Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was born in 1996 and I will be turning 22 in a few weeks.

Recently there have been a lot of innovative techniques for trans people being developed.
Like uterus transplants and lab grown vaginas that will be available in a few years from now.

Maybe even lab grown ovaries in a few years time. That would mean that the younger ones under us will be able to have our own hormone supply without taking drugs.

That makes me really happy because I suspect it will all be widely available in 10-15 years from now. I will be a mid 30s woman at that time.
Still young enough to give birth, to have ovaries transplanted, to have a lab grown vagina and to enjoy my life as a woman, as a mother, as a wife.
Young enough to enjoy my youth as a woman,...

Do the older trans people on here ever wish they were born a few decades later?

Yes and no. I've had a pretty good life so far and who knows how it would have turned out if I transitioned young. There's a lot of good things to lose. I also didn't realise I was trans when I was young so probably wouldn't have done it anyway.

I am glad that the younger trans folks will have more options.  I am happy for them.

I spent 60+ years wishing that my life was other than the way it was.  I am all done with that.  My life is what it is, and for now and the foreseeable future, it's pretty good.  I wish waiting lists were shorter, but other than that I'm done wishing.  I am ready for happily ever after.

Quote from: AnonyMs on February 24, 2018, 09:10:07 AM
Yes and no. I've had a pretty good life so far and who knows how it would have turned out if I transitioned young. There's a lot of good things to lose. I also didn't realise I was trans when I was young so probably wouldn't have done it anyway.

How does it feel to have two lives for one person?
I mean, how does it feel to have a before transition adult life and after transition adult life?

I transitioned in my late teens and am early twenties now so I only spent my childhood as a boy but never experienced life as a man.

How does it feel for someone who transitioned late in adulthood? Do you see yourself as a " before and after transition " person or is it one and the same person?
Sorry if that is a too curious question to ask.

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 24, 2018, 09:15:56 AM
I am glad that the younger trans folks will have more options.  I am happy for them.

I spent 60+ years wishing that my life was other than the way it was.  I am all done with that.  My life is what it is, and for now and the foreseeable future, it's pretty good.  I wish waiting lists were shorter, but other than that I'm done wishing.  I am ready for happily ever after.

Do you look back with pain on your " before transition " life?
Or are you trying to be happy with how your life went?
I mean, do you only cherish the life you have now or do you also try to be happy with the things you accomplished pre-transition?

Not really.

The tech may be there in the future but society's unraveling by the looks of things. I wish I'd done this decades ago.

I've not lived two lives yet as I've not socially transitioned, but I have been on hrt a long time. I have a family and it's hard to imagine giving that up.

I've been quite successful as a man, but sometimes it all seems worthless. That's probably just depression speaking.

The main thing I'm looking forward to is just peace. To move on from this constant thinking about trans stuff and get on with life. It's very hard to imagine what it will be like to live as a woman.

If I'd been tormented my entire life by it perhaps I'd have different answer. If I was a lot younger I'm sure I would.

No.

There will always be more advances (and perhaps some undesirable societal changes) over time. 
I hope those are all good for the upcoming generations.

In our lives we have benefitted from many advances.  I am grateful.

Chrissy

Quote from: Transfused on February 24, 2018, 09:19:05 AM
Do you look back with pain on your " before transition " life?
Or are you trying to be happy with how your life went?
I mean, do you only cherish the life you have now or do you also try to be happy with the things you accomplished pre-transition?

While there was a lot of pain in my former life, I lived it well.  I did some cool things, including something that would not have been possible if I had transitioned earlier: flying a jet in the air force.  (They only allowed male pilots at the time.)  All things considered, I am happy with it.  It got me to where I am today, which is a good thing.

I could regret not having transitioned sooner, but I don't.  Regret would tarnish the joy of my new life.  I don't need to go there.

Quote from: Transfused on February 24, 2018, 09:16:57 AM
How does it feel for someone who transitioned late in adulthood? Do you see yourself as a " before and after transition " person or is it one and the same person?

Obviously, there is a before and an after, with some rather large distinctions between them.  And I do find it convenient sometimes to talk like there are two different people: him and me.  But it is all me.  I don't think of myself as two people.

While my body is being transformed, as are my social interactions and some legal documents, there is no transformation of who I am.  I am still me, the same me that I have always been.  I just get to show more of me to the world now.

I am in the "Yes & No" camp. Being a child of the 1950's and having 2 failed transition experiments in my late teens early 20's I can now look back at what a totally different world compared to that in which we live today. One constant of life is CHANGE. What the world looks like today will be different then the one 50-60 years from now. People like to tinker so there will always be medical "advances" announced. Some make it, some have issues.

One day many years ago my pointy haired boss decided that I would one of the perfect people to send off for a week at a shot for several months to some BS "World Class" something or other training. Right in the middle of the initial designing and paperwork phase of a several million dollar order in which I was "THE" person running and doing. When I pointed out the absurdity of his choice he said:
"There is never a good time"

Wait 10-15 years and there will be yet another, if not many more, "Breakthru" advances as an army of Master's & PHD candidates need to come up with something to pontificate about

Heavens no. I was born in the late 80's and remember what life was like without internet, let alone smartphones. I'd take that over lab-grown bells and whistles any day.

     Yes and no mostly no as a child of the sixties I got to see a social revolution change the world and watched it backslide and now it seems to be starting anew I was too young to be active in the sixties and will be one of the old ones this time but as Bob Seger said "times they are a changing"
     To live to see 2 social revolutions is worth missing out on some advantages in technology

     bobbisue :)

No, I get to live two different lives. How many people get to do that? Reset in the middle and start fresh. :)

I feel like I was born at a good time, mid-80's, so right around the same time I started having questions about my gender and sexuality, the internet became a thing. I've heard so many older people say how lost and isolated they felt because of the times they grew up in, and I felt that too, but I at least knew there were others like me going through the same thing. I do with I was born a little bit later however, since it's been the relatively recent rise of acceptance that made me feel safe enough to start transitioning, which I didn't feel back even 20 years ago.

Quote from: BT04 on February 24, 2018, 10:39:28 AM
Heavens no. I was born in the late 80's and remember what life was like without internet, let alone smartphones. I'd take that over lab-grown bells and whistles any day.

You mean you preferred it back when there was only basic technology????

I think it would be cool to be born like 50 years from now. I'm sure technology will be way cooler then.

It's an interesting question but, like a zen koan, one that can never be answered fully but can only serve as a springboard for meditation.

It's easy to romanticize the past or to vilify it but never possible to change it.  Like the butterfly effect, things we do change the future, and like Robert Frost said, 2 roads diverged in a wood and I, being a solitary traveler, took the one less traveled and it has made all the difference.

I do often wonder if the transition resources/industry was available back then how would my life would have been different, but I find it an ultimately futile exercise and leads only to feelings of regret for the road not traveled and distracts me from enjoying the wonderful life I have now living as a woman.
The truth is it was a different world, and I was a different person.  To reiterate, the world wasn't ready and I wasn't ready. I once heard a country song with the lyrics, "Don't try to push the river, let it flow there on it's own."   

We'e assuming that people and social attitudes only ever move forwards. Look at some parts of the world right now. Some are very rich and very backwards at the same time. They'd never even allow the sort of tech we want under their ideology or religions.

Anyone thinking the arrow of progress only ever goes one way is mistaken. Time flows only forward but people can go backwards. No guarantee we're going to end up in a better place.

Quote from: Kylo on February 24, 2018, 09:25:48 AM
Not really . . .  I wish I'd done this decades ago.

Agreed (I like this guy!) I wouldn't have missed The Sixties for anything!!!

And see my signature below  ;)  From Jefferson Airplane's 1967 album Surrealistic Pillow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejKUJu9xct4)

( p.s. edit: lol Done what 'decades ago'?? )

For me definitely. Even ignoring my gender issues, I'm basically a '90s kid who was born in the '80s. I'm still a millennial, but I have a lot more in common with people in their 20s than people my age. Furthermore, it would have spared me a lot of pain with my gender issues. Back in the '90s you couldn't do anything until you were 18 and at that point I was already over 6 feet tall. When I was in college the Blanchard model (the >-bleeped-< model, essentially that being trans is a fetish) was predominant so that helped to push me into extreme denial.

Ugh, growing up during the social media era? Pass! ;D It was insufferable enough in my 20s!

Seriously though, I like when I was born all things considered even if I wish I had transitioned sooner. I feel being born in the early 80s and growing up primarily in the 90s as a nerd gave me a better handle on technology, be it for practical purposes or simple entertainment, than most people in older generations and the younger generation. It was at that sweet spot where computers and the internet were becoming ubiquitous so the kids had easy exposure, but at the same time the technology was early enough to not be dumbed down like the current iteration of everything (*cough*apple...). It's a good middle ground perspective I like having, at least given my interests and proclivities. Not to mention with a lot of the 90s pop culture resurgence, I totally get nerd street cred! ;D

Quote from: Julia1996 on February 24, 2018, 12:35:15 PM
I think it would be cool to be born like 50 years from now. I'm sure technology will be way cooler then.

