After thinking about some of the new folks that have passed through our fine Unicorn forest...I thought it might be really nice to have a very *BASIC* and readable....so that we've got a nice starting point. (hopefully we might find this suitable for a sticky!)
So in your own words, perhaps even describing yourself...Just what is/who is an androgyn?
I'll start by saying that for the purposes of this discussion (and the purposes of this forum) *Androgyne* is an umbrella term for anyone who *identifies* as a gender expression/identity apart from Male or Female.
I'll start! ;D
I identify as androgyn, or third gender, or 2 spirit...or my favorite: FtA, because I feel it fits me and my journey best. :) FtA=Female to Androgyn.
For me personally...I (felt) that did fit fully and completely within the female identity. That was shattered and I realized how much of myself I was hiding and holding back.
I sought gender therapy to help me sort out how I was feeling...not fitting fully within female but definitly not feeling male...or WAS I FtM but just too scared/ashamed/what have you; to admit it!? That's why I took up therapy.
I was (am) VERY lucky to have found a therapist who doesn't subscribe to the binary (male/female) system. I thought perhaps just dressing male/androgynously/female (please note: Dressing androgynously is NOT the same as identifying as an androgyn.) however...the relief was very short lived because after all...my clothes weren't having gender issues...my inner sense of self was having issues.
I sought out testosterone therapy in hopes that it would bring me to a more centered place within myself and it has.
Many many people in my life assumed that once I started T I'd "realize" just how FtM I was and I'd admit it. Nope. Still an androgyn.
I would even say that I feel a little more fem than masculine. (If I must put it on a scale/spectrum...though I'd rather not.)
Let's see...well...that's about it for me! I look forward to hearing from others :)
Actually, Sevan, I agree with you. I think this would be a good thread to make sticky.
I did have some questions but I think I'll refrain from asking them in the hopes that future posts will shed further light, not to mention I struggle to put my thoughts down sometimes in such a way that they make sense to me, let alone others.
Nevertheless, I look forward to reading more from people in this thread. :)
Thank you Sephira! Hooray!!
I hope we answer your questions with this thread but if not, feel free to start a new thread and ask away.
Though I do hope some of the basics get covered in this thread and uh...shed some light ;)
Kia Ora and thank you both Sevan & Ativan,
::) I look forward to finding out more "about" how androgynes see them/yourselves and want others to see you...
No hard feelings I hope... :icon_bunch:
Metta Zenda :)
I can see why people who are not happy with the male/female gender dichotomy might be uneasy with the term "androgyne", given its etymological roots in that dichotomy, but I like it because to me it speaks of ambiguity, and there's nothing wrong with being ambiguous.
So although I experience myself as basically female somatically (though still stuck with male anatomically) and want a more female-appearing body, I consider myself fairly androgynous in my sense of self, and how I want to present to others. I have to admit (behold my hilarious reluctance!) that I'm warming to "genderqueer" as a term - but then I'm also finally warming to "queer" as a term :). To me it's just another way of pointing out to people that "things don't just have to be the menu-driven way we're accustomed to think they are." Alongside the part of me that wants to fit in and be accepted is another brighter self, who wants people not to be sure what I "am" because that frees us all up, potentially.
Why would anyone expect to be instantly understood by strangers anyway? ;D
I've had some trouble applying labels to myself, as I've drifted quite a bit since I started out here (labels are not required, I know; still, I think people like to classify things).
I started out with the MtFs. I had always been aware of some masculine element to my personality, but I assumed it was some kind of thing I put together to fit in socially (not that it really helped, haha). But it kept popping up whenever I tried to shut it off, just like the feminine part had done previously. I decided at some point that instead of forcing the two to fight until the other disappeared, I should try to let go and see where they decided to take me.
A little while after that, it occurred to me that perhaps neither side was some artificial construction; maybe they were both there from the beginning, and there was no need to kill one off so the other one could live. Boy, girl, both, neither... didn't really matter. I'm just myself. Gender conflicts pretty much stopped for me after that.
I never really stay in the same place genderwise anymore for very long (for example, I was kinda feminine this morning, very masculine a few hours ago, and basically genderless right now). Because of this drift, I tend to see masculinity and femininity not as opposites on a spectrum, but as two more or less unrelated attributes. If you were so inclined, you could plot them on a graph, with M and F each on their own axis. Someone could have a lot of one and none of the other; they could have equal amounts of both; not a lot of either; or both in large quantities (and of course, all other possible combinations). It's multi-dimensional, instead of being a straight line.
...Wow, that was a lot more science-y than normal. My apologies... ^_^
Anyway, 'androgyne', being some sort of umbrella term, works for me; the general public probably doesn't see me that way, though. Whichever.
What do you mean by "humor" Ativan? Such as our discussion (frequent....) of fruitcake? "Unicorn forest" and the like? Or something all together different that I've missed entirely...
QuoteI worry some that it puts off some new people here. That's why I bring it up here. To shed some light.
There was one newbie awhile back who got freaked out when I posted the Charlie the unicorn video for them. :laugh:
Am I wrong in not caring if anyone is put of by a bit of a joke around?
[cue music]
If that's wrong then I don't wanna be right
First, a few general observations, then a bit about how I feel and why androgyne seems to fit my true self.
Some personal observations:
Ambiguity/uncertainty for most people is a very uncomfortable place to be for even a short time. Those of us who go there regularly or who (god(dess) forbid! lol) like to be there are nearly unfathomable to the vast majority who need the comfort and apparent safety of certainty.
In the binary oriented transgender world, for various socio-politico reasons, there is a HUGE investment in the belief that transgenderism/GID is NOT a choice, that the discontinuity between the internal self and the somatic self is thrust upon some individuals. A corollary belief is that GID can only be cured/relieved by full transition. (It is not my intent to question these beliefs or any of the myriad reasons and rationales supporting them. For the purposes of my discussion here, I accept them at face value as basic truisms.) Any idea or person or thing that seems to contradict those two central dogmas seems to impede the cause of getting society at large to accept transgendered individuals as their identified gender and making transition resources more easily available and affordable. This must seem tantamount to heresy to the true believers.
One way we make sense of and interact with the world around us is through pattern recognition which involves organizing objects, beings and events into various classes, which are typically binary in nature: good/bad, dangerous/not dangerous, beneficial/detrimental. Of course there are infinite shadings and colors of meaning along any spectrum of characteristics, but it becomes heuristically unmanageable to deal with multiple complex systems without some mental simplification.
This is all really, really serious sh_t and cracking jokes and poking fun doesn't help anyone to be taken seriously (another belief, of course.) Geez, what the h_ll's the matter with you people?! (tongue planted firmly in cheek on that one!)
How I arrived in the forest (the quick and dirty version):
GID from earliest age/memories (didn't know that's what it was until recently, however): wanting to wear feminine clothes, makeup, have female parts. At the same time, I enjoyed being a boy and happily embraced that role. I have never felt my male parts were wrong; I just wanted female parts too. I have never felt my masculine traits were bad; I have just wanted to be able to express my femininity too. I knew from an early age (10 or 11) about transexuals (the term used as I was growing up in the late 50's early 60's) yet NEVER felt the need/drive to take that route. Fast forward to adulthood, middle age (sigh): Looking back (and after much therapy, experimentation and introspection) at the several disparate fields I have enjoyed working in and how I audaciously conned/finagled/talked my way into them, it is not solely from fear or not wanting to put myself in uncertain or uncomfortable positions that I did not seek transition. I have never shied from taking the road less traveled, and in fact, have repeatedly and intentionally derived a large measure of personal satisfaction and pride from doing/being the unexpected. My point is that transition just ISN'T the right option for me, and not just because I am afraid of the consequences or difficulties (HUGE! I have the utmost respect and admiration for the women on that path) involved.
One favorite diversion for me has always been reading, and especially science fiction. Growing up I read what came to be for me the seminal version of my GID: Time Enough for Love by Robert Heinlein. In this future novel, Lazarus Long, who through a mistake in biology lived many times a normal life span, tired of living longer and was going to allow himself to expire. He agreed to postpone his demise if the ultimate challenge (for him) could be devised to give him renewed purpose for living. The ultimate challenge turned out to be continuing life as a nubile, young woman. Trust me, this is hardcore, spaceships and aliens, laser blasters and time travel, science fiction by an arch-conservative, libertarian author. It was NOT porn. His female characters are 2-dimensional and overly endowed and sexed, but what did I know, I was an increasingly horny teenager reading my idea of the perfect scenario: being able to change gender by a very short, painless medical procedure! Yeeha! Obviously, going back was equally an option.
So, in my mythical, ideal world, I would be able to be male, and female. I could have my cake and eat it too; I could keep my boy parts, and have female ones as well. I guess you could say that I am the gender equivalent of a switch in sexual preference terms. Since I can't do what Lazarus Long did, and since I seem to thrive on ambiguity and uncertainty (and to be totally honest, I like messing with peoples heads--my INTJ side raising its hoary head--lol) I find myself blending the two in physical form and function.
In my mind, I am most emphatically not sitting on the fence, or resting in the transit lounge on my way to transition. I am in fact (I think we all are, it's just some are more willing to admit it than others) a study of contradictions. While the dysphoria has been extremely discomfiting at various periods of my life, it has also been the impetus for some of the greatest personal and spiritual growth and development I have experienced. At this point, I would not willingly give it up. All in all, I have been able to live pretty well on the tension between ideals and reality--whether resolved or not. In the final analysis, for me "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy sh_t, what a ride!"
Just my 50 cents (inflation, dont'cha know! LOL)
Here's the short version of how I ended up here.
I never fit in with being a boy when I was a child. I was often "mistaken" to be a girl, and then people would apologize when they realized their "mistake". I always wanted to say, "no, it wasn't a mistake, I'm not a boy."
