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I know that gender identity and sexual preference are two separate things. In my case I am AMAB but I indentify (for the most part) as female. I have not started transitioning (other than piercing my ears and electrolysis). When it comes to sexual fantasies and the act of sex itself I want to be a woman with a man. I want to feel feminine and look feminine. I want to be submissive for a man and be desired by him. In my current body I have absolutely no desire to have man on man sex. But if I have my wig, makeup, perfume, nails painted and female clothes on I am ready and willing to engage in sex with a man. (And no I don't believe this is just some fetish). Yes I have some gender dysphoria with my body during the workday (when I present as male) but it's not super intense. My dysphoria seems to be more with sex than anything else. I simply hate being male when it comes to sex. I dislike my male physic and not having womanly curves. I just want to be a girl physically and want to be with a straight manly man. With all this being said for me personally my decision to continue forward with transitioning is deeply influenced by my desire to be with the opposite sex as a woman. So essentially it would seem that my gender identity is affected in some capacity by sexual preference. Does this make sense and does anyone else experience this?

Hi Heather,               09 September 2018

It all boils down to whatever you want that makes you happy ... as long as you don't harm another human being. Do what you want and don't worry about what others think; it's really none of their business.

To answer your question, NO. I've wanted to be a female since I was a young boy. Sex had nothing to do with my desire to transition.

Enjoy your life, it's the only one you will ever have here on "Space Ship Earth."

Best Always, Love
Chris

For me, my sexual preference is largely secondary to the dysphoria I have about my body and to a lesser extent, in social situations.  I do find men attractive, but I also find women attractive.  The main thing I DON'T find attractive is my body.  Like you, I want to be female in sexual situations, but as I've never been with anyone, male or female, this is still somewhat hypothetical.

Only speaking for myself, but my sexual identity had nothing to do with my need to transition. Transition resolved the Gender Dysphoria I was suffering from.

As part of that journey my understanding of my own sexuality has deepened and is now much broader than it was, not because it's materially changed, but I'm now confident and secure in expressing it. X

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I've gotten variations on this question in some classes I've done.

My sexual orientation had no effect on my need to transition, my medical transition, or my seeking gender confirmation surgery.

"Did I want GCS so I can have sex with a man?"
"No, but I am really looking forward to having my girlfriend do me with a strap-on."  The answer is terrifying to a clueless straight guy as it points out how unnecessary he is!

I wanted GCS because I wanted to have a clitoris and vagina.

I don't see any connection between the two in my case.  I never had strong dysphoria about sex.  Yes, I had some about my male body, and a lot about the male social role, but not so much about sex.  In recent years, sex became less of an issue, and I now consider myself mostly asexual, with lesbian leanings.

No.

Truth be told, I had mostly assumed I would be alone the rest of my life anyway.

Quote from: Sarah1979 on September 09, 2018, 11:05:24 AM
For me, my sexual preference is largely secondary to the dysphoria I have about my body and to a lesser extent, in social situations.  I do find men attractive, but I also find women attractive.  The main thing I DON'T find attractive is my body.  Like you, I want to be female in sexual situations, but as I've never been with anyone, male or female, this is still somewhat hypothetical.

I want someone who is nice and spoons well. I may be asking for a lot.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on September 09, 2018, 05:52:26 PM
I want someone who is nice and spoons well. I may be asking for a lot.

As a transsexual woman, I had thought finding someone willing to not beat me to death was asking a lot.

Quote from: Sarah1979 on September 09, 2018, 06:08:49 PM
As a transsexual woman, I had thought finding someone willing to not beat me to death was asking a lot.

I consider that a huge plus in a partner.  Given the responses I collected from dating services in my experiment last year, yes, this is apparently asking a lot.

The only folks who have any idea what my life has been like have been other trans persons.  I have yet to encounter a cisperson with any sort of understanding of what this has been like.  Oh, my cis friends are accepting, but sometimes some pretty odd ideas surface.

Heather,
I transitioned a very long time ago, (I had my srs over 45 years ago with a colovaginoplasty upgrade in '84), so please forgive me if l have difficulty understanding how you posed your question. In short, l had the brain(?), thought patterns(?) Of a heterosexual female from my earliest memories.  I planned to grow up, marry a seriously handsome and loving man, and live happily ever after.
My fantasies generally involved serious and vigorous sex with a man. Many here might think of that as old fashioned, but it has worked for me since the early, '70's and through 3 marriages and innumerable boyfriends.
Yes. I wanted the body of a woman. That is what l needed and that is what l have had now for almost 5 decades. Not quite,  but almost.
What surprised me was that prior to my transition,  during my late teens, l was sexually active exclusively with females. The thought of sex with a man, as a man, with a mans body and equipment was abhorrent to me. No matter how l was dressed or "presenting" it was physically nauseating.
During the actual process of physically changing sex, the hormones,  the surgery,  etc., l was essentially asexual.  The recovery was very difficult and painful. Sex was the furthest thing from my mind.  However, as things stopped hurting and actually began feeling normal my natural inclination was towards men. When l realized that l was actually attractive to men and desirous, l found that  they were more than happy to keep me well dilated.
Sex has always been very special for me. I have always sought to keep it that way. Even in my advancing old age,  (I blew through 70 a couple years back), it still remains one of my favorite things to do. 😈😉😉😊😊😊😊

Quote from: Complete on September 09, 2018, 09:53:13 PM
Heather,
I transitioned a very long time ago, (I had my srs over 45 years ago with a colovaginoplasty upgrade in '84), so please forgive me if l have difficulty understanding how you posed your question. In short, l had the brain(?), thought patterns(?) Of a heterosexual female from my earliest memories.  I planned to grow up, marry a seriously handsome and loving man, and live happily ever after.
My fantasies generally involved serious and vigorous sex with a man. Many here might think of that as old fashioned, but it has worked for me since the early, '70's and through 3 marriages and innumerable boyfriends.
Yes. I wanted the body of a woman. That is what l needed and that is what l have had now for almost 5 decades. Not quite,  but almost.
What surprised me was that prior to my transition,  during my late teens, l was sexually active exclusively with females. The thought of sex with a man, as a man, with a mans body and equipment was abhorrent to me. No matter how l was dressed or "presenting" it was physically nauseating.
During the actual process of physically changing sex, the hormones,  the surgery,  etc., l was essentially asexual.  The recovery was very difficult and painful. Sex was the furthest thing from my mind.  However, as things stopped hurting and actually began feeling normal my natural inclination was towards men. When l realized that l was actually attractive to men and desirous, l found that  they were more than happy to keep me well dilated.
Sex has always been very special for me. I have always sought to keep it that way. Even in my advancing old age,  (I blew through 70 a couple years back), it still remains one of my favorite things to do. 😈😉😉😊😊😊😊

Thanks for your response Complete. I can identify with so much of what you've experienced. I can only hope that the second half of my life turns out as good as yours. Your early transition and all the crap you had to go though back in the 80's is truly inspiring and I have total respect and admiration for you. Thanks again! Heather

I haven't decided to transition (yet?) but I do feel more comfortable with sex as a woman.  Even just reading romance stories I always imagine myself as the woman if there's a man and woman.  I'm not very sexual in general though so I think it's more an extension of my dysphoria around my masculine body characteristics and expectations rather than something specifically related to sex.  I'm also bi/pansexual so it doesn't change who I'm attracted to but it feels a lot more comfortable to be a woman or seen as a woman.

So it's not the main thing causing me distress but it is a small part of it.

I don't think my sexual preference has much to do with my decision to transition  however, I have always, and still do, prefer to think of myself during sex as dominant.  Even though I've only been actively transitioning to male for less than two years, during sex, I have always seen myself with a penis.  I may eventually decide to have one surgically created, but even with this AFAB body, my mind during sex is male.

However, my choice in partners concludes that I'm gay, and apparently always have been, since I have always prefered men.

Ryuichi

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Quote from: heather3791 on September 09, 2018, 10:08:47 AMMy dysphoria seems to be more with sex than anything else.

       Heather I'll go with, second what Complete said. It was the persistent, amorous attentions of men, albiet "gay" at the time, that played a decisive role in my desire to transition.

Thank you, Heather.  I appreciate your kind words. Actually, except for the pain and discomfort associated with my recovery from srs, my transition was relatively drama free. For some reason people seem to think that things were really difficult in the 70's. I found it to be pretty simple and straight forward.  One year after srs, l was living a regular life as a young woman.

