I'm sorry I've made so many posts so close together, it's been the strangest three days of my life.
Could I get some input on the time frame and number of visits for someone about to start genital area electrolysis? There are many factors to be considered, and I'm looking into those. But I didn't think applying the standards for cis women would be a good idea.
I have hair varying from coarse, dark blonde to completely white and thin.
What was your experience? The shortest amount of time taken? Will a high pain tolerance make it possible to do longer sessions and take care of it faster? Is post-SRS electrolysis possible? And finally, what areas need to be completely clear?
Hi, Tommygun
Assuming a hair cycle of six months and a dormancy rate of 50% one would need a theoretical minimum of six months to remove all hair in any given area if it has not been depilated for six months. If it has, the theoretical minimum would be one year.
The number and length of visits depends on the hair density, client's pain tolerance and operator speed. The textbook speed for blend mode electrolysis is six hairs per minute. That amounts to a theoretical maximum of 360 per hour. Flash can be significantly faster. One of the electrologists I've talked with has hit 2000 per hour when the conditions were right.
If the total number of hairs to be removed is e.g. 9000, this amounts to about 25 hours of blend modality and much less if an experienced operator uses picoflash electrolysis.
Hair is hair, so all of this applies to all types and colors of hair in both natal women and men.
I mostly performed self-electrolysis on my own genital area. The total in hours was about 26. It took about a year to clear everything except for what I wanted to retain on the mons pubis. (Some areas are a bit hard to reach when you work on yourself...)
An electrologist has a much harder time to insert a needle in a follicle if the client is squirming—so yes, if the client doesn't mind the pain, the work does go faster. I myself have never found it unbearable in any area. In fact, I've sometimes fallen asleep when being worked on.
The area that needs to be cleared for surgery depends on the type of surgery, so it would be best to ask the doctor you plan to use. If hair is left on skin that ends up deep inside, it cannot be removed later because there simply isn't enough space inside for an electrologist to manipulate the needle accurately enough...
Quote from: Tommygun on October 21, 2017, 01:13:57 AM
I'm sorry I've made so many posts so close together, it's been the strangest three days of my life.
Post away, and don't apologize! I was right there two months ago, spamming new threads and asking random questions. ... Oh wait, I still do that.
Quote from: zirconia on October 21, 2017, 05:04:53 AM
Assuming a hair cycle of six months and a dormancy rate of 50% one would need a theoretical minimum of six months to remove all hair in any given area if it has not been depilated for six months. If it has, the theoretical minimum would be one year.
Would depilated mean any removal of hair including shaving? I was expecting it to be at least a year anyway, so this seems promising. I'll maintain a positive outlook and try to look at it as closer to a year.
Also, there is the cost. My insurance doesn't cover electrolysis at all. I'm actually selling a lot of my electronic devices for leverage. So would pico flash be insanely expensive out of pocket? Indiana is so far behind on cosmetic technology, I wouldn't be surprised if I couldn't find someone who does it. Actually, I can only find two electrologists in the state and they are both poorly rated... If anyone in Indiana knows of anyone, please let me know. It would be a tremendous help.
As far as pain tolerance goes, in a quick test, I can pluck hairs from anywhere down there without feeling much of anything. I'd imagine it will hurt much, much more than simple plucking though. I'm sure I can get used to it in any case. Are 5 hour sessions plausible? Are they a lot more expensive than the 3 hour standard? And is the healing process just for patient comfort, or is there a reason you couldn't go say... every week?
Okay, so I'll get it taken care of entirely and not rush surgery. Things need to be perfect in a matter like this.
I could think of more questions, but I'll just wait until I get some more answers first.
Thank you so much, Zirconia. You've been amazingly helpful! Can't thank you enough.
Quote from: Roll on October 21, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
Post away, and don't apologize! I was right there two months ago, spamming new threads and asking random questions. ... Oh wait, I still do that.
Thank you, Roll! I should worry less. This is what the site's for anyway.
