A little context, I'm a teen FTM. I'm only out to a few people, mostly brothers' friends. Still deciding whether it's worth it.
Society seems to be more comfortable with trans-men than with trans-women.
No disrespect to anyone. From what I've seen, trans-women are very beautiful, refined, confident, etc. Is it because straight cis-guys are nervous of how attractive trans-women can be?
Is femininity "degrading" in some way? A rough-and-tumble girl is better tolerated then, say, a boy who enjoys nail polish and clothes-shopping.
Thoughts?
Absolutely! It's considered more acceptable for a woman to act like a man and vice-versa (whatever the words "man" and "woman" mean). It all comes down to misogyny; it's considered degrading for a man to stoop to the level of a woman, as you know. I'm not sure how into queer theory you are, but there's an amazing book you might want to read that'll shine more light on this topic than I can. It's called Whipping Girl, written by Julia Serano; reading it really helped open my eyes to the way our culture perpetuates misogyny and transmisogyny. It also helped me figure out my own personal gender issues a bit better.
My own personal opinion is that it's both due to the issue of a "man" stooping to the level of a woman and the idea that men are entitled to a woman's body; trans women are "tricking" men into being attracted to them. It's a very harmful narrative I'm sure we've all seen in the past. I have more thoughts on this, but I'm far to tired to articulate them properly!
-S
Life as a woman sucked. I got turned down for jobs for being taken as female. If you think that was just in my mind , you are wrong, the employers told me so outright.
It made some people think I was doing this for the wrong reasons due to that. For some there is still dome doubt. Since it was OK to look and act 'manish' in most circumstances, it was harder for others to see what I suffered from no matter how obvious it was to me.
Perhaps this post makes no sense, my ability to write what I mean is lacking.
There is a general disparagement of femininity in our society. The trappings of femininity: Jewelry, makeup, beauty) etc., are looked upon as frivolous, vain, etc. The trappings of masculinity (sports, cars, physical prowess) while just as frivolous have no such stigma. Even modern feminism praises the girl that goes into sports or wants a powerful career and is uncomfortable with the girl that plays with dolls and wants to be a mom.
We are also a very visual species. Seeing is believing. Because transguys pass visually so easily after a few rounds of T, people believe them as males. Society is also very accepting of passable trans women (Don't hear much condemnation of Janet Mock or Laverne Cox, right?), but non-passable trans women, because they "look like men" are much harder to accept.
Just my opinion, of course.
I think because we still live in a patriarchy, (feminist, I am not a terf), Transwomen are seen as 'lowering themselves to the level of women and trans men are seen, while still evil deviants, as at least going in the right direction.
Quote from: suzifrommd on March 21, 2015, 05:03:00 AM
There is a general disparagement of femininity in our society. The trappings of femininity: Jewelry, makeup, beauty) etc., are looked upon as frivolous, vain, etc. The trappings of masculinity (sports, cars, physical prowess) while just as frivolous have no such stigma. Even modern feminism praises the girl that goes into sports or wants a powerful career and is uncomfortable with the girl that plays with dolls and wants to be a mom.
We are also a very visual species. Seeing is believing. Because transguys pass visually so easily after a few rounds of T, people believe them as males. Society is also very accepting of passable trans women (Don't hear much condemnation of Janet Mock or Laverne Cox, right?), but non-passable trans women, because they "look like men" are much harder to accept.
Just my opinion, of course.
What about this situation: Female sports reporters have been given full access to male locker rooms even where the men are naked but male sports reporters are still not allowed in female locker rooms under any conditions.
First off, the details are much more critical and opionated than appropriate. You would have to adopt others view and goals of life.
I have traveled the country, cross country from the west coasts of California to the North East to New York City..
Traveling and presenting as a transman is much more acceptable.. 'How could such a beautiful woman want to be man' 'change me'
The reaction is horrible people putting thought towards you being mtf, intended physical disrespect, death threats.. List goes on
Experience a bit more, and you will see the standards women and men hold.. Then include the transgender factor after.. Wham!
You'll be fine! ;D
Curiously the only problems Ive encountered have been from gay men. I've only met a few and they were about as transfobic as it gets. As far as cis gender people, I never have a problem.
I think that society in general is more open and accepting of "FTM" than of "MTF".
One of those double standard issues I suppose. A FTM is seen as a woman finding her "inner strength", seeking power, and the image probably associates itself with modern day feminism, whereas a MTF is seen a weak, confused male, "why would a man want to be a woman, submissive, give up his "societal power". Society brings up males to never show emotion other than anger, never show submissiveness, never show you need help. So when people see a MTF, they see a man trying to disguise themselves as a woman, and they automatically search for all those standards men typically demonstrate. When they don't see it, it freaks them out.
Quote from: Amy1988 on April 10, 2015, 12:40:16 PM
Curiously the only problems Ive encountered have been from gay men. I've only met a few and they were about as transfobic as it gets. As far as cis gender people, I never have a problem.
Oh absolutely. I hAd gay friends who stopped talking to me when I came out to them. I wish I had their support because they most certainly have mine.
cis people who aren't accepting see it as men wanting to be women. Which they don't understand because they are sexist. They male-ness and masculinity are superior to female-ness and femininity. That's why often issues trans women face is actually trans misogyny rather then transphobia. Also trans women are more likely to be visible since our society puts so much weight in women's appearances.