I actually wrote a super long TL:DR post in response to this question but decided nobody would read it or care so let me more succinctly try to add this.

I was never accepted into the world of boys and never looked or acted the part because that is simply not what I was in spite of the obvious contradictory anatomy. I entered kindergarten in 1960 and was immediately singled out creating major issues in my life until I graduated high school.

People had always been uncertain if I was a boy or a girl as long as I can remember and I grew up femme leaning androgynous looking but had the temperament, personality, manner and interests like any other girl which really seemed to bother and confuse a lot of these people. By 1967 or junior high/middle school (7th and 8th grade), the entire world including my parents and all the doctors I had been taken to from the time I was 10 pegged me as gay because of course at the time, that's  how gender atypicality was categorized because no one knew any better.

At 15, while out of school a month recovering from a violent homophobic attack that darn near ended me, I came to an understanding with my parents there was no way in holy hell I was ever going to grow up to be a man and somehow they just got it. Even as ridiculous and unheard of such a thing was, they said they had always known my true nature and who I was. We knew nothing about trans anything and had no directions or guidelines to follow but I ever increasingly moved out of androgyny as sort of just a natural progression and by the time I was 16, outside of my freakish life as a non-human it in school, it was rare that people didn't think I was a girl. I only got more "girl" after that. After years of talking to clueless doctors, I was officially diagnosed with "primary transsexualism" and started HRT the summer before my senior year at 17 in 1972,  which it seems was very rare for someone so young that long ago? Trans youth weren't even a recognized phenomenon nor had the concept of gender dysphoria come into usage yet and there were a lot of concerns about my age but nothing else made any sense. One of my psych evals even used some old Benjamin terminology when it was noted I was "completely psychosexually inverted". Whew! I'm glad at least the language is better these days even if things have gone a bit far in the PC direction.

Immediately upon graduation, even though I had been passing as a girl for several years, getting new IDs and stuff can be looked at as the end of my social transition but in reality, I had never been anything different to transition from so it was all a big non-issue. In other words, it was all kind of a moot. I had just grown up to be a girl with some sort of before transition and after transition point indiscernible because it all just organically manifested along the way somehow all by itself as the way things were just supposed to be. That sounds stupid, doesn't it but "being" a girl socially wasn't a big deal to me because that's what I'd always known myself to be and how I just came across to people. On the other hand, not being female and able use my body sexually as such nearly sucked the last bit of life out of my soul.

I lived the five years I had been on hormones and the four years since I had officially gone full time after getting out of high school in this sexual state of limbo. I had perfectly integrated, blended seamlessly into he world as a young woman and was completely accepted as female and was well beyond any sort of transition so when I did have SRS in 1977 at 22, you can bet that changing sex was all about being able to have sex at that point but it otherwise didn't have any effect on my daily life beyond the six weeks I took off work. Who I was going to have sex with was really irrelevant and it wasn't really until after surgery that I truly began to even discover what my preferences were. At now 63½, I still don't know what they are but it's been fun, interesting and sometimes hella exciting figuring them out. I've had my share of boyfriends and was reasonably promiscuous in my 20's and I was married to a wonderful man for 12 years but over the course of my lifetime, I've also had a couple of LTRs with other women as well. Go figure?

So no, sexual preference did not affect my "decision" to transition which was never a decision in the first place. It's just how I turned out. My sexual preferences did not did not lead me to surgery either but rather the ability to have sex as a female regardless of who I was with surely did.

Finally backing up what Complete said, people seem to think it was impossibly difficult to be trans, transition and be treated in the 1970's and the popular lore seems to be filled with nothing but horror stories from this era but if I got started on HRT as a 17 year old in 1972 while still in high school and had referrals and recommendations for surgery as soon as I turned 18, at least for me anyway, it wasn't as bad as people seem to think but I was pretty obviously "afflicted" and they didn't know what else to do with me but to proceed with what was considered at the time to be a grand experiment because of my age. Lack of funds was the only thing that made me wait until I was 22 for surgery, not gatekeeping. Yes, the way I was treated and some of the things that happened to me during my school years in a backward, redneck Arizona city are probably about as bad as you can imagine but after I graduated, with passing privilege I just easily got on with life with what we would now refer to as stealth as a regular girl and other than the sex and surgery thing, being trans was not and has not been a part of my life other than in minor ways.

I must admit Lisa I just got a lot out of that post. A friend of mine who lived as a girl in the 1980s as a teenager had a broadly similar story. In her words she never went through a transition she just was naturally feminine from the start and just expressed her innate self. Hormones and surgery simply corrected the minor detail.

Also pardon my ignorance but things have gone from the Harry Benjamin terminology to the PC direction. I am familiar with Harry but not PC?

Also I am in suspense over the resolution of " I have a friend I want to tell."

I do like reading your posts.

Kind regards, Kirsten


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While my experience was much different than Lisa's, in that outwardly at least, l had a very believable male presentation, my transition was not hindered in anyway by the so called "gate keepers". At the time of my srs, (early 70's), it was considered by my doctors as a "last ditch attempt" at saving my life. They were well aware that every other possible known avenue of treatment had be tried. We were all, the doctors and myself, at wits end. We all figured I had nothing left to lose.

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on September 11, 2018, 04:49:40 AM
I must admit Lisa I just got a lot out of that post. A friend of mine who lived as a girl in the 1980s as a teenager had a broadly similar story. In her words she never went through a transition she just was naturally feminine from the start and just expressed her innate self. Hormones and surgery simply corrected the minor detail.

Thanks, Kirsten. I'm of the opinion that a part of this whole trans thing includes a hyper awareness of the things we think of as gender, particularly our own. I think it is through this lens comes our "dysphoria". Realizing a long time ago, probably when I was a little kid, that these thoughts can become obsessive, perhaps destructive and can make you absolutely crazy if you let them, as difficult as it is I consciously try to not think about them too much which helps but inevitably this awareness is impossible to ignore entirely.

I've always known myself to be a girl but have been sensitive when it comes to thinking about or referring to myself as feminine. That seems more like what other people should say about me, not something I should say about myself? For convenience, I suppose I could describe myself the same way as your friend does and it would be accurate but it seems simplistic or maybe like thinking of myself as feminine is egotistically claiming something I might not be entitled to if others didn't see things the same way? Others saw something though, that's for sure.

What we define as masculine or feminine is so arbitrary and subjective anyway and there is no doubt our basis for these categorizations is influenced heavily by the socially constructed aspect of "gender". I don't think anyone is impervious to these so called norms? Friends have said I'm seen as a girly girl due to the trappings of femininity; hair, makeup, nails, dresses etc., but even now I don't know how that or what it is makes people see me as feminine even if I'm not feeling it? It must be something? Maybe it's a vibe, an attitude or energy I give off or who knows what but whatever it is, it's something I've just seemed to unconsciously radiate my whole life that sucked as a boy when I wasn't left alone because of it. I'm not sure if this is or was femininity that comes across per se as much as it is that I'm just a regular girl? I suck at knowing these things. Certainly I don't always feel feminine.

When I was little, I did not think of my behavior and manner as feminine. I didn't even think of it at all, however, others did and apparently I was perceived to have these "feminine" qualities which some seemed to take great delight in reminding me of. At the time I never quite got it. I certainly didn't "feel" feminine. In fact, I felt pretty awful and grossed out about having a boy's body and how I had to look and be known as because of it.

Nevertheless, from the 3rd grade on up after my hair had started growing out I didn't even look like other boys and most thankfully, was never part of their tribe either so like your friend, it's hard to define transition as something specific without a solid from starting point. You'd think with all I write I could come up with something better than it just happened but I don't have much more explanation for it than that.

Regardless, I didn't have to learn how to be a girl or unlearn how to be a boy. All that was just sort of built in or innate if you will and just how I grew up. My "transition" was going to the DMV with my mom, letters from my doctors and getting a new driving license. It took a couple hours. Okay, I know that seems simplistic too because there were years of struggle and scars getting there but it all just seemed the natural course of things and officially being a girl wasn't a big deal or anything different from the way I'd always been.

QuoteAlso pardon my ignorance but things have gone from the Harry Benjamin terminology to the PC direction. I am familiar with Harry but not PC?

"Politically Correct". It's hard to understand some of the perspectives and observations about modern day trans world ideology that might be made by some of us that have been around since dinosaurs roamed the earth and sometimes our views haven't been taken to kindly or have been controversial. I even took a voluntary few months off from this forum rather than be banned for having an unpopular opinions. It hasn't been quite so voluntary for others so in a way, my statement was just a little subtle dig intended to mostly go over people's heads and fly under the radar.