As a young adult I identified for a while as gay and then later bi. In 1993, I realized I was trans and transitioned M2F. Did full time RLT for over a year and came to the conclusion that I was neither of the binary genders. I did not continue with any medical transition, although I occasionally contemplate HRT and transition again.
For many years I thought I was the only one who feels the way I do, then I found this forum. I identified as Androgyne for a while, but mostly I don't consider myself anything except Zythyra. I'm just not a fan of labels or identities, invariably I end up feeling boxed in by them. I think of Androgyne Forum as a safe space for somewhat like minded individuals, and I greatly enjoy the friendships I've made here.
Z
We are very serious about not having to take ourselves very seriously. It's a coping mechanism to keep us from being a bitchy bunch of whining complainers, which we could do very easily. [ Ativan ]
You are my mentor and I bow to you ole wise one ( in a very nonBinary nonGendered nonSexual inCongurent sort of way )
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 08, 2011, 12:20:19 AM
Am I wrong in not caring if anyone is put of by a bit of a joke around?
I certainly hope not...because I'd be wrong too. >:-)
Anyhoo, I find the Unicorn Forest to be a delightful, open, accepting place. It makes me love being Androgyne even more.
I feel that nowadays I am an androgyne and so don't have to worry about being one.
Hm, well, I do plan to push forward with transition despite being not entirely male-identified. I started out as FTM identified.
Internally, I don't really identify with either gender. That's mainly because I don't really know what gender is. Someone from the binary could attempt to explain it to me but I wouldn't get it. I don't understand how social concepts are labelled masculine or feminine either. Clothes, behaviours, temperaments, interests. I just got sick of sorting through it, trying to define parts of myself in terms of a binary understanding. I ended up feeling way too fragmented and taking myself way too seriously.
There is a certain amount of dysphoria present in my condition - which I will now fragment despite what I just said! I have Katy Perry worthy tits ( :o ), but I am profoundly disturbed by their existence. I feel so much better when binding and looking flat. I enjoy my clitoris but I would like it to grow larger and have more visible arousal, I never use my vaginal hole. I would like a deeper voice, a less curvy frame...all of which testosterone will do for me. I'm a little concerned about being hairy but that is treatable!
I have also wanted a hysterectomy since I was 12, and will be getting one. Externally I'll appear male, FTM. I don't have an issue with that. I don't have a particular issue with being perceived as female either, it's just the physical discomfort that goes along with the female body that fuels my need to move on with transition. I was hesitant to accept myself as androgyne because I previously believed that to deserve transition, I had to be a binary male and want desperately to be seen as a man. my dysphoria is certainly different from a binary transsexual, without a doubt, but it doesn't mean that it does not exist or that I am any less legitimate. I believe I am transitioning for the same reason as a transsexual: physical discomfort and dysphoria. I just don't share the connection between my body/physical presentation and my identity, I don't share the extreme need to be perceived as one sex or the other.
QuoteI feel that nowadays I am an androgyne and so don't have to worry about being one.
Just saw this as I was about to post. This is perfect, Pica. As FTM I found I was thinking I was going to "become" a man and that my identity was in progress. I always felt stressed and fragmented; trying to "exert" my manhood so people would take me seriously. But it isn't in progress! I already am who I am; the physical is just a complimentary thing really. I'm not going to attach anything further to it.
Quote from: Casey Leon on June 08, 2011, 05:52:24 PM
I ended up feeling way too fragmented and taking myself way too seriously.
I found this. The liberation and unification has been slow but definite.
It's nice though, isn't it?
I was snapped out of it when I was watching The L Word and I heard Jenny say this to her FTM boyfriend, Max:
QuoteMax: "I'm not okay, I can't wait for years and years. I'm totally freaking out, I can't be inside this body!"
Jenny: "And when you get the body you need, who's gonna live inside of it? Is it gonna be that sweet, kind compassionate person that I met or is it gonna be this mother>-bleeped-<ing MONSTER?"
It made me see I placed way too much weight on other people's perceptions of gender. That I was so much more than that. I had lost touch with my original reasons for transitioning, and become really unhealthy, both to myself and others. Easier said than done, my dysphoria was life-threatening at times so I understand the feeling of need very well, but I just got to a point where I couldn't let it consume me any more. I was losing my sweetness, my complexity, my kindness and compassion for others.
I don't have anything against people who are binary-identified. I do believe that many people legitimately need to transition to live life to the fullest, and sometimes, to live it at all. I don't question that, but it doesn't change the fact that were are so much more than our gender. I think everyone, from all walks of life tend to put too much weight into identity politics, trying to form an identity, when one is already there. Moving towards the future with little emphasis on the beauty of the present.
Something I've been thinking about and would like to put out there, if I may, is that perhaps part of the difference between binary and non-binary identified people seems to be a difference in emphasis on the way they see themselves.
I don't really know how to explain this very well, so I apologise in advance for the clumsiness in what I'm about to say.
If asked about my gender, I may say "I am female." But the emphasis in that statement would be "I am female". I've noticed that a lot of folks here, if they were to say "I am androgyne." The emphasis in that statement seems to be more "I am androgyne."
For binary folks, the individual is an expression of the gender identity, but for non-binary people the gender identity is an expression of the individual.
Please feel free to correct any of that if it's way off base.
Slowly but surely getting better, hon. Thank you. :) *hug*
I have to say, a lot of what I've read here has made me re-think, explore and question many of my prior views about a lot of things, and for that I wholeheartedly thank all of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. :)
Quote from: ativan on June 08, 2011, 10:08:11 PM
I think you can fit a group mentality in there also. 'We are Androgyn.'
That could just be the delight at that new feeling of 'we'. With all them males and females wandering around, it's nice to 'we' once in a while.
and Sephirah, I look that point lots, but I'd want to change it to 'I
am Androgyne' but that could be because I don't want to be seen as big headed (whether I am or not is a totally different matter).
I do like that quite alot...but I do want to add just HOW fantastic it felt to find the word "androgyn". It was...freedom, and "yes!!!!" and a light feeling of power and having found the word tha described how I felt about myself.
I suspect there have been many a trans binary person who's had a eureka moment of "I'm a man(or) woman!!!!!" and I definitly had that experience.
So the word androgyn does hold a very strong place for me...but I can see that many aren't as attached to the "androgyn" portion but rather the "I am" portion.
Spot on :)
Quote from: Luna! on June 06, 2011, 08:29:25 PM
I tend to see masculinity and femininity not as opposites on a spectrum, but as two more or less unrelated attributes. If you were so inclined, you could plot them on a graph, with M and F each on their own axis. Someone could have a lot of one and none of the other; they could have equal amounts of both; not a lot of either; or both in large quantities (and of course, all other possible combinations). It's multi-dimensional, instead of being a straight line.
Part of my androgyny is that I'd like to have a Z-axis of my own-- the one that comes out perpendicular to the other two.
Oh cool my sweetie got a sticky thred!
;D
The world is round
Actually, its more than just round, it's spherical - that is, it exists in 3 dimensions, not just two.
Isn't it a near perfect sphere or something?
"there is no dark side in the moon, really. As a matter of fact it's all dark"
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 09, 2011, 01:01:59 PM
Isn't it a near perfect sphere or something?
It's an oblate spheroid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblate_spheroid).
QI ftw. ;D
I find that infinitely more pleasing somehow.
"An everyday example of an oblate spheroid is the shape of the UK candy Smarties or US candy M&M's. The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid."
Smarties really do have the answer.
Canada has both M&Ms and Smarties! Can I safely assume from that quotation that the UK does not have M&Ms?
We do, and a huge m&m shop opening in Leicester square, even bigger than new yuck.
Good to know, I wouldn't want to write you off as total barbarians. :police:
I thought of something that could potentially back fire in a BIG way...(which I do. not. want.) or which may only make sense and be of value to...me. lol!! BUT I've found a few other like minds, and like thinkers here so...I'm HOPING that I'm gonna make sense here. I'm gonna do my BESTEST!
So...to break it down the simplest would be to just ask..."how do binary people view/experience non-binary people?"
Now...I know that some (often...me included..) bristle at the thought of being described BY someone else who isn't part of our community and identity...but let me explain why I'd ask this.
When I describe paganism (my personal belief) I often use Christian (type) lexicon to make my point sink in and make sense to the person I'm talking to. We come to a much faster understanding than if I were to use pagan lexicon such as "Yea...I'm a witch. We cast spells, celebrate the soltices and do energy work to be blessed by the Horned god."
Yea...that sentance wouldn't go so well with my more conservative friends and coworkers.
Which brings me back to my origional point...(and I think belongs in this thread because this could REALLY shed some light...) How would a binary person describe and make sense of a non-binary person.
Well, I can't speak in general terms, but specifically as it relates to me.
Quote from: Sevan on June 09, 2011, 08:08:42 PM
How would a binary person describe and make sense of a non-binary person.
I tend to subscribe to the Socrates quote:
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."In that regard, I wouldn't attempt to. One thing (among many) I've learned through journeying into this area of the forums is that there is no one single common viewpoint of what non-binary is. It's different for everyone it applies to. To gain some understanding of that I would turn it around and ask the non-binary person "how do you describe and make sense of yourself?"
Quote from: Sephirah on June 09, 2011, 08:36:09 PM
In that regard, I wouldn't attempt to. One thing (among many) I've learned through journeying into this area of the forums is that there is no one single common viewpoint of what non-binary is. It's different for everyone it applies to. To gain some understanding of that I would turn it around and ask the non-binary person "how do you describe and make sense of yourself?"
I quite understand...and kind of expected that reaction but I still felt the need to ask. The reason I ask is that I've explained myself as many different times, in as many different ways as *I know how*...and there are still a large portion of people in my life who scratch their heads and say "I don't get it. I WANT to get it! I support you!! But I don't get it...." and it's to them that I'd like to be able to use words that would make it actually successfully make sense.