I do acknowledge though that trans men do have different forms of oppression. Because if your trans identity gets discovered by the wrong person you may not be taken seriously Aka you will be treated like a women.
Quote from: mac1 on April 10, 2015, 02:22:19 PM
I think that society in general is more open and accepting of "FTM" than of "MTF".
I think so too...and it might be related to how society seems to prefer lesbianism vs male homosexuality.
Two women kissing? That's HOT. A woman dressing up as a man? (<--not my words, TG/TS are often viewed this way) Ah, how cute!
Two men kissing? That is terrible/gross/immoral! A man dressing up as a woman? Obviously some kind of perv, just wants his jollies.
I wish people in general would not judge others based on their private moral yardstick.
ETA: In the 3 years I've been "out", there has been only 1 incident of any hostility ("YOU are a guy."). OTOH, nearly everyday I go out, I get smiles and "Hi!"'s mostly from women. imho, it is a generally accepting place where I live (mid-size city, north of Seattle WA USA).
I haven't had any problems, really. I am always expected to get the surprised face when I have to out myself (like at government branches when changing name or other documents) but generally never any harsh reaction either way.
My personal experience has been FTM are more accepted until you say "I am a man". That is when you get dismissed for being a deluded chick.
I can be myself quite easily. Men kind of dig it. Never had a problem with my jobs, so I think it is easier for FTM until you go to the men's room or until you put "M" on a form.
Quote from: Mister_Porter on April 16, 2015, 11:23:21 AM
My personal experience has been FTM are more accepted until you say "I am a man". That is when you get dismissed for being a deluded chick.
I can be myself quite easily. Men kind of dig it. Never had a problem with my jobs, so I think it is easier for FTM until you go to the men's room or until you put "M" on a form.
Shouldn't be that big of a problem in the men's room. I have seen women use the men's room with men in there without a problem or recourse.
its all about superiority. males are viewed as the superior of the race, however since ancient times, women were even able to take down the gods with their charm in mythology. honestly, its a sensitive as well as a very complicated situation. from what i can see, there are a lot more males being born confused and its scaring society because because in politics, the ratio is 3 men to ever 1 women and because of the confusing, their losing their control and power. to maintain their power, they make mtf outcasts in society and want one of two things to happen, the MTF to completely give up the idea of wanting to transition or have them perish. for those who can pass easily, its a lot more easy to blend in but for those who need extensive work, its a living hell. as for FTM, females can pass as males without trying. now a days, your finding more tomboyish girls who prefer t wear jeans, baggy shirts and have the attitude of a male. because of this, society is more accepting of FTM because if they were to become males, the power shift would tip yet again back into the favor of the males, who consider themselves the most superior. its just in my opinion but thats basically the history of this world.
Quote from: CarrotInsanity on March 21, 2015, 12:56:53 AM
A little context, I'm a teen FTM. I'm only out to a few people, mostly brothers' friends. Still deciding whether it's worth it.
Society seems to be more comfortable with trans-men than with trans-women.
No disrespect to anyone. From what I've seen, trans-women are very beautiful, refined, confident, etc. Is it because straight cis-guys are nervous of how attractive trans-women can be?
Is femininity "degrading" in some way? A rough-and-tumble girl is better tolerated then, say, a boy who enjoys nail polish and clothes-shopping.
Thoughts?
You're exactly right. This is also one of the reasons that I find it an
imperative for transgender men to actively stand up for women's rights (because we get the privilege that allows us to do so). Even though we are often not accepted as men, the fact that we are even seen as "masculine women" is attributed with being more capable because of pervasive sexism. Additionally, cisgender men rarely see us as competition because *clearly* they are "superior" to us by virtue of being "real men." When it comes to transgender women, however, cisgender men often become very uncomfortable because *oh my God, they might be attracted to someone who has the same sexual anatomy as them shock*! It's all absolutely archaic and ridiculous. That said, most people honestly don't care either way; it's just a small but vocal minority of people who are just bigoted idiots.
The fundamental bases for transphobia are sexism and homophobia. Femininity is de-valued by society, and masculinity is valued. Women's bodies are often not seen as belonging to them but rather as being some commodity of pleasure for those attracted to them. And the preoccupation with sexual orientation confuses and frightens people.
Well.
I'm very much against feminism and I don't agree with a lot of the assumptions that've been given here, but I'll say this:
I've been kicked out of a mall, beaten by a group and left bleeding on the street, sexually assaulted (not going into details, but it was bad and more than one situation) and shunned from help services. A few years back I was jumped and beaten so badly that I had four broken ribs, nearly punctured a lung and ended up in the hospital.
My experience there was having the doctors asking me what kind of body they were dealing with, shaking their heads at me and overall looking disgusted. When the police came in to talk to me about the assault I was strongly suggested to not press charges because being the 'type' that I am, it'd only cause me more problems.
Shortly after coming out of the hospital I developed pneumonia. I had nowhere to go because the people who put me in the hospital were the family of my girlfriend who I was staying with at the time (we were saving up to move to another state together). They shamed her once they found me out and she ceased to acknowledge my existence thereafter (even though she already knew I was trans).
So it was the dead of winter, I was sick and I found my way to a shelter. For women. They refused to let me in, of course.
I broke into an old shed and slept in there until I could get out of that godawful place.
Moral of the story? It's not about your sex/gender, it's about your environment and who you surround yourself with.