Assuming humanity still exists and we aren't all dead. Because honestly, that is quite possible at this point.

Quote from: Julia1996 on February 24, 2018, 12:33:34 PM
You mean you preferred it back when there was only basic technology????

Yup! More and more complex isn't always better - oftentimes it's actually worse across many metrics.

Quote from: Roll on February 24, 2018, 01:17:55 PM
Assuming humanity still exists and we aren't all dead. Because honestly, that is quite possible at this point.

Exactly. Thanks in no small part to all these bells and whistles most everyone is vying for. It all takes fossil fuels, and fossil fuels wreck nations, wreck biospheres, and, based on our current trajectory, will most assuredly wreck the entire human species.

Quote from: Roll on February 24, 2018, 01:17:55 PM
Assuming humanity still exists and we aren't all dead. Because honestly, that is quite possible at this point.

You're such an optimist Ellie. Lol.

Quote from: BT04 on February 24, 2018, 01:46:39 PM
Yup! More and more complex isn't always better -

I'd really like to see Classic Vinyl make a comeback!! Now all artists do is whine about "loss of royalties"!

"Going Up The Country"
Before the 60's (note how clean cut) . . . youtube.com/watch?v=nBhpiUFSYWI
After the Sixties (same song) . . . youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0Dm-OaTNk
( Anyone remember when "copy & paste" involved 'Silly Puddy"? )

"I'm gonna leave the city got to get away . . . we might even leave the U.S.A 'cause it's a brand new game and I don't wanna play" Sorry! On a roll 8)

Tech is nice (have solar power) but it's not The Answer. Which city ya think gonna be NUKED first?

Maybe. As much as I can be old school OG about fashion and to some degree about relationships, I sometimes see I have some things in common with millennials and it surprises me. I guess I am ahead of my time. Insofar as being trans, later is better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I remember thinking and being told the world was going to end when I was a child, I had no doubt that I would never be an adult. Decades later I am still here.

My grandmother and I reconciled a little, bare minimum really, when she was dying. We would talk on the phone some every day. She said it was the same when she was a child.

I read a biography on John Edgar Hoover years ago, he felt the same way.

I don't understand human psychology and why we are the way we are. Why are we so fascinated with the end of the world. I had actually thought for a while the possibility it was some racial precognition, like in Arthur C Clarke's, 'A Childhood's End'. The Mayan calendar, zombie apocalypse, pandemic, alien invasion, meteorite or just plain global warming, seriously what kind of precognition is that muddled? Might as well let Nostradamus pick our future. Not precognition then. So why? I have a friend that was so certain that there was going to be a revolution in the US, that was seven years ago. I assured him that as long as people have a roof over their head, food to eat and a little left over to play, revolution would not happen. Why would he feel that way? Anyhoo, with few exceptions the world keeps pressing on so my guess is that it will continue to do so for a while.

Now sometime I believe we have reached the limits of our current evolution but that is another story.

The OP's question. Lol, bet you thought that I would never get there. 😁
No. Not just no but NO! Hell no!
I have lived my life and some of it was pretty good, some pretty awful but it led to here. Forget when I had finally lost all hope and prayed that it would end, just end, no rebirth, no heaven, no hell just nothing, no pain forever. Forget that I didn't want a future. I got one anyway and I am so grateful that I did. Now, say 20 years from now they do have major breakthroughs in science, pretty good assumption right, who is to say the major breakthrough is in a direction you are thinking currently. What if the scientific advancement is to find the cause for this and cure it before birth? We would be the last and the world would put up with us until we faded into almost nonexistence like small pox. No one would care about improving transition then.

MAYBE tomorrow will be better. I will take what I have it's more than I ever thought would be possible. Millions of years of homosapiens and now we finally have a chance. Now. This time.

Now is my time.

Quote from: Kiera on February 24, 2018, 02:53:54 PM
I'd really like to see Classic Vinyl make a comeback!! Now all artists do is whine about "loss of royalties"!

"Going Up The Country"
Before the 60's (note how clean cut) . . . youtube.com/watch?v=nBhpiUFSYWI
After the Sixties (same song) . . . youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0Dm-OaTNk
( Anyone remember when "copy & paste" involved 'Silly Puddy"? )

"I'm gonna leave the city got to get away . . . we might even leave the U.S.A 'cause it's a brand new game and I don't wanna play" Sorry! On a roll 8)

Tech is nice (have solar power) but it's not The Answer. Which city ya think gonna be NUKED first?

Why would anyone want those old records?? My grandma has vinyl records and when she plays one it doesn't sound very good. Music is perfect from an iPod. No static or anything like that. Plus you can store hundreds of songs on an iPod without having physical records to clutter things up.

Quote from: Julia1996 on February 24, 2018, 03:41:32 PM
Why would anyone want those old records?? My grandma has vinyl records and when she plays one it doesn't sound very good. Music is perfect from an iPod. No static or anything like that. Plus you can store hundreds of songs on an iPod without having physical records to clutter things up.

I agree with you.  With my phone and music subscription I can listen to anything I want at anytime I please.  With a good set of headphones or a good speaker system the sound is excellent too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Except now there's planned obsolescence. They used to make stuff to last. I know people with record players that still work from the 60s and 70s. Can't say the same for my computers, CD players or ipods.

I like being able to take the music anywhere easy though

No, I'm grateful for having been born in the early 60s, before cable tv, the internet, mobile phones & social media. As much as I use & enjoy those things, having grown up in the world before them is something I treasure. Besides, if our tech were to suddenly come crashing down for some reason, even temporarily, there's no question in my mind that I'd be fine because I already remember life without it.

I have occasionally found myself wishing I'd awakened to being trans in my 20s, 30s, or 40s, instead of my 50s. The thing is, wondering about that would not only pointless it would also be a drain on my emotions & spirit. Instead, I'm happy to have awakened at all; the chance to live my life more fully in the here & now is so sweet!

There are some amazing people, places & things I've experienced & enjoyed in my pre-transition life. There have been hardships, griefs & disappointments that have shaped who I am. I graduated from high school the year that HIV/AIDS was first mentioned in the media; so many beautiful people I knew died but I would never have known them at all if I'd been born in a later decade. I can't imagine having missed any of those experiences.

Life often feels miraculous & precious to me these days; if I'd awakened as trans earlier, perhaps by now I would just be a forgotten memory. Who knows? No one, that's who.

If my former partner & I had worked things out in the early 2000s, I wouldn't have subsequently met & married my much loved husband. If my mother hadn't been an emotionally neglectful narcissist throughout my childhood, maybe I wouldn't struggle so much with self-worth; but maybe I also wouldn't have as much compassion for others' struggles. Speculating about what my life might have been if this or that had or hadn't happened, or if this or that medical option had been available earlier just takes time away from living right now.

Quote from: Julia1996 on February 24, 2018, 03:41:32 PM
Why would anyone want those old records?? My grandma has vinyl records and when she plays one it doesn't sound very good. Music is perfect from an iPod. No static or anything like that. Plus you can store hundreds of songs on an iPod without having physical records to clutter things up.

Look up audiophile. There are some albums that were recorded direct to vinyl and with the right equipment, sound pretty awesome and better than digitized music IMO. The music on CDs and digital files can be compressed a lot and lose the warmth, range and nuance of analog recording unless you go to the proprietary format Neil young invented. That said, there's a time for beer and a time for 18 year old Macallan. Depends on what you like to listen to and how often.some music won't see much of a benefit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Sometimes, although not necessarily for technological advances (I'm almost 40 and FTM and I think we are further from cis-functioning organs). I attend groups with young trans guys and I envy the freedom of gender and sexuality that they have. When I was their age, I knew that I wasn't a straight woman and that I felt more like a gay man... I knew it but I couldn't live it. I didn't have knowledge of transitioning or healthy representations of transgender people. I lived in a world where homophobia was rampant and constant... being an openly gay man meant you would be harassed and probably physically assaulted... so I vowed to pretend to be a straight woman and use my relative privilege to advocate for gay rights. The young gay and trans guys now are out and proud and they know so much and accept themselves in a way that I could not. I envy that and I am so excited for them. I love that we are living in a time and place where kids can discover and live their truths.
On the other hand, if I had been born 20 years later than I was and transitioned as a teen, I wouldn't be me. Who I am is a product of my history and experiences. As painful as some of it is, I wouldn't change it. I am early In my transition so I can't say how I will feel about life before and after.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Kylo on February 24, 2018, 05:11:02 PM
Except now there's planned obsolescence. They used to make stuff to last. I know people with record players that still work from the 60s and 70s. Can't say the same for my computers, CD players or ipods.

I like being able to take the music anywhere easy though

You're right about that. My grandparents have stuff they got when they were first married that still work. That's fine for stuff that doesn't matter like waffle irons and vacuums but with electronics who would want them to last a long time? My grandparents have a TV from like the 70s in their basement. They don't use it but I think it still works. But even so who would want to watch anything on that outdated old thing? There is always a newer version that comes out. After a year I'm ready to get a new phone if my old one still works or not.

