down this road of transition. Before I'd even had my first gender therapy session and months before I even began HRT.
Assuming our brains are hardwired to our true gender from birth and some just may not recognize it for whatever reason until later in life, I'm guessing when I thought I was "honestly" asking myself constantly if I was "gay" as a boy and man and always coming up with "no" as an answer, I was not able to access some part of my psyche, whether it was social pressure or conditioning, I'm not sure. I think that once I realized I would be living in the world as a woman my brain somehow allowed itself to open my thinking to my true nature in that, yes, I loved girls and then women, but guess what! I also have this inner desire to be with a guy! To love and be loved by a guy! To...um...be intimate with a guy!
It gets weirder...I thought I would have had GRS long, long ago. It didn't happen that way. I've been stuck with this dangly bit for far too long and GRS seemed too far out of reach for me. While I did end up marrying a man, I'm so uncomfortable with my bit, even post-orchie, that I have no desire to have it even seen, much less utilized, so we've had a sexless marriage. It's caused major issues for both of us to the point that we're in a holding pattern until we just sign the paperwork to finalize our divorce.
I started thinking that I wanted to be with a woman again. I want to experience physical and emotional intimacy with a woman for the first time in I-don't-know-how-long.
I was suddenly given huge good news a couple of months ago and was able to begin exploring the possibility of having GRS, finally! But my searching and searching was not encouraging. Prices have gone up considerably since I first looked into this 16 years ago so it began to feel just as out of reach as it had for the last decade or more. A couple of days ago I found out that two local clinics took my insurance when previously they didn't! Woah! This might actually happen! HF!
Now, with the very real possibility that I might finally have a place to put a guy's bits and get enjoyment out of it, I'm kinda changing my mind again! To finally experience proper sex with a guy is starting to awaken my long-dormant libido. There are stirrings down there, but they radiate to my entire being!
I'm even thinking that there might be a possibility my marriage might be saved, but realistically, I'm pretty sure it's too far gone to be resuscitated. :(
So...where the hell am I going to find a guy that finds tomboys that like to use machinery and work in CG attractive?
I'm weird.
Happymoni you explained succinctly a lot of the thoughts going through my mind concerning this,as have others...nice contributions Ladies, I guess if I am honest with myself I too would be interested after grs...I also have had the experience of when I was very young fantasizing of having a sex with a man ....oddly enough before I even knew about masturbation or any sex experience,
Interesting about the vulnerability point....I feel the same way...
Quote from: Tribble on May 25, 2019, 10:16:12 AM
Can I throw a wrench into some theories?
The weird or crazy thing about this is our differences. There is no theory that holds for everyone, I think. Drexy seems to relate to some of what I said. You or someone else could have a very different perspective. There is no explanation that works for everyone. LOL, I spend way to much time thinking about this according to Kate (my friend), maybe because this is something that has affected my life, in some ways, made it more difficult. Plus, the subject is pretty damn interesting in my opinion. The fact that when we transition, we jump from one role in this world to another. If we indeed evolve in who we are, why would it be a surprise that we interact with the world with different eyes, with different desires. It is no surprise that we keep some things either. In the past, I felt there were some who felt that my story was one of suppressing desire for men early on and that when I transitioned, I let my true sexual orientation come out. That left me feeling invalidated because that was not my experience. Anyone out there who finds that through the experience of finding their true self (transition or not) that they view things differently, well, I would want them to feel it is valid, maybe scary, but legitimate. There are no wrong answers to this pop quiz! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
when I transitioned, I let my true sexual orientation come out. That left me feeling invalidated because that was not my experience. Anyone out there who finds that through the experience of finding their true self (transition or not) that they view things differently, well, I would want them to feel it is valid, maybe scary, but legitimate. There are no wrong answers to this pop quiz! ;D ;D ;D
As I stated several times, I wish I would be able to have a wider range of sexual orientation.
Could it be that you were Bi, just had that part of your sexuality suppressed, and with HRT you allowed it to surface?
Reading here how many of you people have the chance to love both genders and any possible gender in between, I feel really left out with my very straight lesbian orientation!
Having the body I have (biologically), I wonder if I never was heterosexual, just acted like it because I dealt with women only, and my heavily female body was always equipped with a lesbian sexual orientation?
I wonder if they would dissect my brain once I am dead, and what weird interconnections they would find there.
