I'm not really sure what anyone can say but this has been on my mind a lot lately. I wish I could find the way back to God, but I don't know if that's possible anymore. I used to be really close to him but it all went away. I miss it.
Atheist. That probably is accurate for me right now. It's not that I sought it but I just ended up here.
"Whatever you ask the Father in my name shall be given to you." Doesn't it say exactly that. So why wasn't it given. Why wasn't there any answer at all. For more than 40 years only silence. FORTY YEARS. And it wasn't like I was asking for something material; only asking to make it all go away, one way or the other, so that I could live at peace as the Church said.
But only silence.
I really did search hard too. I searched everywhere, as a Mormon, as a fundamentalist, as a Seventh Day Adventist, as an Anglican, and finally as a Catholic.
Still, only silence.
Except from the Church. No silence there. "GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES."
Maybe I just needed to learn more, dedicate myself to him and then he would listen. I studied the bible. I began studying for an MDiv degree. I became an Anglican Subdeacon and served holy communion on Sundays. I taught bible classes. Surely now he would listen.
But only silence.
Maybe he doesn't exist or maybe he just hates me. I'm not sure it makes a difference either way anymore.
Some say he doesn't care and I wasn't wrong to begin with, but . . .
If it really was that he just doesn't care then surely he wouldn't have told all the Church that I'm an abomination. But maybe that's all they hear too . . . Total Silence.
I do miss him and if I could find a way to believe again I would, but I was defeated by his silence.
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Deborah,
I was raised Catholic and have thought some of those very things. I asked God as a small child to help me. There's something wrong with me. Why would God do this to me? Why does he want me to suffer? I'd ask for help over and over with nothing but silence.
The silence was filled with science. The silence was filled with history of the earth and history of mankind and history of the development of all the divergent species on our beautiful planet.
If we go back millions of years and look at the Prokaryotes that existed then the eukaryotes and drift along for millions of years changing sex to and from male to female at will to propagate the species until we finally see vertebrates who need to be assigned a sex. Male or female. The problem is all life forms came from the prokaryotes and eukaryotes, the same ones that can switch their sex as needed. Once the assignment came that there had to be one or the other there was a problem.. That's what allows our minds to be one thing and our body be another. In all species there are animals stuck in the middle. The "church" through its expansive knowledge (that took place only in the last 2015 years out of 4.5 billion years) have taught us that as "gods creatures" we need to be a certain way.
The truth is.. and scientifically backed up is all vertebrate creatures are assigned a sex , they just may not match the gender, but overwhelmingly the masses will match and those that do can propagate the species. That is why we have all the different nuances of sexuality and gender etc.
As for God in all this... Why would some omnipotent being care about any of these little details? Why would that being like to torture people? the answer is they wouldn't. The interpretation of god has been the battle field for all of man kind for centuries, the way people have twisted the diverse beauty on this earth to fit into little categorizes is trite and frivolous at best. Living in those confines is impossible if you don't fit into the categories that are assigned. The fact is you are a beautiful human being living on a beautiful planet screaming through space captured by the gravitational force of the life giving sun. The problem is the interpretation of god. Not you.
sorry to go off on a giant rant.
xx :)
Deborah, I'm sorry you feel so lost and wistful, and there are a million trite cliche things that Chrisitans often say to people in your situation.
I've struggled with the very same questions and wishes you have. There is no clear answer as far as I am concerned. I've prayed for it to go away, and I've tried negotiation with God.
In the end, I've had to consider this like the thorn in Paul's side, something that keeps me grounded and humble. I hate to think of how much of a smarmy self satisfied git I would be if I didn't have my gender issues.
I lean on Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth"
In Him is the power and security, and I trust that He will lead me safely through life, even though I may not hear Him clearly, I know that He is there - He did not abandon me before, He will not abandon me in the future. Perhaps all too often we are listening for the wrong thing.
Regardless of where you end up, I wish you joy and peace.
Luna
Deborah,
I can't really give that to you as you know but sympathize with the desire. I have traveled my life with similar experiences. Not sure if we are the same in that I am a very late arrival at the trans party. I only realized or admitted to myself last winter/spring. I did study variations and other beliefs but never left the church I grew up in(Presbyterian-Northern USA). That denomination is fairly liberal and conservative if that makes sense?
I was very strongly involved as a youth. I nearly went to seminary(I can preach a mean sermon). Luckily, I realized before going that it might not be a good fit. While I could do the research and interpret as well as argue a point I realized that I just didn't like people enough. That whole "ministering" part of being a minister? I could not really relate to most others(go figure-considering my recent self discoveries). But I always stayed connected from the sides.
I have had decades of self loathing and was positive that something was wrong with me. I too kept praying and looking for answers. I felt there had to be a way to stop these perverse compulsions. I too was not really corrected or told in neon lights that I should stop dressing or wanting to be like a girl. Around this time I was interested in the fictional character of the Vampire Lestat (by Anne Rice). He and Louis fully knew that their acts were against what they understood of God's law. Lestat kept waiting for God to strike him down for all the atrocities he commits. He even makes his acts worse. I wondered at the time if that is what I should be doing but had no heart to.(sorry, that paragraph is so rambling).
Lately, I have been more of the fake it till you make version. I have three teen daughters, my wife and I, have tried to bring up in the church. I am trying to lead by example. However, like you , I have asked many questions and reached out to God but never really heard or felt an answer. Every so often a series of positive or negative events might lead me to believe a question prayed about was being guided(I'm sure it could be argued as coincidence).