I have my own statistics only for facial hair removal. Because it's over for me. And in the bikini area - not yet.
Initially, there was an average amount of hair typical of the European type of face. The hair was differently colored from colorless to black. My age at the beginning of hair removal was 33 years.
The face epilation was started on 3 of May 2013. At first, four passes were made by alexandrite laser on DEKA Synchro REPLA:Y. The impulse power is 19J/cm2. 3 of May 2013, 7 of June 2013, 22 of July 2013 and 8 of September 2013. Most of colored hairs were removed by laser. All colorless the hairs remained unharmed, as expected. Then it was decided not to continue laser epilation in view of inexpediency.
After that I started electrolysis from 25.09.13. Electrolysis by the "blend" method.
Electrolysis lasted from 25.09.13 to 27.07.16.
A total of 49 sessions.
Of them:
9 - in 2013
19 - in 2014
15 - in 2015
6 - in 2016.
The total time is 1843 minutes (just under 77 hours).
Of them:
701 min. in 2013
743 min. in 2014
330 min. in 2015
69 min. in 2016.
The average duration of the session is 38 minutes:
78 min. in 2013
39 min. in 2014
22 min. in 2015
11 min. in 2016
It should be borne in mind that 2013 was not a complete because electrolysis was beginned 25 September. Also 2016 was incomplete too, and electrolysis lasted until 27 of July. The duration of the procedure also varied from the way I did the electrolysis. In general, electrolysis was done by the "blend" method, but some of sessions were made by the "galvanic" method.
During the epilation, I never shaved or pull out hair.
(Forewarning: This is off hand remembered information that may not be accurate as I have not done hair removal yet.) On the going every week part, my understanding is that the limit is often more logistics/financial and that in theory you could have marathon sessions daily for the hair that is actively growing, but you would hit a wall on that once hairs in the growing phase are taken care--so you'd have to make a return trip in a few weeks/months for the next batch, then the next batch, and so on regardless.
Oh! Alright. So I guess it comes down to money. I hope it won't be more than $200 a session. But I know better than to assume. I'll ask if I can do a hellish marathon once I get things settled. Thanks, Roll!
All the electrologists in my area use the Galvanic, Shortwave and Blend. I'm unsure which is most effective or fastest. But at least they give me options.
So, it's okay for me to shave prior to treatment, but it would be wise not to during? I'm not doomed? Ha ha.
Thank you, Yavanna! This information helps a lot! Do you know if they are likely to go longer than 78 minutes? It would be great to get it done in large amount, a few weeks apart.
Tommygun,
Quote from: Tommygun on October 21, 2017, 10:26:45 AMWould depilated mean any removal of hair including shaving?
Hairs don't fall out immediately when they go into the telogen (dormant) phase. They can still be killed if the electrologist is good and can see them. However, dormant hairs don't grow so those that are shaved or plucked won't become visible again until they go back into the anagen phase. If your cycle is six months, that would be around six months later.
Quote from: Tommygun on October 21, 2017, 01:54:02 PMAll the electrologists in my area use the Galvanic, Shortwave and Blend. I'm unsure which is most effective or fastest. But at least they give me options.
The electrolysis modes are galvanic (slowest, very safe and easy) blend (faster, medium difficulty and safety) and thermal (fast, and requires very precise insertions. Can easily cause damage if the operator is not skillful.) I believe the shortwave you mentioned may refer to thermal, because that's how the heat is generated. It might be best to check, though.
Quote from: Tommygun on October 21, 2017, 10:26:45 AMSo would pico flash be insanely expensive out of pocket?
Picoflash machines cost at least around $7000 the last I looked. The electrologist must of course pay for the machine (from money received from clients.) Even so, the client cost shouldn't really be that different. Assuming $7000, at e.g. $10 extra per hour it would take 700 hours, or around 100 working days assuming eight hours of work and an hour for a lunch break. At $3.33 dollars per hour it would be paid for in a year. Given the speed advantage any extra cost is well worth it for the client IF the electrologist is skillful.