Kind like:
Linde the biological experiment = how weird a human body and brain can be constructed?
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
The weird or crazy thing about this is our differences. There is no theory that holds for everyone, I think...There are no wrong answers to this pop quiz! ;D ;D ;D
Absolutely! This was brought up in group last night. Someone asked if we all feel dysphoria differently, I the resounding answer was "YES!" The same can and should be said about sexuality.
I really did think that I was being honest with myself when my inner voice asked if I was "gay" in my younger years. Now, it's entirely possible I was bi and didn't realize it and had succumbed to societal pressures, but it's also totally possible that, given my new role in society that my entire world-view had changed! I do get that you feel that others telling you that you were repressing pre-transition as invalidating. The fact is that no one can really
tell you what your
real thoughts and feelings are or how they've changed over the years. Not a layperson, and not even most therapists.
I have a funny story about the first MMPI I took when I was 17, but I'll relay that somewhere else or in private to whoever wants to hear as it's not related to sexuality. Let's just say that I don't entirely trust the results of that test!
To continue my own story as it seems to be in flux right now, I've been thinking that I would probably rather be with a woman again than a man after my husband and I finalize our divorce. I honestly have no control over who I fall in love with, but that was my "goal". I just found out that I may finally be able to get GRS soon (!!!) and my thoughts have suddenly changed again! Or, they're beginning to. I'm like, "Ooh! I'll finally have the right parts and if I date a guy I'll be able to use them 'properly!'" (To all lesbians, no, I don't believe one way to use a vag is more 'proper' than any other. But new possibilities may have just opened up for me! :D )
So, I'm still in a state of discovery after all of these years!
Quote from: Linde on May 26, 2019, 10:33:41 AM
As I stated several times, I wish I would be able to have a wider range of sexual orientation.
Could it be that you were Bi, just had that part of your sexuality suppressed, and with HRT you allowed it to surface?
Reading here how many of you people have the chance to love both genders and any possible gender in between, I feel really left out with my very straight lesbian orientation!
Having the body I have (biologically), I wonder if I never was heterosexual, just acted like it because I dealt with women only, and my heavily female body was always equipped with a lesbian sexual orientation?
I wonder if they would dissect my brain once I am dead, and what weird interconnections they would find there.
Kind like: Linde the biological experiment = how weird a human body and brain can be constructed?
Oh, Linde! I understand how you feel, at least on some base level. I wish I could've been happy as a "straight man" prior to transition! And in all these years being with a guy I've had this intense sadness that I'll never be with another woman. That I'll never again taste..well, we won't go there.
Each of us is different. I
do have a feeling that everyone is bi on some level and that some people are more open to exploring that about themselves, but my theory is no more valid than anyone else's and I don't judge. I'll tell ya, when I was in a long-distance relationship with a girl in England and I was in my parents' basement and they were watching "Whose Line is it, Anyway?" and two of the male comedians kissed and both of my parents mentioned that they couldn't see themselves kissing someone of their own gender, it hurt. They knew I was in the background. They knew I was in a lesbian relationship. It almost felt like they were sending me some sort of hint.
On the other hand, my dad used to have a saying that "If a person thinks or does it, it's natural." My mom told me that when I was worried about how he'd feel when I came out.
Quote from: Lexxi on May 25, 2019, 01:44:50 AM
For all of my life I've only been attracted to women. I mean I never even once fantasized about being with a guy. I used to think that if I were ever able to have SRS, I would remain attracted only to women, thus I would be a lesbian.
But something has changed within me the past few months. Once I decided that I would definitely be transitioning into the person I've always known I really was, all of my fantasies and dreams have revolved around being with men. In those fantasies and dreams I'm a completely transitioned woman having already had the SRS. In all honestly I believe that I will become bisexual if I'm ever able to afford the SRS.
I've been reading up on the phenomenon of people's attractions changing after SRS, because I've been stumped about my changing attractions. Them magazine published a very interesting article just last June and it has some really good info in it. Here's the link if anyone's interested.
https://www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition
Hope this helps!
xoxo
Lexxi
Hi Lexxi,
That was an interesting article. Just to add my two cents, I was never attracted to men pre-transition, but once I started HRT, my attitude regarding men as sexual partners went from "Ewww!" to "Hmmm..." .