Quote from: Julia1996 on February 24, 2018, 08:53:37 PM
You're right about that. My grandparents have stuff they got when they were first married that still work. That's fine for stuff that doesn't matter like waffle irons and vacuums but with electronics who would want them to last a long time? My grandparents have a TV from like the 70s in their basement. They don't use it but I think it still works. But even so who would want to watch anything on that outdated old thing? There is always a newer version that comes out. After a year I'm ready to get a new phone if my old one still works or not.

Several things to consider there:
1) Rapid turnover of electronics are largely unnecessary, and the "new versions" are contrived to sell, not actually substantial upgrades the way they used to be. This particularly true in the case of phones, as because of market penetration of older versions most apps/games/etc. will be developed for the largest installed user base anyway, and not the recent models. If only 1% of people have a Galaxy 8 or iPhone X, there's no money in it for app developers. It is all pure hype designed to sell the phones by highlighting a few features that would work just as well on older processors, they just parcel them out over time to make things seem innovative.

2) Rapid obsolescence also exists in cases where there is no clear upgrade, or the upgrade is unattractive, such as PC power supplies or routers (at least upgrades as far as 99.9% of users are concerned), but still must be replaced because of purposefully shoddy construction. Somehow I doubt you are itching for the newest TP-Link model. ;D

3) Such replaced devices are a massive, MASSIVE, environmental hazard. They waste precious resources, and often suffer from severe disposal issues.

4) Planned obsolescence can cause secondary effects beyond simply replacing hardware, such as important data loss. Not everything is sync'd to a remote server, and in fact by encouraging things to be we are creating yet more environmental damage (if anyone wants to drop your carbon footprint, delete those pointless extra photos of your brunch from 4 years ago off of any cloud storage and get your friends and family to do the same).

No I just wish I was born female.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Quote from: BT04 on February 24, 2018, 01:46:39 PM
Yup! More and more complex isn't always better - oftentimes it's actually worse across many metrics.

Exactly. Thanks in no small part to all these bells and whistles most everyone is vying for. It all takes fossil fuels, and fossil fuels wreck nations, wreck biospheres, and, based on our current trajectory, will most assuredly wreck the entire human species.

I was talking to an engineering student today over at the Colorado School of Mines and he told me that he recently read an article about how scientists will soon be able to artificially create a black hole.  Call me a Luddite, but just because  we CAN do things doesn't' mean we should.  I put driver-less cars in that category of science/progress run amok.

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 24, 2018, 11:03:39 PM
I was talking to an engineering student today over at the Colorado School of Mines and he told me that he recently read an article about how scientists will soon be able to artificially create a black hole.  Call me a Luddite, but just because  we CAN do things doesn't' mean we should.  I put driver-less cars in that category of science/progress run amok.

I would put most scientific "breakthroughs" of the past few decades in that category. Modern science either runs on corporate money or the cool factor - stuff we do just because it's effing cool without a care in the world about whether it ought to be done or not. Eff yeah, let's make corn that glows in the dark. Why? Well eff you for even asking why! Eff yeah science! -guitar riff-

Modern scientism seems awfully allergic to discussions about philosophy and ethics though, strangely enough. Because let's face it, newer and shinier and sexier is what sells. Forget that nobody genuinely believes, in their heart of hearts, that the iphone X is better than the iphone 7 or whatever came last. They'll put that $800 bill on their credit card, chuck it in the garbage in a couple years, and conveniently ignore the depression/anxiety/opiate addiction/suicide epidemic happening in spite of all this "progress" and "technology" making our lives "better".

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 24, 2018, 11:03:39 PM
I was talking to an engineering student today over at the Colorado School of Mines and he told me that he recently read an article about how scientists will soon be able to artificially create a black hole.  Call me a Luddite, but just because  we CAN do things doesn't' mean we should.  I put driver-less cars in that category of science/progress run amok.

I'd say that self driving cars are actually one of the few things that would be a massive, practical benefit to the world. Fully automated transportation would be far more efficient in every way: speed (traffic issues could largely be eliminated), fuel (optimized everything else means optimized fuel usage), time (think what you could accomplish in the time you spend driving each day), and most importantly, safety (fatal collisions would drop to a fraction of what they are now, if not become virtually non existent). Perhaps most importantly though, it would open up access to the larger world to people who previously did not have it. People who are handicapped or suffer from other issues that prevent them from driving, and I speak from experience on this (I didn't have my license until 2 months ago because of severe anxiety and phobias surrounding driving). Of course, it is pretty much an all or nothing scenario, and none of the benefits can be fully recognized without complete conversion to the driver-less model. (Also, it doesn't mean there can't be separate areas that are driver-less with additional areas that allow for human control for those who actually enjoy driving. But think about the daily city commute, does anyone really "enjoy" that? That is the area where they are needed.)

If I could have been raised by a family that loved and supported me, Yes! At least I could have avoided male puberty altogether.

I think I actually would have preferred to be born thousand/hundreds of years ago, to some culture (any will do), which valued transgender people.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but predicting future is difficult. It might be that society is more accepting within next hundreds of years...or then not. I would rather not take the risk, even when medical options would be more better and probably more options available.

Quote from: BT04 on February 24, 2018, 11:29:23 PM
I would put most scientific "breakthroughs" of the past few decades in that category. Modern science either runs on corporate money or the cool factor - stuff we do just because it's effing cool without a care in the world about whether it ought to be done or not. Eff yeah, let's make corn that glows in the dark. Why? Well eff you for even asking why! Eff yeah science! -guitar riff-

Modern scientism seems awfully allergic to discussions about philosophy and ethics though, strangely enough. Because let's face it, newer and shinier and sexier is what sells. Forget that nobody genuinely believes, in their heart of hearts, that the iphone X is better than the iphone 7 or whatever came last. They'll put that $800 bill on their credit card, chuck it in the garbage in a couple years, and conveniently ignore the depression/anxiety/opiate addiction/suicide epidemic happening in spite of all this "progress" and "technology" making our lives "better".

Hahaha, funny and astute. If you learned that kind of distinction or eagle eye insight from riding your Jeep I may have to re-evaluate my stance on jeeps. Nah, just kidding, my family and friends have terrorized me with off road vehicles for as long as I can remember. I kinda want to puke if I sit in a Wrangler. I may be a hillbilly but I don't have to be happy about it. ☹️ Sorry, I am just a serious wimp.

Follow the money, that is the rule. If you want to know where everything went wrong, follow the money. That is not entirely true though is it? Look at Rwanda in the eyes of the world they are the same yet they slaughter each other over their microscopic differences. This is what we are.

I have begun to believe that we are not a viable species. We are broken on a evolutionary level. It is so easy to point to men in this but women have to accept some responsibility. The macho, chest thumping, crotch scratching mentality might lead us to ruin, but whatever that leaves us women unable to see the the reality and benefits of contention is just as ruinous. I am being vague on purpose, it would achieve nothing to put everyone on the defensive. Please, no one take offense, I am not pointing fingers so much as pointing out that evolution has finally failed. It's up to us to move past this.

I understand, probably that is my curse, I understand all sides all the time.

Seth, I think that you are awesome and I seriously want to talk art with you one day but... what do you see as an alternative? To science I mean. We are failing, or actually maybe not we are not the first. The Romans could not make it past this point we are going to hit that same wall unless something changes. How do we get past this point? If we fail now and make a go at it in another thousand years, what then?

I don't know. We are experiencing growing pains on an unprecedented global level, somehow we have to make that next step. I am not saying that science is the answer but all the other answers we have come up with were less than stellar.

I submit to you this dearheart, science isn't broken, we are. Please convince me I am wrong. Can we survive without help? Help that science could perhaps offer?

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 25, 2018, 12:43:35 AM
I submit to you this dearheart, science isn't broken, we are. Please convince me I am wrong. Can we survive without help? Help that science could perhaps offer?

I tend to agree and I don't feel particularly positive about the outcome. The key change from the past is that we have the means to destroy ourselves and keep coming up with new and easier ways to do it. There's not too much chance of anything happening any particular year, but the years do stack up one after the other.

I'm concerned technological advances causing serious social instability. There's going to be massive changes in jobs coming and jobs that once seemed safe may not exist much longer. I've no idea what I'd do if I were planning a future career right now. There's no stopping it, and I'd not want to if we could, but its is a bit worrying.

Ignoring my personally situation I'd rather be growing up now than when I did. The world is a better place, or at least my part of it and I greatly prefer the advances in technology that have come. I sometimes wonder how I lived before Internet, and for the life of me I can't work it out. And there's endless other advances. Socially things are much better, though recent events do have me wondering about the future.

On the subject of obsolescence part of it is because the costs of goods these days is so low and the constant drive to reduce it further. Using computers we now have the ability to design products that trade off cost against reliability. I recently bought a new washing machine, and the brand famous for lasting decades is still available - but several times the price - I bought the usual throw away when it breaks brand instead (i.e. all the others). Other factors are disposable income and entertainment - most people don't need a brand new phone, but they can have it anyway.