The idea of Doubting Thomas often comes to mind to me (blessed be those who do not see and yet believe still). I keep hoping that this is the area where I need to keep focusing.
A while ago, I ran across the thought that we don't and can't understand God. Simple enough idea but put into very clever lyrics that resonated with me by the "Crash Test Dummies" in the song "God Shuffled His Feet".
I do have my doubts. Maybe at this point my belief is just a habit. My dad is a retired science teacher. I understand science and history yet can't seem to shake some sort of belief. Maybe I am more agnostic but much of the Bible and other holy books resonate as well. Perhaps I am too frightened to take a jump away from all this and you are the braver.
I have been working with the thought that people are correct, God does not make mistakes. But people do. Yes the Bible is inspired by and to spread God's message. However, it was written by humans. Humans and their committees that decide what books go in or are left out the Bible are not perfect. What if we are made the way we are supposed to be not as a lesson to see how much we can take and still believe(only supposed to happen once, unless God made another agreement like the one affecting Job). Maybe we are supposed to be a lesson to others about tolerance. It also makes me wonder about the nature of God. If we are made in God's image, there is always the question of male, female(can we add other?).
I can't seem to settle this myself. I hope I don't come across as a know it all or trying to tell you what to do. I am just making most of my life up as I go along. I too hope to reach a stronger belief that I once had.
I hope you can come to peace and find some part of what you are looking for.
With warmth,
Joanna
"GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES."
Things like this happen. There are all kinds of birth defect.
Being transgender is more and more understood as having biological connections, to do with development before birth, through various transmitter substances.
People are called to help in love then.
"Every so often a series of positive or negative events might lead me to believe a question prayed about was being guided(I'm sure it could be argued as coincidence)."
But this is how this universe works.
You think about something... something happens, a door opens... and if you follow, further doors are shown...
A secret on this planet is that every person has a connection to god/goddess/all that is.
If you are still, maybe in a quiet place, or in nature, you can feel it.
There are no middle men necessary. In fact its a huge possibility to manipulate.
People should love each other and live in harmony.
Instead they are told to fear and follow rules made by people who were never elected.
Well more and more people see through it...
There are old stories that might be used as guidelines.
But only as far as they make sense. If thought about, some contain valuable lessons. But others don't.
It can be discerned with feeling imo.
And guiding people should act as mentors. Helping uncover what a person feels, and help finding their own solution.
Not telling them what to do.
Your responses have been very helpful. I realized today that this was really a festering sore on my soul and your responses enabled me to begin getting past that. It helped me remember some things and reignited the old spark to seek something higher whether it exists or not. I just have been looking on the wrong path. What you all helped me remember were certain things that always made me believe there is more to it than just wishful thinking. Things transcendent to all this physical gender stuff. Transcendent even to all the "revealed" religions. Somewhere along the line I lost that focus. Writing about it is cathartic so it will be continued. Hopefully I won't convince you along the way that I'm a total fruitcake. And maybe someone can help me on to the right path.
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Quote from: Deborah on October 09, 2015, 09:26:17 PM
Your responses have been very helpful. I realized today that this was really a festering sore on my soul and your responses enabled me to begin getting past that. It helped me remember some things and reignited the old spark to seek something higher whether it exists or not. I just have been looking on the wrong path. What you all helped me remember were certain things that always made me believe there is more to it than just wishful thinking. Things transcendent to all this physical gender stuff. Transcendent even to all the "revealed" religions. Somewhere along the line I lost that focus. Writing about it is cathartic so it will be continued. Hopefully I won't convince you along the way that I'm a total fruitcake. And maybe someone can help me on to the right path.
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Its completely ok to temporary feel puzzled.
I'd say try to concentrate on within... on emotions of love and peace... and go from there.
You might try daily like a small ceremony... making some tea, coming to rest...
animals can also help for example... they can be a wonderful source of unconditional love.
Then trying to go from there... what feels right...
there might be hints... like looking at a book, reading a chapter that feels like it was made for you...
hearing a conversation feeling like its meant for you...
etc...
have an intention... what you would like... and see and feel what happens...
and try to listen to inner voices you feel are helpful...
*hugs*
I wasn't going to respond on this,if I sound offensive please forgive me.the answer is not in Christianity period,I'm a ordained rabbi and a preacher,I don't do sermons but actually teach the bible,it's up too the person I'm teaching too go and see if I'm wrong.the bible was written by Israelites too Israelites,to understand one has too study and study it in the historical context it is written in.I tell my students too read Deuteronomy and then read it from the Hebrew perspective it is written in,for once you do you then realize it's a family book that Rome took and made a religon out of it.It's like taking Alex Haley's book of roots and making a religion out of it. The part about crossdressing in Leviticus had too do with women dressing as warriors and the men taking the female role and raising the children and taking care of the house,like a lot of Amazonian tribes did,we are not too be like that,but in our society it's becoming that way.so if you want too find the God of the bible,you first have too find him like the Hebrews did,and the bible is full of clues to who he is.if you have any questions feel free too ask.