Post-SRS I have had several sexual encounters with men, and my sexual fantasies have always involved penetration, with me being a woman in a sexually submissive role.
I guess I am in my "second transition", as the article puts it. I believe gender identity is hard-wired, but sexual orientation is malleable, and depends on what is socially acceptable, and what you find attractive. Since I am totally immersed in a female social role, it is completely acceptable, even expected, that I find men attractive, so I let myself go there. I still like women, and may even prefer them in many ways, but I do love penetration (even though for me it still hurts). I love having a man on top of me, thrusting inside me. Toys are just not the same.
As other posters have stated, I don't believe our sexual orientation changes through the process of transition, so much as it may expand. I ended up being bisexual. The dating pool for a 61 year-old transsexual is pretty small, so I am not going to exclude half the population when it comes to finding that special person I could potentially spend the rest of my life with.
~Terri
Quote from: Tribble on May 26, 2019, 10:51:01 AM
a feeling that everyone is bi on some level and that some people are more open to exploring that about themselves, but my theory is no more valid than anyone else's
Tribble, if that theory could be true, i have to tell you that my Bi orientation is the very best hidden secret inside my brain. It mus be in a corner that I never ever visited before, because never in my life (at least what I can recall) I have ever contemplated to even hug or kiss a guy! I was girls/women only, nothing else! And it does not look like that this will change (I wish it would)!
However, I will remain open for it, and hope that SRS would do something, but I would not bet anything valuable on this!
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
In the past, I felt there were some who felt that my story was one of suppressing desire for men early on and that when I transitioned, I let my true sexual orientation come out. That left me feeling invalidated because that was not my experience.
I'm pretty sure we've responded to these sexuality threads and having differing experiences with attraction, I hope you never felt that from me. I certainly didn't intend that if you did. While I believe that transition doesn't cause a change in orientation, it doesn't mean that if there is a change that it's from a previously suppressed attraction.
I don't believe there are any universal truths in regards to transition or attraction and orientation. When previously stating that my orientation has not changed, I sometimes felt a vibe from some others of "it will".
I was aware that some had changed orientation with transition so knew that was possible. My experience has been no change. My electrologist mounted a TV on her ceiling for clients to watch and the other day she was drooling over a guy on the show I'm currently watching there (Schitt's Creek) and I'm just like "if you say so". I have no idea what makes a guy "hot".
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Quote from: Tribble on May 25, 2019, 10:16:12 AM
Can I throw a wrench into some theories?
I'm not sure my sexuality so much "changed" as it opened up the moment I began to explore transition. The moment I realized I really was going to be going down this road of transition. Before I'd even had my first gender therapy session and months before I even began HRT.
Assuming our brains are hardwired to our true gender from birth and some just may not recognize it for whatever reason until later in life, I'm guessing when I thought I was "honestly" asking myself constantly if I was "gay" as a boy and man and always coming up with "no" as an answer, I was not able to access some part of my psyche, whether it was social pressure or conditioning, I'm not sure. I think that once I realized I would be living in the world as a woman my brain somehow allowed itself to open my thinking to my true nature in that, yes, I loved girls and then women, but guess what! I also have this inner desire to be with a guy! To love and be loved by a guy! To...um...be intimate with a guy!
It gets weirder...I thought I would have had GRS long, long ago. It didn't happen that way. I've been stuck with this dangly bit for far too long and GRS seemed too far out of reach for me. While I did end up marrying a man, I'm so uncomfortable with my bit, even post-orchie, that I have no desire to have it even seen, much less utilized, so we've had a sexless marriage. It's caused major issues for both of us to the point that we're in a holding pattern until we just sign the paperwork to finalize our divorce.
I started thinking that I wanted to be with a woman again. I want to experience physical and emotional intimacy with a woman for the first time in I-don't-know-how-long.
I was suddenly given huge good news a couple of months ago and was able to begin exploring the possibility of having GRS, finally! But my searching and searching was not encouraging. Prices have gone up considerably since I first looked into this 16 years ago so it began to feel just as out of reach as it had for the last decade or more. A couple of days ago I found out that two local clinics took my insurance when previously they didn't! Woah! This might actually happen! HF!
Now, with the very real possibility that I might finally have a place to put a guy's bits and get enjoyment out of it, I'm kinda changing my mind again! To finally experience proper sex with a guy is starting to awaken my long-dormant libido. There are stirrings down there, but they radiate to my entire being!