I think I finally reached a place where I said "f*ck it" because I realized how impossible it was to define. I usually say both and neither. That's the best way I can describe it. I'm sure, like sexuality, gender is a gradient. I feel in the middle of that gradient and I feel uncomfortable in either role on opposite end. I can't be a girl and I can't be a boy, neither are me. It infuriates me when I'm treated like either, but I realize there's no way around it when people can't understand not having a gender, or at least a gender in the traditional sense. Maybe in 50 years the world will change and people will not be so hung up on labeling and whatever a person is we accept for the person, gender aside..maybe..
I'm at a place where I never explain to anybody, but sometimes they explain to me - especially when drunk.
"Hey Adam, You know, I've been thinking about you, and...no offence...but I don't think you are actually a man. (Quickly) But I don't think you're a woman either...you're a kind of...man/woman person. No offence though."
"None taken, I think that too."
"Do you?"
"Yeah."
"Makes sense."
"Pint?"
"Please."
Having read the whole thread today (for the first time), I have a short answer, and a long answer.
Short version: Androgyne is an umbrella term to describe anyone who does not identify as a male or a female.
Long version: There is an infinite variety of the way people perceive their gender. Most people, if you ask them, will say "I'm a male (boy, man, guy, dude, etc.)," others "I'm a female (girl, woman, princess, goddess, etc.)". These people are known as binary gendered people...they are one or the other. There are some people, however, who do not feel they fit so neatly in those two categories. They may be a mix of male and female (to varying degrees), both at the same time, neither, or their gender identities may float around all over the place. The people who aren't male or female are androgynes. There are as many sub-divisional categories of androgynes as there are people.
We all have a story to tell about how we came to understand that we weren't male or female. Most are very interesting and, amazingly enough, have a lot of points in common regardless of how we identify themselves.
A certain amount of irreverence seems to be another common trait. When one has spent a great deal of energy fighting against the societal pressure to conform to a male/female binary, a disregard of the gender rules inevitably follows. This also tends to spill over into many other areas of our lives. I tend to follow most of the rules of society that will keep me employed and out of jail, but generally consider the rest of them to be open to twisting, bending or breaking if the mood strikes me.
With the struggles to understand ourselves AND trying to explain why we aren't boys or girls, humor is a major coping mechanism. Given the choice to be in a constant state of rage over the injustice of being forced into a gender role that simply doesn't fit, or laughing at oneself and the incredible lengths people go to try to enforce "proper gender behavior", I'll take the laughter.
That doesn't mean there isn't still anger and frustration. Of course there is. But one gets so tired of fighting everyone. It's not that they are bad people, they simply don't understand. They can't comprehend the fact that we are happy outside the bounds of gender rules...and, truth be told, maybe just a little jealous.
Having finally cast off the roles and expectations of being a male, why in the world would I want to be subservient to the rules of being female? We are the Gender Outlaws. We are the free people who refuse to bow to the rigidity of historical gender rules. We are full of sh*t, and proud of it.
And yes, one does eventually reach the point of saying "F it". My "F it" response is usually followed by "This is who I am. If you don't like it, tough. You can be my friend, and accept me as I am, or you can go away and never bother me again. I'm not changing"
.....L
Well said Laurry :)
Having finally cast off the roles and expectations of being a male, why in the world would I want to be subservient to the rules of being female? We are the Gender Outlaws. We are the free people who refuse to bow to the rigidity of historical gender rules. We are full of sh*t, and proud of it.
^^^ Worth repeating.
We are full of sh*t and we are proud of it
We are full of sh*t and we are proud of it
We are full of sh*t and we are proud of it
We are full of sh*t and we are proud of it
The more apt part to pull out, I feel.
thanks laurry for your long answer. those are the thoughts i've been afraid of speaking about myself because i thought i might be the only one, or that maybe the transgender community wouldn't accept me for that. makes me feel so stupid for worrying about what other people may think about me
there's still one more thing i'm wondering about.. how "normal" do you think it is to wanna switch between a male, female, and androgyne appearance?
Quote from: ativan on June 13, 2011, 05:45:39 PM
define normal.....is it normal for you? do you want it to be normal? do you want others to think it is normal?
Here in the Androgyn Forest it's not even a question. It just is.
i see.. "normal" wasn't the right word to use at all, but i couldn't figure out how to say it, and you still gave the answer i wanted. it's not like i want it to be normal, it's normal for me, and that's all i need to know, really. hmm... i guess i'll be staying here for a while
Well, I'd say "normal" for you is what feels natural to you. If it's you, it's normal. :)
As a wise person once said...
We Are Normal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynafoaTYfXE#)
That video is full of win.
I 'came out' to a dear friend this weekend because it was
1. Pride
and I was
2. Drunk
and after I stumbled over about 3 sentences of 'I don't really feel like a woman and I have no idea what that would even feel like etc, etc' and she turned to me and said 'Yeah, no >-bleeped-<'. Worked for me! :laugh:
I'm in my 30's and so far I've gotten pretty used to what I'm NOT. I'm still floating around and working on the maybe's and I have a few definatess in my medicine pouch for safekeeping. I wish we had a sign or symbol so that I could see another non-binary gendered person on the street and run up and go 'HEEEEY!!!!!'. Until then I'll wear my one red and one blue earring and keep on being me.
Quote from: explorer on June 13, 2011, 05:25:05 PM
there's still one more thing i'm wondering about.. how "normal" do you think it is to wanna switch between a male, female, and androgyne appearance?
It's perfectly normal for some. I wore a long wig yesterday and today I'm wearing a binder, button down shirt and vest. *shrug* I just go with it :)
Quite timely. Thank you Pica dear! Very very nice.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 14, 2011, 12:18:41 PM
As a wise person once said...
We Are Normal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynafoaTYfXE#)
Hey that's an old one. Time for a new installment, I'd say. :D
Nah, just don't have the botherment anymore.
First and foremost I identify as "human".
After that, things get... complicated :-\ And I'm ok with that, even if most people aren't. I don't think I ever "truly" (whatever the h e double hockey sticks THAT means) identify completely as male or female but almost male and almost female. And of course it goes beyond outward appearance (are my nails polished today or have I cut them all off because they "felt" wrong? Is it a dress and makeup today or jeans and work boots?), it is something that I still can not quite put into words. It is simply who I am. A human being.
Though sometimes I think it would be easier to be an alien :D
if i were an alien i'd probably have a means to change my body to whichever shape i'd be happier with at any time..
you're right, being an alien might be easier
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.channelate.com%2Fcomics%2F2008-03-01-sexy-alien.jpg&hash=6c9726ee19fbf0f274527f305d70450cb3272489)
:D Good one, Pica!
Me too.
Bonzo dogs only rule the pink half of your drainpipe.
They bite
They scratch
They make an awful fuss
It's no use stroking them and saying "puss puss puss"
So Norman, if you are "normal", I intend to be a freak for the rest of my life - and I will baffle you with cabbages, and rhinoceroses in the kitchen, and sex and quotations from Now We Are Six, through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head... SO THEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERE...
My Pink Half of the Drainpipe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10bTLz2OYX8#)
Bonzos play for Beatles in Magical Mystery Tour, the song is Death Cab for Cutie, which is where the highly derivative and fantastically bland of that name ripped it off from.
The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band Death Cab For Cutie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9y4vLrHsm4&feature=related#)
This is the best Bonzo Video
DO NOT ADJUST YOUR SET - Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band - The Sound Of Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuklqJD3v0c&feature=related#)
Pre-internet there really was an avant-garde, and they were funny.
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I think the AG went away with the beginning of world-wide media and broadcasting. The Beats were kinda the last real American AG, everything that has followed since - hippies, punk, burning man, goth - are both mass movements (you could have had a reunion of all the real 'beats' in larger living room, there were only a very few of them), and they are largely commercial movements. They tend to be based heavily (as everything else is too) on sales, fashion, (Wear THIS> to be goth, Wear THAT> to be a punk, Hippie Hot Topic) then in any actual production. The real Beats wrote their way in, painted their way in, composed their way in while now people just tend to buy their way in.
perhaps we could get back on topic?
Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 03:33:52 PM
perhaps we could get back on topic?
Androgynity in action. ;D
I think there are still movements, but very local, a few friends creating worlds together.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 17, 2011, 04:28:33 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.channelate.com%2Fcomics%2F2008-03-01-sexy-alien.jpg&hash=6c9726ee19fbf0f274527f305d70450cb3272489)
beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ;D
To respond to the original post (since I am new here):
I would call myself a female (sex) androgyne (gender). I'm also Asexual (well, demisexual, for the sake of argument) and highly introverted. Are all of these things related? maybe probably.
Funnily enough, I've never really been "femme" at all - even when I was a kid. Oh sure I liked "girly" toys and sparkly things - but it was more because they were fun and pretty, not because I associated them with being "girly". Mostly I played with stuffed animals and plastic dinosaurs and building toys rather than any of the stuff that people think of as "gendered" toys such as dolls or whatnot. I hated wearing dresses, although I liked HAVING cool/pretty clothes. I just didn't care that much about how I looked. When I was a teenager I wished I could be a boy just because I was miserably lonely and none of the girls I knew were interested in anything that I found remotely engaging. It wasn't that I felt I was a boy, but rather I found their antics marginally more relatable. When I grew up I guess I sort of stopped caring and started just living the way I felt. I've been married happily for 7+ years, and I credit my spouse with helping me become more comfortable with being myself instead of trying to fit any kind of mold or role.
I dunno, I suppose to some people's perspective I could still be called a woman - I don't mind if people think of me that way because it's just easier for most people and I am not going to press the issue. I live and present as androgynous (my body looks female) and while I suspect that people must find me a bit odd, no one has ever treated me poorly on account of it.