Quote from: cheryl reeves on October 10, 2015, 01:52:41 PM
I wasn't going to respond on this,if I sound offensive please forgive me.the answer is not in Christianity period,I'm a ordained rabbi and a preacher,I don't do sermons but actually teach the bible,it's up too the person I'm teaching too go and see if I'm wrong.the bible was written by Israelites too Israelites,to understand one has too study and study it in the historical context it is written in.I tell my students too read Deuteronomy and then read it from the Hebrew perspective it is written in,for once you do you then realize it's a family book that Rome took and made a religon out of it.It's like taking Alex Haley's book of roots and making a religion out of it. The part about crossdressing in Leviticus had too do with women dressing as warriors and the men taking the female role and raising the children and taking care of the house,like a lot of Amazonian tribes did,we are not too be like that,but in our society it's becoming that way.so if you want too find the God of the bible,you first have too find him like the Hebrews did,and the bible is full of clues to who he is.if you have any questions feel free too ask.
Well imo everyone has a connection to god/goddess/all that is.
There are some good stories or materials that can help guide.
Its also a highly individual aspect.
Someone compared it to living in a certain part of a city. There are many quarters... or religions... but they are all part of one.
There are many people who want to guide. But there are also many who mislead.
Imo the decisive voice or feeling has to come from within.
*hugs*
Hi Deborah,
I can relate to so much that you have said. I remember my own questions that lasted for more than 30 years. From faith and loss, then to church, to a different church to yet another church and another and another...I felt lost and terribly puzzled. I knew God was there but I also knew that He wasn't. He was a far off watcher whose anger hurt if I got to close. My church experience ended for some time when I was asked not to talk to anyone at church because of what I did for a living and to not be a full member. My terrible sin at the last church? I'm a scientist – PhD's in chemistry/molecular toxicology. They presumed that I could not believe in God, that I had to believe in evolution and that I would poison the congregation. I was not so far gone to realize that they were presumptuous and distorted the bible to fit their own preconceived notions.
In those years of struggle, I also heard all about homosexuals being bad and that transgendered individuals were worse, deserving of a special place in Hell. They were dangerous, sinful people controlled by twisted lust. All the while I was hearing, I was enduring a struggle of my own with what I really am. "God doesn't make mistakes." was they cry. Then I looked around the world and realized that while not a mistake, there are definitely things wrong in this world. I prayed and prayed and waited and listened. I heard nothing that I could understand and in not understanding, presumed there was no response.
I could have transitioned in 2001. I knew what I was, what I felt and what I wanted. Looking back, it was my own shame and not God's doing. I was trying to do what I thought God wanted rather than really listening to what He wanted. I wanted my answer – which was to stay male rather than listen to God's answer, which was to become the woman I really am. In 2012, He forced the issue and I started to transition.
In struggling with transition and medical issues, I started a daily time to speak with and to listen to God. I knew I could talk but talking from the heart? That's hard. I'd been lying to everyone and even myself about what I was for so long, I didn't know what truth was. Then there was listening...listening is a skill and listening to someone who doesn't talk in the normal way is even harder. I read "A Slice of Infinity" each day over lunch and pray about the one or two verses that it addresses. In time, as I prayed from the heart, I learned to listen to my soul and then to hear the faint desire/voice of the God who made me.
As a scientist, I theorize that transgendered individuals suffer from some sort of birth defect or defects. I don't think most doctors order medical tests necessary to determine a cause of "transgenderism" but they instead focus on a treatment. For many, the answer is for us to see a psychologist. For some, it is pills and misdiagnosis of a myriad of mental (or even physical) conditions. For the religious, it is prayer. In reality, effective treatment is for us to be simply what we are, even if being what we are is uncomfortable for some. As a Christian, I believe that any time a person overcomes an obstacle and becomes what God made them to be, God rejoices with them.
I was lucky, about a year after I started transition, I found my cause. About six months ago, my psychologist pointed out that had I not been the way I was, I probably wouldn't have survived my childhood. And while transition is terrible difficult, it teaches an appreciation for life. And when done well, can draw a person closer to God through Christ.
The bible says that there will be a time when all shall be seen for what they are. I, Jennifer, will be there, a daughter in the faith.
In Christ,
Jennifer
I have often thought that it is more important for God to believe in me than for me to believe in God. And since my Faith teaches that God is Unknowable, then most of what I believe about got is probably my own personal fantasy. First God was never in my home growing up. My father was on the outs with Catholicism and my mother's family was Lutheran, but there was too much of an air of self-righteousness for her. So it was kind of my idea to go to church. I was baptised and Episcopalian but never went to church there.
I went to Southern Baptist church summer schools and in preteen years wound up in the First Methodist Church, the Congregational Church when I moved, and when I moved again it was the Baptist Church, and finally to the end of my Christian days I was a member of the Congregational Church. My personal religious views were to the left of a Reformed Jew. I unofficially was a Buddhist, and finally a Baha'i which I am today.
I cannot say that I have ever heard God speak to me, but somehow in a twisted way God kept me from crashing and burning. Alcohol made my family an emotional mess, so I was active in the Church and went to youth camps, weekly youth group meetings, and church every Sunday singing in the choir in my own tone deaf way.
The Congregational youth programme in the early 1960s was very intellectual discussing many ethical issues stemming from the Second World War. It was this way, in college but I became a youth group of one.
I learned to think thanks to a Congregational Minister and his son who were of the Henry David Thoreau New England version of Christianity. God protected me by making me the one who was never in the right place to seriously get myself in trouble or become a part of the high school or college drinking scene.