I'm even thinking that there might be a possibility my marriage might be saved, but realistically, I'm pretty sure it's too far gone to be resuscitated. :(
So...where the hell am I going to find a guy that finds tomboys that like to use machinery and work in CG attractive?
I'm weird.
In some progressive places like Portland OR or Austin TX keeping it weird is an expectation and celebration ;) :D
Quote from: TonyaW on May 26, 2019, 11:15:07 AM
I'm pretty sure we've responded to these sexuality threads and having differing experiences with attraction, I hope you never felt that from me. I certainly didn't intend that if you did. While I believe that transition doesn't cause a change in orientation, it doesn't mean that if there is a change that it's from a previously suppressed attraction.
I don't believe there are any universal truths in regards to transition or attraction and orientation. When previously stating that my orientation has not changed, I sometimes felt a vibe from some others of "it will".
I was aware that some had changed orientation with transition so knew that was possible. My experience has been no change. My electrologist mounted a TV on her ceiling for clients to watch and the other day she was drooling over a guy on the show I'm currently watching there (Schitt's Creek) and I'm just like "if you say so". I have no idea what makes a guy "hot".
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Awe Tonya, see the mess I stirred up on this thread, bad Moni! Haha, actually discussion is good. Hopefully it fosters understanding. No, I never got a bad feeling from you. You are confusing me a bit now though. You say you don't think transition causes orientation change, but if it happens, it is not necessarily because of suppression. Do I have that right? I honestly don't understand how this would all mesh together.
While I am talking not understanding, I'll include why anyone tells you that it's inevitable that your orientation will change. That is unknowable to anyone but you. Also, I don't understand why Linde wants to be attracted to men. I hope it is not because of social pressure. I think you are great the way you are. I hope this doesn't cause you distress, because you do like women and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't like being attracted to men because of the potential harm that desire might have for loved ones. It doesn't fit my life. That's my distress!
I think my process was described pretty well earlier. If I was bi, it was a surprise to me. Maybe in the sense of having two seeds buried deep underground and one gets watered and grows while the other is nothing but a hidden potential. Maybe. I never had the hots for any guy in grammer school on up through college and onward. I didn't get nervous around them or think them cute or want to be close to them. Nothing, nodda! My transition happened along with all it's changes. Now, the female body might cause me jealousy. I see a hot girl and check out her clothes or a body shape I might wish I had, but I would be lost as to going to bed with her. Guys, much different story. No need for details. I don't see this as bi. I don't see it as suppression, then or now. It is maybe the other seed being watered now, I can't say. It is real, I'm pretty sure.
Definitely ladies, even though I just started to transition I see myself as a gay woman.
Cayla x
I've identified as bisexual since I was a teenager. Later I learned the term pansexual and that fit a bit better. I'm also polyamorous and have been that most of my adult life, so having that sort of fluidity may or may not have had an impact on my sexual preference.
My orientation is the same post hormones and transition. This is a fascinating subject to me and I'd love to see it studied in depth.
Within my orientation, there have been subtle changes. I'd say I became a bit more attracted to men but I still have a type of male that attracts me, they fit both a physical and personality type. Whereas, I remain attracted to a wider band of women. More men have approached me post coming out, so maybe that is a factor.
My libido took a nosedive the first year of transition but began has since returned in a better "softer" way. Since splitting with my long-term partner, I have dated something like five women and one male. Today I have both a female and male partner.
As I was starting from a more fluid state, it is difficult to say that hormones definitely affected my attractions but as I said there have been subtle changes.
I am attracted to women only.
Chrissy
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
Also, I don't understand why Linde wants to be attracted to men. I hope it is not because of social pressure. I think you are great the way you are. I hope this doesn't cause you distress, because you do like women and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't like being attracted to men because of the potential harm that desire might have for loved ones. It doesn't fit my life. That's my distress!
It is kind of a stupid reason that i hope I would be attracted to men. I hate to be alone, I am alone for a rather long time now, but that was because i was not ready to have somebody else after the love of my live left me. Later i was so busy with becoming a woman, I did have no desire to get another factor into my life. I feel that i have arrived pretty much at my "end station" for a while now, and now the loneliness is surfacing again. I want to have a partner who i can share my life with! It is a fact that only about .2% of the US women are lesbians, which means the pool of possible partners for me is pretty limited. However, if I would find attractions with men, the partner pool would grow astronomically, and I would have a way better chance to not be alone anymore!