I sometimes wonder if I am not sort of "invisible" from several different angles: I'm not ambiguous enough to stand out as "trans" or anything like that, but on the other hand I don't know but that maybe some people don't actually read me as a guy in some cases (I've actually caught this while traveling, where somebody in a hotel or restaurant addressed me and my husband as if we were both men, before doing a double take and correcting themselves. XD). On the OTHER other hand, I feel like I'm also invisible as a woman because I don't fit ANY of the criteria for getting "noticed" (clothes, looks, body, etc).
Anyway, this ramble has gone on long enough. Suffice to say, I consider my gender to be androgyne but I don't really put a lot of effort into it because I've been living as one by default without knowing it most of my life. : )
Welcome t'board.
My toys were hand puppets. They had such riveting lives and histories this hand puppets.
Welcome to the boards and thank you for your input! :) hope you enjoy your stay here at Susan's.
To be completely honest I dont know what I am! ???
Growing up i wanted to be a boy and even passed as one many times, by no fault of my own. ;D
Then I came out as a lesbian but didnt like the term so used gay.
About 5 years ago i found the butch femme scene and thought I was butch.
Past year i have realised Im not like other butches. I think and feel like a man, not a woman. I hate having breasts, i hate having periods. If i could i would be rid of both! But i wouldnt ever want to take T or have the op down below, because im happy enough in that way. (Strap on and packer do me fine) And i like me! So does my wife.
So i came to the conclusion of being Genderqueer.
Having read about andros - i really dont think i fit there either. I cant say i am happy about my female body at all.
Confused!!
Quote from: ninjaboi on July 12, 2011, 02:17:57 PM
Having read about andros - i really dont think i fit there either. I cant say i am happy about my female body at all.
Confused!!
Some andros aren't happy with their bodies as well.
Quote from: Flotsam on July 12, 2011, 05:01:10 PM
there aren't any really strict rules around here when it comes to labels, in fact they just seem to get the way for most. You don't have to be in a box around here either. How about just Gender Flexible?
You're in the right place here...
We just rebuilt the rope swing to hold 6 at a time, and it sounds like there's going to be a party here in the forest. Bring wifey, too!
I was telling her tonight about this place and how friendly you all are. I think she may join us soon. So glad its not to strict here with labels, its hard when your unsure where you fit.
i still haven't found my own label, so i'm just staying here in the androgyne forum because it has more freedom to just be. thinking that i had to choose either male of female stressed me out so much for so long, it was such a relief to find this place
I haven't quite found my label yet either, but I'm leaning towards identifying as an androgyne too. I agree, it's a liberating thought when you don't feel like you really belong to either gender. I don't know yet if I'm "two spirited" or neither gender or just something in the gray area in between.. but then again I've just started my searching as well for something that makes sense for me. This site is certainly helpful, though!
Hey, people I think I'm going to post my story here, too. I already posted on the IS forum, but here it may also be right.
I'm sort of ,,inter-gender" if anyone has ever come across the term. My body is 100% female (my Doc says), but my mind feels more like intersexed (or androgyne) - somehow that sounds better to me, because I wish my body could be that way.
I know, IS folks have it hard and all – but still.
I greatly long for a penis down there without anything other changed or removed. I feel I should be both – but no doc can do it that way and no one would anyway, sigh.
I'm 23 and realised being sort of transgender last year, since then I'm dressing as a boy (with average passing rate of 50%).
My behaviour has always been there in between all of it – which results in me being often an outsider who don't fits any particular role. I guess most people are just seeing me as an oddball.
Luckily my parents are cool with me (mostly at least).
My sexuality is quite queer for I feel homosexual with women and men and everything in between. I'm attracted to people ranging from butch-lesbians to gay men - but not to any heterosexual cis-people (aka ,,normal" people), dunno why but that just totally turns me off, imagining myself in a heterosex relationship.
Lately I've come to rest with my feelings and thinking I'm just another variation of nature.
But I don't know what to do with it and my wishing for a penis. So my travel of ever changing feelings continues.
Any ideas would be highly appreciated :)
Greets, Alex
P.S.: I'm German, so please forgive me any mistakes with my English.
Hey Alex!
Thanks for joint us here and posting your story! I would have never seen it in the IS section. :) inter-gender makes perfect sense to me.
When I first discovered transgender people online it was via porn. I saw these women who were totally women...except they had a penis! I became totally obsessed with this body shape. I now understand that those were trans-women who likely wanted nothing to do with their penis and I feel badly for looking at them but I wasn't even lusting them...simply wanting to be them.
I have no issue with my breasts...even like them most days. Though gosh I wish they were smaller!
I hope you can find what works for you! :)
Oh I agree on the wishing for smaller breasts, Sevan! In general I don't mind my female body either but dang those things are inconvenient and I feel so disproportionate.
I came to learn and am still learning about what being androgyne means through coming across the word "cisgendered" in a discussion. I looked it up and was like... what o.o ...this is not me. I never thought of myself as being transgendered as I always thought that meant feeling like the opposite gender of what you are physically and I don't really feel like a man either. So in my search to find a better term I stumbled upon androgyne and this site, glad I did.
And your English is wonderful, Alex! I wish I had more to contribute but I'm really new at all of this myself. But good luck!
hi alex! and welcome!
you just went ahead and wrote my story before i got to do it myself.. i often miss the penis which should have been there, though i might be a bit different from you in that i some times wish my breast away, would make it so much easier to throw off my shirt when it's hot and i otherwise feel on the more male side of my life. but the girl in me would be saddened by the loss, they look really nice in the right clothes
and welcome to you too, sunny-side!
Thanks for all your responses :)
Hey and you complemented mine ;D
Yes, there are days when I wish for my already small A breasts to vanish as well - hot summer days and all the boys running around half naked and me being envious, hehe. I don't want to wear a bikini or else. Moreover, when I'm attracted to (gay) men, I see myself as rather male too and want my body to be like theirs.
But I'm still used to my breasts and think I would miss something - I'm not girly but though they are a part of my body and I don't want to loose any organs of mine. And if I'm attracted to a butch-lesbian I don't mind being female bodied anyway.
So my gender expression ranges somewhere between "wanting to be more masculine" and "feeling okay" but I want to keep my healthy body intact. I wish there was any comfortable binder for my breasts, as covering them with an undershirt gets annoying summer days (but I won't wear anything uncomfortable).
Nevertheless I feel inter-gender: female body + masculine look + mixed behaviour. And wishing my body to be both as well :)
Love to you,
Alex
Flotsam and Taka: Thank you both for the warm welcome! <3 I do certainly hope that I am in the right place, and if it turns out otherwise, at least I'm in good company right now.
One more detail I forgot to mention: my feelings towards my body are ever changing.
One day, I feel pretty okay living the paradox of feeling male within a female body.
On other days I wish for my body to be comletely masculine –
and on days like the last few days I long for a body of mixed sex. That's why I called it inter-gender. There I can totally relate to you, Sevan.
No idea, if those alternations will ever stop, meanwhile I got more or less used to them.
Does anybody experience similar changes?
Oh, and hi sunny-side :)
Greetings,
Alex
that sounds just like me, alex. i simply can't decide on anything because nothing feels wrong or right more than a few days at a time, and i often wonder what hormone treatment would do to this ever changing state of mind
Not to throw around labels and definitions...(it's really not my style) but what your describing Alex is commonly referred to as "gender fluid" and they often describe themselfs as ever shifting within the gender spectrum.
Thanks people :)
I already tried gender-fluid and genderqueer for me (sorry, mentioned it in the IS section, but forgot here) - it just didn't work for me.
I wish I could identify as fluid and be cool with my wavering feelings, but I'm afraid I'm rather some sort of quite indecisive ftm -
Which sucks, because I want to go full-time soon, but I'm such a crybaby and it scares the >-bleeped-< out of me.
Yeah, that's exactly why I'm shying away from treatment - what'd happen if I'd regret it?
I want to be more masculine anyway.
Any idea what I can do about it?
Meh, feeling quite dysphoric today, but my family awaits guests at afternoon, so I will have to show a happy face.
See you later,
Alex
Hi everyone,
Sorry for that moody last post - I've had a baad night of insecurely dreams :embarrassed: .
Found my cool and rest again now :D.
However, I just had a sort of enlightenment right now:
I'm going to order binder, packer and male swimsuit and opt for the masculine role full-time - but without any medical treatment.
I'm positive the combination of female body and male role will fulfill both of my sides, the butch-lesbian as well as the gay boy inside me.
Still I'm a bit scared to ask my family using male pronouns and the male form of my name (Alexander). They already know I'm dressing as a boy, but I don't how they will react to that request. But I guess that can wait till I get the binder and all.
Happy Greetings from over the rainbow :)
Alex(ander)
Btw.: Hey Taka, may I ask you where your avatar is from? I really like it.
Are you from Japan by chance? I'm right into manga and trying to learn Japanese ;D
my avatar is bolt crank from the manga eat-man. i highly recommend it. there's made two short animes out of it, eat-man and eat-man '98, but they're hard to find and don't cover any of the main story. i'm not japanese, but i speak the language fairly well, passed jlpt level 2, though still not ready to go for n1
Thank you :)
Heh, I feel a bit silly now, for making such a sulky post earlier. If anyone finds it annoying feel free to move it somewhere else.
I did a little thinking about the labels by now, and came to find: on one hand those labels should be unnecessary to me, but on the other hand it's just humanly, wanting to belong somewhere.
So what do you think about the term Two-Spirit for me?
I know it's originally a Native American term, but trans*community seems to have adopted it, and when I read about it, it sounds surprisingly suiting to me.
Do you think, I could call myself a FtM-Two-Spirit?
(Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure hardly any German person, would understand the word - but though I'd like to use it for myself and on the internet. :D)
Oh, and one more thought just crossed my mind: Would FtM-Two-Spirit count among androgyne or another umbrella term?
Have a nice sunday,
Yours, Alex
Quote from: Sevan on July 16, 2011, 10:21:51 AM
Not to throw around labels and definitions...(it's really not my style).