Being a transsexual woman mean that while I was attracted to women, I was extremely awkward around them completely out to sea when it came to courting them as one night stands or as partners.
I got into the hippy drug scene while in college but having no connections my drug usage was minimal and just occasional. God was protecting me. In this way, God protected me most of my life.
In a depressed state, I graduated from college and managed to be classified as a conscientious objector with a call-up number of 46. I worked as a physical therapy aid for two years. I lived this life as a butch female. As you see God kept me in a protective box and my life was survivable, but while the woman I married was an acceptable spouse, she had personality traits which would mean a divorce 32 years in the future. She was not the spouse that would be a spiritual partner that I felt that I needed. So I got good kids and grandkids and the freedom to become Michelle.
I was involved in organized religion as a shelter and a place to hide from the emotional storms around me. When I became Michelle, I kept my Faith, but was not active with any institutional Faith activities. My Faith became personal. Now not having a car and finding transportation difficult at night this makes it harder for me to go to meetings.
I sort of look at the Spiritual Writings of the Faith as lighthouses to lead me in the direction of the Unknowable God. So I don't know what it means to go back to God. When I get tired of looking into the darkness I turn to the Light. In my Faith, there are no priests or ministers and each of us is responsible for our own spirituality and for coming to terms with the Spiritual Laws. Personally, speaking, and it is not an official point of view of my Faith, I feel that I have to integrated all of God's Spiritual Laws and not just focus on the ones that I am having problems with. I follow the Spiritual Laws because I love God and not out of fear of judgment.
I am sharing all of this just to point out that there is a multitude of ways to going about your spiritual journey to God and just don't put yourself in a box. God may be acting in your life even when you don't notice that God is there. Look at the problems you have escaped and not just at the troubles you have fallen into.
Hi Cheryl, thanks for your comments and I'm not offended at all. I understand your perspective.
Jennifer and Michelle, what you both wrote resonates with me. It's good to know that along the way our spiritual journeys have had many similarities.
I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking the past couple of days. I think what prompted this whole thing was that while I have felt alienated from God for the past two years I only tried on the atheist costume o short time ago. I'm finding that particular set of clothes doesn't really fit too well. I found myself denying a theistic vision of God which for me really boils down to what is defined in the early ecumenical councils, the creeds, and the orthodox theologies taught by many theologians throughout the millennia. (Problem #1). At the same time I held on to a strong spiritual sense that I am unable to deny (Problem #2).
So how to reconcile all that?
I can't see myself going back to a simple Christian faith because I spent so much time and effort studying theology that I cannot simply read scripture through any other lens anymore. I also can't see adopting some other traditional faith because all the ones I am familiar with and especially the ones where I live all suffer from the same problem. They all claim some revealed truth to which I must subscribe. I can't do that again because one thing in the bible that I really do believe is that we all see through the glass darkly. I'm now immediately suspicious of anyone with the claim that they possess that one piece of glass that is clear.
I am beginning to see a way out of this conundrum, a new lens and a new approach.
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Deborah,
To start with I am not transsexual. I do know how many feel although not to the extent they do. That of course would be lying.
As for making your way back to God I can only offer a few scriptures and explanations. You could accept or reject them and I would not be offended.
To start with, in 1 Corinthians 2: 7-14 we see that the word of God is spiritually discerned. If you notice the disciples who became apostles and those who followed all received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. They prayed and received it.
Now, Paul wrote the spirit of man only seeks the things of man and the Spirit of God the things of God. That is why so many people believe so many different things. The carnal mind is enmity with God, the heart of man is deceitfully wicked and the spirit of man lusteth unto envy. Those who seek the word of God or truth using those rather than the Holy Ghost often have problems. Remember, kiddo, how it says lean not to thine own understanding but in all your ways acknowledge him?
The only advice I could offer which is scripturally sound would be to pray for the baptism of the Holy Ghost without ceasing until you get it. Submit unto the will of God regardless of how it leads you. Trust the Lord with all your heart.
I just couldn't help but wonder when it was that you felt drawn away or losing your closeness to the Lord in respect to events in your life? Also, we must remember the Lord answers in is time and not ours. Remember the man who layed for over 40 years? Just one of many.
This is all I could offer to try and help. I hope I have not offended you. Have a blessed night young lady.