I just really hope that I have this hidden, unknown to me Bi tendency, and that it will come to surface once I had SRS?
I love women, but I hate to be "just" a lesbian!
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 26, 2019, 01:22:38 PM
I am attracted to women only.
Chrissy
You and I are in the same, very disliked by me, boat! If you have a wive, hang on to her for your dear life, because finding another loving female is almost impossible once your reached a certain age!
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
Awe Tonya, see the mess I stirred up on this thread, bad Moni! Haha, actually discussion is good. Hopefully it fosters understanding. No, I never got a bad feeling from you. You are confusing me a bit now though. You say you don't think transition causes orientation change, but if it happens, it is not necessarily because of suppression. Do I have that right? I honestly don't understand how this would all mesh together.
I'll try to clean that up a bit.
Transition in and of itself does not cause a change in orientation or attraction or else it would happen to everyone. It didn't happen for me but did for you. Unless there is an acknowledged suppressed previous attraction (which you don't acknowledge so there is no reason anyone should believe otherwise) its impossible to say why it changes for some and not for others.
I do understand your distress about it, as it has been my wife's biggest fear regarding my transition that I will become attracted to men.
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Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
I think my process was described pretty well earlier. If I was bi, it was a surprise to me. Maybe in the sense of having two seeds buried deep underground and one gets watered and grows while the other is nothing but a hidden potential.
I love this description!
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 12:37:34 PMMaybe. I never had the hots for any guy in grammer school on up through college and onward. I didn't get nervous around them or think them cute or want to be close to them. Nothing, nodda!
It was the same for me, which is why I always came up with "no" when I asked myself if I was into guys. No attraction, whatsoever.
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 12:37:34 PMMy transition happened along with all it's changes. Now, the female body might cause me jealousy. I see a hot girl and check out her clothes or a body shape I might wish I had, but I would be lost as to going to bed with her. Guys, much different story. No need for details.
YES!
Now, throw in being bi (more accurately, pan), I have a hard time distinguishing attraction and admiration. I guess this is far more common among lesbians or lesbian attractions than I realized. I thought I was just weird in that.
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 12:37:34 PMI don't see this as bi. I don't see it as suppression, then or now. It is maybe the other seed being watered now, I can't say. It is real, I'm pretty sure.
Suppression is probably the wrong word and I really do love the way you describe it. It's not that we weren't suppressing it, even subconsciously, but more that the little seed didn't take yet. It hadn't been nurtured, watered, as you put it.
Both plants are thriving in me now, so one didn't start growing and one didn't wilt away.
_____________
@Linde, if you think the lesbian pool is small, the pool of men that are willing to knowingly date trans women is even smaller from my experience. I'm afraid I don't have any hard statistics on this.
While my husband says he only thinks about me as a man, some things have come out to make me think there's an asterisk behind that claim. *I'm pretty sure he sees me as a woman with the added benefit of a dick and when he realized that dick was no longer functional as it previously had been, he started to lose interest in our relationship and he's only gotten more distant over the years. I'm not at all saying that's his only reason for wanting to exit, but it sure plays into it, along with me effectively being asexual while I don't have the right parts. No libido doesn't help.
Quote from: Tribble on May 26, 2019, 03:24:59 PM
Both plants are thriving in me now, so one didn't start growing and one didn't wilt away.
The only things I have growing are my love handles, my boobs (I just did the Rediit calculator and found out that I need C cups now, no wonder that I did not like my current bras), and my frustration that it seems to take for ever to get SRS!
Quote
@Linde, if you think the lesbian pool is small, the pool of men that are willing to knowingly date trans women is even smaller from my experience. I'm afraid I don't have any hard statistics on this.
But if I am Bi, I could draw at least on both of those pools!
For me, I've always been attracted to women, and one in particular.
C -
Quote from: TonyaW on May 26, 2019, 02:32:40 PM
I'll try to clean that up a bit.
Transition in and of itself does not cause a change in orientation or attraction or else it would happen to everyone. It didn't happen for me but did for you. Unless there is an acknowledged suppressed previous attraction (which you don't acknowledge so there is no reason anyone should believe otherwise) its impossible to say why it changes for some and not for others.