Aren't you then labelling yourself as someone who doesn't throw around labels?
Labels are inevitable and useful and I use them at every opportunity to understand, make sense and interact with my world.
Labeling myself certainly has helped me understand a lot of things. Having too few labels is when things start to get confusing but then you learn and know more.
regarding labels, it's my purpose to be able to use as many labels as it is possible within a human life time.
So that way, when people wish to label me they'll have to use a long string of labels.
Quote from: Pica Pica on July 17, 2011, 03:29:39 PM
Aren't you then labelling yourself as someone who doesn't throw around labels?
Labels are inevitable and useful and I use them at every opportunity to understand, make sense and interact with my world.
Why...too right! Lmao. It just seems that when we try to being to fine a point on it...it becomes all the more ellusive.
When I was searching for the descriptive word that fit me just perfectly...early on...back in them days ;) I came across the word androgyne and I thought...ureka!! Then I found a description for this word (not saying this description is %100 correct, just saying it's what I found back then...) and that was "%50 male, %50 female. Someone who fits between male and female on the binary."
I set about trying to squeeze into that mold in way of dress, action and transition. Found it frustrating and I'll fitting.
I now use the term more loosely. I don't see a need for anperfect fitting label (though FtA suits me rather perfectly if I must put a fine point on it) and interchange my labels as I see fit. Somedays...I'm two spirit, some days I'm androgyn, somedays I'm third gender...all fits, all works, just anmatter of the day.
Though really...I'm me. And understanding "me" takes more than one sentace worth of descriptors.
That's not to say I'm against them...they're important!! These words of ours...but they're not SO important...in my mind.
All that is to say that...Alex (and anyone else searching...) the specific word you use to describe yourself isn't so important, and we can't pick on for you. If you think FtM-two spirit suits you, why by George you go for it!
*huggles*
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on July 17, 2011, 03:59:38 PM
regarding labels, it's my purpose to be able to use as many labels as it is possible within a human life time.
So that way, when people wish to label me they'll have to use a long string of labels.
If you are lucky, it'll be a biography's worth. (I want a full on Boswellian 194504 words worth).
I understand that the concept two spirit comes from Native American traditions but I do not feel that they have a right to claim sole ownership of the word.
Two spirit says ALOT just in those 2 words. Many people who are not Native American associate themselvs with two spirit concept.
The idea that two souls inhabit a single body can not be limited to a single ethnic group.
Personaly I believe that I have a dual soul situation myself. Just the female soul is the primary this life time.
I do agree that labels definitely have a purpose as far as searching for understanding and knowledge goes. It's what launched me into my own search for understanding, so I can't deny that they have a purpose despite how much I hate to admit that. I've fought against them for so long... though perhaps there needs to be a line drawn in between labeling and stereotyping, although I'm not entirely sure where to draw that.
Just gotta realise they have wobbly and stretchy walls.
i decided that androgyne will have to work as a label for me until i can find something else that fits better. for all i know my gender could be a die that is cast every night to decide what i should feel like the next day, at least that's what i feel like right now. not two spirits, or something fluid or flexible, but a whole with a confusing more than just two sides. and none of the sides look exactly the same, though they all exist at the same time
Hi, thank you everyone for all the nice posts :D *huggling back*
It's okay, as I don't want to offend someone (namely the Native Americans) by accident, I'll use just FtM-Transgender then as umbrella term - maybe sort of dual androgyne inter-gender if I'd try for as many words as possible, too ;D.
I just liked the open-minded dual concept behind two-spririt, but it's not necessary to use exactly this word for me, I'll just keep the idea cherished in my mind. :)
I guess that's exemplary for my understanding of labels - it's the underlying idea of the concept that matters, not the word itself.
Taka, I think, the image of the dice is a nice one - a gender-dice :)
(Hey THAT'd make an awesome label, wouldn't it ;D)
Greetings to you all,
Alex
OOh, shiny - it's a new record of how many smileys I can use in a single post ;D 8) :D :)
Edit: Did there vanish any posting - what happened to the one, saying some American Indians claim Two-Spirits as exclusively their label ?
I haven't quite figured out the labels yet either. Some of the more general terms work (well, "nonbinary" anyway) but few are dead on.
I like "liminal" best, but it isn't used much. (And I'll note that I'm listening to Spotify and the song that's on right now is called "Places In Between." Heh.) But I do have a sense of the binary genders being these anchor points -- like statistical distribution curves maybe -- and I have a rope bridge between them or something like that.
"Androgyne" isn't bad, though of course people usually think of it in terms of appearance and physical traits.
"Gender fluid" I've pretty much accepted, though I haven't really yet figured out how much actual flow is going on. If anything shifts it's less my sense of gender identity and more my comfort level with how I'm expressing it. So I don't think it's a perfect term for me. Going back to that rope bridge, it's maybe swaying a little with the breeze and bouncing a bit as I walk across it... no, that metaphor doesn't really work. :D But anyway, it was this term that helped me take a step off the "what if I'm an MtF who's too chicken to transition" trail that wasn't going anywhere, so it was helpful for that at least.
"Epicene" is kinda cool because you can't spell it without "epic." But it sounds like it describes dinosaurs rather than genders :D It's also not quite accurate, because my internal sense of self says I'm neither an effeminate male nor a masculine female, which that term would mean.
"Genderqueer" I don't like, partly because I still think of "queer" as an insult for gay people, because I think it does confuse people not in the know (and isn't there already enough trouble with people confusing sex, gender ID, and sexuality?) and partly because some people associate it with making a sociopolitical statement.
Thanks! Epicene...that's a new one for me. I like it! :)
Yeah, it's a cool word! "Epicenity" is the noun. I think I ran across it on wikipedia.
After looking over Androgyne Online and Gender Wiki, I'm really warming to the term "androgyne." I originally bypassed it because I thought it referred mainly to looks, or maybe a mild type of intersex condition. But in terms of gender it just describes me better than fluid does.
It's always useful to remember that the word is androgyne not androgynous.
So just to make sure...
Androgyne: noun, but can be adjectived. Refers to the gender identity or to a person who has that identity.
Androgynous: adjective. Refers to visual appearance, fashion etc.
Androgyny: noun, refers to... the concept of being between masculine and feminine? Applicable to either androgyne or androgynous?
Quote from: foosnark on July 21, 2011, 04:50:21 PM
So just to make sure...
Androgyne: noun, but can be adjectived. Refers to the gender identity or to a person who has that identity.
Androgynous: adjective. Refers to visual appearance, fashion etc.
Androgyny: noun, refers to... the concept of being between masculine and feminine? Applicable to either androgyne or androgynous?
pretty much.
Quote from: foosnark on July 21, 2011, 04:50:21 PM
So just to make sure...
Androgyne: noun, but can be adjectived. Refers to the gender identity or to a person who has that identity.
Androgynous: adjective. Refers to visual appearance, fashion etc.
Androgyny: noun, refers to... the concept of being between masculine and feminine? Applicable to either androgyne or androgynous?
*nods* well put.
I really like that summary.
I look androgynous, but I am a full time (mt) female. I was once concerned about being perceived as androgynous, but found it to be quite acceptable. I am not an androgyne, though I loooove this neck of the woods.
2 cents thrown. :)
Have some of our friends gone missing?
Quote from: i on July 23, 2011, 10:32:46 AM
I blame me.
You always do.
That is so over done.
;)
so that means some people i don't know have gone missing, and it's not yet proven to be ativan's fault?
Just in general, things of a negative nature usually involve me. More than needs to be at times.
My Karma came to me (I wasn't even looking for it) and told me most things that go wrong in the universe have something to do with me.
It never really specified how much, but in being aware of my Karma now to a higher degree, it seems it's my fault and I am to blame.
There isn't a need to look for evidence one way or another, it's just something I've gotten used to, and many others have, too.
i can accept karma. but it's weird to think that a single person can mess up the karma of billions other people that much. if that's true, wouldn't the whole universe become peaceful if you could just turn your karma into a positive influence?
Quote from: i on July 23, 2011, 10:32:46 AM
I blame me.
I don't believe you ;)
Blame is almost always a multiple player sport.
Quote from: Pica Pica on July 21, 2011, 03:40:57 PM
It's always useful to remember that the word is androgyne not androgynous.
I'm not big on the noun labels; I'd rather go with adjectives. Just like I rarely call myself a lesbian; I'm gay.
I feel like the noun boxes me into a slot, whereas the adjective describes a part of me, of which there are many.
Quote from: LightlyLuke on July 26, 2011, 05:47:22 AM
I feel like the noun boxes me into a slot, whereas the adjective describes a part of me, of which there are many.
Yes, yes, YES! Very well put.
I honestly feel a bit contradictive about myself, considering the balance of both masculine and feminine at the same time... I will say, my masculinity is dominant, though it can shift everywhere in between. Honestly, its very confusing. I had been suppressing my masculinity very much these past couple of years, which has been very unpleasant. I have stopped doing this this past year. I can't choose one or the other, because it would be as if I were to choose some limbs and leave the rest behind. Impossible, because it is all, in the end, the sum of me.
I feel as if I should have been born intersexed.
Quote from: Taka on July 23, 2011, 11:36:33 AM
i can accept karma. but it's weird to think that a single person can mess up the karma of billions other people that much. if that's true, wouldn't the whole universe become peaceful if you could just turn your karma into a positive influence?
Surely not? A butterfly can flap it's wings and cause a hurricane the other side of the world (allegedly). Maybe the butterfly had bad Karma and caused a human disaster.
Btw, do butterflies have Karma, and if they don't, why not?
> there goes another black pebble into my jar...
I don't believe in karma, but I do believe in cause and effect.
The butterfly story comes from the science of chaos as an example of a chain of events that could be linked.
the butterfly left free some delicious kharma when it moved its wing.
unfortunately, the story does not account for time, so that the dimension of things between the original wing flapping and the actual human disaster might be a bit longer than one would immediately think.