That said, excellent electrologists can also do more than the theoretical 360 hairs per hour using blend. If you're in financial difficulty, have no good electrologists within a reasonable distance and do have a friend with steady hands who is also interested, it might be worthwhile to buy Michael Bono's textbook on the subject, read it, practice on yourselves and then work on each other. A used blend machine doesn't cost much, and if you follow the instructions it isn't that terribly difficult. Just don't work on each other's faces until you're absolutely certain you know what you are doing...
Quote from: Tommygun on October 21, 2017, 10:26:45 AMAs far as pain tolerance goes, in a quick test, I can pluck hairs from anywhere down there without feeling much of anything. I'd imagine it will hurt much, much more than simple plucking though. I'm sure I can get used to it in any case.
I'm not the right person to comment on pain levels. As I mentioned, I've even fallen asleep when being worked on. But then, I was also in very skillful hands.
Quote from: Tommygun on October 21, 2017, 10:26:45 AMAre 5 hour sessions plausible? Are they a lot more expensive than the 3 hour standard? And is the healing process just for patient comfort, or is there a reason you couldn't go say... every week?
Provided that the electrologist is good you can have work done all day long once or twice a week. The cost also depends on time so the session length should have no effect on the total cost. The maximum session length and minimum interval are mostly dependent on stamina (and finances).
By the way, there will always be some marks even if the job is done perfectly, since new capillaries form where the hair roots are killed, but that is a normal phase of the healing process and they will fade. (When I was practicing on myself I intentionally and significantly overtreated an invisible spot to see what would happen, and it was completely unblemished about a year and a half later.)
I hope this helps...
Here is a pretty good run down. My electrologist in Tacoma charges $75 an hour
http://www.tsroadmap.com/physical/hair/zapbody.html
Thanks for the link, DawnOday! For some reason I couldn't find the one covering body electrolysis, just facial.
After some sleep and discussion with a friend who read over the coverage plan for me, I think I can finally process this in a more rational, positive light. Given that electrolysis is medically necessary here, the odds are that the surgeon can send a letter to an electrologist for at least partial coverage. Even if it isn't specifically mentioned in the plan. Otherwise, from the looks of it, it isn't terribly expensive. Even with the more advanced methods.
And, off hand, does anyone know if Dr. Gallagher of Indiana accepts any Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance plans? Not the end of the world if she doesn't, I have to check in with Dr. Meltzer of Arizona too. He has a cool mustache, and that's hard to beat.
Quote from: zirconia on October 21, 2017, 04:50:13 PMHairs don't fall out immediately when they go into the telogen (dormant) phase. They can still be killed if the electrologist is good and can see them. However, dormant hairs don't grow so those that are shaved or plucked won't become visible again until they go back into the anagen phase. If your cycle is six months, that would be around six months later.
Ah, so that makes the year make more sense. I will absolutely refrain from shaving, then. Simple enough. Not really an important place to shave anyway.
Most of what you said answers the rest of my questions. I've always considered using a personal electrolysis kit anyway, and it would save time on a drive if the local electrologists are terrible. And why does it seem like every time I call a hair removal clinic, they're on vacation? Must pay incredibly well.
The first visit might be rough, but usually after I experience something like that once, my pain tolerance increases greatly. So I'll ask to be fried in the fastest, most painful way possible and build that up. Ha ha.
I have absolutely no concern about bumps or red spots, so long as the hair is removed. It's not like it's facial electrolysis. Even after 25, the body has a pretty decent capacity for self-repair, and there are creams and other things to remove those in a hurry if I must. I am a slow healer, but I'm sure it will be fine.
Quote from: zirconia on October 21, 2017, 04:50:13 PMProvided that the electrologist is good you can have work done all day long once or twice a week. The cost also depends on time so the session length should have no effect on the total cost. The maximum session length and minimum interval are mostly dependent on stamina (and finances).