QuoteAlso I am in suspense over the resolution of " I have a friend I want to tell."

No resolution yet but we are just becoming better friends. New thing and kind of funny this past weekend is four different people who didn't know us wanted to know if I was her mom? Obviously we're close. We're both blonde too, both have our own definite styles and personalities that aren't to dissimilar, we look a lot alike and she definitely could be my daughter so she told everyone I was. We had a lot of fun with that and some of our regular friends picked up on it too so it's going to be a thing now. I told her privately later I was flattered that people would think I was her mom and not her grandmother. She jabbed me with a fork for thinking about my age. Would still like her to know - she knows everything else about me but for now anyway, I intend to just keep things to myself.

QuoteI do like reading your posts.

I feel sorry for you!  :)

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 10, 2018, 05:04:31 PM
Finally backing up what Complete said, people seem to think it was impossibly difficult to be trans, transition and be treated in the 1970's and the popular lore seems to be filled with nothing but horror stories from this era but if I got started on HRT as a 17 year old in 1972 while still in high school and had referrals and recommendations for surgery as soon as I turned 18, at least for me anyway, it wasn't as bad as people seem to think but I was pretty obviously "afflicted" and they didn't know what else to do with me but to proceed with what was considered at the time to be a grand experiment because of my age.

Over the years, on line, I have run into a reasonable number who transitioned in the 70's... People were doing it so obviously it was possible... and early on teh medical establishment (before Hopkins did the 180) could be surprisingly supportive in some cases...

Most (though not all) who did it back were reasonably physically (and often behaviorally) obviously feminine to start with... most of the clinics back then DID greatly favor accepting those that could pass well, particularly if they were attractive as woman.

I transitioned in the 90's, but my therapist was part of the gender clinic that existed here in the 70's. She told me flat out that I would not have been accepted by the clinic back then because of the sexists attitude (about looks) that existed back then. (I was here then, but back then had never heard of the clinic when it was active)

We are the same age (less than half a year apart from what you said). I was from a working class alcoholic single parent family that started out in the projects.

In the 70s  I simply did not believe it was possible for someone built big like I was/am, and since I was not obviously effeminate physically or behaviorally (though not macho either), I just tried to make a life and survive... until I could not any longer... But luckily by the 90's things started changing for the better for those like me. I managed to survive transition and had my surgery in 1998.

Having sex was not a factor in my decision to transition, though I was not comfortable being sexual before.

- Karen

A vague yes, indirectly.

I never thought of my sexuality as a reason to why I transitioned, but I did always feel like they were linked in some way. Back then, the thought of me being sexual with men as a man myself was exciting and comforting, but I couldn't quite get turned on by that thought. Instead I had to imagine myself as a woman in my fantasies to like it, and I couldn't understand why, but I called it a form of internalised transphobia and tried not to think about it.

During sex back then, I did feel awkward about my body, never knowing if my partners truly saw me as male or female, I had trouble relaxing and felt like I had to perform a gender role that I was not comfortable with. I thought of myself as a man, but did for the most part prefer female social gender roles.

And now in my detransition I suddenly understand why, all of that. Finally for the first time ever, the way I imagine myself in fantasies aligns with how I see my gender, which has released a lot of tensions and worries for me. And the way I have sex nowadays is much more enjoyable for me both mentally and physically. Well, my transition regret dysphoria aside, that is. But I feel a lot more "right" with myself, with my role, with how my partners see me, etc. It has provoked a very positive shift in my sexuality.

I saw myself as "post-transition" at the end of my time as a trans man, although I did not get lower surgery. I now see it as that I am "transitioned" although I've realised I was never trans. I now see myself as a cis woman, but my now male secondary sex characteristics (and lack of female ones) do not reflect how I see my gender, which makes me feel dysphoric in reverse to how I felt during and before my transition.

I now see sex as one way for me to finally live out my true self that I've kept hidden and pushed away for many years. And I think that's something anyone can do and find relief in, and it's not wrong at all.

The link I eventually found, between my transition and my sexuality, was that I suppressed my attraction to women because I refused to think of myself as a woman. Now that I'm accepting that, I do feel relief, but also sadness. I had previously thought of myself as a gay trans man, and I'm afab. So that's how I know my sexuality had something to do with why I transitioned, but it was very indirect and something I was unaware of until recently, and I began my transition back in 2009.

I think that sexuality and gender are always gonna be linked in some way or another, but that how and to what degree, is different for everyone.

I believe that sex can be a way to express gender as much as many other things can. And perhaps some people are more drawn to that option, while others may prefer other ways. While also, for some people sex is dysphoria inducing, but for others it's dysphoria alleviating.

Quote from: SeptagonScars on September 11, 2018, 08:15:05 PMI think that sexuality and gender are always gonna be linked in some way or another, but that how and to what degree, is different for everyone.

I believe that sex can be a way to express gender as much as many other things can. And perhaps some people are more drawn to that option, while others may prefer other ways. While also, for some people sex is dysphoria inducing, but for others it's dysphoria alleviating.

Very well said! I guess at the end of day we all have different links. And that's totally cool as far as I'm concerned. :)

When I was younger I always wanted attention from males. I remember even desiring attention from strangers sometimes...

But now as I've gotten older it's pretty much the opposite... I really only want comfort in my body and mind through transition.
I was fine with having gay sex for a while, but I stopped completely. Overtime I realized that emotionally and psychologically, I wasn't fulfilled at all. I thought I was crazy because sex isn't about that... But it really is and gender can play a very big role.

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Quote from: Michelle_P on September 11, 2018, 08:39:19 PM
There are some very well known early transitioners.

You do mean early in time and not early in life, right?

Certainly in 1970 when I seriously put my foot down with my folks about living as a girl I had heard about Christine Jorgensen and knew that people did change sex but I just didn't see any connection between her life and any of that to mine. As far as I was concerned, I already was a girl. What my parents knew, when they knew and what doctors told them about me other than I was "probably gay" is something I always wondered about. I lost them when I was 25 and wasn't really mature enough or distanced from all of this enough to ask by then.

I do know when I had my big talk with my folks, they said they didn't want to bring it up it before for "fear of putting ideas in my head" and had just been waiting for me to break or things to get bad enough for me to say it first. I've always suspected they were coached to do this but that's another thing I'll never know for sure. I won't say this talk was a "coming out" as I couldn't have been more out but it was more of coming to a mutual understanding but once my cards were on the table, I got pissed at them.

This "we were waiting for you to say it first" and "we've always known" business really irritated me and I felt a little betrayed. They'd been talking about the "it's okay if you're gay" thing from the time I was 12 but not this because I'm sure they were dreading how that conversation might have gone. Not that it would have made any difference, I still couldn't have done anything more than I did sooner. I reminded my mother I had constantly tried to tell her and my biological dad this when I was 5 or 6 and about the last time I said anything and was backhanded across the mouth hard enough to be knocked to the ground. She remembered and it made her cry. Thankfully, they split up right after that but the lesson was learned. It took me another ten years to say it again but by then, it was more than obvious.

Maybe I wasn't the brightest fifteen year old but my situation seemed so completely different from Christine Jorgensen's because I was just a kid that had never had a moment of normalcy and besides that, who had ever heard of kids changing sex anyway? I never thought of myself as one of "those people". On top of that, George, before becoming Christine, was a man that had been in the army and both of those things were things I knew I would never be or do so I just couldn't relate any of that to my life at all. I was already living full time as a girl when I read Jan Morris' 1974 book Conundrum and while I found it interesting, again, it didn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with my life experience.

I don't remember the exact timing but in 1977, the year I had SRS, Renée Richards was still making all the headlines and by then, I had been living "full time" in stealth for four years, on HRT for five years and thought the whole debacle was pretty cringy. That was kind of a life lesson because my own limited experience with school bullies hadn't prepared me for what the public really thought about transsexuals and how much hate there was but once again, my life had been nothing like that even though with Richards being the biggest generator of sensationalistic media since Jorgensen, my mother took great interest in her story as in most cases, this was when trans people first began to be talked about seriously in the mainstream and not just as comedic fodder or sick degenerate perverts. Funny how so much has changed in the 40+ years since then but really hasn't. All this did for me was drive me further into the woodwork. I wanted no part of this circus. (now who's the coward??)