Then it stands to reason, that the butterfly is not the only factor in the catastrophe, reducing the fault of the butterly to it's very size in space time.
Also, the real culprits are clouds. They hate everything.
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on September 19, 2011, 08:01:13 PM
Then it stands to reason, that the butterfly is not the only factor in the catastrophe, reducing the fault of the butterly to it's very size in space time.
Hence the term 'chaos'.
chaos is a word which means "we don't know the order yet"
I am absolutely amazed (and such) at chaos. Talk about drifting! :D
I've found myself as being in the "both and neither" camp. I've actually come compare my gender identity the a photon in that as a photon shows properties of both a particle and a wave, while its something different altogether.
I see that in my core being (and reflected in my personality), have this combination but not really either. Most of the time I'm quit comfortable being this way, and even enjoy it. It's allowed me to mentally "rise above" the gendered world mentally, not in an "I'm better" way, but in a looking from a second story balcony type way.
That said at times I feel quite conflicted, and I've resorted to giving those conflicts separate voices in my internal conversations. Yes I do talk back to myself and respond. ;D
"Guy side" wants to maintain the status quo and "man up", while girl side demands more expression. It's become a slow and ongoing process of constant negotiation.
Quote from: @ivan on September 20, 2011, 11:13:20 AM
I am absolutely amazed (and such) at chaos. Talk about drifting! :D
It's not drifting, that's merely the perception, in reality nothing moves.
Btw, forget the butterfly and make it a fruit bat. They're bigger and cuter.
Quote from: mimpi on September 22, 2011, 02:36:51 PM
It's not drifting, that's merely the perception, in reality nothing moves.
Btw, forget the butterfly and make it a fruit bat. They're bigger and cuter.
Like how the topics here can drift into another topic...
I have been bitten by a bat that was hiding in a crevice. I was rock climbing.
I felt sorry for scaring him. Got bit by snakes a couple times, too.
(drifting)
Ativan
Talking of particles, hear this 'un, the possibility that CERN have discovered neutrinos moving faster than light - they have recorded it above the standard number of times that qualify discovery, but want to be cautious.
They're just saying that so nobody notices the blackhole they made is getting bigger...
Isn't the speed of light an absolute?
The topic can't drift faster than that.
Isn't Absolute a Vodka?
We're Androgyn, we can do whatever we want.
( if the staff doesn't catch us ) ;D
Ativan
while lightspeed may be a constant, it has been consistently proved that gossip travels faster than light.
@sevan: With glasses you look like a guy i know. Unfortunately I don't like that guy. But I do like you.
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on September 22, 2011, 06:47:07 PM
@sevan: With glasses you look like a guy i know. Unfortunately I don't like that guy. But I do like you.
Unfortunate for that guy...fortunate for me :D
Quote from: Sevan on September 22, 2011, 08:23:33 PM
Unfortunate for that guy...fortunate for me :D
Oh voluble fortuna, some times she takes us up and sometimes she takes us down, like the winds bowing to whichever direction are the fates of humankind.
Alright,...Who are you and what did you do with Zaida???
Quote from: @ivan on September 22, 2011, 10:45:02 PM
Alright,...Who are you and what did you do with Zaida???
lol, was that too uncharacteristic ?
I was just remembering the lyrics of o fortuna by this orf dude.
This has been passed around this area of the forum and may even be in this thread (if it already is...I apologize) but in case it isn't...I wanted to post my version of this little "story" in this thread. Here goes. :)
Imagine if you will, two cities. They're nice places, friendly...but very different places. One city is called Female, and the other...Male. Everyone who lives in these cities has their home. No two homes look the same...everyone has their own style. Some who are born in the citiy Male, don't belong their...and they travel through the forest and into the city Female...and set up residence there. What is this forest called though? Androgyn forest. Some folks are born in the city female, but don't belong there...and they travel through androgyn forest to get to the city Male, and set up their home there. However...some folks...they live and thrive in the Androgyn forest. Some have tree houses, some have caves, some are close to either city, but not within that city. Everyone is different...and goes about things differently, but all who are Androgyn live in the androgyn forest.
Quote from: Sevan on September 29, 2011, 10:58:40 PM
This has been passed around this area of the forum and may even be in this thread (if it already is...I apologize) but in case it isn't...I wanted to post my version of this little "story" in this thread. Here goes. :)
Imagine if you will, two cities. They're nice places, friendly...but very different places. One city is called Female, and the other...Male. Everyone who lives in these cities has their home. No two homes look the same...everyone has their own style. Some who are born in the citiy Male, don't belong their...and they travel through the forest and into the city Female...and set up residence there. What is this forest called though? Androgyn forest. Some folks are born in the city female, but don't belong there...and they travel through androgyn forest to get to the city Male, and set up their home there. However...some folks...they live and thrive in the Androgyn forest. Some have tree houses, some have caves, some are close to either city, but not within that city. Everyone is different...and goes about things differently, but all who are Androgyn live in the androgyn forest.
And there are some living in one of the two cities for whom the forest is a nice place to visit. Sorry, couldn't resist. :laugh: but the air is nice here and I do love to drop by. :)
Im a male born androgyne.I found by accident when i took the cogiati test online.I`ve been crossdressing for a while,and i wanted to know more about what i was doing and why.I`ve had feminine traits and feelings from about when i was fourteen i think,when i wanted to grow my hair long and have both ears pierced,but that would have totally freaked my family out and i can just imagine what would`ve happened.These feelings have stayed with me though,and i guess dressing up began as a release when my femininity wanted out.I`ve never wanted or felt i needed srs though.Imight have a little work done to my face so i look better dressed but thats all.I`d never heard of an androgyne before i took the cogiati test(which i know is`nt exactly scientific)but i identified with the definition of an androgyne at once,it really is me.i`m happy having my femininity and masculinity together in me,i feel special,different.After years of thinking that something was wrong with me,knowing what and who i am is so good,i`m happier than i`ve ever been,its great.
Quote from: martinb on October 05, 2011, 06:15:44 PM
i`m happy having my femininity and masculinity together in me,i feel special,different.
You are Special and Different.
Ativan
Cogiati is how I found the term androgyn and really applied it to myself. Welcome. :) glad you found us as well.
Hi Ativan,Sevan, Thank you for your kind words and making me feel i belong herex
Martinb,
Welcome to Susan's and the androgyne forum!
Z
QuoteSomething I've been thinking about and would like to put out there, if I may, is that perhaps part of the difference between binary and non-binary identified people seems to be a difference in emphasis on the way they see themselves.
For binary folks, the individual is an expression of the gender identity, but for non-binary people the gender identity is an expression of the individual.
I have occasionally heard, "Is that a male or a female?" I have seen looks of disapproval especially from older women. However it appears to me that negative attitudes most often come from street people who routinely make it a habit of reading other people, whereas middle and higher income types are far more wrapped up in the busyness of their own lives to care a whit about how you or I fit into the gender spectrum. They in turn offer less criticism and most often see us as simply androgynous nondescript human beings. So perhaps we might say that for non-binary people the gender identity label is generally a moot point just because of gender ambiguity as seen from the perspective of others.
Quote from: Pica Pica on September 22, 2011, 05:08:45 PM
Talking of particles, hear this 'un, the possibility that CERN have discovered neutrinos moving faster than light - they have recorded it above the standard number of times that qualify discovery, but want to be cautious.
CERN have discovered neutrinos moving faster than lightI can't see that.
Being bigender...it's like a yin yang (for me.)
There's Evan who has that little spot of Sara, there's Sara who has that little spot of Evan and there's the whole; which is Sevan. An attempt at incorporating them both into the whole...most the time that works, that's a happy space, it's fine and shared...and Sara and Evan bicker and disagree, they love each other and agree...it's all in my head...mostly. None of that spills out and is expressed for fear of appearing crazy. For fear of appearing like someone with multiple personalities, for stigma...there's many reasons to just keep this to myself. Cyndi knows of the identities. She knows there's still division of self...that rift never was healed. But it's not bad or painful for me most the time. It's just the way my mind works. It's split in two. That's ok. We work together...most the time. It's when we don't work together that dysphoria kicks in and is nasty.
Quote from: Sevan on February 18, 2012, 11:02:36 PM
There's Evan who has that little spot of Sara, there's Sara who has that little spot of Evan and there's the whole; which is Sevan.
I go through much of the same. The dysphoria
is nasty. The resulting depression for me is really bad.
You'll always be Sevan to me. One of the really cool people I have crossed paths with many times in the forest.
Always a good time. :icon_hug:
Ativan
Quote from: Sevan on June 05, 2011, 09:04:44 PM
So in your own words, perhaps even describing yourself...Just what is/who is an androgyn?
I'm understanding it to be someone whose gender identity is not either largely a traditional male or largely a traditional female.
This definition is kind of a cop-out since it says what an androgyne *isn't* rather that what it is.
I actually like this because, it becomes inclusive. It includes people like me, a male with a generous helping of female traits, characteristics and preferences bundled in as well as people who feel themselves to be part of an as yet unnamed third gender and people who don't see themselves as having any gender at all.
I'll have to say that the discover of the term was such a wonderful, magnificent moment for me. I don't think I understood what I was (other than that I was different from just about everyone I knew) until I came across Androgyne. Actually I stumbled across "gender-variant" first, which appears to have been superseded.
There will come a day when I'm comfortable telling people I am an androgyne and it will tell them so much about myself in one three-syllable word.
It's amazing how much a word can matter.
OR HOW ABOUT THIS: Someone who no longer cares what gender they are. They are who they are and act according to how they feel inside. I am a simple minded person and I guess my definition shows that!
that's an interesting definition. i have no idea what gender i am any longer, all i know is that i have to sew myself traditional costumes for both genders or i'll feel somewhat incomplete
though i do worry a little about breaking tradition to this degree. mom would want to kill me for it, probably. but the others would hopefully accept it the same way they accepted my ever changing hair colors
National Coming Out Day was last week, and I spent some time writing up a brief FB post. This required me to be succint and maybe oversimplify a bit.