That is really good news. I work nights, so I can usually go in during the day. And if I can nap during treatment, that would be fantastic. I'm also selling anything associated with my childhood, so that will probably cover my first few months of treatment, if not half a year. Letting the past pave the way to my future, so to speak. Things are looking up.
Quote from: zirconia on October 21, 2017, 04:50:13 PM
I hope this helps...
More than I can ever thank you for. This has helped set my mind at ease and let me get some well-needed rest. Thank you.
In general, I did electrolysis on the legs, buttocks, bikini, abdomen, and not just on the face. But I did not finish my epilation on the body. Because of the economy of finance, and because I'm lazy. On any case hair removal on the body takes more than one year. As well as on the face. Skin healing also occurs at different rates. On the face, even after the first sessions, the skin was restored for not more 10 days. On the stomach and on the bikini - about three weeks. On the legs - about a month or a little more. But my buttocks was healed for a very long time. Traces remained even after 4 months. So I didn't continued electrolysis on the buttocks. It is necessary, but it is very traumatic for me.
Sometimes, I do myself electrolysis on my legs, using the "galvanic" method. In other places it is difficult for me to get into the hair follicles.
Well, I have a couple years, so I think I'll be okay. But I'll remain diligent. Fortunately, I only have peach fuzz on my face, barring my upper lip which is slightly darker. I don't think I'll get electrolysis there anytime soon because it's no worse than many natal women.
Is that length a result of hair regrowth? Or because it's hard to schedule and get in to see the electrologist? Two years is the average, with 20 twenty-four hour treatments according to this site. I guess I need to calm down and be patient, I'm a young adult and have plenty of time ahead of me.
So, I'm going to get into some gritty details here, since I don't plan on showing my face.
According to this diagram, the back of the scrotum, the shaft and the taint are the areas where electrolysis is most important. The back and sides of my scrotum have incredibly sparse, white, thin hair. The shaft has no hair on it, but the base has pretty dense, thick hair. The taint has average, soft, blonde hair, but it's a bit dense.
I know this is better discussed with an electrologist, but how well or badly off am I?
I hope I didn't violate any community standard here... Damn my need for immediate answers.
Without an expert seeing it, it's hard to determine how bad it is. The real problem is you need to have enough complete clearings that you know you have taken care of all the growth cycles. It's best to get on this as soon as possible and put as many hours in initially to get that first clearing in. After that it's cleaning up any new growth.
Quote from: Tommygun on October 22, 2017, 07:03:46 PM
So, I'm going to get into some gritty details here, since I don't plan on showing my face.
These sorts of questions are just the reality we face unfortunately. Removing the effects of testosterone (not that cis women don't often have hair there) is gritty work and this is definitely the part I'm not looking forward to the most. ;D The thought of electric needles or lasers... there... *shudder*...
Should I perhaps start electrolysis before I know if it's covered by insurance? Many of these specialists haven't even heard the word transgender, so I don't think they will know anyway. Not to mention the only (definitely) certified one is on vacation for the next 15 days. God, I hate Indiana.
That's unfortunately true, Roll. Or should I call you Ellie? We have to discuss things we just want to forget and be rid of, probably more than the people who are comfortable with them.
Quote from: Tommygun on October 22, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Should I perhaps start electrolysis before I know if it's covered by insurance? Many of these specialists haven't even heard the word transgender, so I don't think they will know anyway. Not to mention the only (definitely) certified one is on vacation for the next 15 days. God, I hate Indiana.
That's unfortunately true, Roll. Or should I call you Ellie? We have to discuss things we just want to forget and be rid of, probably more than the people who are comfortable with them.
Either works for me, it's the internet and I'm used to the Roll moniker from years of characters with variations on it. ;D New female name or not, I still love my gaming personas!
And I'd say it really depends entirely on you and your finances. If you are going to do it regardless though, which I'm assuming you are, there's no reason to wait that I can think of aside from planning as it would cost the same amount regardless. Maybe just start conservatively and don't do anything your pocketbook can't handle at once if it doesn't fall under your coverage.