I believe its highly likely self driving cars will change the world. People won't own cars, it will be cheaper to just call one when you need it - like Uber, but without the driver. A few companies like Uber will own vast fleets of cars and have their own service networks (putting all the current ones out of bushiness). Car design will change to emphasize reduced cost for this purpose - at a guess longer life and more reliability. Driving speed will go up and congestion down as computer control allow cars to be driven with full knowledge of what every other car on the road is doing. Current jobs related to commercial driving will be eliminated and fewer different jobs created. Safety and lower costs will eventually lead lead to human driven cars being banned from the public roads.

I think it would have been better if I were never born at all

I never wish I had been born decades later but I often wish I had transitioned much, much earlier, and I transitioned socially when I was 18, two years and a half ago.

I feel blessed that I'm going to live the rest of my life as a woman. But I look at childhood pictures and such, and I cringe that that was ever me. I actually had a really cute, pretty look as a child and everyone told me I looked so adorable and I just wouldn't stop talking. Lol. But it's painful to think nobody allowed me to dress how I would like, or buy the toys I wanted, or have the haircut I wanted. I know it seems like superficial stuff. But even being a teen was very hard and isolating. I actually think the times without all the technology had somnething of magical to them. I would have loved to grow up in the same era, but in the right gender. I look at old photos from the 90s and early 2000's and think the photos have something different to them. It's just so beautiful. Photos today have much better quality technically, and so much more definition, yet there's something in me that makes me gravitate towards those old photos.

To V M, aww! :( I have felt like that before. I know it's painful. Let me hug you right now. ((((HUG))))

Quote from: Roll on February 24, 2018, 09:47:52 PM
Several things to consider there:
1) Rapid turnover of electronics are largely unnecessary, and the "new versions" are contrived to sell, not actually substantial upgrades the way they used to be. This particularly true in the case of phones, as because of market penetration of older versions most apps/games/etc. will be developed for the largest installed user base anyway, and not the recent models. If only 1% of people have a Galaxy 8 or iPhone X, there's no money in it for app developers. It is all pure hype designed to sell the phones by highlighting a few features that would work just as well on older processors, they just parcel them out over time to make things seem innovative.

2) Rapid obsolescence also exists in cases where there is no clear upgrade, or the upgrade is unattractive, such as PC power supplies or routers (at least upgrades as far as 99.9% of users are concerned), but still must be replaced because of purposefully shoddy construction. Somehow I doubt you are itching for the newest TP-Link model. ;D

3) Such replaced devices are a massive, MASSIVE, environmental hazard. They waste precious resources, and often suffer from severe disposal issues.

4) Planned obsolescence can cause secondary effects beyond simply replacing hardware, such as important data loss. Not everything is sync'd to a remote server, and in fact by encouraging things to be we are creating yet more environmental damage (if anyone wants to drop your carbon footprint, delete those pointless extra photos of your brunch from 4 years ago off of any cloud storage and get your friends and family to do the same).

I would add the lack of the ability to fix or refurbish stuff easily or at all. Throw it away and start over. Couple that with quality and quality fade issues and we own a lot of crap. In some cases, like with modern cars, some maintenance and parts replacement can't be shockingly high. Turbochargers, timing belts, etc. to have timing belt done on some vehicles approaches $3000. That turbo died? More than that. Engine replacement can be $6000 to almost $60000 depending on the car.  Give me a or odb II truck and I can do an engine for less than half the cheapest. The real costs of ownership are rarely considered and with loans going out to 96 months now, one could still be paying off something that doesn't work anymore and is too expensive to fix.

As far as carbon footprint, not my religion. Then again I don't have a religion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: Julia1996 on February 24, 2018, 03:41:32 PM
Why would anyone want those old records . . . No static (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HV3zWSawJiw) or anything like that.

         Had to have been there I suppose! Click link within your quote - there's a song about it!! We always had FM and now there's XM! Vacuum tube analog still maintains better sound quality which is to point: newer is NOT necessarily better, just more "convenient'?

Oh, and btw, XM's Classic Vinyl station deliberately adds "the static" in prior to playing each selection! What's with that! ?

Quote from: Gertrude on February 25, 2018, 07:18:55 AM

As far as carbon footprint, not my religion. Then again I don't have a religion.

Same for me, I was being a little facetious with that part. ;D A lot of people I know who talk about their "carbon footprint" while yelling at me for little things are incredibly unaware of the million things they do that send theirs way above mine by orders of magnitude. They still haven't learned the cloud is not some magical thing that exists in the ether, but rather a ton of energy hungry, giant server farms in the middle of New Mexico that have to be expanded daily because people won't delete the 37th video they took of their dog being weird that day.

Quote from: Kiera on February 25, 2018, 08:18:32 AM
         Had to have been there I suppose! Click link within your quote - there's a song about it!! We always had FM and now there's XM! Vacuum tube analog still maintains better sound quality which is to point: newer is NOT necessarily better!

Oh, and btw, XM's Classic Vinyl station deliberately adds "the static" in prior to playing each selection!

Technically speaking, due to the way digital and analog data and signals work, it is true that analog sounds more faithful. Analog (actual instruments) to analog does not alter the waveform, whereas analog to digital will. But the clicks and hisses and pops of old records or the flaws with stuff like crinkled tape? The longing for those are just nostalgia due to years of acclimation, they aren't actually meant to be there!! ;D

Though it should also be said there is a point that digital vs analog is entirely indistinguishable by the human ear, and it is no longer physically an issue that analog is technically more accurate. It's something we can easily do today even, not like an "in the future thing", it's just not practical in terms of file size (or bandwidth utilization when it comes to streaming).

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fclas.mq.edu.au%2Fspeech%2Facoustics%2Ffrequency%2Fgraphics%2F800px-Pcm.gif&hash=0d5723167af2317c5c1c5ec523bd7f62a00ad802)

The smooth continuous line is analog, and when converted to digital its amplitude will be approximated at a regular time interval, creating the step pattern of the digital signal. Increase the bit rate high enough, and you can't even see the "jagged" steps of the digital at all (exactly how the continuous analog waveform in this image looks curved, but of course is just a series of pixel "steps" itself in this representation, which would be completely visible if you zoomed in), and the human ear certainly can't tell the difference since everything we see or hear are just rough approximations by our brain anyway. (Conversely, this is also why lower bit rates, meaning less points in time and "broader" steps, sound absolutely horrible.)

Quote from: Kiera on February 25, 2018, 08:18:32 AMVacuum tube analog still maintains better sound quality

Yes.  The best sound quality I ever heard was AM radio on the vacuum tube radio in my 1938 Packard.  Man, that thing was clear!

And recording studios still use tubes in some components.  The signal from a microphone needs to be amplified before it can be digitized, and the preamps used for that often use tubes for the cleanest sound.

Being born later may or may not benefit you, but lets consider that you being here in the first place was a miracle in itself, since your birth depended on some chance encounters; first your parents had to meet, then the sperm and egg that made you you was a chance encounter, and the odds of replicating that are probably slim to none, so being here at all is something to be thankful for. And if you were born later, you probably wouldn't be trans, and you would also have a different nature and nurture set of circumstances, which could be good, or could be bad-really bad; so all things considered I think we should be happy being who we are in the here and now, and make the most of it, and if there are things we want changed we can affect the change in various ways. 

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on February 25, 2018, 12:43:35 AM
Hahaha, funny and astute. If you learned that kind of distinction or eagle eye insight from riding your Jeep I may have to re-evaluate my stance on jeeps. Nah, just kidding, my family and friends have terrorized me with off road vehicles for as long as I can remember. I kinda want to puke if I sit in a Wrangler. I may be a hillbilly but I don't have to be happy about it. ☹️ Sorry, I am just a serious wimp.

Good lord, I'm sorry about that experience! I know a lot of wheeling-types can be outright jerks. So I do not blame you one iota! My rig, however, is hardly a "rig" at all - I'm a fan of the Cherokee, and I plan on keeping mine clean and driveable for at least another decade. The restoration, if you will, of a classic car. With the occasional rip out into the dirt. :9

QuoteI have begun to believe that we are not a viable species. We are broken on a evolutionary level. It is so easy to point to men in this but women have to accept some responsibility. The macho, chest thumping, crotch scratching mentality might lead us to ruin, but whatever that leaves us women unable to see the the reality and benefits of contention is just as ruinous. I am being vague on purpose, it would achieve nothing to put everyone on the defensive. Please, no one take offense, I am not pointing fingers so much as pointing out that evolution has finally failed. It's up to us to move past this.

Theorists, political philosophers, and historians sometimes try to figure out when our "fall from eden" happened in evolutionary terms. Some blame capitalism, some blame the nation-state, some see it fit, once they start down that rabbit hole, to go all the way back to the taming of fire itself. I think human cognition itself is fraught - our ability to think in terms of "what if"s and possible futures might have been what did it.