I completely agree with Atypical. I've also faced serious issues in regards to society's bigotry about trans men, so no, I completely disagree with everything said before.
I think society has been more open towards trans women with the recent light of events that trans women have far more visibility in the media. Both face enormous hardships in life, but people mostly care about trans women issues these days. Don't get me wrong, but even the fact that I need to yell that I understand the issues trans women face every sentence in order to talk about trans men is already alarming.
Right now it's not trendy to support trans men, as it is trans women. Look at all the media, all we talk about is trans women and the face of trans issues is always a trans woman. What about agender people? What about NB people? What about trans men?
In general I don't like that it's a contest.
We all face serious problems and the fact that trans women yell that they're more oppressed to pull the blanket on their end isn't fair either.
Quote from: graspthesanity on April 24, 2015, 07:36:18 AM
Don't get me wrong, but even the fact that I need to yell that I understand the issues trans women face every sentence in order to talk about trans men is already alarming.
Very well put.
Trans men are far less visible than trans women so it's much harder to get people to focus on the issues the guys face. I'm not sure why this is. Maybe because they tend to blend much more easily, so people don't often see someone and say "Ah. That's a transguy."
I definitely agree that one's environment plays a HUGE factor. Also that trans men are often out of the discussion even though them and their issues should be more discussed in the media. trans people no matter how they identity are at higher risk for violence.
But when you say that gender/sex isn't a factor. you are not acknowledging the fact that when lgbt hate crimes are done they are done disproportionately to trans women. More specifically trans women of color.
Quote from: Atypical on April 21, 2015, 02:56:23 PM
Well.
I'm very much against feminism and I don't agree with a lot of the assumptions that've been given here, but I'll say this:
I've been kicked out of a mall, beaten by a group and left bleeding on the street, sexually assaulted (not going into details, but it was bad and more than one situation) and shunned from help services. A few years back I was jumped and beaten so badly that I had four broken ribs, nearly punctured a lung and ended up in the hospital.
My experience there was having the doctors asking me what kind of body they were dealing with, shaking their heads at me and overall looking disgusted. When the police came in to talk to me about the assault I was strongly suggested to not press charges because being the 'type' that I am, it'd only cause me more problems.
Shortly after coming out of the hospital I developed pneumonia. I had nowhere to go because the people who put me in the hospital were the family of my girlfriend who I was staying with at the time (we were saving up to move to another state together). They shamed her once they found me out and she ceased to acknowledge my existence thereafter (even though she already knew I was trans).
So it was the dead of winter, I was sick and I found my way to a shelter. For women. They refused to let me in, of course.
I broke into an old shed and slept in there until I could get out of that godawful place.
Moral of the story? It's not about your sex/gender, it's about your environment and who you surround yourself with.
hi,
I am really sorry if my comments sou d dismissive of ur experiences. That was not my intention. I recognize that between the two of us I am the more privileged. it is for people like you that we are fighting for, and though trans men don't have as high of murder rates. it seems like we aren't giving trans men enough thoughts in community conversations. Keep fighting. hope your life gets easier.
Quote from: amber roskamp on April 24, 2015, 09:18:12 AM
I definitely agree that one's environment plays a HUGE factor. Also that trans men are often out of the discussion even though them and their issues should be more discussed in the media. trans people no matter how they identity are at higher risk for violence.
But when you say that gender/sex isn't a factor. you are not acknowledging the fact that when lgbt hate crimes are done they are done disproportionately to trans women. More specifically trans women of color.
^Exactly. Do transgender men face discrimination? Absolutely. No one with any understanding of the current state of society would argue the opposite. I have been beaten up in school, denied healthcare outright, sexually harassed by another doctor, and lied to by government agencies. However, statistically, transgender girls and women (especially those of ethnic minorities) are far more likely to be victims of violence, denied proper healthcare, and suffer homelessness. These are facts. Facts don't have opinions, they're simply true.
None of this is to disregard the discrimination transgender men face, and yes, we are less visible but partly because many more of us choose to be invisible whereas many transgender women choose not to go "stealth" or don't have that option at all. Nobody accuses transgender men of being deviants who are trying to gain access to "women's spaces" for sexual pleasure. It just doesn't happen. What we *are* accused of is denying our "womanhood" because we desire male privilege (and/ or find femininity lowly). This is intolerable.
Discrimination abounds, but again, most people don't care unless you really demand that they analyze things. Most people are too self-involved to care. There are extremists, on the far left and far right - the radical pseudofeminists and conservatives, respectively. These people will eventually be forced into silence, in part by some of the remarkably brave transgender women who are standing up for all of us. Why does it matter that they're women? The person who stands up gets attention, that's how life works. If transgender men want our narratives heard, we have to stand up as well - and not as a counter to these women who are already making things better for us all, but as allies. Brothers and sisters standing together for a common goal. It should bother us all equally regardless of our gender or the gender of someone who is being harmed by society simply because that person is suffering.
And for the record, feminism is simply the idea that women and men are equal, and deserve to be treated as such. That is literally all it means. The media twists the term into something that isn't true simply to try to maintain control over women, their identities, bodies, sexuality, and self-perception. Feminism is strictly for equality.