QuoteSome of us didn't have access to these things, and were in a position as minors to have others in control of our medical care.  I realize there is a popular meme to tag some late transitioners with a bit of an onus for 'waiting so long'.

I've tried to imagine how differently things might have gone for me if I didn't have the intuitive parents and supportive environment I had and I simply can't. I wouldn't have survived. Trying to bridge the gap and make nice from the perspective of someone whose very life and future was contingent on dealing with this trans crap, when things are that fundamental, crucial and vital to your existence, it's hard to imagine how anybody that felt the same way, that they were really a girl, could "wait so long". I've made great strides in trying to understand this and things I've read here have helped tremendously but like Jorgensen, Morris, Richards, et al, it's just kind of hard to relate.

QuoteI waited a long time, out of sheer terror.  See, the thing about conversion therapy is that it sort of works.  A successfully treated patient will do or say almost anything to avoid being shoved in 'remedial treatment' (involuntary committment, prefrontal lobotomy for improved compliance, electroconvulsive and aversion therapy).  Even as an adult I had a terrible fear that I would be caught again and given the promised remedial treatment.

Yeah, even as a 10 year old when my folks first put me in "therapy" in 1965, I was aware of the danger of how the mentally ill were treated and was scared to death that if I did say what I knew to doctors, they'd take me away from my parents, lock me up and perform these medieval remediations so I got pretty good at stonewalling but geez, all you had to do was look at me to know. That's why it took me seven more years and being at the precipice of suicide before I would open up to a doctor even though it had been years since my parents had known and understood what was going on for me.

How I avoided the uglier side of all this is something I still don't know? My folks were more interested in helping me deal with how the outside world treated me and the problems I had in school after school rather than trying to change me which they knew was impossible anyway. Although I wasn't raised with religion, I probably haven't given enough credit to my step-dad for seeing I wasn't further harmed emotionally by all these "helpful" doctors. He was a former Lutheran pastor and practicing clinical psychologist who didn't really understand the trans thing at all either but recognized there was really nothing wrong with me and didn't want to see me even more screwed up than I already was.

None of my experiences with the medical profession were particularly pleasant but there is really only one I can think of that was downright horrible that happened in the 8th grade at the local university. Fifty years later and I still can't drive by ASU without thinking about that terrible day or remember the sweltering drive home crawled up in the back seat of my parent's car and crying probably harder than I ever had. I was pretty shook and refused to talk to any more doctors until after I was assaulted when I was 15 and I only did it then to make my parents happy as nearly being killed was a much bigger deal to them than it was to me. I was used to being abused and bullied but just not quite that badly but it was just another day. I went maybe half a dozen times but thought it was all pointless and stupid.

QuoteFeel free to call me a coward, or one of the other lovely terms I have heard used to describe we old transitioners.

Hang on now, remember where we are. Were you expecting me to call you names? You seem as sensitive about this as some of us young transitioners are when we're seen as spoiled and privileged, that we have things easy and handed to us on a silver platter, that we don't understand how difficult transition is for older folks or when we're put on a pedestal and idolized or fetishized as some kind of gold standard of transness. It works both ways you know? I don't know who started all this nonsense but we're seriously outnumbered so I'll play nice as long as others do and I've been working on trying to improve my understanding of your lives and hoping to maybe give insight into ours. I apologize if you've been treated poorly.

Your experiences are just so foreign to us it is hard to comprehend. As it seems I'm likely one of the oldest teen transitioning trans youth that people may come across, I should work harder to set an example but when your gang starts calling out my gang and it becomes us vs. them, it's hard not to be a little defensive and I know which side of the line drawn in the sand I stand and I don't like being put in this position. Your comments seem like you were being a little bit defensive as an offensive strategy but there's really no need? Stay off >-bleeped-< and Tumblr and away from rude punkass transkids and maybe you won't have to see these memes or hear this kind of thing?  I've done my best to avoid getting involved these conversations and apologize if my comments making a point were hurtful. They were not intended to be or to be taken personally. One of my closest confidantes and best email friends is a late transitioning woman I met from here.

Quote...now here I am, an old cowardly woman finishing up her transition.

Cowardly? I would have never had the strength and fortitude to do something so unimaginable. I don't even know how people can find it within themselves do this but it certainly doesn't seem to me to be something lacking in courage.

Sorry for writing another novel length wall of text. At least I used a lot of paragraphs.  :icon_redface:

Wow, there's a lot of great discussion in this thread. It seems to me there are multiple different topics that deserve their own threads. I'm sorry for those who will miss it because the thread title may not resonate for their particular situations. Not as a criticism but as an observation.

I'm sorry for any generational conflicts that have come up. As a late non-transitioner  LOL I think I can see both sides somewhat independently.

An interesting, if painful, observation from the postings of several of you, especially Lisa, is that being seen by society as in-between is more dangerous than being seen as binary, even if unusual. I don't pass as female, but the only really dirty look I've received has been when presenting as a male in female clothing.

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No, I've always been attracted to women and always will be. I've never even thought about being with a man, it's not the sexual organs, because  I'd be open to another trans girl, but the whole idea of masculinity just turns me off. All my partners have been bisexual and fairly foward, which worked for me because I've always considered myself a fem sub regardless of how I presented at the time. I guess if anything it would have been easier not to start transitioning if it were based on my sexuality.

I was really stuck on this for awhile, the idea that I had to like men if I was a girl and there was no point to transitioning if I don't like men.

Probably got the idea from a number of sources, people always insisting that I was a closeted gay man, combined with old ideas about being trans from decades ago. It really stuck in my head for a long time, and I don't know that it's totally out.

I just don't find men attractive. I've tried dating trans men, never made it past online, there wasn't really an attraction though it could have just been those particular guys. I don't even know what I would find attractive in a man, though I kind of still see myself as pansexual. I'm mostly into group sex anyway, though I think another girl has to be in the group for it to interest me. The whole monogamous relationship/marriage thing seems really boring to me, no matter what role I try to envision myself in.

Quote from: RandyL on September 12, 2018, 11:10:35 AM
Wow, there's a lot of great discussion in this thread. It seems to me there are multiple different topics that deserve their own threads. I'm sorry for those who will miss it because the thread title may not resonate for their particular situations. Not as a criticism but as an observation.

First of all, I'd like to apologize to heather3791 for my helping to send this thread careening off topic and over the cliff. I don't post in a lot of threads but in the ones I do, I tend to lose my mind and I am sorry. Maybe this bump will garner more responses to your original post and I can be somewhat forgiven for screwing up your thread?

Quote from: RandyLI'm sorry for any generational conflicts that have come up. As a late non-transitioner  LOL I think I can see both sides somewhat independently.

It's not so much that there are conflicts as such but there are some pretty big differences in the lives of trans youth and trans adults that often lead to debate and makes it challenging to see from the other's point of view. Occasionally things do go tribal and venomous barbs can fly when these differences are pointed out. Anyone ever involved in one of these shytshows usually either lets their hostility and hurt feelings fester with arms at the ready until the next time their tribe is impugned or sulks away feeling a bit sensitive and on the defensive like we've seen.

The commonality between these disparate groups is even though they're coming from opposite directions, the end goal of both is to end up at the same intersection which makes for some strange bedfellows and a co-mingling of lives between people that otherwise would have no other real connection. Occasionally this intersection is the site of a collision or two and a bit of road rage.

When these factions do align and come to debate, the arguments and criticisms coming from both sides are dependably predictable. Unfortunately, these things happen sometimes. No one walks away proud or as a winner but thankfully, these discussions around here are pretty rare and are usually quickly quashed before things get out of hand.

I have been as guilty of this as anyone at times in the past but am trying to learn to be more diplomatic which isn't always easy as I do have some strong opinions and some of my own battle scars even though I'm usually a pretty cool, calm and collected cookie or at least try to be but I'm human and don't always succeed.

I'm kind of an odd duck around these here parts anyway. Those that transitioned as teenagers are still very young and are very few. Those whose transness severely impacted their lives as grade school children and throughout all of their school years even fewer. If we go back to the 1960's and early 70's, they/we seem to be non-existent? Heck, even those of any age that had surgery before 1980 that are active here are few and far between and most of them are a good deal older than I am so it seems I am my own demographic? I've probably made note of it in every thread I've ever posted in here but that's kind of isolating.