I understand being lost. I've got lucky when I was 19.I want to say though that I'm presuming that those who have read my posts are aware the I'm a Jesus freak so that what I say as extremely biased. I went to catholic grade school, high school and 3 catholic Universities and a public University. I went through the hell we trans go through growing up with the bullies and the torment of being so very wrong. When I reached the age ot 19 the crap hit the fan and I won't go into it all, but the most important part was my baptism of the true spirit. I was born again. My birth would be considered heresy , apostasy, evil . a blight on God. a sickness. pure sin , etc. my rebirth came at the hands of the Hippie revolution. I was baptised in the Holy spirit of my beloved Lord through the use of LSD. I was a suicidal teen and a very depressed young adult. I basically flunked out of grade school and high school , but they just let me move through those years and I barely made it out of the educational system. when I was 18 I was one depressed little camper. I had lost my mother when I was 8. My father was very grief stricken and never remarried , but took care of me and my siblings. As I was saying when I was 19 I was in bad shape mentally besides everything else I was trans , but didn't understand it. The revolution started a few years before I was 19. I caught the tail end of it , but I sure did grab that tail. I turned into an LSD junky to escape the pain. My path to God is somewhat different than others ,but it saved my life and gave me my beloved Lord. I lived by a Catholic University and got a job by the campus at a hamburger joint. The campus has a pretty chapel by Lake Michigan. I had started doing drugs and walking the beach at night and encountering vision of God. Weed tends to do do funny things. One day I was on campus at the library, where I use to do weed and hang out, You could see the chapel from the library so I decided I'd go into the chapel after smoking out back. I got into the chapel and sat in a pew and got hit in the head by the love of my Lord. It turned into an everyday thing. I grew my hair bcame a Hippie move to LSD and continued praying to my beloved Lord in the chapel on LSD. Most Christians would call this sin so I guess I'm a Jesus freak from hell who is destined to return to hell when my time is up. This event I consider my birth , my baptism of the spirit. It's been 45 ears since this happened and my love for my Lord only gets stronger each second of my life. I was lucky to have God come into my heart. People say their prayers go unanswered, But my beloved Lord has given me the strength for the past 45 years. My life has not been really anything. I truly have nothing and I've never had more than food and shelter , but the thing I cherish above all is Gods love. God showed me Love all those years back and has never taken it away from me. I'm a blasphemous child who Loves my Lord more than life. I just wanted to say that Gods love is real at least to me.
Hi, I'm a life long catholic. I can't pretend to know as much about the bible as you all and I never studied religion after making my confirmation. (other than mass on Sundays) I really can't pretend to understand some of the jargon used above. I'm an engineer, my dominant language seems to be math most of the time.
That being said. I agree with "God doesn't make mistakes." That means none of us are mistakes. If others view us that way it is them that has made the mistake by second-guessing one of God's creations.
I believe God has answered all of our prayers for help. We have wonderful websites like this one where we can communicate with others and share our feelings. We have therapists that are there to help us on our journey. We have science that has and is still discovering ways to alleviate our pain. We have celebrities that are personalizing the issues we face. Caitlyn, Jazz, Laverne. And, we have each other. These may not be the answers we are looking to find but these are the ones that are given. We really can't expect for him to wave his hand and make everything go away, or make other people poof and change their attitudes. I wish but that's just not realistic.
A joke my priest told when I was young that always stays in my mind. (shortened a bit)
A man was stranded on his roof during a flood. He prayed to God to be saved.
A fella in a boat came by to help. The man said no thanks. God will save me.
A helicopter came to help. The man said no thanks. God will save me.
The man drowned. He met God in heaven and asked, "Why didn't you save me?".
God said, "I sent you a boat and a helicopter. My help doesn't have to look like a miracle."
Quote from: rochyrob on June 15, 2016, 08:15:27 AM
A joke my priest told when I was young that always stays in my mind. (shortened a bit)
A man was stranded on his roof during a flood. He prayed to God to be saved.
A fella in a boat came by to help. The man said no thanks. God will save me.
A helicopter came to help. The man said no thanks. God will save me.
The man drowned. He met God in heaven and asked, "Why didn't you save me?".
God said, "I sent you a boat and a helicopter. My help doesn't have to look like a miracle."
That's great...
I think that there is this subtlety to all of it. If one asks why God hasn't answered my questions? well, maybe he already did. Maybe that's why God's silent. If not, were you specific enough? There is this thing about "faith"... some kind of trust, trusting that it will be okay and that you'll be provided for.
Then smart people say: what about the children in Africa? yes, what about them? Well, we're not here for a vacation... We are here only temporary, as this place isn't where we belong. Maybe the mercy of checking out quicker is something to pray for. Who knows what is good and evil? This Universe is dark because it is inverted light, everything is inverted in this place, a place where good seems evil, and evil seems good. Browse around, anywhere, in reality and in virtual reality. Everything is turned upside down and inside out. Maybe
this is hell, and maybe that's why God can't communicate with us. Who knows? maybe our freedom is escaping from this Hell by believing, by trusting and not to sin ever again... maybe Jesus descended into hell to save us. Fire and brimstone, kinda like our solar system: fire: sun, brimstone: earth.
Deborah,
This caught my eye again tonight. It raised a few questions which I would like to ask.
To start, here you say you wish you could find your way back and that you miss the Lord. On other posts you have said that you answered and nobody was there. (If I recall right) That's an interesting way to see it from both ends so to speak.
Might I ask if this is because of your mood swinging back and forth? Since I am not transgender I don't know what all y'all go through. I would imagine your mood swings back and forth like all else from time to time. While a poor example, I guess like I do with cars. Do I restore it? Do I make a street rod? Then end up selling it.
I guess what I am asking is how deep is this desire? A passing thought? A shift in mood? Or a deep seated desire to get back to walking with the Lord on a daily basis?
I wish I was at liberty to share more but I can't about a certain person I know. This individual wrestled back and forth with transgender feelings for about 50 years before ever getting an answer. This individual has finally found peace and joy. I'm sure that not all will however.
I recall that in some cases people lay for over 40 years awaiting an answer. You know scripture as well as I so remember how it says in Ecclesiastes there is a time for all things done under the sun? The Lord's timing seems to fit his schedule and not ours. I guess this person I know just decided not to give up regardless of whether the answer came or not. Just keep the faith regardless.