Quote from: Ian68 on April 24, 2015, 10:06:28 PM
^Exactly. Do transgender men face discrimination? Absolutely. No one with any understanding of the current state of society would argue the opposite. I have been beaten up in school, denied healthcare outright, sexually harassed by another doctor, and lied to by government agencies. However, statistically, transgender girls and women (especially those of ethnic minorities) are far more likely to be victims of violence, denied proper healthcare, and suffer homelessness. These are facts. Facts don't have opinions, they're simply true.
None of this is to disregard the discrimination transgender men face, and yes, we are less visible but partly because many more of us choose to be invisible whereas many transgender women choose not to go "stealth" or don't have that option at all. Nobody accuses transgender men of being deviants who are trying to gain access to "women's spaces" for sexual pleasure. It just doesn't happen. What we *are* accused of is denying our "womanhood" because we desire male privilege (and/ or find femininity lowly). This is intolerable.
Discrimination abounds, but again, most people don't care unless you really demand that they analyze things. Most people are too self-involved to care. There are extremists, on the far left and far right - the radical pseudofeminists and conservatives, respectively. These people will eventually be forced into silence, in part by some of the remarkably brave transgender women who are standing up for all of us. Why does it matter that they're women? The person who stands up gets attention, that's how life works. If transgender men want our narratives heard, we have to stand up as well - and not as a counter to these women who are already making things better for us all, but as allies. Brothers and sisters standing together for a common goal. It should bother us all equally regardless of our gender or the gender of someone who is being harmed by society simply because that person is suffering.
And for the record, feminism is simply the idea that women and men are equal, and deserve to be treated as such. That is literally all it means. The media twists the term into something that isn't true simply to try to maintain control over women, their identities, bodies, sexuality, and self-perception. Feminism is strictly for equality.
+1 like :)
I agree, I'd just like to add that there's still a fair handful of trans men who decide not to go stealth and don't really pass is a thing for both trans women and trans men. I would surely not exclude that for any of the genders and also many people decide not to "pass" so that falls for both really:) I'm just a bit tired that people think that all trans men are stealth and look the same.
Also, I don't like speaking of my experiences often, so just like any victim you can say I keep my mouth shut and I'm a trans man and I've faced some rather hard abuse in life. So I get erased simply because I don't want to speak much of it. Yeah, I speak it to raise awareness, but I don't really want to be waving my arms and saying what happened to me in order to be valid in a conversation of transphobia, while if a trans woman is in it they will be presumed to have faced it while I didn't. Obviously until I mention the countries I originated from. And also, speaking of countries Eastern Europe shouldn't be removed, Latin America shouldn't be removed, those countries have it equally bad for trans women, trans men and NB people.
From the top of my head when it comes to Brazil and trans men, trans men are written in police reports as "women" so it never makes it as a transphobic crime, while trans women crimes are barely reported, but can still fall under report. So what happens is that the trans men hate crimes don't even get reported because they are considered "women".
So by the end of the day when we speak of such topics as FTM vs MTF discrimination very often we fall under some country's bias when it reality we should be taking global or saying which country.
Judging by my own experiences with people, and various articles and scientific journals I've read, transwoman are far less accepted by unaccepting males as being exposed to femininity is seen as a risk to their masculinity, like being associated with women will prevent them from being masculine (I'm not sure if this is a real-life trend, but all the men who hate transwomen that I've encountered tend to be misogynists too). By attacking transwomen (and even gay males) who express their femininity, they see themselves and are seen by their peers as boosting their masculine appearance, by wholeheartedly rejecting the notion that a biological male can be feminine (this notion making them feel like they are at risk of becoming feminine). Thus transmen are less-victified as they are seen as trying to be more more masculine, which is a positive thing according to the haters. IMO.
Feminism is actually focused on female issues, which is why I don't personally support it.
I've lived both sides of the fence. When I was living female I was pretty much spoiled by society, and when I started to live as male, that changed completely. People were much more harsh and unforgiving, and expected me to 'man up' and meet all these expectations.
I have been sexually harassed, assaulted, and bullied by both men and women while living as a man, though by far the majority of those individuals were women (including my rapist). It really changed my view on gender politics and these days I kinda despise gender-favoring movements, to include both feminism and the MRA. Gender wars are just stupid.
Anyway. I once asked my counselor why MtFs seem to get more grief and she said that's hardly the case. It's just a hell of a lot harder for an MtF to pass on average than an FtM and, on top of that, FtMs are given a bit more leeway because they're biologically XX and XX just happens to get treated more delicately by society.
Edit: Basically, if there are 100 blue people and 75 are seen, and then 100 red people and 25 are seen, chances are that more blue people are going to be beat up than red people. That doesn't necessarily mean they're just hated more.
Correlation =/= causation. There's a lot of assumption going on in this thread.
Quote from: Atypical on June 20, 2015, 06:47:44 PM
Feminism is actually focused on female issues, which is why I don't personally support it.
I've lived both sides of the fence. When I was living female I was pretty much spoiled by society, and when I started to live as male, that changed completely. People were much more harsh and unforgiving, and expected me to 'man up' and meet all these expectations.
I have been sexually harassed, assaulted, and bullied by both men and women while living as a man, though by far the majority of those individuals were women. It really changed my view on gender politics and these days I kinda despise gender-favoring movements, to include both feminism and the MRA. Gender wars are just stupid.