Consider also I've lived my entire adult life stealthily in the cis-normative world outside of the LGB or T communities and been mostly oblivious to all things trans. About three years ago after thinking all my life I was the only one, discovering there were other kids like me, even if they are still kids, was quite an awakening. Beyond the young woman that opened my eyes to all of this, joining this forum a little over a year and a half ago is the first time I have ever interacted with other people of trans experience in over 40 years so I've come into this whole thing with a lot of history, background and experience but yet as a virtual neophyte full of innocence. I even had to look up the word transgender because I wasn't sure what it meant, how it was being used and to whom it applied.

Fortunately, I'm a quick study. After a good solid two years of reading and research examining the science and politics of all things trans from every angle, I've gotten up to speed and in some cases, sped away. Being from the days when you were either a full-blown transsexual, met the criteria and got medical care or you weren't and didn't, naturally I carry a lot of old school ideas and attitudes, some of which I've reconsidered, abandoned or will be stuck with for life.

The dichotomy between trans youth and later in life transitioning adults is one of those things that has become more clear to me than ever but it should be added, I don't think one is better or superior or more anything than the other - they're just different. Some would prefer we are all painted with the same broad brush, hold hands and sing Kumbaya and indeed, there are commonalities and things to be learned from each other but I don't think that denying our differences, our unique experiences and unique needs and perspectives or pretending they don't exist doesn't do either camp any favors. It is somewhat of a shame though that exploring these differences does inevitably elicit tribalism and finger pointing.

I apologize for going off on this. The matter of "generational conflicts" was raised and I took the opportunity to elaborate for greater understanding of the issue.

QuoteAn interesting, if painful, observation from the postings of several of you, especially Lisa, is that being seen by society as in-between is more dangerous than being seen as binary, even if unusual.

I would say your observation is pretty spot-on. Certainly, things aren't as bad as they used to be but this is still regional and depends on where you are, I think? After growing up in-between, being binary has been my safe space.

QuoteI don't pass as female, but the only really dirty look I've received has been when presenting as a male in female clothing.

The world has changed but not that much. Were you really expecting a different result? All I can say is watch your six. In my part of the country, that might be watch your six and carry a handgun! :)

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 13, 2018, 08:38:58 AM
First of all, I'd like to apologize to heather3791 for my helping to send this thread careening off topic and over the cliff. I don't post in a lot of threads but in the ones I do, I tend to lose my mind and I am sorry. Maybe this bump will garner more responses to your original post and I can be somewhat forgiven for screwing up your thread?

It's not so much that there are conflicts as such but there are some pretty big differences in the lives of trans youth and trans adults that often lead to debate and makes it challenging to see from the other's point of view. Occasionally things do go tribal and venomous barbs can fly when these differences are pointed out. Anyone ever involved in one of these shytshows usually either lets their hostility and hurt feelings fester with arms at the ready until the next time their tribe is impugned or sulks away feeling a bit sensitive and on the defensive like we've seen.

The commonality between these disparate groups is even though they're coming from opposite directions, the end goal of both is to end up at the same intersection which makes for some strange bedfellows and a co-mingling of lives between people that otherwise would have no other real connection. Occasionally this intersection is the site of a collision or two and a bit of road rage.

When these factions do align and come to debate, the arguments and criticisms coming from both sides are dependably predictable. Unfortunately, these things happen sometimes. No one walks away proud or as a winner but thankfully, these discussions around here are pretty rare and are usually quickly quashed before things get out of hand.

I have been as guilty of this as anyone at times in the past but am trying to learn to be more diplomatic which isn't always easy as I do have some strong opinions and some of my own battle scars even though I'm usually a pretty cool, calm and collected cookie or at least try to be but I'm human and don't always succeed.

I'm kind of an odd duck around these here parts anyway. Those that transitioned as teenagers are still very young and are very few. Those whose transness severely impacted their lives as grade school children and throughout all of their school years even fewer. If we go back to the 1960's and early 70's, they/we seem to be non-existent? Heck, even those of any age that had surgery before 1980 that are active here are few and far between and most of them are a good deal older than I am so it seems I am my own demographic? I've probably made note of it in every thread I've ever posted in here but that's kind of isolating.

Consider also I've lived my entire adult life stealthily in the cis-normative world outside of the LGB or T communities and been mostly oblivious to all things trans. About three years ago after thinking all my life I was the only one, discovering there were other kids like me, even if they are still kids, was quite an awakening. Beyond the young woman that opened my eyes to all of this, joining this forum a little over a year and a half ago is the first time I have ever interacted with other people of trans experience in over 40 years so I've come into this whole thing with a lot of history, background and experience but yet as a virtual neophyte full of innocence. I even had to look up the word transgender because I wasn't sure what it meant, how it was being used and to whom it applied.

Fortunately, I'm a quick study. After a good solid two years of reading and research examining the science and politics of all things trans from every angle, I've gotten up to speed and in some cases, sped away. Being from the days when you were either a full-blown transsexual, met the criteria and got medical care or you weren't and didn't, naturally I carry a lot of old school ideas and attitudes, some of which I've reconsidered, abandoned or will be stuck with for life.

The dichotomy between trans youth and later in life transitioning adults is one of those things that has become more clear to me than ever but it should be added, I don't think one is better or superior or more anything than the other - they're just different. Some would prefer we are all painted with the same broad brush, hold hands and sing Kumbaya and k, there are commonalities and things to be learned from each other but I don't think that denying our differences, our unique experiences and unique needs and perspectives or pretending they don't exist doesn't do either camp any favors. It is somewhat of a shame though that exploring these differences does inevitably elicit tribalism and finger pointing.

I apologize for going off on this. The matter of "generational conflicts" was raised and I took the opportunity to elaborate for greater understanding of the issue.

I would say your observation is pretty spot-on. Certainly, things aren't as bad as they used to be but this is still regional and depends on where you are, I think? After growing up in-between, being binary has been my safe space.

The world has changed but not that much. Were you really expecting a different result? All I can say is watch your six. In my part of the country, that might be watch your six and carry a handgun! :)

You should check out Mardi P. on youtube. She talks about being trans as a young teenager and transition a few decades ago like you did. She says a lot of her trans friends didn't make it sadly...

Here's a link to her channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClTl0Gxcj0-7ytj1wkDFoXw

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Quote from: Allison S on September 13, 2018, 08:49:30 AM
You should check out Mardi P. on youtube. She talks about being trans as a young teenager and transition a few decades ago like you did.

Hey thanks, Allison!

I'm familiar with Mardi P. and have been trying to get in touch with her privately but with me not having any social media accounts, I haven't had much luck. I know she's friends with YouTuber Brittanie Daniels (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbXl7JRqNaRPeXiE-lNbHSw) and I thought she might be able to pass my info along for me? I sent an email to Brittanie's two year old email address I had on file but haven't heard back from her so I'm guessing it no longer works? I'll probably have to tune into one of Mardi's live chats but hate doing anything publicly. I've made two YouTube comments in the history of YouTube.

QuoteShe says a lot of her trans friends didn't make it sadly...

No shade but considering her lifestyle, it's kind of a surprise she did make it.

I know both of them dealt with their transness in their teens but I'm 7 years older than Mardi and know it isn't supposed to matter but I was 37 when she had SRS. I'm like 14 years older than Brittany but we did go to the same surgeon and have that in common. Both these ladies have a lot more "worldly" experience than I've ever had, if you know what I mean? I'm a schoolmarm in comparison!

Thanks again!

Consider it from my perspective; I was always attracted to both men and women, from my earliest understandings of what attraction was. I don't even perceive intimacy with men and women to be all that different and don't give a lot thought of what the different equipment means to intimacy because to me intimacy carries so many options. So there was not a preference consideration for me.

However, sexuality is a very intrinsic thing to most (but not all of course) humans, it is akin to and related to taking care of one's self, working out, maintaining self-care and mental health. Maybe not as critical as eating but then again human touch is very, very critical to our well being.

Maybe what is sometimes felt is sex-centricity is really just dysphoria or the desire to be one's self, layered over a very real need for human contact and attention. It is sometimes hard to detangle these things.

No.

While sex was majorly dysphoria-inducing I wouldn't transition for that reason alone, or even if it was a major deal, I would just think of sex as being a thing I had a problem with. That's exactly how I thought of it before transition and before being fully aware of the situation myself.

I only transitioned because I knew something was not right in general - too much estrogen, female form etc. was a problem for me just looking in the mirror. Dissociation from your own body can lead to you allowing your body to fall into neglect, or just outright harming it, or not even being aware when you are causing it harm via your blocking out of even looking or thinking about it. I transitioned to fix that, primarily.