I wound up writing that "Two-Spirit" was closest to my experience, minus the cultural appropriation. And that generally, I have no trouble going through life in a male body, getting sirred, and so on -- that mostly it's an inner thing for me.
This is what I've come back to -- the same kind of insight I had about this when I was 17 or so. Informed a lot more by forums like this, books on trans issues and stories of nonbinary people, and a lot of thought and experimentation. Trying on labels more so than clothes or cosmetics.
I think I may even settle into this. :)
I work at an LGBT youth center and I'm in charge of presentations and education (among many other jobs...) and one thing we do is ask people their preferred pronouns. It's part of our "check in" every day. Some take this very silly....and it bothers me. So I have created an idea that I really hope will help explain some of the experience of trans* people.
Imagine a world where we didn't use he/she/ze/etc. Instead, we use your sexual orientation. Everyone goes by gay, les, bi, pan, het. When you're young everyone of course assumes you're het. If you're LGB, then it's time to come out. As you do...people might try to talk you out of it, "forget" to call you correctly by your chosen label.."oops! That's right...you're gay. Sorry...I forgot."
"Pan? Gah...that's so hard! I've never heard that before until now. Are you sure? Pan? It just sounds so weird! Doesn't roll of my tounge very well..."
Because it's language, it's based largely on stereotype and appearance. So often times, new people to your life will get it wrong. You're het but they assume you les. You're bi but they assume you gay or het. Constantly correcting people can be frustrating. Why can't they just get it right?!
There's the rare person who will ask you first what you're pronouns/identity is...and they're like a cup of cool water!
Going through life like this, being questioned, not "passing" as your identity sometimes. How does it feel?
Androgyne has two semi- competeing definitions in my head:
One is as an asthetic borrowing cues (makeup, hair, cut & style of clothes, etc) from both genders as well as emphasising cues that both are shared and non-gendered.
The other is as an identity. And for me it boils down to anyone who has a gender identity that combines aspects of both stereotypical genders, and also aspects that are common.
I'm bit of a sciencey type, and I like classification because it helps me sort of understand things. I see gender as a spectrum that goes from a state of "maleness" on one end and "Femaleness" on the other. Using that logic I see a few broad gender "classifications": Male (mostly to one side of the spectrum), Female (Mostly to the other side) and Genderqueer (In the middle OR not "male" or "female"). I see Androgynes (and Bi-gender and 2-spirit) having more leeway and being more varied in their expression and in their identity. No two are exactly alike.
I self-identified about 2 years ago. It was shortly after a heated discussion ( I wouldn't call it a fight) that centered around my few attempts at crossdressing. I see it now as me challenging my identity in a way that my partner accepted and mostly encouraged. Again it was my partner who pointed out: "maybe you're doing this to yourself because you're not male, maybe you're halfway?" The thought actually brought some relief, and much soul searching and research later I decided that androgyne would be a good enough label for me for now. I want to integrate 'both parts' of me so that I'm not surpressing one or the other and then see where I end up once I get there.
As I've explored this i have been surprised at just how early of a memory I have at being awkward when dealing with female-only gender things. Like dealing with my mother's clothes in the laundry room, and feeling left-out because I didn't feel like I could play with the girls. I've never fit in perfectly with the boys either and was a bit of a loaner through the mid grades and high-school. I found that I made friends easier, and stronger, with girls than with boys. I'd always had a tough time fitting in as a child and I think I deliberately suppressed this part of me so that I wouldnt give the bullies ammunition, it took more than 10 years for that momentum to fade. I've never really dealt with depression or other stong emotions over my gender until after I had "given myself permission" to do the girly stuff I never had the chance to do.
I'd always been an ally, and to be honest I think I was a bit jealous of these people that seemed to know who they were and decided that they would be it no matter what.
<3
Edited to remove half-thoughts and some spelling... (GAH!)
Good post omdorastrix, seems like you've found the right place, welcome to a world we all commonly share in this forum!
Quote from: omdorastrix on February 05, 2013, 09:10:00 AM
I'm bit of a sciencey type, and I like classification because it helps me sort of understand things. I see gender as a spectrum that goes from a state of "maleness" on one end and "Femaleness" on the other. Using that logic I see a few broad gender "classifications": Male (mostly to one side of the spectrum), Female (Mostly to the other side) and Genderqueer (In the middle OR not "male" or "female"). I see Androgynes (and Bi-gender and 2-spirit) having more leeway and being more varied in their expression and in their identity. No two are exactly alike.
I'm very much the 'sciencey type' and classifying things just comes with it I suppose.
I have totally dropped the idea of a spectrum with male and female on each end. Why are they the ends?
It doesn't make sense anymore.
It was someone on here (I know who ;)) that put it as male and female are like a highway and non-binary isn't something in the middle of them, it is it's own highway.
This makes total sense to me, for the reason that we don't follow the same terrain or destinations as the other highways do.
Male is a Gender. Female is a Gender. Androgyn is a Gender.
Any non-binary definition is it's own highway (or road or path if you prefer).
It totally makes sense to think of sexuality this way also. There isn't a middle of a spectrum. There are other's.
But what makes it that way to me, is that we all don't have the same destinations. So a spectrum just doesn't work.
This took a long time for me to really grasp the concept completely. But it was a long time in coming.
We are just not people that are between MTF and FTM, nor are any of us in between male and female.
There is a road that goes by the forest here, but it isn't a highway that goes directly from Male City to Female City.
We are our own gender, not a blend, not a mix. As people, we can all share characteristics. We have always done that.
I don't know, but it makes it easier to view things for what they are that way.
I never liked the impression that people have that we are nothing more than something in between two genders.
It's why they keep having expectations of us that we will suddenly realize that we really are just one or the other.
I call Bullsh*t on that idea. It happens sometimes, but it also goes the other way, too.
We are who
we are, not a mix of something that can't define us.
Ativan
I acknowledge that the spectrum analogy isn't complete. Keeping an analogy simple, or generalizing something almost always leaves something out.
It's a bolt-on to the existing system and creates a place where I feel more comfortable, when perhaps we all simply need a new system to handle it.
Change is hard, we're early adopters, there's bound to be bumps in the road. Everyone will come around. When something this good comes around eveyone will want a piece. People aren't walking around with mobile telegraphs in their pocket...
Androgyne: Half way between the girl I know I'm not and the boy they know I'm not, and yet somehow also harder to get to than either of those places. It's maddening really. There's a reason I spent a few years thinking maybe I was a closeted FTM.
8^/
Quote from: Mayonnaise on April 16, 2013, 10:33:18 PM
Androgyne: Half way between the girl I know I'm not and the boy they know I'm not
I really identify with this. I guess it captures some of the frustration I feel as well. I
also spent a year thinking I must be a closeted FTM transsexual, because that was the only option I knew about (and thought no one would consider "in between" to be a legitimate identity, which is thankfully--but slowly--changing). My feelings that that identity didn't sit quite right with me felt like I was trying to shy away from "actually acknowledging being trans".
But thanks to Susan's, and you guys, and a whole lot of therapy and experimentation, I have hope now. *internet bro-hugs to all*
Quote from: brainiac on April 17, 2013, 10:43:28 AM
I really identify with this. I guess it captures some of the frustration I feel as well. I also spent a year thinking I must be a closeted FTM transsexual, because that was the only option I knew about (and thought no one would consider "in between" to be a legitimate identity, which is thankfully--but slowly--changing). My feelings that that identity didn't sit quite right with me felt like I was trying to shy away from "actually acknowledging being trans".
But thanks to Susan's, and you guys, and a whole lot of therapy and experimentation, I have hope now. *internet bro-hugs to all*
It would seem as if we are on the outer cusp of a shift, gender being only one of the many three dimensional aspects of human life to be affected.
Quote from: brainiac on April 17, 2013, 10:43:28 AMBut thanks to Susan's, and you guys, and a whole lot of therapy and experimentation, I have hope now. *internet bro-hugs to all*
*Joins in the bro-hugging.*
8^)
Understanding Gender Expression Diversity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=650CzrO80t0&feature=youtu.be#)
Nice little video.
Ativan
I'm not androgyne, as the impression I've always gotten (and the word itself doesn't contradict this) is more along the lines of genderqueer or bigender than anything else. It is a gender/set of genders that involve mixing and matching certain quantities of binary-gendered qualities, and that combination matters a great deal on the inside.
I don't see it as The Third Option (the "nonbinary" umbrella is the third option), but rather one of many, and I have definitely never felt that I could relate to it as someone more in the agender/genderless/neutrois camp. I have no internal concept of gender other than what I've strained to learn over the course of my life for the sole purpose of surviving in the world. All heavily gendered clothing and behavior feels like drag, all pronouns fall flat (I have no real preference for one over another), and even secondary sex characteristics are no more than fashionable accessories to me. Granted I can't take them off, but I can minimize their appearance.
For a while, and near the beginning of my gender questionings, I had no idea that there could be identities that existed independently of the binary, and so I thought I might've been bigender. If I didn't feel like either one, and couldn't be something else entirely, then surely I must be some combination of both? Anyways, I'm much happier now, and much more understanding of myself. And though I think "androgyne" is a bit antiquated of a name for nonbinary identities, I'm not gonna make a fuss about it here. :]
Quote from: Fitter Admin on June 07, 2011, 09:36:11 PM
There was one newbie awhile back who got freaked out when I posted the Charlie the unicorn video for them. :laugh:
Why would you....
oh..
"Charrrrlie.... CHARRRLIE!!!"
"WHAT!?"
"Were on a bridge Charlie!"
". . . . ."
I still don't get why you posted it though.