Quote from: Roll on October 22, 2017, 08:06:50 PM
Either works for me, it's the internet and I'm used to the Roll moniker from years of characters with variations on it. ;D New female name or not, I still love my gaming personas!
And I'd say it really depends entirely on you and your finances. If you are going to do it regardless though, which I'm assuming you are, there's no reason to wait that I can think of aside from planning as it would cost the same amount regardless. Maybe just start conservatively and don't do anything your pocketbook can't handle at once if it doesn't fall under your coverage.
Roll it is, then! It sounds cooler. Ha ha.
Finances are... complicated. I'm living at home while I try to get my mom independent. She finally cut costs enough to not have to cut into my income, with which I am already paying for everything. Car insurance, bills, therapy, blood work. But on the plus side, I don't have to pay insane rent prices yet. So it balances out, I guess. Selling every one of my gaming systems and games should hopefully give me a $500 cushion for the first few treatments.
Heading to work, hopefully I'll have some more posts to read by tomorrow.
I would suggest handle it like insurance isn't going to cover it if your surgery date is near. You can always file for services after the fact and if the insurance company accepts it, they will refund the money you paid out. If they don't cover it, you haven't delayed anything.
Quote from: Tommygun on October 22, 2017, 08:19:18 PM
Selling every one of my gaming systems and games should hopefully give me a $500 cushion for the first few treatments.
I hate thinking about how I will have to do the same (well, I'm keeping current consoles, but selling classics). I've been collecting video games my entire life, and it kills me that I'm going to have to sell pretty much everything to make it through transitioning, but... you know. This is more important. :icon_cry: ... Maybe I'll keep the pink Dreamcast as a reminder that I was always girlie.
Well, first order of business is to find a surgeon covered by my insurance. While that happens, I'll look for an electrologist. Maybe my therapist can recommend some trans-friendly ones? Could I be covered for more than one electrologist? Because I am not going to deal with these every-couple-month vacations. It's ridiculous.
I'm not putting it off, but between not knowing anything(I learned I was probably covered for SRS like Friday morning). And every damn place I need to contact being unreachable during the weekend, I think I need to calm down and be patient. Because I quite literally cannot do anything for another 15 minutes and I'm about to scream. My therapist appointment is in 3 days and I've put enough on her plate just asking her to send a recommendation for surgery(which I may not be covered for). I haven't slept since yesterday, and am running on two energy drinks.
Did the insurance worker make a mistake in saying I'm covered? It's not something they usually deal with. Why is every electrologist in Indiana available via internet on vacation or barely licensed? So much I can't find out right now.
Thank you all so much, though. Sorry if this massive panic attack makes me seem unappreciative, I promise you've helped a ton. I just wanted to fill you in. I am just not in a position to start electrolysis this very second. And I mean second. I'll make my calls, sleep and get back to you. You're all fantastic.
Update: Fantastic news, my chosen surgeon is in the BCBS Alabama network, which probably means she's in the local(Indiana) network too. And if she is, she is definitely covered by my insurance! I'll set up a consultation today and see if she can tell me if electrolysis is covered.
This post is a few days dead, but I just wanted to keep everyone updated as promised.
I found an electrologist with 21 years of experience and gave her a call and email 2 days ago. She's a 1.5 hour drive away, so once I patch up my car I'll be ready for the interstate. I'm guessing it will probably be Monday or Tuesday before I hear back and can schedule for consultation. Unless she's dead, just learned two of my former doctors have died. It's creepin' me out, man.
Is there any paperwork required here? I just saw forms for laser hair removal. Need to be ready for the consultation.
Electrolysis requires no paperwork unless your insurance company is paying for it. Most likely the insurance company would want a diagnosis from your therapist and then the insurance company would be billed for the services.
That helps a lot. Thanks. The insurance folks said I might be able to get my surgeon to send in a request for coverage, but I see no reason why I couldn't start now with what I saved up for this anyway. So long as what's left over for surgery itself can be paid for with payments over time, like my lab work.