I've been considering the same thing. I like women or someone who dresses feminine. Now, I just look at a woman and think I can't wait to be one, look how they dress and wish I could present myself like her. I've also started having fantasies about being with a man when I have transitioned. I have a very high labido, just the tool I currently have doesn't work very well, doesn't help I don't like it lol

My opinion is sexual preference is not exactly correlated to gender identity.
Prior to transitioning, always believe I only like female. The purpose of transitioning is to feel normal for myself as I felt entrapped within a body that doesn't seem correct. Having undergone the SRS, things seem right. Then again that sparks an interest to men. Can't explain why thou, when attractive men approaches, I am feeling excited in some sense.
I Guess postop in a way changes my perception slightly to the way I look at men or rather it auto corrects my mindset that is deem as normal? Not sure. I would say the mind plays an incredible role. But bottom line is transitioning I feel should be mainly due to GID and not inclined due to sexual preference as a scale determining factor.

Interesting, sexual preference has greatly affected my decision to transition.  My wife says she's not a lesbian and this above all else has delayed my transition.  :)

None of this really applies to me for the time being since I'm not transitioning, or have a wife, but if I were married, then yes.  It is mainly religious for me, but if I did have a wife, then it would be my duty to fulfill the physical intimacy part of the relationship as close to a male as I can.  If I were married, then transitioning would take an even greater priority because of the traditional male/female relationship I aspire to have.

To be brief,  yes. I was a heterosexual womanwith the wrong genitalia. A simple surgical correction was all that was required.

No not at all. My only reason to transition was happiness and an intense desire to live.



Love
Bobbie LeAnn

Yes and no.  It has added to it.

I have always had a VERY strong attraction to male genitalia and up until a few years ago some attraction to female genitalia which has now gone and I now find it repulsive.  I have NEVER found the act of love making as a man comfortable, it just felt wrong.  I am very submissive and take on a 'girly' role whenever I had sex, whether it be with a man or a woman which was just confusing.  It was only after I came out to myself that it finally clicked and I realised that I had the sexuality of a mostly straight woman.  If I mentally put myself in the role of a woman it all fit perfectly.

Now that my mind seems to have accepted this, my desire to transition has become stronger as things make sense now but also I have trouble as I can't even masturbate properly anymore (not that I do much of that these days), and definitely not with it sticking out the front like a man!  This is another reason that I want SRS/GRS as then things will be in the proper place and I can look forward to a proper sex life that feels right at last!  Well, that's the hope anyways...  ;D

If anything, my sexual preference has expanded to include men as romantic interests. 
I am presently interested in men and women now and have spent time with both.

Danielle

Quote from: Isabelle1970 on September 13, 2018, 04:36:15 PM
I've been considering the same thing. I like women or someone who dresses feminine. Now, I just look at a woman and think I can't wait to be one, look how they dress and wish I could present myself like her. I've also started having fantasies about being with a man when I have transitioned. I have a very high labido, just the tool I currently have doesn't work very well, doesn't help I don't like it lol

I'm totally with you on most of this. In my fantasies I am exclusively a woman. The partner could be a woman or someone with male genitalia. The thing is, everything else about men repulses me. The abstract is "eh maybe" but once I think about male face/body desire plunges. It doesn't help that, for me, tattoos are the second-biggest turn-off behind smoking and now they're EVERYWHERE.

I wouldn't say I have the sexuality of a straight woman because I would more rather be with a woman. "Lesbian trapped in a man's body" mostly, "with maybe some bi tendencies" if pressed to think about it.

For me, I hadn't realized I was attracted to the opposite sex until I was in therapy before I came out. It was another six sessions before I began to transition full time.

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 10, 2018, 05:04:31 PM
I actually wrote a super long TL:DR post in response to this question but decided nobody would read it or care so let me more succinctly try to add this.

I was never accepted into the world of boys and never looked or acted the part because that is simply not what I was in spite of the obvious contradictory anatomy. I entered kindergarten in 1960 and was immediately singled out creating major issues in my life until I graduated high school.

People had always been uncertain if I was a boy or a girl as long as I can remember and I grew up femme leaning androgynous looking but had the temperament, personality, manner and interests like any other girl which really seemed to bother and confuse a lot of these people. By 1967 or junior high/middle school (7th and 8th grade), the entire world including my parents and all the doctors I had been taken to from the time I was 10 pegged me as gay because of course at the time, that's  how gender atypicality was categorized because no one knew any better.

At 15, while out of school a month recovering from a violent homophobic attack that darn near ended me, I came to an understanding with my parents there was no way in holy hell I was ever going to grow up to be a man and somehow they just got it. Even as ridiculous and unheard of such a thing was, they said they had always known my true nature and who I was. We knew nothing about trans anything and had no directions or guidelines to follow but I ever increasingly moved out of androgyny as sort of just a natural progression and by the time I was 16, outside of my freakish life as a non-human it in school, it was rare that people didn't think I was a girl. I only got more "girl" after that. After years of talking to clueless doctors, I was officially diagnosed with "primary transsexualism" and started HRT the summer before my senior year at 17 in 1972,  which it seems was very rare for someone so young that long ago? Trans youth weren't even a recognized phenomenon nor had the concept of gender dysphoria come into usage yet and there were a lot of concerns about my age but nothing else made any sense. One of my psych evals even used some old Benjamin terminology when it was noted I was "completely psychosexually inverted". Whew! I'm glad at least the language is better these days even if things have gone a bit far in the PC direction.

Immediately upon graduation, even though I had been passing as a girl for several years, getting new IDs and stuff can be looked at as the end of my social transition but in reality, I had never been anything different to transition from so it was all a big non-issue. In other words, it was all kind of a moot. I had just grown up to be a girl with some sort of before transition and after transition point indiscernible because it all just organically manifested along the way somehow all by itself as the way things were just supposed to be. That sounds stupid, doesn't it but "being" a girl socially wasn't a big deal to me because that's what I'd always known myself to be and how I just came across to people. On the other hand, not being female and able use my body sexually as such nearly sucked the last bit of life out of my soul.

I lived the five years I had been on hormones and the four years since I had officially gone full time after getting out of high school in this sexual state of limbo. I had perfectly integrated, blended seamlessly into he world as a young woman and was completely accepted as female and was well beyond any sort of transition so when I did have SRS in 1977 at 22, you can bet that changing sex was all about being able to have sex at that point but it otherwise didn't have any effect on my daily life beyond the six weeks I took off work. Who I was going to have sex with was really irrelevant and it wasn't really until after surgery that I truly began to even discover what my preferences were. At now 63½, I still don't know what they are but it's been fun, interesting and sometimes hella exciting figuring them out. I've had my share of boyfriends and was reasonably promiscuous in my 20's and I was married to a wonderful man for 12 years but over the course of my lifetime, I've also had a couple of LTRs with other women as well. Go figure?

So no, sexual preference did not affect my "decision" to transition which was never a decision in the first place. It's just how I turned out. My sexual preferences did not did not lead me to surgery either but rather the ability to have sex as a female regardless of who I was with surely did.

Finally backing up what Complete said, people seem to think it was impossibly difficult to be trans, transition and be treated in the 1970's and the popular lore seems to be filled with nothing but horror stories from this era but if I got started on HRT as a 17 year old in 1972 while still in high school and had referrals and recommendations for surgery as soon as I turned 18, at least for me anyway, it wasn't as bad as people seem to think but I was pretty obviously "afflicted" and they didn't know what else to do with me but to proceed with what was considered at the time to be a grand experiment because of my age. Lack of funds was the only thing that made me wait until I was 22 for surgery, not gatekeeping. Yes, the way I was treated and some of the things that happened to me during my school years in a backward, redneck Arizona city are probably about as bad as you can imagine but after I graduated, with passing privilege I just easily got on with life with what we would now refer to as stealth as a regular girl and other than the sex and surgery thing, being trans was not and has not been a part of my life other than in minor ways.

Consider yourself lucky. I grew up in the same time frame as nd it was a nightmare to say the least.

Hi, Leann!

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For me, as a trans woman, the ability to have sex as a woman with a man IS a significant reason for me to transition. It's not the only reason or the main reason.

I think the bigger reason is to simply to live as a woman, and even if I couldn't have sex with a man, I definitely would still want to transition.

But I am really looking forward to a relationship with a man at the right time.

Quote from: Leann on October 25, 2018, 10:48:41 PM

Consider yourself lucky. I grew up in the same time frame as nd it was a nightmare to say the least.