QuoteSeth, I think that you are awesome and I seriously want to talk art with you one day but... what do you see as an alternative? To science I mean. We are failing, or actually maybe not we are not the first. The Romans could not make it past this point we are going to hit that same wall unless something changes. How do we get past this point? If we fail now and make a go at it in another thousand years, what then?

I don't know. We are experiencing growing pains on an unprecedented global level, somehow we have to make that next step. I am not saying that science is the answer but all the other answers we have come up with were less than stellar.

I submit to you this dearheart, science isn't broken, we are. Please convince me I am wrong. Can we survive without help? Help that science could perhaps offer?

Thank you, I think you're pretty awesome too. It makes me feel a little better to know that others are thinking about these things. As far as science goes, there is no alternative; but it shouldn't be an ideology either, the way it is now. Science is but one tool for understanding the world alongside a host of others, including emotional intelligence and spiritual intelligence. There are things the hands know that the waking, thinking, mind will never understand. My body, even, knew I was trans long before my head did.

I'm skeptical of people who have answers anymore, so I offer none. I, personally, do not experience long-term hope, but nor do I especially experience long-term dread. Come what may - in the meantime, I'll be working on my car and going fishing. Though if you read authors like John Michael Greer, and his inspiration, Oswald Spengler, you'll come away with the understanding that faith in science, or science-like structures follows a pretty reliable pattern over the course of histories and nations. If the two of them are to be trusted, which I think they are as they've done their homework, then the current state of science is a natural stage in the life cycle of civilizations, and it will soon be met with an overwhelming opposition party of religious zealots that will come to dominate the political landscape for some time to come. Rome went through this, I believe, as well as a number of Asian civilizations over the past few thousand years. I think asking if there's an answer or alternative to this is like asking if there's an answer or alternative to growing old - there is, but it's just that you must learn to age gracefully, rather than spend your years trying to find the elixir of life.

I don't believe we're broken - most species are designed to reproduce into overshoot, and reorganize the conditions of their environment to suit that goal, which is precisely what we've done on a mass scale. Science was just one tool to get us there, and it's done a spectacular job. The alternative to that, however, isn't pretty. Try Jared Diamond's Collapse and you'll see what I mean. Unfortunately, these measures certain societies have taken over the course of human history to manage themselves and their pesky "carbon footprints" can be difficult to read about. But at the same time... they work.

Either way, terrible things are probably coming for most people on Earth (the people, that is, who are not billionaires), and and doing what needs to be done to take care of those around us and survive and seek happiness is no original sin.

I, however, would not bank my emotional well-being on lab-grown anything (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/12/quorn-revolution-rise-ultra-processed-fake-meat). It's a resource bubble waiting to burst.

Quote from: Roll on February 25, 2018, 08:43:31 AM
Same for me, I was being a little facetious with that part. ;D A lot of people I know who talk about their "carbon footprint" while yelling at me for little things are incredibly unaware of the million things they do that send theirs way above mine by orders of magnitude. They still haven't learned the cloud is not some magical thing that exists in the ether, but rather a ton of energy hungry, giant server farms in the middle of New Mexico that have to be expanded daily because people won't delete the 37th video they took of their dog being weird that day.

Engineering problems a shouldn't be moral ones. Once we assign morality to a belief, it becomes a religion. After 8 years of parochial school, I've had my share, whether the deity is god, the planet or science. It comes down to trying to control people socially, which is a coercive force. I try to skip those exercises.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: Gertrude on February 25, 2018, 11:03:39 AM
Engineering problems a shouldn't be moral ones. Once we assign morality to a belief, it becomes a religion. After 8 years of parochial school, I've had my share, whether the deity is god, the planet or science. It comes down to trying to control people socially, which is a coercive force. I try to skip those exercises.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I just meant in that I hate the hypocrisy of those complaining while taking actions in direct contradiction to their complaint due to shear ignorance. (Ie: Complaining about eating a hamburger due to cattle grazing C02, while eating a bowl of rice which creates far more.) Though I do also lament impracticality. (Going back to the server farms, so much of the data is just 100%, absolutely, without question unwanted and unnecessary and often times people don't even know it's there when it syncs to cloud storage automatically or whatever. That is just simply waste, and my OCD makes me detest even harmless waste. Which plays into my originally mentioned peeve in the iPhone/etc. marketing cycle, as it serves no practical purpose beyond increasing so and so's stock price by .2% once in a while.)

Quote from: BT04 on February 25, 2018, 09:52:07 AM. . . our ability to think in terms of "what if"s and possible futures might have been what did it . . . Come what may - in the meantime, I'll be working on my car and going fishing.

        OMG you sound just like one of my FAV author's character Candide!
And, LOL an ole' habit, I couldn't resist!

Quote from: Gender Genie says:
Total words: 635
Genre: Informal
  Female = 588
  Male   = 1433
  Difference = 845; 70.9%
  Verdict: Very MALE (my emphasis)

         By way of explaination (in case not already familiar?): It begins with a young man, Candide, who is living a sheltered life in an Edenic paradise and being indoctrinated with Leibnizian optimism (or simply "optimism") by his mentor, Professor Pangloss.[7] The work describes the abrupt cessation of this lifestyle, followed by Candide's slow, painful disillusionment as he witnesses and experiences great hardships in the world. Voltaire concludes with Candide, if not rejecting optimism outright, advocating a deeply practical precept, "we must cultivate our garden", in lieu of the Leibnizian mantra of Pangloss, "all is for the best" in the "best of all possible worlds".

Quote from: Roll on February 24, 2018, 11:44:15 PM
I'd say that self driving cars are actually one of the few things that would be a massive, practical benefit to the world. Fully automated transportation would be far more efficient in every way: speed (traffic issues could largely be eliminated), fuel (optimized everything else means optimized fuel usage), time (think what you could accomplish in the time you spend driving each day), and most importantly, safety (fatal collisions would drop to a fraction of what they are now, if not become virtually non existent). Perhaps most importantly though, it would open up access to the larger world to people who previously did not have it. People who are handicapped or suffer from other issues that prevent them from driving, and I speak from experience on this (I didn't have my license until 2 months ago because of severe anxiety and phobias surrounding driving). Of course, it is pretty much an all or nothing scenario, and none of the benefits can be fully recognized without complete conversion to the driver-less model. (Also, it doesn't mean there can't be separate areas that are driver-less with additional areas that allow for human control for those who actually enjoy driving. But think about the daily city commute, does anyone really "enjoy" that? That is the area where they are needed.)

And what are the social ramifications of eliminating millions of jobs that lower to middle income people depend on?  Face it, for millions of workers this IS their level of competence.  No amount of retraining (which is never provided) will ever change that fact.  Amazon has already completed fully automated warehouses. No more warehouse employees.  They are in a race with Uber now to produce driverless cars putting their billions to work to bring about that reality to a near future.   What will that future look like?  Millions of people in a permanent state of unemployment.  A massive underclass with no work and no prospects.  What lies at the end of that road? Despotism?

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 26, 2018, 12:11:10 AM
And what are the social ramifications of eliminating millions of jobs that lower to middle income people depend on?  Face it, for millions of workers this IS their level of competence.  No amount of retraining (which is never provided) will ever change that fact.  Amazon has already completed fully automated warehouses. No more warehouse employees.  They are in a race with Uber now to produce driverless cars putting their billions to work to bring about that reality to a near future.   What will that future look like?  Millions of people in a permanent state of unemployment.  A massive underclass with no work and no prospects.  What lies at the end of that road? Despotism?

Probably.

Both yes and no. Yes for internet being the thing that made me know about this. I found out at age 30 that there is something called transgender. I wish I had found out much earlier.

And no. The self confidence I have now can not be compared to the insecurity I felt as a teenager. I feel more secure and sure about who I am now at 40.

I am happy the doctors and scientists find new ways to correct people's bodies. I am happy for the kids that realize at an early age who they are and can get the new treatments. But I would not want to be a teen now, at the age of internet bullying.


Tony

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 26, 2018, 12:11:10 AM
And what are the social ramifications of eliminating millions of jobs that lower to middle income people depend on?  Face it, for millions of workers this IS their level of competence.  No amount of retraining (which is never provided) will ever change that fact.  Amazon has already completed fully automated warehouses. No more warehouse employees.  They are in a race with Uber now to produce driverless cars putting their billions to work to bring about that reality to a near future.   What will that future look like?  Millions of people in a permanent state of unemployment.  A massive underclass with no work and no prospects.  What lies at the end of that road? Despotism?

You are conflating issues. The only industry who would develop structural unemployment because of driver-less cars would be taxi services, which is an extraordinarily minute section of the economy, and a fairly broken one at that (see: taxi medallions, the million Uber issues, etc.). It is not the same as factory automation in the slightest, the two forms of automation share little in common in what is required of them even.

Also, when it comes down to it, say that it was the same and led to large scale structural unemployment. Well, that is inevitable by nature and inherently temporary (long term structural unemployment is a failure of government and corporate management, which is a different issue altogether). But the benefits? 1.3 million people die per year in car accidents. You would trade 1.3 million lives for half a million jobs?