Anyway. I once asked my counselor why MtFs seem to get more grief and she said that's hardly the case. It's just a hell of a lot harder for an MtF to pass on average than an FtM and, on top of that, FtMs are given a bit more leeway because they're biologically XX and XX just happens to get treated more delicately by society.
Again, this shows that you are using a specific definition of a specific kind of feminism; there are many feminisms, some of which deviate radically from the core of what feminism is *supposed* to be, which is an attempt to create equal and fair opportunities for men and women. The word 'feminism' has been distorted in recent years to mean something a bit different from that; true feminism is not solely about women's issues but about issues of gender, period.
At any rate, we do not live in a world in which even female-centred feminism can go away because there are far too many parts of the world in which women, cis* or trans*, have rights so disproportionately below that of their male compatriots that I can only assume those who argue against 'feminism' are not aware of how well, in terms of options as a certain gender, one has it in whatever part of the world they live in. To tell a Saudi woman who cannot drive but who desires to that gender-favouring movements aren't that cool is a bit much. I say this not to cause an argument or attack anyone, by the way, but simply because too often I see arguments about 'feminism' made by people who appear to have a geographic societal privilege they may not be aware of, despite their sweeping condemnation of a term. The world has many different places with people of different privileges, and what argument applies in one place may not apply elsewhere. I also wrote this without any intention of denying or erasing your gender-based suffering as a male, and I'm really sorry you had to endure all that.
Beyond that, I don't think it's useful to compare stigmatisation if it becomes a competion: FTMs have more, no, MTFs have more, etc. With that said, I do think MTFs are likely to be more discriminated against and be more in the media's eye because of what androgynouspainter so rightly said early on in the thread: the sensationalism of the seemingly unthinkable idea of giving up 'male privilege' to live as a woman. Transmisogyny cuts to the core of patriarchal assumptions much more than the obverse discrimination against FTMs, which is also likely why transwomen are disproportionately featured in the media.
And this is not recent, but has a long history. So often in Western history, for instance, it has been implicit that women dressing as men did so to gain privilege or stature (one view of George Sand, for instance), whereas men who dressed as women were portrayed as attempting deception, objects of comedy, or, worst of all, sexual abominations of some kind. Whether or not transwomen (or men dressed as women) are viewed as women by a certain group, the way women's bodies are sexualised so disproportionately to men's affects both transwomen and men who dress as women in historical and contemporary portrayals thereof. This is transmisogyny and patriarchy again, but it is worth noting that those assumptions have very long historical backgrounds--hence why they're hard to get rid of.
But FTMs do have specific issues we need to talk about with the general public so they accept our trans brothers better. Consider the Aydian Dowling narrative. Dowling is in a contest to become the male on the cover of an issue of Men's Health. Last time I checked, he was on top in rankings. But the response to him was a wild mix of positive and negative. Commenters against him frequently mis-gendered him--which we all face--but also said something I had never seen before: that transmen using T is equivalent to using steroids and thus that his very being as a transman made him ineligible for the competition. This is completely unfair, of course, since Dowling worked hard for his body. But this is also an issue we transgirls get to avoid for the most part (it only comes up if we go into sports, at which point our bodies become sites of discourse as to whether or not we are 'cheating' by being who we are, but FTMs will get this, as well, possibly even more so because of T). Because transmen are generally less sensational in a society that broadly privileges maleness over femininity, the commenters had likely never even seen an FTM person before, as some comments I read confirmed.
This is why I am glad Google Business recently made a video about gender transition featuring an FTM. I love positive coverage for transwomen, obviously, but I am well-aware that too often FTMs are erased in the conversation (somewhat like how bisexuality is often not mentioned in media discussions of queer sexuality), and coverage like this will hopefully help.
Nonetheless, even if FTMs were in the media 24/7, I'm still convinced, unfortunately, that it is we MTFs people will tend to focus on, due to what I and others said above--unless something changes in how the general public views the ideas of masculinity and femininity (which is why we need feminism, for there is still an obvious, if often unspoken, hierarchy of the two).
Problem with your entire statement there is that the entire thing is basically assumption derived from the common fallacy of correlation = causation. Which is, honestly, the heart of feminism and all other gender-specific movements.
As an example of such assumption, you state women are more sexualized than men (another gender war debate), but I would argue that men are just as sexualized, only in a different way. Male models are tall and muscular, while most real, every day men look nothing like that. Both sexes are sexualized equally if this is taken into consideration, but feminism often tends to forget this in light of bias (ever female-focused) assumption.
Consider me an atheist to such a belief system.
Edit: I'm speaking of western society, of which I'm a part of. Feminism has shown me nothing positive, so I find no use in it.
Well, Mtfs get far more attention from the media than ftms. When do you ever hear about ftms in the news other than that Chaz Bono thing that happened a couple years ago? It also seems like ftms aren't taken as seriously. "Aww you want to be a guy, that's so CUTE!" Reactions like that are a serious form of discrimination. I'd rather be called a freak than my gender identity to be trivialized and treated as "cute." Also if an ftm was "pretty" as a female alot of straight cis guys will consider his transition as a betrayal of sorts because how dare a hot chick want to be a man? That mostly comes from sexist guys who view women as objects but still, it happens.
Honestly it's not that Mtfs are discriminated more than ftms. They are just discriminated in different ways. It's not a contest either. I think we can all agree on that.