As I look at the problems in my life (probably small by comparison) I find that regardless of whether I get an answer or not I have to hang on in faith. After all, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We know this means Jesus because as a Christian Christ is our hope and the evidence of the unseen God. Still in all, what a man sees why should he hope for it?
I have been tempted to give up many times in my areas of need but when I look at all the saints went through in Hebrews 11 my problems are rather small. I have a home, food and clothing. That which I need. Maybe more than many others have. For this I am thankful.
I guess what I am saying is that if you have a deep seated desire to feel the presence of God in your life don't give up. Too many people fail to see every promise of God is conditional and in his time.
I hope that this came across right. It isn't meant to discourage, belittle or question your faith or lack of it. It is just some thoughts as I care.
Have a blessed day young lady.
Del
Hi Del, thanks for that nice reply.
I'm not sure it was mood swings although my mood was certainly low when I walked away. Also, while my being trans was certainly a factor, it wasn't the only thing. There was also some political things totally unrelated to trans that happened at my church several years ago that left me feeling abandoned also.
So I'm going to tell you a few things to try and convey what was going on in my mind.
First though, about the presence of God. There was a time when I believed I really felt it. When I was going through a particularly hard Army course that was taxing me to my mental and physical limits, reading the Bible every night after everyone else was asleep gave me the strength to persevere. I even believed I had heard God speak to me, with a voice in my head. That actually brought me back after my first major crisis of faith brought on by an extreme depression (about being trans) that had led me to the brink of suicide. I didn't actually make an attempt but I did get as far as rehearsing the actions to prepare myself. There was a time when prayer was real and even seemed to be answered from time to time. I felt like I was being protected by something outside myself. Once while driving in a thick fog I was missed from being hit by a train by literally inches. There are many other examples but this is what I missed when I originally wrote the OP and what I still miss.
But on to why that's all gone. I didn't really lose my faith although I was in a dry spell not unlike the "Dark Night of the Soul." What happened was I deliberately rejected it and walked away. That was not an easy thing either. It was a lengthy soul wrenching thing that kept me awake for many nights. It ended with me telling God, "I reject you!"
So, why did I do it? I became convinced that if God was in fact real he had already condemned me to hell. So in the end there was nothing left to lose. I could stay where I was not wanted or I could leave and find my own way.
The catalyst that brought me to the decision point was Leila Alcorn's suicide in late 2014. I felt that and read in her words every spiteful thing the Church has done and continues to do in their words and actions towards us. I felt the sadness and hopelessness that the Church engenders and felt a tinge of jealousy that she had the courage I lacked to escape the this intractably hostile world brought about by the "Word of God".
I read blogs and forums where people feel free to say things they probably wouldn't actually say in public. I see Christians praising God in one sentence and then calling us the nastiest things; perverts, child molesters, mentally ill, and other things that if I wrote here would get this post deleted. Like many others I served 20 years honorably in the Army. I had the opportunity once to save a village full of people at some risk to myself. I did other good things too. But to the Christian, all of that is cancelled out because my simple existence is a harbinger of the apocalypse. That's what they say about us.
Now if it was simply their opinions then I wouldn't care so much. But according to Christianity they are filled with and taught by the Spirit of God. My own Church which claims to be God's direct conduit on earth calls us grave sin. So what that means after peeling away all the flowery fluff they are always speaking is that my reality severs any connection I might have with God and guarantees an eternity of separation in hell. I call this my reality because for a trans person this is reality. It is not a desire or a fantasy or something dreamed up for sexual gratification. It is simply our reality that we cannot escape. I tried escape for many years and it is simply impossible. Another lie of the Church.
And if this was just a small portion of the Church I could write their Holy Spirit claims off as mistaken. But it's not. It is the overwhelming vast majority worldwide that hold this position today and the nearly unanimous position of the universal Church throughout history up until less than one generation ago. So like it or not, I accepted that this is Christianity and in it I am condemned to hell.
While I do very much miss what I thought I once had I don't see any way back. I have tried and on those occasions where I have opened the door there is only darkness inside for me. Perhaps my previous faith simply existed in a state of mental innocence. That innocence was destroyed by a combination of study, trying and failing to find even the slightest hint of acceptance for us, and the Internet where the hearts of people are laid bare by their words. So it kind of feels like the third chapter of Genesis where it says, "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
I'm not really an atheist though. I said I thought God had spoken once and I still believe that. It could have been my own mind but at the time it didn't seem like it was. I'm just at the point where I see all the Abrahamic religions as anti-God. So I have to find another way.
Sorry if I got off to rambling too much here but I wanted to give your post the attention I thought it merited because I really did appreciate your thoughts.
Sapere Aude
Deborah,
Thank you for taking the time to answer. You are not rambling and I appreciate that. I hope you do not mind if I continue. I find some of the things you say intriguing.
To start, thank you for your years of service in the Army. You have done more than many who have cast stones at you. Many who may have done so in spiritual ignorance without knowing what they are doing. As well as those who just hate. I am personally grateful for all who served.
I would like to share some thought on some issues you touched on. Things many so called Christians don't know or may not even care to know. Things which can make them hurt others.
Yesterday I posted on Facebook that I am leaving. Not because of the unbelievers. Because of the so called Christians who pick and choose what portion of the word of God they want. I hope I can set this in order.