Welcome!  I think you will find a few other folks here who had an unpleasant experience in trying to come out in the 1960s-70s.  Standards of care and local laws were in wild disarray back then, and coming out was anything but smooth for many of us.

(I was 'caught' and sent through a form of what is now called 'reparative therapy'.  Didn't stick...)

KathyLauren invited you to post an introduction.  This is a great way to get started here, and connect with others.  Welcome again, and I hope this can be a helpful place for you.

Quote from: Michelle_P on October 26, 2018, 12:06:27 PM
Welcome!  I think you will find a few other folks here who had an unpleasant experience in trying to come out in the 1960s-70s.  Standards of care and local laws were in wild disarray back then, and coming out was anything but smooth for many of us.

(I was 'caught' and sent through a form of what is now called 'reparative therapy'.  Didn't stick...)

Caught doing what? Would cross-dressing or something similar be a safe guess or something else? Of course, it's really none of my business.

When I was little and up until about the time I was in the 4th grade when it was kindly suggested I not do that any more, I was notorious for wearing my girl cousin's clothes. She visited weekly or I visited her and regularly as clockwork we either swapped clothes or I just found something of hers I liked and wore it. It was kind of a family joke and I did get teased about it but it was more or less expected and not a big deal.

My mom was pretty strict about what I could wear to school but I did everything I could to be as gender neutral as possible but I still felt really dorky, awkward and uncomfortable then when the whole unisex thing came into fashion, I was on it in a heartbeat. By the time I got to junior high, I had hair past my shoulders and was presenting as gender ambiguously as possible which just didn't fly in 1967 so you can imagine the kinds of things I dealt with in school. When other girls were allowed to start wearing makeup, I was allowed to at least play with it around the house and I loved the artistic and expressive qualities about it and since I'm kind of a makeup/beauty junkie, I guess I still do? :)  After I was 15, all my clothes came from the girl's department as long as they could marginally pass for boy's clothes but I did have some things that were too overtly feminine I was not allowed to wear to school but I could wear girl's underwear as long as they were cotton. It's funny how silly that seems now but it was a big deal to me back then.

I had some amazing liberties but what I thought were some weird and arbitrary restrictions as well. Some of the biggest screaming and door slamming fights I ever had with my mother were about how I could look but how many teenage girls probably haven't gone through the exact same thing? At least my long hair, which was halfway down my back when I was 15 had ceased to be a problem with the schools which hadn't previously been the case.

My senior year of high school after I had started HRT and was obviously going to be a full time girl as soon as I graduated, I had clothes for school and clothes for the rest of my life, my own drawer full of cosmetics and junk and my own jewelry box. People actually trusted me with their kids and I made money babysitting to buy some of my own stuff. It took getting sent home twice but I'd figured out a little bit of discrete mascara was as much makeup as I could get away with at school. I pushed things as far as I could but there still were limits. I was the "gayest" thing anybody had ever seen but they were just stupid and I didn't care, I'd grown some pretty tough skin and built up some mighty big walls over the years. As kind of a big F YOU parting gift, for graduation I went the whole nine yards with makeup and my mom curled my long blonde hair that was to my waist at that point and the people that hadn't figured out what was going on for me before sure did then. I walked away and never looked back or saw any of those people ever again.

There was and never really had been anything I could be caught doing that would have caused alarm or surprise because I just didn't hide anything. I didn't feel I had to. How my parents ever dealt with this or put up with me, I just don't know? Probably something to do with that unconditional love thing I'm guessing because in spite of all my problems and all the trouble they caused or the times we had to move so I could go to a different school, I was loved for who and how I was and as just me. My individuality was respected.

Probably best for another discussion but the whole nature vs. nurture issue has been brought up about me because I unquestionably did have a lot of nurture and was brought up with very few differences from any other girl as far as I can tell. I've always believed my "nature" was so strong, obvious and irrepressible, of course it and who I was nurtured, how could it not have have been? I was miserable and unhappy enough and maybe my folks felt sorry for me and didn't know what else to do but just let me be me. I sure sound like one of those cases because a lot of things do fit the classic pattern but no, my mother did not make me trans! I think most of us here are smarter than that? Personally, I'm grateful for learning all the stereotypical things and life skills growing up that most other girls do.

To stay on topic, I was not interested in boys and pretty much couldn't stand them in fact for all the bullying and ridicule. After a group of them nearly killed me when I was 15, the fear, mistrust, anger and outright hate I felt for them took well into my 20's to subside when I found out not all of them were monsters. I was only interested in girls as friends during my school years. The one and only ever friend I ever had in high school was a girl. I was just too freaked out about myself to even think about other people because it would have just been too weird for them and for me. After I graduated and was "official" I still didn't really know if I liked boys or girls because I had zero experience with either but through my (ahem) own explorations, I figured out the packaging didn't really matter that much. Because labels all seem to be a thing these days and I like to keep it simple as possible, if asked I comically describe my sexuality as mostly straight or if I'm trying to be clever, as heteroflexible. If I wanted to attach others, I'd be here all day and I'm the wannabe girlfriend of a man I'm hanging out again with later tonight and need a nap!

Sorry for writing so much and rambling again. I must stop doing that.

Quote from: Lisa_K on October 26, 2018, 06:28:45 PM
Caught doing what? Would cross-dressing or something similar be a safe guess or something else? Of course, it's really none of my business.

I went to a parochial elementary and high school, not great for someone like me.  A few yardsticks broken across my wrist convinced me to not talk about wanting to be a girl, and some of what I heard on the playground back in 1959 told me my dream of waking one day as myself wouldn't be happening.

I had a great deal of trouble with socialization in school, fearing male students and their reactions to me.  Many saw through my imperfect disguise, and I was called out and beaten for being a sissy, 'girly' and otherwise not male in my appearance and behavior.  I still had the discomfort and a sense that something was wrong, and it got worse when I was about 13.

At 14 I discovered that if I gave the bus driver an extra dime, I could ride all the way into San Francisco.  In 1967, that was quite the experience.  I wore my boots and flare pants, and in the SF bus terminal I'd change my top to something a bit more Bohemian and brush out my hair, another 14 year old hippie chick running around the city.  Then I'd head off to visit new friends over at Taylor and Turk St, or out near the Panhandle at Haight & Ashbury.

I had an extremely effeminate body, with no hair, undescended testicles, and some breast growth.  At 15 I was sexually assaulted in the high school locker room by several of the 'jocks'.  I received detention for trying to fight off my rapists.

At age 16 I was caught dressing in a 'sweep' to get youth off the streets of the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood, hit with a morals charge (my top buttoned the wrong way for a person assigned male at birth) and turned over to my parents.  I was taken around to a number of doctors who talked with me, and offered my parents treatment plans.  Mom, a professional nurse, turned down the electroconvulsive and aversion therapy plan (ECT was extremely crude and damaging back then), in favor of testosterone injections and extended counseling from a local religious figure.

The treatment was extremely unpleasant and frightening.  I was to blame for my rape, and was working with Satan to support my perversion.  I had to repent, pray, and follow instructions from my counselor without question.  The result had me terrified that even the slightest slip, when detected, would have me involuntarily committed, lobotomized, and run through a course of ECT and aversion therapy.

This 'cure' worked in the sense that I couldn't dress or express my authentic nature in any way for about 10 years. I was in my 30s, married with small children before I could even begin to address my true nature, and at that point decided the best path forward would be to suppress as much of this as possible for the sake of my wife and children.

There is a part of the trans community that looks down on those of us who are late to come out, using a variety of terms to refer to us that I consider invalid and obscene.  That's unfortunate, as many of us are among the best advocates and organizers for the defense of our community.  We generally do not and cannot live stealth, but are out there and open, pushing back against the hate so future generations will never have to go through what we went through.

I love your story Lisa. Please don't feel that I am insensitive to what you have gone through, I have gone through it. I have run the gamut since you began posting, I had no idea how to ever respond and I thought that I never would. I don't understand your life. I don't understand parents that want you. I don't understand family that don't think that if they beat you enough it will fix you. Knowing how you should be at an early age and not being able to let it go I understand, but it was not enough to respond, not for me. I understand some other things that I never feel like talking about so, I just let it all wash over me. Understanding, compassion, envy, regret, all of it and just avoided reading your posts.
 