There appears to be 3.5 million truck drivers in the USA. Presumably there's a lot of people working support services for food and rest as well. I'd guess they will be out of work.

Also, many small shops, eateries, and hotels in non-destination locations would probably go out of business because nobody would ever think to program their car to take them there - the sorts of places that folks wander through on their way to someplace else, and would never have found such a settlement otherwise. Remember what happened to all the little towns along Route 66? The same would happen most everywhere.

See also: The Art of Getting Lost (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/travel/19EssayLostEurope.html)

As the question is EVER wished, then I would have to answer YES.

I was born in 1955 and if I could choose year or decade to be born, I would probably say 1985 - 1990 such that by the age of 20, I could have transitioned fully as Transgender matters became more in the public domain in 2005. We still have many problems, but life is gradually improving for us and hence if younger, we can transition earlier and get many more years living as our true selves.

Ignoring the EVER, then on balance I am reasonably content with my life and achievements and family and I think I would not change the time I was born.

Quote from: pamelatransuk on February 26, 2018, 09:55:15 AM
As the question is EVER wished, then I would have to answer YES.

I was born in 1955 and if I could choose year or decade to be born, I would probably say 1985 - 1990 such that by the age of 20, I could have transitioned fully as Transgender matters became more in the public domain in 2005. We still have many problems, but life is gradually improving for us and hence if younger, we can transition earlier and get many more years living as our true selves.

Ignoring the EVER, then on balance I am reasonably content with my life and achievements and family and I think I would not change the time I was born.

The internet was avaible to most people in the late 90s, which allowed easy access to transition information, and allowed a lot boomers to learn, and develop a plan to transition during that time period; however, transition still wasn't doable at that time for some due to finances, family obligations, or other circumstances.  And transitioning for younger people still isn't that easy as they lack the support from their family and peers, and do not have the finacial stability to properly support themselves, or have enough money to be able to afford expensive surgeries; so, transitioning earlier does not necessarily mean an easier transition; some younger MtF trans persons have a lot of testosterone exposure, which even at a young age of 20, still causes a lot of facial bone growth which necessitates FFS.

Quote from: V M on February 25, 2018, 05:03:10 AM
I think it would have been better if I were never born at all

I disagree in the strongest possible terms. :) *hugs*

But regarding the question posed in the thread: no, I haven't. Everything we have now is built on people who have come before us. The awareness, and accessibility of treatment for our condition is only really a thing because of people who were born before us, facing that world of disbelief and hostility. Making those changes and fighting for recognition which has led to the research, technical refinement of procedures and overall awareness of what we go through.

I think that everyone has a part to play in things. For myself, my experiences in life have been used to help others get to where they want to be, to seek the help they need, and to further the awareness and knowledge about who we are and the best ways to help us get the treatment we need. And I am very proud of that. It's part of what makes me who I am.

I am very happy that things have advanced, and that people seeking help now have more tools at their disposal. But I don't wish I had only been born into this age now. I am happy to have been a small stepping stone in achieving that, and I feel that I've played my part. :)

Quote from: BT04 on February 25, 2018, 09:52:07 AM
Good lord, I'm sorry about that experience! I know a lot of wheeling-types can be outright jerks. So I do not blame you one iota! My rig, however, is hardly a "rig" at all - I'm a fan of the Cherokee, and I plan on keeping mine clean and driveable for at least another decade. The restoration, if you will, of a classic car. With the occasional rip out into the dirt. :9

Theorists, political philosophers, and historians sometimes try to figure out when our "fall from eden" happened in evolutionary terms. Some blame capitalism, some blame the nation-state, some see it fit, once they start down that rabbit hole, to go all the way back to the taming of fire itself. I think human cognition itself is fraught - our ability to think in terms of "what if"s and possible futures might have been what did it.

Thank you, I think you're pretty awesome too. It makes me feel a little better to know that others are thinking about these things. As far as science goes, there is no alternative; but it shouldn't be an ideology either, the way it is now. Science is but one tool for understanding the world alongside a host of others, including emotional intelligence and spiritual intelligence. There are things the hands know that the waking, thinking, mind will never understand. My body, even, knew I was trans long before my head did.

I'm skeptical of people who have answers anymore, so I offer none. I, personally, do not experience long-term hope, but nor do I especially experience long-term dread. Come what may - in the meantime, I'll be working on my car and going fishing. Though if you read authors like John Michael Greer, and his inspiration, Oswald Spengler, you'll come away with the understanding that faith in science, or science-like structures follows a pretty reliable pattern over the course of histories and nations. If the two of them are to be trusted, which I think they are as they've done their homework, then the current state of science is a natural stage in the life cycle of civilizations, and it will soon be met with an overwhelming opposition party of religious zealots that will come to dominate the political landscape for some time to come. Rome went through this, I believe, as well as a number of Asian civilizations over the past few thousand years. I think asking if there's an answer or alternative to this is like asking if there's an answer or alternative to growing old - there is, but it's just that you must learn to age gracefully, rather than spend your years trying to find the elixir of life.

I don't believe we're broken - most species are designed to reproduce into overshoot, and reorganize the conditions of their environment to suit that goal, which is precisely what we've done on a mass scale. Science was just one tool to get us there, and it's done a spectacular job. The alternative to that, however, isn't pretty. Try Jared Diamond's Collapse and you'll see what I mean. Unfortunately, these measures certain societies have taken over the course of human history to manage themselves and their pesky "carbon footprints" can be difficult to read about. But at the same time... they work.

Either way, terrible things are probably coming for most people on Earth (the people, that is, who are not billionaires), and and doing what needs to be done to take care of those around us and survive and seek happiness is no original sin.

I, however, would not bank my emotional well-being on lab-grown anything (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/12/quorn-revolution-rise-ultra-processed-fake-meat). It's a resource bubble waiting to burst.

😆 I thought that it turned out well, better than some of the things I have written after a few drinks. Wake up the next day, and it's like, 'I wrote that?'

Lol, a Cherokee is not so bad. Um, usually. Do you need a step ladder to get in?

I think that normally I would not have given my opinions on that subject at all. Same with the art thread, wasn't drinking then though I just love art. Not like a student or artist, more like a groupie. 😊 I usually keep my mouth shut around smart or educated people. Not that I am stupid or anything but I am not well educated at all. Lol, I feel that is a bit of an understatement, I quit my senior year 3 years in a row. I was having a hard time then I guess, but no excuses.

Yes, this is one of the things that go through my brain. I say broken too much and it didn't fit there. I guess what I was saying is that people have a tendency to blame science or technology without thinking that it is people behind that science. People that decide what to do or not with technology.

I haven't read those authors, haven't really read anything in five years or more period, but I have considered how cyclical history is. What I wonder is, have we reached the end of some of those cycles? This technology is not isolated anymore. How can the Chinese or Romans have been isolated? Well, compare it to now when almost everything we know is available in almost every livable place on earth. Is there a critical mass in other words? Anything short of cataclysmic is not stopping it now. Also, how much power can religion drum up anymore? I am not underestimating human fear and what it could do, give people enough fear then offer a solution and watch the mass migration. BUT again, this is world wide, all of the nooks and crannies of the human race, can religion control all of that?

I don't know, I have no answers but I do spend a ridiculous amount of time thinking of this kind of stuff. I have felt that fear for the future. I know that my grandparents did too, and their grandparents and probably their grandparents. Who knows.

Yes and no. Yes because it is much more acceptable today then back when I was say twenty. When I was twenty there were only a handful of surgeons. Few if any in the US. Today we have much more local resources. But then No because there are still those out there that hate us and they are making a comeback. The hypocrisy is they say, every life is precious yet once you are born nobody wants anything to do with us. However what I have observed in the last week or two gives me great hope for the future. The kids are alright

Quote from: BT04 on February 26, 2018, 09:47:52 AM
Also, many small shops, eateries, and hotels in non-destination locations would probably go out of business because nobody would ever think to program their car to take them there - the sorts of places that folks wander through on their way to someplace else, and would never have found such a settlement otherwise. Remember what happened to all the little towns along Route 66? The same would happen most everywhere.

See also: The Art of Getting Lost (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/travel/19EssayLostEurope.html)

Ride a motorcycle then


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: KathyLauren on February 24, 2018, 09:50:24 AM
While there was a lot of pain in my former life, I lived it well.  I did some cool things, including something that would not have been possible if I had transitioned earlier: flying a jet in the air force.  (They only allowed male pilots at the time.)  All things considered, I am happy with it.  It got me to where I am today, which is a good thing.

I could regret not having transitioned sooner, but I don't.  Regret would tarnish the joy of my new life.  I don't need to go there.
Obviously, there is a before and an after, with some rather large distinctions between them.  And I do find it convenient sometimes to talk like there are two different people: him and me.  But it is all me.  I don't think of myself as two people.

While my body is being transformed, as are my social interactions and some legal documents, there is no transformation of who I am.  I am still me, the same me that I have always been.  I just get to show more of me to the world now.