Before I start let me touch on what you said about having the Lord speak to you. I believe he did. I have had him speak to me so as you described it I knew that he most likely did. That means that he does know you which is a great starting place. It beats being one whom the Lord will say depart from me ye worker of iniquity, I never knew you.
Let me start with rejecting the Lord. Scripturally speaking many have rejected the Lord with their lips and not in their heart. Others have rejected the Lord in their heart while not doing so with their lips. While it is written from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks we should also know that when people are hurt or frustrated enough they may say something they do not mean in their heart. Like Moses smiting the stone twice and calling the children of Israel stiff necked rebels. We all have said some pretty bad things at one time or another. The Lord knows our heart.
Many Christians have rejected the Lord in their heart which can be seen by the way they speak or post. They can reject the truth while professing to be a Christian every step of the way. An example would be rejecting a scripture because it steps on their toes and yet proclaiming Christ. In such case that person has truly rejected the Lord even though they don't admit it. Those who speak from pain or frustration may have said the words yet not meant it in their heart. I tend to see that more with you.
When it comes to sin and abomination the things which hinder Christians most is knowledge of the word of God and lack of discernment. The biggest hindrance to faith is our own mind. Sort of as written, lean not unto thy own understanding. Paul bore witness in 1 Corinthians 2: 7-14 about the spirit of man seeking the things of man and the Spirit of God seeking the things of God. When we study our own mind can be our worst enemy. The word of God is spiritually discerned.
Naturally time and space does not allow going into depth with this but many who may call you an abomination are no better. Hence my reason for leaving Facebook. They are fast to acknowledge someone else's sin but justify their own. It is written about a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. We pray for a sin not unto death but not for a sin unto death. Those sins are sin (not unto death) and abomination. (sin unto death) Here's where many miss the boat so to speak.
We all have sin in our life we can cease. Cursing might be a simple example. We must remember the word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Therefor, if a Christian curses and repents and trys to stop it is just sin. Foregivable and one we can pray for. If a Christian says " I don't care what the word of God says" and continues to curse it is now an abomination. That is because of willing disobedience and rebellion (which is as witchcraft) and rejection both of the word of God and the Spirit of God which moved men to write that word.
The same holds true with transgender thoughts and urges. When a person has ththoughts and urges relating to being transgender they can pray about it or just not care what the word of God says. I won't go into the part where people say the word of God backs it as that does not apply to what you are saying and I don't want to risk saying anything that would hurt others or get the post shut down. So I avoid that issue.
Getting back to what I was saying, the individual can pray about it and it is sin. They can reject the word of God or not care what the Lord says and it is an abomination. Notice the same holds true for both transgender issues and cursing. Any sin for that matter. So who is worse? The person who prays about transgender issues or the person who curses and doesn't care what the Lord thinks? To sin in one area of the law is to sin in all. To seek the Lord in one area is to seek the Lord in all. To reject the word of God in one area is to reject the word of God in all. Therefore, you may have said "I reject you" to the Lord in frustration or anger and never really said it as far as he is concerned and you may have sinned without committing an abomination. Remember, it's the thoughts and intents of the heart.It's one thing to put on a dress for example from an urge you can't help and another to do so not caring what the word of God says. Totally different.
Before you give up on your faith totally I would hope that you would consider these things. You never know what the future holds for you if you hang on.
Every day I witnessed willing ignorance, picking and choosing scriptures and justifying sin and abomination from straight and cisgender people. These same people would cast stones at others not even realizing that they may be doing worse. Yet when you confront their sin of choice they were quick to justify it. Which, of course, makes it an abomination.
It's not in my place to judge you. Only the Lord can do that. Neither is it in my place to tell you how to live your life. That's up to you. I just hope that you don't give up on your faith too soon. And if you feel like you have strive to get it back. I do believe that the Lord spake unto you and if you do try to get your faith back he'll answer. Maybe not as you think. The hallway may still appear dark but it's the hope at the end of the hallway we need to seek. The end of our faith, the salvation of our soul as Peter said. I would rather strive to please the Lord battling with and praying about things in my life which go against the word of God than give up and assure my doom. And I have enough of my own kiddo. I have no room to judge.
I didn't mean to go on so long but your post and views touched me. The things I have been trying to explain are not easily explained in a short post. I can only hope that I was able to present them in a manner that makes sense and in a light many don't think about. Maybe if cisgender and straight people would consider some of these things they would quit doing what they do which goes against the word of God. Maybe they would quit throwing stones. Sadly, many straight and cisgender people do not even know about the difference between sin and abomination stemming from the heart. I guess the bride of Christ enjoys wearing her Husband's breastplate of judgment in a deeper spiritual sense while pointing out a MTF in a dress. Which are both the same.
As for me, I have stated before that I disagree with many things transgender people believe but then again I disagree with many things straight and cisgender people believe. But, that doesn't give me the right to accuse or judge or condemn. Each and every one of us have to answer for our own sins. I just hope you hang in there and don't give up. As long as you try to please the Lord there is hope. I would love to see you make it.
I hope this helps kiddo. You may be closer to the Lord than some who have hated you. Please don't give up.
Have a blessed day.
Del
Hi Deborah.
I came across your post, and specifically registered to add and offer my support.
Church, is only an organisation sometimes the legal, political side of Christianity.
Try not to remain caught up in the legalisms of church.
What is more important, is not "church", but your own personal relationship with Jesus.