The arguments with your mother I understand so thoroughly. Not my mom obviously, I barely knew my mom then but my grandmother. What made it worse was that they didn't move, she drove me to the new schools, every day. It got to be over an hour trip one way to and from school and I practically screamed at her the whole way. I blamed her for being raped and nearly killed as much as I blamed and hated myself, she was the one who put me it he hospital to fix me, she was the reason everyone eventually knew everything about me. Since my grandfather had threatened to put me in an orphanage when I was seven or eight he didn't have much to do with me, it was all her. We fought about everything, what I was wearing, were you touching that guy? Why would you want to be a girl, you would be so ugly? I know it wasn't her, I knew it then but I was in so much pain I didn't care.

Anyway, I left home when I was fifteen and she died of cancer less than two years later. We had been getting along much better but not soon enough.

I think for my whole life I dreamed of if, If I had parents, if I was born a girl or even live as a girl, if I was normal. I guess that if fighting with your mother is normal I at least touched normal somewhere. I do wish that I had known my mom, or not been so estranged from the mom that raised me when she died. I am so glad that I am not alone though in the life that I had and I am so glad that your mother loved you so much.

Take care.

I want to be a woman just to be female.  Sex has nothing to do with it.  I have not have any sex for at least 10 years now, and really don't miss it.  My libido is that low that one would need to dig a hole to find it.

What I miss, is skin contact and cuddling, but that has not much to do with sex.  I want to cuddle with a soft and hairless body, and that means it has to be either a woman or an intersex person like I.  I would not care if the woman would be trans or a cis, as long as she is soft and cuddly!

Quote from: Dietlind on October 27, 2018, 01:10:33 AM
I want to be a woman just to be female.
.
.

Hi Dietlind,                     27 October 2018

I know the feeling well.

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead; the same applies when you are stupid!"

I like your signature, it is a true statement. I'd like to add that neither condition is fixable and that the stupid are the last to know they are stupid.

Unfortunately, unlike the dead, they procreate, both can and do vote, especially for those that offer the freebies most of us end up paying for and are excluded from receiving.

Best Always, Love
Chris

Quote from: Michelle_P on October 26, 2018, 10:22:57 PM
I went to a parochial elementary and high school, not great for someone like me.  A few yardsticks broken across my wrist convinced me to not talk about wanting to be a girl, and some of what I heard on the playground back in 1959 told me my dream of waking one day as myself wouldn't be happening.

I had a great deal of trouble with socialization in school, fearing male students and their reactions to me.  Many saw through my imperfect disguise, and I was called out and beaten for being a sissy, 'girly' and otherwise not male in my appearance and behavior.  I still had the discomfort and a sense that something was wrong, and it got worse when I was about 13.
.
.Deleted for the sake of brevity.
.
There is a part of the trans community that looks down on those of us who are late to come out, using a variety of terms to refer to us that I consider invalid and obscene.  That's unfortunate, as many of us are among the best advocates and organizers for the defense of our community.  We generally do not and cannot live stealth, but are out there and open, pushing back against the hate so future generations will never have to go through what we went through.

Hi Michelle,                     27 October 2018

I had no idea; you and I seem to have experienced much of the same hell. We should talk off-line some day. Thanks for your openness. Some of the crap that happened is tough to think about and even tougher to express openly. I admire you for your courage. Thank You Big Time.

Best Always, Love
Christine

Quote from: christinej78 on October 27, 2018, 10:40:24 AM
Hi Dietlind,                     27 October 2018


Unfortunately, unlike the dead, they procreate, both can and do vote, especially for those that offer the freebies most of us end up paying for and are excluded from receiving.

Best Always, Love
Chris

Now, now, we don't want to drift off into politics again, do we?

Quote from: Michelle_P on October 26, 2018, 10:22:57 PM


There is a part of the trans community that looks down on those of us who are late to come out, using a variety of terms to refer to us that I consider invalid and obscene.  That's unfortunate, as many of us are among the best advocates and organizers for the defense of our community.  We generally do not and cannot live stealth, but are out there and open, pushing back against the hate so future generations will never have to go through what we went through.

I did not experiences the problem you had as a child, young person.  My super strong cousins would have beaten anybody into little pieces if they would have done any bad to me!  I had a pretty good childhood, nd di not even hink about any gender stuff.  I pretty much could live the way i wanted to live.

My gender dysphoria started with puberty. But I have written enough about this already!

I wanted to address this hatred attitude in the trans community!  I was attacked and even stalked on reditt and accused not to be real trans just hopping onto the trans wagon because it is in etc. 
A real trans would have found out in early childhood that one was trans.  I don't even know what I felt in early childhood, because it was after the war and I had to wer the clothes of my older sister when she grew out of them.  everything was unisex, we were glad to have clothes on our bodies and some food to eat.  I did not even know that two different genders existed until I had to go to school.   
Anyway, I was further accused that I had sex with women and fathered a child, a real trans would never do that, and on and on this person went.
Here I was trying to find out more about me and my condition, and was accused to be not enough of it or pure enough for it or to old to be it anyway.  And that I am only interested in trans stuff because I want to get off on women with a dick!  I could not believe the hostility I faced!
But anyway, ladies, now you know I am just a stalker, and don't talk about your boobs and your dicks because that forces m to go into a dark corner to masturbate, now you know my dirty secret!  >:-)

I never actually responded to the op. Sorry.

As a teen sexual attraction was very confusing for me. Maybe it was all of the other problems but my "itch" never found anyone to land on. I knew that I wasn't attracted to girls but I hadn't yet had any guy that I was attracted to either and felt it was a waste of my grandma's time to keep going on about me staying away from guys. I was afraid of them, angry with them, hated some but there was never any attraction. Not sure why her, schools, the police, everyone really assumed that I was gay, I never tried to go against my grandparents and present female. I did eventually get a crush on a guy in my early twenties, it was hard for me to deal with so I spent the next twenty years as alone as I spent the first twenty.

To answer the question, I don't know. No definitely, I had already planned a life alone and it had nothing to do with it. At the same time, I still wanted love, to be touched. I don't know why I even get horny, I have almost no testicles, but I do. So, I don't know. However small of a part it had to play it did have a part to play. Not sexual preference but the need for some kind of a physical relationship, I just happen to have only ever been physically or romantically attracted to men. While being a man with a man is not nearly as icky as being a man with a woman, it is still pretty icky.

Okay, put it this way. My problems with sex, or a potential partner was not because they were the wrong or right gender, they were because I was the wrong gender. It was never going to happen with me as a male.

Quote from: christinej78 on October 27, 2018, 11:15:54 AM
Hi Michelle,                     27 October 2018

I had no idea; you and I seem to have experienced much of the same hell. We should talk off-line some day. Thanks for your openness. Some of the crap that happened is tough to think about and even tougher to express openly. I admire you for your courage. Thank You Big Time.

Best Always, Love
Christine

@Christine , I am quite open about this within our community. I want folks to realize that there have been times and environments in which simply being ourselves was unsafe, bordering on deadly, even within the standards of care of professional psychology.

I work at my activism specifically to avoid a return to those days, and to make sure today's youth never have to go thorough what we went through.

I realize that by being so out, I may annoy people in the cis and trans communities. Some folks don't realize how quickly a culture can turn on a marginalized group when they need to create an outsider, the alien to focus their fear.

On the original question, who I am attracted to had no impact on my decision to transition. I was always attracted to other women. (No, dear, not that crank  Blanchard's disproved hypotheses!)   After transition I recognized my attraction was broader, towards femme presentation, and not terribly focused on the shape of genitalia. I'm also demisexual, needing romance or emotional connections before I can express sexuality so that slowed me down a little.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Dietlind on October 27, 2018, 04:46:27 PM
Now, now, we don't want to drift off into politics again, do we?

Hi Dietlind,         29 October 2018

Nothing political intended, just a statement. My ex-wife is an expert at gaming the system. One of her sons OD'd on drugs, is now a quadriplegic, whose first 2 months In the hospital cost the taxpayer over $1 million; what did the taxpayer get for their money; nada, nothing.

Best Always, Love
Chris

No.

Chrissy

Quote from: christinej78 on October 29, 2018, 06:54:24 AM
Hi Dietlind,         29 October 2018

Nothing political intended, just a statement. My ex-wife is an expert at gaming the system. One of her sons OD'd on drugs, is now a quadriplegic, whose first 2 months In the hospital cost the taxpayer over $1 million; what did the taxpayer get for their money; nada, nothing.

Best Always, Love
Chris

Can/should we put a monetary value to a human life?  That would play right into the current administration who could say that there is no reason to keep us worthless beings alive, and thus refuse medical services to us!