Quote from: CarrotInsanity on March 21, 2015, 12:56:53 AM
A little context, I'm a teen FTM. I'm only out to a few people, mostly brothers' friends. Still deciding whether it's worth it.
Society seems to be more comfortable with trans-men than with trans-women.
No disrespect to anyone. From what I've seen, trans-women are very beautiful, refined, confident, etc. Is it because straight cis-guys are nervous of how attractive trans-women can be?
Is femininity "degrading" in some way? A rough-and-tumble girl is better tolerated then, say, a boy who enjoys nail polish and clothes-shopping.
Thoughts?
I'm seeing a lot of overgeneralized stereotypes in the differences between the sexes. Well, there has been a narrowing between the gender gap since the 70s/80s as more women became career oriented and some men took on more roles at home with children and getting in touch with their "sensitive" side, thanks to Phil Donahue and metrosexuals. I've known a few MTFs who do not pass well, some who are decades past their own gender reassignment. As for my experience, I lived as a highly feminine looking and acting woman before coming to grips with myself and realizing the image I created wasn't me and that I am male, but I will never be a ruff and tumble type of dude. I'm only 11 months into my transition, but I'm still pre-op and I'm only 2 and half months along on hormones. I'm surrounded by folks around me at my work who still doubt my transition. I constantly have to "proove" I'm the real deal to some of these narrow minded folks. So, what I'm trying to say is, I believe the androgynous segment of the trans* community probably have the toughest experiences out there for gaining acceptance and it won't surprise me, that the androgynous trans folk will probably experience the most discrimination, bullying and harassment. That's been my experience so far. I know it's been the experience of someone close to me well. I envy those who are blessed with passing well and who are able to live a stealth life. The problems that MTFs vs FTMs encounter is different and I'm not sure which side has it worse. Let us not compare, for I think this will only create friction between us. MTFs are expected to be beautiful are are often objectified while FTMs are constantly tested for toughness and strength. Let's just say I think it's awful for all of us. Society doesn't understand us and they need to be educated and enlightened. I don't care what anyone thinks of me, I just want a chance to live my life and to be recognized for who and what I happen to be. I want equal rights and fairness too.
Quote from: Atypical on June 20, 2015, 07:24:53 PM
Problem with your entire statement there is that the entire thing is basically assumption derived from the common fallacy of correlation = causation. Which is, honestly, the heart of feminism and all other gender-specific movements.
As an example of such assumption, you state women are more sexualized than men (another gender war debate), but I would argue that men are just as sexualized, only in a different way. Male models are tall and muscular, while most real, every day men look nothing like that. Both sexes are sexualized equally if this is taken into consideration, but feminism often tends to forget this in light of bias (ever female-focused) assumption.
Consider me an atheist to such a belief system.
Edit: I'm speaking of western society, of which I'm a part of. Feminism has shown me nothing positive, so I find no use in it.
I believe you are referring to radical extremists who claim to be feminists. Yes, feminists emphasize women's interests and issues, but that is because there has always been a war against women that exists world wide and still remains that way, including in the US. There are statistics that I found to be alarming that support this claim. All anyone needs to do is to look at the facts. The numbers speak for themselves. Also, I believe that the definition of feminism has been distorted as a result of some of the actions of these radical extremists. When you get down to the real definition of feminism, it's basically the same and stands for the same principles as those fighting for human rights. Feminists support and seek equality between the sexes regardless of gender, age, race, ethnicity, background, physical limitation, etc. Feminism is not a dirty word. I'm a feminist and will always be one.
Miles
Quote from: Atypical on June 20, 2015, 07:24:53 PM
Edit: I'm speaking of western society, of which I'm a part of. Feminism has shown me nothing positive, so I find no use in it.
Its about attitudes... looking for common things instead of seperating ones...
talking instead of acting it out...
a holistic approach instead of a materialistic one...
how does it affect a whole system...
those are feminine values the world needs...
an integration of emotional/intuitive and not an overweight of logic/rational...
and many people come around slowly imo...
values like nature etc are more and more important...
hugs
I believe it is a combination of misogyny and androphobia/misandry. People don't really accept us as truly being the gender we identify as. A transwoman is seen as a man and a transman is seen as a woman. Misogyny has been covered, but the other issue is societies negative views of men.
A man is seen as a predator. This is why when I was 21, I was thrown out of a local park "for running" on the exercise trail that said "run or walk" right on the sign. The real reason was that a daycare brought their kids the playground adjoining the exercise trail and let them run wild. In their minds, I was "a danger" that had to be removed. The sad part is they couldn't even come up with a good reason for ejecting me. I was ejected supposedly for doing exactly what the posted signs said was permissible and what I had done previously without issue.
Since, a transwoman is still seen as a "man", a predatory reason might be assumed for her "pretending" to be a woman. She is either trying "to trick" men into having sex with her or she is trying to get into a womens-only space and "rape" the women. But, a transman, being seen as a "woman" is not viewed as a predator. Even if presenting male, he (assuming he is not passing) is seen as not a threat. OTOH, if he passes (which FtM seem to do much more easily than MtF), he is just seen as a guy. Assuming, he doesn't do something unacceptable for a man like show excessive emotion or exist in the general vicinity of children, he will be accepted.
As for femininity being seen as negative, misogynistic men are not the only reason for that. Some radical feminists actually seem to view traditionally feminine things negatively to the point they themselves become misogynists. These are the ones that demean stay at home moms or scream bloody murder whenever a girl wants to play with a doll instead of a toy truck.