-[Undecided]
Non-binaries were treated as mythical or non-existent, just like a unicorn.
I take it as an inside kind of kidding around. Unicorns in the forest, here.
Also, this area of Susan's was originally called Androgyne Talk,
and there were considerations and suggestions made to change it,
but its now more traditional for here. It's not going to be changed.
It is the area for non-binary type people, which covers so many labels, that to choose one just doesn't cut it.
Even the use of non-binary is not a correct umbrella for some, but they are here and accepted.
That's the most important thing around here.
Not any label, but the acceptance of each individual, regardless.
Transsexuals that are somewhere in their journey of transition are always welcome.
And there are a variety of people that just pop in every so often. Positive attitudes go a long way.
As well as Charlie the Unicorn videos.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 27, 2013, 02:48:18 PM
Non-binaries were treated as mythical or non-existent, just like a unicorn.
I take it as an inside kind of kidding around. Unicorns in the forest, here.
Also, this area of Susan's was originally called Androgyne Talk,
and there were considerations and suggestions made to change it,
but its now more traditional for here. It's not going to be changed.
It is the area for non-binary type people, which covers so many labels, that to choose one just doesn't cut it.
Even the use of non-binary is not a correct umbrella for some, but they are here and accepted.
That's the most important thing around here.
Not any label, but the acceptance of each individual, regardless.
Transsexuals that are somewhere in their journey of transition are always welcome.
And there are a variety of people that just pop in every so often. Positive attitudes go a long way.
As well as Charlie the Unicorn videos.
Ativan
Oh yeah, never said it should be changed.
I think I was more confused when I came here, as there was nothing quite explicitly stating "this forum is for more than just angrogynes". It took an hour or two of reading threads to figure out that it was a lot more broad than the forum name conveyed. Should be sticky, IMO. :V
Wasn't trying to imply anything, sorry if it reads that way.
It was a round about way to explain Charlie the Unicorn video.
Just a little bit of the background history, there.
This thread is the first sticky we ever got here.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 27, 2013, 03:17:50 PM
Wasn't trying to imply anything, sorry if it reads that way.
It was a round about way to explain Charlie the Unicorn video.
Just a little bit of the background history, there.
This thread is the first sticky we ever got here.
Ativan
Somebody enlighten me, what the h-ll is a sticky?
@Ativan: Sorry! And fair enough. :]
@Shantel: Hehe, it's one of these threads that stays at the top of the forum. A "stuck" thread, if you will.
Quote from: Lo on June 27, 2013, 06:43:30 PM
@Shantel: Hehe, it's one of these threads that stays at the top of the forum. A "stuck" thread, if you will.
Oh gotcha! :)
Back when this sticky was first put up and some of the others also, things were a little weird around here.
But things changed for the better and still are.
It comes down to levels of respect for all Trans* people.
I think the community here made some wise choices.
The effects of those choices have had a positive effect not only on non-binary people, but others too.
Although I deleted a lot of my posts because they seemed outdated to me,
it is still worthwhile to look back at some of the others to get an idea of what has been accomplished over the last couple years.
Susan and her staff have done a very good job of integrating genderqueers and other non-binaries into this form.
People had to make some personal choices that were hard to make in some cases.
But the payback and pay forward have been very well received.
http://www.transgenderprofessionals.org/2013/07/01/no-trans-left-behind/ (http://www.transgenderprofessionals.org/2013/07/01/no-trans-left-behind/)
This is an article that I just got done reading.
I think it's worth the time to read through it.
This sticky was put up to pay forward.
The way we look at each other is always going to be changing.
Who we are is always going to be moving forward.
The better we are able to define ourselves, the more acceptance we get from society as a whole.
But just like the 'you look alright' topic is about acceptance, not a contest... the key word is alright.
I think of that thread as being a key way to express ourselves at will.
It is our acceptance thread. Just like this one is our defining thread.
And when we want to just ramble, we have the thread that can't be derailed.
It's for fun and is kind of silly, but the wording, 'can't be derailed', is kind of who we need to be.
Looking back, we have achieved a lot. We still have a lot to do.
Ativan
there's something even more interesting about the forest. there are unicorns in it.
we are the unicorns, those who aren't really supposed to exist, but still do if you just believe. i'm more of a faery kind of thing though, have you seen my tail..?
Quote from: CaseyB on August 08, 2013, 05:02:37 AM
I haven't seen your tail. But as you can see by my avatar, I'm not a unicorn either, but a pegasus! As you can see in this article, http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Pegasus-Unicorn_War (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Pegasus-Unicorn_War), we are at war with the Unicorns
now that you mention it, i might have hidden my tail a little bit too well. most people don't notice it at all. so you're at war with the unicorns? only makes the forest more interesting, and a little dangerous to try and traverse. maybe that's why so many transsexuals chicken out of transition even when they managed to get to the city gates. probably also a reason why many hesitate to settle in the forest.
Forest Wars....
We such little kids here, sometimes. :D
That is something that has been commented on more than once.
There is a childlike quality to most of us.
It's a welcome relief from the stress of the real world.
From Pica's description of it being much like Pooh's Forest to the darkest of forests where the scary things live.
The forest has many kinds of inhabitants. Unicorn's being the most notable I suppose.
It's no wonder the binaries can be so confused with us.
Although I wander the darkest of the trails at times,
I have a nicely well lit area that has my treehouse near a pond, that has a rope swing.
The rope ladder is always down and I never lock the trap door.
If I'm not there, help yourself to whatever you need.
Or come and look for me in the dark corners of the forest.
Always in search of the greater truth that calls to me from there.
Ativan
Honestly Im not sure how to explain it.
When ppl ask me it, i simply state i like the idea of having a deeper voice, the facial hair, and normal flat male chest. yet i like having long hair and wearing make-up. I like to look feminine yet also masculine
I love the Forest Dwellers! :)
Quote from: Jamie D on August 12, 2013, 01:54:14 AM
I love the Forest Dwellers! :)
And we love you! But only on Wednesdays
Quote from: Padma on June 06, 2011, 02:37:39 AM
I can see why people who are not happy with the male/female gender dichotomy might be uneasy with the term "androgyne", given its etymological roots in that dichotomy, but I like it because to me it speaks of ambiguity, and there's nothing wrong with being ambiguous.
So although I experience myself as basically female somatically (though still stuck with male anatomically) and want a more female-appearing body, I consider myself fairly androgynous in my sense of self, and how I want to present to others. I have to admit (behold my hilarious reluctance!) that I'm warming to "genderqueer" as a term - but then I'm also finally warming to "queer" as a term :). To me it's just another way of pointing out to people that "things don't just have to be the menu-driven way we're accustomed to think they are." Alongside the part of me that wants to fit in and be accepted is another brighter self, who wants people not to be sure what I "am" because that frees us all up, potentially.
Why would anyone expect to be instantly understood by strangers anyway? ;D
Andro = male
Gyne = female
And so it's "both/neither" -- depending. Tags are both useful and restrictive.
Very dear friend of mine, the person who handed me the keys to the closet . . . she has night-caps on her bedposts, one obviously female, one obviously male. And so when I ask her who wears what, her reply is, "It depends on what day it is!" LMAO
Some days I feel entirely ambiguous. Some days I feel self-conscious about the ambiguity. Generally, this feeling passes and besides -- no one in my social sphere gives a good damn in the first place.
Simple, superficial inventory, today's wardrobe:
6 earrings, female.
Hair tie, hot pink -- reddish.
Hoodie, huge, women's
Seersucker short sleeve shirt, cotton, male buttons
Tank top
Cargo capris -- women's fly closure.
Underpants -- briefs, cotton, navy, female.
Beach sandals -- unisex, male sized.
"Purse" -- it's a black, nylon laptop bag, for a tablet (smaller).
And I suppose that trading in the 4WD Ranger for a Ford Focus SE hatchback is a sort of vehicular "cross-dressing." LMAO
We eschew the term "cross-dressing" because it suggests being in one state and consciously moving across to another. We're not moving anywhere! This is not a "costume" -- not an ironic parody of anything! "Drag" is generally viewed as an exaggerated female presentation, e.g. looking like "queens" and Vegas show girls.
We are "US" -- authentic, integrated . . . admittedly a bit ironic.
And I'll be damned if the position I'm standing amidst is static, unchanging! It changes minute to minute!
--------------------
Ativan --
The woods are silent, dark, and deep
And I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep
And miles to go before I sleep
---------------------------------------------
Padma --
Quote du jour . . .
"You look entirely confused?
Think how I must have felt for 6 decades.
Now it's YOUR turn!"
LMAO
I always understand the word 'androgyne' to mean a blending of both masculine and feminine, some where in between. Not everyone uses the term that way, and that's fine. For myself, its never seemed adequate.
While i do have masculine characteristics as well as feminine characteristics, and am therefore a blending of the two, I sometimes 'feel' more one than the other, just as sometimes I feel more generous and other times I feel more selfish. I'm not one or the other, but a mix of both, and the amount that I am doesn't change, but how I feel it or express it does. So genderfluid, which I've used for a few years now, also doesn't fit. At the same time, I spend most of my time 'feeling' some where 'in between' (having bits of both) that is really something entirely different, something I've called gender neutral. I've come across the word neutrois, which I almost like. It denotes an agender or gender neutral type of idea with most people desiring a transition to a neutral physical appearance. That people have been able to transition *tN or *tA is inspiring for me.
In this thread, Alex offered the term intergender. This is the only place I have seen this to date, and it fits me best of all the terms I've heard or used. I'm always me, how much I am masculine or feminine doesn't change, but I'm both and neither.
If I could, I'd be FtI (female to intersex), and I am so glad to find people with the desire to be intersex like I have. For my sex to match my gender, it'd be intersex. Calling my gender, then, intergender makes perfect sense! Not exactly a combination of the binary genders, it's something else in between and beyond.