I do understand your distress about it, as it has been my wife's biggest fear regarding my transition that I will become attracted to men.
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Okay Tonya, I see your logic I think. If transition was just wearing the opposite sex's clothes, using a different bathroom, and some of the more obvious transition related items, I might agree with you. Also your conclusion postulates that all transitions and people going through them are the same. My prediction on my transition, despite my early proclamations to friends that, "I'll still be the same person!" was definitely far from the mark. I have undergone tremendous change with my transition. Specifically, I had huge changes with my self image and how I relate to others. I feel like this thing we go through is highly individual. What it has done to me, for me would affect someone with a different personality quite differently. My gender change facilitated my orientation change. There is no other event that caused this. For someone else, it could be entirely different.
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 09:47:12 PM
Okay Tonya, I see your logic I think. If transition was just wearing the opposite sex's clothes, using a different bathroom, and some of the more obvious transition related items, I might agree with you. Also your conclusion postulates that all transitions and people going through them are the same. My prediction on my transition, despite my early proclamations to friends that, "I'll still be the same person!" was definitely far from the mark. I have undergone tremendous change with my transition. Specifically, I had huge changes with my self image and how I relate to others. I feel like this thing we go through is highly individual. What it has done to me, for me would affect someone with a different personality quite differently. My gender change facilitated my orientation change. There is no other event that caused this. For someone else, it could be entirely different
Oh god, I hope I'm not saying all transitions are the same. As many different ones as there are trans people.
"My gender change facilitated my orientation change. There is no other event that caused this."
I know I'm probably not going to say this right either but I think maybe its that I'm thinking in general terms that transitioning doesn't cause those changes since not everyone gets them. You are right in that transition does change a person and that your transition is responsible for those changes in you.
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Quote from: TonyaW on May 26, 2019, 10:31:44 PM
Oh god, I hope I'm not saying all transitions are the same. As many different ones as there are trans people.
"My gender change facilitated my orientation change. There is no other event that caused this."
I know I'm probably not going to say this right either but I think maybe its that I'm thinking in general terms that transitioning doesn't cause those changes since not everyone gets them. You are right in that transition does change a person and that your transition is responsible for those changes in you.
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Tonya, how about this? Orientation change is not a usual outcome for someone who transitions but in some people the two things can be closely associated. Oh, oh, oh, my kingdom for a way to do a Venn diagram here, lol. You have a circle for gender transition and a circle for orientation change, bla, bla, bla. Gosh, 14 year old me knew that that would come in handy one day. :P
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 26, 2019, 10:55:14 PM
Tonya, how about this? Orientation change is not a usual outcome for someone who transitions but in some people the two things can be closely associated. Oh, oh, oh, my kingdom for a way to do a Venn diagram here, lol. You have a circle for gender transition and a circle for orientation change, bla, bla, bla. Gosh, 14 year old me knew that that would come in handy one day. [emoji14]
Entirely possible I'm the unusual one that doesn't have any changes, though quick unscientific survey of this thread would say half or more noticed some change.
And here's a lovely venn diagram to muddy everything up.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/eeb2db5c147acacd7fba593761929a75.jpg)
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Quote from: TonyaW on May 27, 2019, 07:04:24 AM
Entirely possible I'm the unusual one that doesn't have any changes, though quick unscientific survey of this thread would say half or more noticed some change.
And here's a lovely venn diagram to muddy everything up.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/eeb2db5c147acacd7fba593761929a75.jpg)
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I'm speechless! Now that's a Venn Diagram! It's as simple as a chart of the characters on
Game of Thrones.Yikes!
Megan said something on another thread that made great sense to me. She said that, for her, gender is the basis on which sexuality is built. In my case, I think this was true. (For others, maybe not.) My basis before was 'male try to be.' My orientation was built on that. Now my basis is female, and for me, orientation has shifted to fit that foundation.
Quote from: HappyMoni on May 27, 2019, 10:47:02 AM
I'm speechless! Now that's a Venn Diagram! It's as simple as a chart of the characters on Game of Thrones.Yikes!
Megan said something on another thread that made great sense to me. She said that, for her, gender is the basis on which sexuality is built. In my case, I think this was true. (For others, maybe not.) My basis before was 'male try to be.' My orientation was built on that. Now my basis is female, and for me, orientation has shifted to fit that foundation.