You did it again, Kathy. You sure save me a lot of time thinking and typing. All I have to say is ditto.


- Stephanie

Quote from: Roll on February 26, 2018, 07:18:27 AM
You are conflating issues. The only industry who would develop structural unemployment because of driver-less cars would be taxi services, which is an extraordinarily minute section of the economy, and a fairly broken one at that (see: taxi medallions, the million Uber issues, etc.). It is not the same as factory automation in the slightest, the two forms of automation share little in common in what is required of them even.

Also, when it comes down to it, say that it was the same and led to large scale structural unemployment. Well, that is inevitable by nature and inherently temporary (long term structural unemployment is a failure of government and corporate management, which is a different issue altogether). But the benefits? 1.3 million people die per year in car accidents. You would trade 1.3 million lives for half a million jobs?

1.3 million is a world-wide figure. 37,000 is the US figure.

And you're assuming that automated cars won't cause deaths.

Also, how is it conflating issues when the same company, Amazon, the largest growing retailer in the economy, had committed to a business plan of a fully automated retail business model from purchase point to delivery point? We're talking drones, robots, driverless vehicles, electonic transmissions, massive workerless, fully automated, warehouses.  God knows what else.
I didn't even mention the displacement caused already to retail jobs by Amazon.  Don't look now but folks ain't buying stuff at the malls like they used to. They just go there to look and then go home and buy the products on the internet.  How long do you think that will be sustainable?
Also, in the Midwest Rust Belt we have already created a large permanently unemployed segment of America where drug addiction has reached  epidemic levels.  Whole communities ravaged in part by automation.  That's just a drop in the bucket of what's coming down the road.

Quote from: Roll on February 24, 2018, 11:44:15 PM
Perhaps most importantly though, it would open up access to the larger world to people who previously did not have it. People who are handicapped or suffer from other issues that prevent them from driving, and I speak from experience on this (I didn't have my license until 2 months ago because of severe anxiety and phobias surrounding driving). Of course, it is pretty much an all or nothing scenario, and none of the benefits can be fully recognized without complete conversion to the driver-less model. (Also, it doesn't mean there can't be separate areas that are driver-less with additional areas that allow for human control for those who actually enjoy driving. But think about the daily city commute, does anyone really "enjoy" that? That is the area where they are needed.)

Surely society could figure a better way to provide handicapped people with transportation rather than dislocating jobs that millions of families depend on.

Quote from: Janes Groove on February 27, 2018, 12:07:39 AM
Surely society could figure a better way to provide handicapped people with transportation rather than dislocating jobs that millions of families depend on.

I always had the impression that capitalism comes before society, and I can't see it changing over this.

Quote from: Gertrude on February 26, 2018, 07:50:58 PM
Ride a motorcycle then


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I hope you're being facetious because you missed the point entirely.

Truthfully, technology is good and I would love for to one day be able to actually have a real penis and testes that actually can be used for reproduction and not just aesthetics, but I feel that societies attitude and the "big high and mighty law makers" views need to change first. It is ridiculous how people where and still are, for me I always had an issue with the world not changing for the better fast enough, it seems it only has gotten worst. So yeah science is good and all, but one of the huge issues that should of changed FIRST is still a problem in most countries. The disrespect of others can't be tolerated and truthfully as far as this generation's teens go, they only got more immature and rude...

Quote from: BT04 on February 27, 2018, 01:21:35 AM
I hope you're being facetious because you missed the point entirely.

It was re programming the car and staying on the interstates. I guess you missed my point. Motorcycles won't be autonomous. At least not in my lifetime.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: ShadowMT13 on February 27, 2018, 02:28:16 AM
Truthfully, technology is good and I would love for to one day be able to actually have a real penis and testes that actually can be used for reproduction and not just aesthetics, but I feel that societies attitude and the "big high and mighty law makers" views need to change first. It is ridiculous how people where and still are, for me I always had an issue with the world not changing for the better fast enough, it seems it only has gotten worst. So yeah science is good and all, but one of the huge issues that should of changed FIRST is still a problem in most countries. The disrespect of others can't be tolerated and truthfully as far as this generation's teens go, they only got more immature and rude...

I find the biggest negative of technology are the added abstraction layers that separate people from how stuff works. This dependency creates a type of incompetence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: Gertrude on February 27, 2018, 07:19:48 AM
I find the biggest negative of technology are the added abstraction layers that separate people from how stuff works. This dependency creates a type of incompetence.

It's also an advantage. It's been a long time since anyone was capable if understanding all scientific knowledge. By specialising we can individually can go deeper, and people who don't need to can totally ignore it and provide value elsewhere. Or not.

Avoided a previous reply because didn't want to go too deeply off topic, but seems that this thread is just the wild west at this point anyway so I'll say simply:

- Structural unemployment is a simple reality and has been since the dawn of civilization, it is outright necessary to ensure that people seek the skills that are required at that day. You cannot hold back technological progress because of it. Does it suck? Of course, and I'm not discounting those who suffer because of it. But you can't wish it away, no matter how much you try. Progress comes whether you like it or not. Dealing with the fallout of structural unemployment is a major socio-economic political issue that can be addressed through that avenue, the answer is not to simply freeze progress. (Certainly there is a weakness in addressing it, but that is beside the point.)

- You can't take the good of technology without the bad, even if you presume that something like this would be bad. For instance, the very fact we are talking right now. The fact that this forum and others like it are available. The fact that I can visit a therapist online (which, just btw, largely was necessary because as little as 2 months ago I couldn't drive because of severe phobias and anxiety!)... The surgeries we covet in particular... Not possible without the progression of technology.

- There are certainly options regarding transport with disability, but none afford the same independence that self-driving cars would. That independence is so important, and I can't even begin to explain the dehumanizing effects of not having it to those who have not felt it first hand, anymore than we can explain to cis people what it means to be trans.

- In a fully driverless system, deaths would be a fraction of what they are now, and it doesn't matter whether you are looking at just the US or not. There are always mistakes and exceptions when people are involved, even if just in programming the vehicles, but to think that it won't prevent the overwhelming number (like 99%) of deaths is just wrong.

- Again, driverless cars are not the same thing as automation. Frankly, driver-less cars unlikely to happen for another century at this rate anyway. Full retail automation meanwhile is but years away. Regardless, they are not intrinsically connected. It is very, very different technology that are two divergent areas of research. Automation is a matter of having machinery capable of simple tasks. Even then, Amazon is delusional, their plans are just pure vaporware to improve stock price. With current technology there are many facets of their business that simply cannot be automated or require human oversight regardless, even if just for legal purposes. And assuming that it was a reality, well that just goes back into the nature of structural unemployment. One job is obsolete, so you train for a different job. For every assembly line position lost, a programmer is hired. (And I refuse to acknowledge that anyone's ceiling of training is routine factory labor or driving. Despite everything, I have far more faith in humanity than that. I'm not saying the 55 year old factory worker is going to suddenly master Python and troubleshooting neural nets, but there are in betweens, programmer was just an easy example.)

Quote from: Gertrude on February 27, 2018, 07:19:48 AM
I find the biggest negative of technology are the added abstraction layers that separate people from how stuff works. This dependency creates a type of incompetence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

This bugs me as well. I really hate that disconnect between people being able to use technology and actually understanding technology. As far as the average person is concerned, their iPhone might as well be magic. I'm not saying they need to be able to pass an exam on their phone's architecture, but people should at least have some idea what goes into it.

Quote from: Roll on February 27, 2018, 08:59:11 AM
This bugs me as well. I really hate that disconnect between people being able to use technology and actually understanding technology. As far as the average person is concerned, their iPhone might as well be magic. I'm not saying they need to be able to pass an exam on their phone's architecture, but people should at least have some idea what goes into it.

The incompetence I speak of is more day to day basic. For those that are part of the under 30 generation, can they cook? Drive a stick? Know how to hammer a nail, what clockwise and counter-clockwise is, use any power or hand tools, know or understand how their house is put together vis a vis plumbing, electrical, structure? Everything is magic to them if they don't understand the basics, how can they understand an iPhone? It's not a gender thing either. The more that is done on one's behalf, the less one knows what to do or how it's done. An extreme example in drama of the consequences would be The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead. Cut people off from their dependance and dirt naps follow for many. The greater the separation from the reality of things makes it easier to influence and control people as well.