A transman does not offend any of these groups. He is seen by misogynists (male and female) as trying to better himself by seeking masculinity and by androphobes as "a woman" and not a threat. A transwoman by contrast offends all of these groups. She offends the misogynists (male) by demeaning "himself" by "acting like" a woman. She offends the female misogynists by desiring feminine things. She offends TERFs and androphobes by having been born with a penis.
Statistically there is more trans women than there is trans men. Trans women are seen as "men who became women" or "men impersonating women." Also, trans women are often hyper-sexualized in pornography and popular culture, and portrayed as sexual predators in anti-trans rhetoric (e.g., "Do you want men in dresses peeing in the girl's bathroom??!?") Trans men don't hit those same fears... But they definitely still get discriminated against. Straight men don't think "oh that trans man will turn me gay!" No one is scared of "a woman in the men's room" because that's safe... Is that bull, and discriminatory? Yes... MtF trans people are more visible usually, because on average they pass a little less well than FtM folks. It's more normale for people seen as women to wear masculine clothes.
Bigot logic: "Men are better, so it's understandable that women would want to become them. For a man to downgrade to becoming a woman, they must be weird or a pervert! Maybe they're doing it so they can take our girl's virginity in the bathroom. Maybe they're trying to trap us into being gay! Tomboys are okay, effeminate men are confused and destroying society. A man acting like a woman in a gay or trans way is the ultimate scandal."
There is an asymmetry between male and female transgender characters in pop culture because there is an asymmetry between the depiction of males and females in general and this affects how the audience reacts to transgender characters.
I sometimes think that society is more interested in transwomen in general because it's still seen by the general population as a 'male' desire. So this could be read as ignoring people born with vaginas - because society still cares more about people born with penises. The flip side of this is that a lot of feminists (e.g. Germaine Greer) don't support transwomen when they especially need the support - and supporting trans people supports feminism because it implies (or should) that one can change gender without losing or gaining any rights or place in society.
However, I'm FTM and I feel that more representation for transmen would help transmen in terms of education etc - i knew more about the process of transitioning MTF from background media than i did about FTM prior to researching. I know about Lili Elbe but I don't know anything about the first transman to have GRS.
I think there are two things going on. The first occurs when someone applies the current level of societal sexism to someone with basically no knowledge of what trans people are about. For them mtf's are basically wolves in sheep's clothing, and ftm's are sheep in wolves' clothing. One is a threat and trying to be sneaky about it, the other is trying to make themselves look like a threat but there's no way they ever could be.
Then there is the ever so slightly more evolved thing going on, where they do have some understanding of trans issues but the sexism thing is still big. "Aww you poor little mtf, do you need a hug and a tissue and maybe some aroma therapy candles?" Contrasted with "Ftm huh...well that sucks*. Rub some dirt in it and walk it off, bro."
* - referring to whatever grievance is being aired
That sort of sexism runs deep and I don't see it changing any time soon. Trans acceptance and protection will happen way before women and men are seen or treated as equals I think.
I think there are a couple of things going on. With the prevailing sexism in society, MtF is seen as a downgrade while FtM is seen as an upgrade.
But there is also a substantial amount of homophobic fear. When the average cis male thinks of trans women, he is afraid of this scenario:
Man walks into bar. Man sees gorgeous woman and hits on her. Man and woman head to the bedroom. Clothes come off - SURPRISE! Man fears that he must be gay to have hit on the trans woman.
I think this explains why trans women face more discrimination, and why the majority of that discrimination comes from cis men. Cis women who discriminate are afraid that the scenario will happen to their husbands.
Quote from: Willowicious on June 20, 2015, 06:42:10 PM
Judging by my own experiences with people, and various articles and scientific journals I've read, transwoman are far less accepted by unaccepting males as being exposed to femininity is seen as a risk to their masculinity, like being associated with women will prevent them from being masculine (I'm not sure if this is a real-life trend, but all the men who hate transwomen that I've encountered tend to be misogynists too). By attacking transwomen (and even gay males) who express their femininity, they see themselves and are seen by their peers as boosting their masculine appearance, by wholeheartedly rejecting the notion that a biological male can be feminine (this notion making them feel like they are at risk of becoming feminine). Thus transmen are less-victified as they are seen as trying to be more more masculine, which is a positive thing according to the haters. IMO.
I agree with you here, though I'd add that transmen are getting a different kind of prejudice- we can be treated like children or basically still be seen as 'silly, helpless women' who just want to move up in the world, or took the whole tom-boy thing to an extreme. Obviously not true, and no attack on any transgender person is okay, but as far as statistics have been going, transmen may have it a little safer in SOME ways and circumstances. The visibility factor helps. It is sort of okay for a guy to have some feminine features as far as appearance goes. Women are especially harshly judged- expected to be small jawed, round faced with more delicate features. My therapist told me seriously that she wouldn't have a hard time passing as man if she wanted to and I think she could have without much trying- but she experienced minor slights because she's a masculine looking female. Guys who are small or short still get harassed, so a lot of times, the stereotype of the aggro short guy compensating for lack of height is true because that guy has had to be more intimidating and aggressive to get taken seriously. People who don't fit the expectations will get abuse from both sides- the short guy gets told he's too short by guys and beat up, and then rejected by women on the basis of they 'don't want to date a guy shorter than them'. And masculine looking or acting women get called nasty things from both men and women for being too aggressive, basically being told she is acting too unladylike...