You seemed to get a little excited talking of venn diagrams so thought you might like that one.
I get that idea of gender based sexuality. Seems there a quite a few that went from straight "man" to straight woman.
Quotes around "man" because I don't believe I was a man before transitioning but a trans woman that didn't know it yet so presented male.
Guess that would mean I've been a lesbian my whole life.
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I don't understand why they have intersex at the bottom of the diagram? Intersex has nothing to do with sexuality, because it is a biological condition!
I really don't like it that the way my intersex body is "designed" should influence my sexual orientation! I happened to be heterosexual, when i tried to be a man. But I bet that there are others with a similar intersex condition who might be gay while trying to be a man. I never had any clear gender identity, and that might be because i am intersex, but it sure has nothing to do with my sexual orientation.
I come across these kind of assumptions quite often, because "normal" people cannot even imagine how it is to live with a body who does not really know what it is. I live with this body for many years now (I was not able to find a better one over the years >:-), and I am still surprised to find out new things that are different or screwed up with me (biologically), and hardly any intersex person has identical conditions.
The one thing however, I know for sure is that my sexual orientation is a mental thing and has nothing to do with my more or less mixed gender body!
Quote from: Linde on May 27, 2019, 11:16:18 AM
I don't understand why they have intersex at the bottom of the diagram? Intersex has nothing to do with sexuality, because it is a biological condition!
I really don't like it that the way my intersex body is "designed" should influence my sexual orientation! I happened to be heterosexual, when i tried to be a man. But I bet that there are others with a similar intersex condition who might be gay while trying to be a man. I never had any clear gender identity, and that might be because i am intersex, but it sure has nothing to do with my sexual orientation.
I come across these kind of assumptions quite often, because "normal" people cannot even imagine how it is to live with a body who does not really know what it is. I live with this body for many years now (I was not able to find a better one over the years >:-), and I am still surprised to find out new things that are different or screwed up with me (biologically), and hardly any intersex person has identical conditions.
The one thing however, I know for sure is that my sexual orientation is a mental thing and has nothing to do with my more or less mixed gender body!
I am truly sorry if something I posted offended and I certainly did not mean for this diagram to be taken seriously. I only posted it due to Moni's excitement over venn diagrams.
Its got male and female on the ends and the arrows pointing out that they are not orientations and should also point to the intersex area. Maybe whoever made it thinks placing that note immediately under the intersex area was enough to indicate that, but it its unclear even if that's what was intended.
It's also not inclusive of non binary people. I'd assume that they just ignored them and trans people rather than including them in male and female. At least they didn't separate us out.
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Quote from: TonyaW on May 27, 2019, 11:35:11 AM
I am truly sorry if something I posted offended and I certainly did not mean for this diagram to be taken seriously. I only posted it due to Moni's excitement over venn diagrams.
Its got male and female on the ends and the arrows pointing out that they are not orientations and should also point to the intersex area. Maybe whoever made it thinks placing that note immediately under the intersex area was enough to indicate that, but it its unclear even if that's what was intended.
It's also not inclusive of non binary people. I'd assume that they just ignored them and trans people rather than including them in male and female. At least they didn't separate us out.
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You did not offend me, it is just this way the body conditions of us intersex people get mixed up with gender and/or sexuality. We were born like this, different from most people, it is almost as if we were born without arm or with 4 arms, or whatever you can think of. Most of the time we can live like any other person, but sometimes this funny biological condition does not allow us to live like "normal" people.
However, as I said already, this has nothing to do with my sexual orientation, and also not if I am trans or not. Many intersex people live happily in the gender role they were assigned to, I tried ist for quite some time, and it did not work out in the long run.
And I transitioned, and my body condition was of an advantage for this, because I looked and felt mostly female already. Becoming a woman was almost like a piece of cake for me (one thing the biology of my body was helpful for me), but my sexual orientation was not influenced by any of this.
I was into women when I was a man, and I am into women now as a woman, nothing changed.
I do not want to connect my sexual orientation with my gender (I still have not a real solid gender identity).
I don't know if I am different in this than other trans women who lived in a clearly define body (cis male type), because I never had the feeling that my brain lived in the wrong body (and as I know now, my body was mostly female anyway, and that seemed to have been pretty OK for my brain).
Again, every intersex person is different, there are no real guidelines for chromosomes to follow, on how to mess up a body!