Nobody can understand everything in an industrial or post industrial society.  There is simply not enough time in one life to learn it all.  Humans have been specializing since at least the end of the Paleolithic era.  That's why we continue to advance.  So it's hardly a fault that people don't understand everything.  They don't need to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Deborah on February 27, 2018, 10:32:31 AM
Nobody can understand everything in an industrial or post industrial society.  There is simply not enough time in one life to learn it all.  Humans have been specializing since at least the end of the Paleolithic era.  That's why we continue to advance.  So it's hardly a fault that people don't understand everything.  They don't need to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Talking about the basics. Up until about 1850 a really smart person could understand everything that was known. Since then, not so much. That said, younger folks are more separated from how stuff works and it's not that they can't, but because they don't, they aren't exposed to it. If I can get the new stuff while knowing old stuff, I imagine they are capable and further, adaption works in both technological directions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: Roll on February 27, 2018, 08:55:58 AM

- Structural unemployment is a simple reality and has been since the dawn of civilization, it is outright necessary to ensure that people seek the skills that are required at that day. You cannot hold back technological progress because of it. Does it suck? Of course, and I'm not discounting those who suffer because of it. But you can't wish it away, no matter how much you try. Progress comes whether you like it or not. Dealing with the fallout of structural unemployment is a major socio-economic political issue that can be addressed through that avenue, the answer is not to simply freeze progress. (Certainly there is a weakness in addressing it, but that is beside the point.)

- You can't take the good of technology without the bad, even if you presume that something like this would be bad. For instance, the very fact we are talking right now. The fact that this forum and others like it are available. The fact that I can visit a therapist online (which, just btw, largely was necessary because as little as 2 months ago I couldn't drive because of severe phobias and anxiety!)... The surgeries we covet in particular... Not possible without the progression of technology.

There are assumptions implicit here that border on the ideological, and I'm going to point them out because they are rarely ever, in this day and age and in this culture, considered ideological and usually taken as mere fact:

1. The notion that "progress" exists and that it is linear (a mistake that people also often make when talking about evolution, for example), rather than circular, directionless, or some other shape. This is a rather modern, western notion that is not shared by, for example, most native peoples or even some of the ancient Greeks, who actually believed that progress was linear in the opposite direction.

2. The notion that "progress" is morally good, and to try and "stop" it, or to otherwise desire it's cessation is reprehensible. Note that the language often used subtly implies that progress functions similarly to a kind of cosmic gift-giving mechanism, whereby "stopping" it would amount to depriving people of something they are owed now or in the future. In this way, "progress" is no different than any promissory doctrine of religion that teaches X, Y, and Z actions (in this case, supporting or contributing to complex technological development, automation, AI, fiat production and delivery of goods, and the capitalist-consumerist crank that turns the whole machine) will result in achieving the modern secular equivalent of immortality or paradise. So to question the "goodness" of the progress concept in modern western society is about as well-received as questioning the existence of sin in a Baptist church.

Quote from: BT04 on February 27, 2018, 11:22:58 AM
There are assumptions implicit here that border on the ideological, and I'm going to point them out because they are rarely ever, in this day and age and in this culture, considered ideological and usually taken as mere fact:

1. The notion that "progress" exists and that it is linear (a mistake that people also often make when talking about evolution, for example), rather than circular, directionless, or some other shape. This is a rather modern, western notion that is not shared by, for example, most native peoples or even some of the ancient Greeks, who actually believed that progress was linear in the opposite direction.

I speak generally of explicitly technological progress, which while branching certainly can be clearly defined by any reasonable standard as moving forward, insofar as it isn't impacted by extraneous circumstances (ie: catastrophic events, mass book burnings in history, etc.). Cultural and sociological progress is a different thing entirely, and outside the scope of driver-less cars discussion.

Quote
2. The notion that "progress" is morally good, and to try and "stop" it, or to otherwise desire it's cessation is reprehensible. Note that the language often used subtly implies that progress functions similarly to a kind of cosmic gift-giving mechanism, whereby "stopping" it would amount to depriving people of something they are owed now or in the future. In this way, "progress" is no different than any promissory doctrine of religion that teaches X, Y, and Z actions (in this case, supporting or contributing to complex technological development, automation, AI, fiat production and delivery of goods, and the capitalist-consumerist crank that turns the whole machine) will result in achieving the modern secular equivalent of immortality or paradise. So to question the "goodness" of the progress concept in modern western society is about as well-received as questioning the existence of sin in a Baptist church.

I did not say that technological progress was morally good, on the contrary as I explicitly pointed out the subjective view of this issue being bad in the views of some. I simply stated that you can't take what favors you (again, the very fact of our conversation) without also taking what does not. Technology is inherently neutral, and its morality or goodness is determined by its use, but it is virtually impossible to pick and choose. Particularly considering that it is subjective in the first place.

I also speak of it from a logistical perspective, not that you shouldn't stop it, but that you can't, not practically. The advancements are being made, and short of millions of people going Unabomber, there's not a whole lot you can do about it, that ship has long since sailed. The better avenue is to focus on handling it and the fallout properly. (Ie: Proper government handling of structural unemployment to go back to the automation issue.) (Though in the instance of driverless cars, I would certainly suggest that you shouldn't. The good far outweighs any potential bad.)

Quote from: Roll on February 27, 2018, 01:43:33 PM
I speak generally of explicitly technological progress, which while branching certainly can be clearly defined by any reasonable standard as moving forward, insofar as it isn't impacted by extraneous circumstances (ie: catastrophic events, mass book burnings in history, etc.). Cultural and sociological progress is a different thing entirely, and outside the scope of driver-less cars discussion.

As I understand it, "forward" can only genuinely refer to the natural progression of causes and effects - being humans rather than photons or some other subatomic particle, time is fixed for us - and I'm sure we can all agree that causes happen before effects. I do not view increasing complexity, or the filling of 'notional space' (a concept that refers to the "room" that ideas and notions can occupy in a socio-psyco-cultural space, the implication being that there is a maximum carrying capacity) as being a good thing, and right now I'm very skeptical that the net positives outweigh the net negatives - or that the net positives are actually such, and that the rubric used to determine them isn't just plain broken.

QuoteI did not say that technological progress was morally good, on the contrary as I explicitly pointed out the subjective view of this issue being bad in the views of some. I simply stated that you can't take what favors you (again, the very fact of our conversation) without also taking what does not. Technology is inherently neutral, and its morality or goodness is determined by its use, but it is virtually impossible to pick and choose. Particularly considering that it is subjective in the first place.

I also speak of it from a logistical perspective, not that you shouldn't stop it, but that you can't, not practically. The advancements are being made, and short of millions of people going Unabomber, there's not a whole lot you can do about it, that ship has long since sailed. The better avenue is to focus on handling it and the fallout properly. (Ie: Proper government handling of structural unemployment to go back to the automation issue.) (Though in the instance of driverless cars, I would certainly suggest that you shouldn't. The good far outweighs any potential bad.)

I would disagree that all technology and all objects are neutral - I'd hardly consider a guillotine or conversion therapy (a psychological technology) to be neutral, let alone discriminatory language, language being a communicative technology. Also, if technology was neutral, then why is so much of it illegal? Certainly, culture doesn't agree with this notion, and since there's no escaping culture, I couldn't, in good faith, argue that it's neutral since there's no escaping cultural norms, only trading one for another.

From my research, it wouldn't take a million Unabombers to undo this, because we're setting ourselves up for structural failures pretty well as it is. The more complex a system is, the more moving parts it has, and the more opportunities for a black swan event to happen. Driverless cars are not an antifragile technology, and neither, frankly, is the whole of digital infrastructure. But as far as structural failures and resources bubbles are concerned, Gail Tverberg, an actuary internationally known for her work on energy and economic forecasting, has a lot of pretty good information about it. There are too many potential places to start there, but I'll suggest this slideshow presentation (https://ourfiniteworld.com/2017/03/29/why-energy-economy-models-produce-overly-optimistic-indications/).

I'd say it's hubris to assume that the greatest liability the system has is the incompetence of the user - rather, the greatest liability is the incompetence of its designers, which cannot ever be engineered away.

ETA: Oh, her most recent one, Nine Reasons Why Globalization Can't Be Permanent (https://ourfiniteworld.com/2018/01/31/nine-reasons-why-globalization-cant-be-permanent/) is also relevant to the discussion, driverless cars and all - especially since car parts are made in so many places, and digital infrastructure can't really exist without tightly-connected global markets due to the nature of computer hardware production.

Couldn't you, should you fancy, define technological progress simply as an increase in computational power? And wouldn't that be fairly easily assessed as moving forward?

Quote from: PollyQMcLovely on February 27, 2018, 08:03:14 PM
Couldn't you, should you fancy, define technological progress simply as an increase in computational power? And wouldn't that be fairly easily assessed as moving forward?

I mean, at the end of the day, the whole thing is really a philosophical question best left to be debated by white-haired men in fancy institutions with British names, or, I guess, actuaries who have the wherewithal to make sense of oceans of charts and graphs.

The post-mortem for Moore's Law (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601441/moores-law-is-dead-now-what/), though, has been written by a lot of smart people in the tech business. So by that definition, "progress" is coming to a standstill. Gonna need something else.

On that note, however, I'm bowing out. For those of you who remain unconvinced (everyone, I'm sure), I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on this single niche subject. Thanks for the debate practice, and apologies, OP, for hijacking your thread lol~

Moore's law isn't really relevant on large enough timescales if you remove human mortality from the equation. You could build a network so large that it would take ridiculous amounts of time to transfer data from one end to the other even at relativistic speeds and this wouldn't be an issue so long as the physical system is able to maintain itself.