I also agree with Espeon- there's different flavors of discrimination and they all suck. The Flavor depends on the transperson, the hater and the environment. I live in a pretty hippie dippy accepting place, but even the most liberal of hippies can say some awful ignorant stuff to my face or misgender me. The majority of them are not TRYING to hurt me, they just don't know how to be polite. I know that militant "feminists" often believe transmen are traitors and transwomen are "invading sacred space" so really, no one looks good.
Also, what about genderqueer/agender/nonbinary folks? My own mom didn't even know what a FTM was when I came out. I can't really quite explain to her how I REALLY feel about the whole of my gender identity. I tend to lean male, but I have a healthy side of neuter/nonbinary and I am pretty content not being male as long as i am not smashed into the female category. I'm not saying it is better to be seen and hated, but overall, the majority of people can understand MTF or FTM in some degree. I don't know how many people understand non-gendered or asexual, or other more unusual forms of gender expression, since many people don't seem to know they exist! In a place like the US where transgendered people who are killed are USUALLY identified as transgender one way or another, it does seem that the actual killings lean heavily on the MTF side. That doesn't make FTM suffering any less heinous, and there are transwomen who have had it pretty good, as far as being hurt physically. Ugh. It's depressing to say not being murdered, beaten or raped is "pretty good", sorry everyone. My brain is giving up :C
See I just got into an argument with a transgender support group claiming I'm wrong ugh
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I know this post hasn't been posted on in a while, but I wanted to say my experiences in this area. im one of 2 mtf people in my town, and of the two of us, only she gets hate, and not me. I think it all has to do with how we act. she is of the dolls and acts like a little girl a lot. but then with me it seems like im not bullied because while im obviously presenting as female, I am also scary to many men because im known to fight back and not roll over. my track record of fighting is both verbal and physical and I wont instigate, but I ALWAYS finish what others start, I guess that while im a nerdy gamer girl, im also a spitfire of a girl and talented at using my size to my advantage, so it isn't just what you are, its also how you act I guess if that makes any sense, but don't get me wrong, I LOVE shopping and jewelry and makeup(despite not being able to wear it often), but I don't roll over when I get bullied and discriminated against.
At my work I actually overheard someone when they found out about me transitioning say that at least it wasn't a "dude" going to a "chick"
Quote from: Sleepydf on July 13, 2018, 11:18:27 PM
At my work I actually overheard someone when they found out about me transitioning say that at least it wasn't a "dude" going to a "chick"
wow that is so uncalled for.
It was. I was not happy with them.
It seems like a silly comparison in my opinion. Its not an apples to apples comparison, its apples to oranges. Its like people with ptsd trying to compare traumas.
MtF and FtM are both pretty seriously discriminated against, but very often in such drastically different ways. In my experience transmen have a serious lack of visibility and even when the visibility is there they are rarely taken seriously by the majority of people.
Transwomen in my experience have an easier time with visibility....and an easier time being taken seriously at least SOME of the time. In my experience being taken seriously as a transwoman is dependent more on being considered attractive than being actually passing.
I dont know if im really being clear here, but each group has distinctly different challanges and forms of discrimination. And for both FtM and MtF some people will face drastically more or less discrimination due to a myriad of factors.
I think that transwomen experience lot more violence and transmem experience a higher rate of suicide or suicide attempts.
At the end of the day both groups have a lot of BS to deal with. For me at least, it makes more sense to focus on the fact that both groups are discriminated heavily but in different ways than to entertain the idea that one group or other faces more or less discrimination.
Just my two cents. Feel free to disregard. This is the internet after all.....
Quote from: IdontEven on September 23, 2015, 10:35:33 AM
I think there are two things going on. The first occurs when someone applies the current level of societal sexism to someone with basically no knowledge of what trans people are about. For them mtf's are basically wolves in sheep's clothing, and ftm's are sheep in wolves' clothing. One is a threat and trying to be sneaky about it, the other is trying to make themselves look like a threat but there's no way they ever could be.
Then there is the ever so slightly more evolved thing going on, where they do have some understanding of trans issues but the sexism thing is still big. "Aww you poor little mtf, do you need a hug and a tissue and maybe some aroma therapy candles?" Contrasted with "Ftm huh...well that sucks*. Rub some dirt in it and walk it off, bro."
* - referring to whatever grievance is being aired
That sort of sexism runs deep and I don't see it changing any time soon. Trans acceptance and protection will happen way before women and men are seen or treated as equals I think.
Do you have the candles? because I would love the candles. I have actually seen a lot of the sexism around me, but its the opposite way around in my area. its "aww you poor confused ftm, go play with your dolls and stop pretending." or what I get which is "mtf? what the
>-bleeped-< are you doing you creep, stop trying to get near my family pervert." like, what is the point of insulting someone for being themselves? and what kind of twisted mind would one have to have to use transgender as a way to be a pervert?
Well people tend to be more excepting of girls acting like men as they tend to see the as hot and badass because they're tough rather than a boy behaving girly as they see that as low and a lack of toughness. They also tend to see them as 'gay.'
Honestly though, society needs to get the frick over it and let people be themselves. 😑😒
@Lilly G
I love your profile pic.💟