I understand that has somehow been lost, but not with God, He is still there/here and listening and communicating with you too.
For example through Del, and even through me dare I say it.
I have not read all the replies so I may in fact be repeating other comments, but I wanted to note these things down with a clear head so to speak.
I have been visiting this forum for a number of years, and never had a desire to register and post, but here I am specifically to communicate with you.
I could have prayed and said God help Deborah and left it at that, job done, no need to do anything else.
But wait, no. Being a Christian, and a follower of Jesus means I must act and help too.
I am no spring chicken and have been on this earth some 58 years now, but in my relationship with Jesus, (one that began for me at 13 years old) I feel so blessed to be transgendered.
13, the age too that I discovered the word transvestite, ugh that is what I was, how disgusting is that!
The Bible seemed to contain words and phrases that made me feel awful too.
I am on a journey with God, no idea where it will lead, but I do know it is a journey.
What I would say at this point is don't punish yourself, I think those that say God does not make mistakes, are quite correct, you are not a mistake, and neither am I.
Being transgender too is only a part of who we are. We make so many "mistakes" in our humanness, that to take every phrase and church view as literal means we are all condemned, so what is the point.
But that is not the case and Easter releases us from the burden that we can carry if we chose to keep hold of it.
You comment on perhaps not being able to go back to simple Christian faith, because you have become more "worldly" is interesting.
The knowledge you have gained over the years seems to have moved you away from keeping it simple rather than perhaps what you hoped for.
In my lifetime I have been very involved in "churchy" things. Taken services, Sunday school teacher, bible classes and this list could go on, but my faith, if you will, seems to have remained child like, perhaps naive but I believe that is how it should be between a father and his child. I will always be Gods child whatever my age and knowledge.
I have never heard (voice) God, and yet I hear Him all the time. I don't always listen and say yes either, so I too am a long way from perfect, and yet he still loves me as he does you.
I am in danger of rambling here so I will pray for you and your journey and that you are able to open your heart and again and welcome in the Holy Spirit for guidance and continue with a personal spiritual journey with Jesus.
God Bless.
Remember Moses had to wait 40 years for his call too. God is still there with you, keep your heart open and He will speak to you when the time is right. We do not always get what we want, but He gives us what we need. Often we do not know or understand why we need something.
Jesus has been waiting 2000 years for us, we need to wait a bit longer for him
Jin
Quote from: Jin on June 30, 2016, 12:43:23 PM
Remember Moses had to wait 40 years for his call too. God is still there with you, keep your heart open and He will speak to you when the time is right. We do not always get what we want, but He gives us what we need. Often we do not know or understand why we need something.
Jesus has been waiting 2000 years for us, we need to wait a bit longer for him
Jin
^^This
Hi Del and Sophie,
I wanted to reply to both of you at the same time as your posts gave me so much to consider. My reply is delayed only because I was left with everything bouncing back and forth in my mind for a few days and I wanted these thoughts to settle in one place or the other before I responded. They finally have settled so here we go.
Your words have cracked open the stone that was encircling my heart leaving a path for me to find some way back. Thank you for that. In thinking about it all I find that for me there are two stumbling blocks. The first one Del addressed very well and that was the venom that flows out of so many Christian's mouths these days. I'm happy you didn't give me the usual answer, "they aren't real Christians," because whenever I hear that my mind shuts down and I think the other person doesn't have a very deep understanding of either the issue or faith in general. I am putting this one to rest then which as a side effect might help me to not post some things as I have in the past that tend to get me in trouble around here. Coincidentally, I was browsing one of my books this morning and came across this quote which reinforces your points rather well.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff341%2Fdebbie7571%2FForum%2520Pics%2FKempis_zpsb0kqbrgr.jpg&hash=ff27aac788d94e27a1823bf9d0c8daab7533ce1d) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/debbie7571/media/Forum%20Pics/Kempis_zpsb0kqbrgr.jpg.html)
Now the second stumbling block is the bigger one and I sense that we may not all agree. That is the whole issue surrounding being transgender. I did say that when my faith was simpler I felt a strong connection but once the simplicity was lost that connection was lost also. I think that what I meant was that over time the "confession of sins" we said corporately every Sunday became very real to me. In those times I also simply accepted what the Church said was true and where I found conflict I simply accepted I was wrong. For many years I would dutifully confess my sins and included in that was the fact of being transgender. I told myself that this really would be the time that I beat it or that God would finally beat it for me. I really would beat it too. Sometimes even for a few days but like everyone else that's ever been in this position, it always returned with a vengence. So, what this confession became was the weekly occasion to stand before God and tell him a bold faced lie. I knew I wasn't going to beat it and after more than 40 years it was evident that God wasn't going to beat it for me either. Now this was particularly serious in my mind because the whole confession was connected to the Eucharist which as a Catholic I believed was very real. This scripture burned in my mind.
Quote1 Co 11:27–32 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
This remains a huge stumbling block if I continue to believe what the Church says about me is true. And I don't believe that at all. I believe they are intentionally blinding themselves to facts in order to preserve a piece of theology that is not even stated anywhere in the scriptures in the way they interpret it. I want to expand on this a bit to try and communicate my rationale.
Clearly, according to the scriptures God judges actions and misdeeds, but more importantly he judges the heart, or what is in the mind. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, one will be very surprised at who is in heaven and even more surprised at who is not. The Church, and in this I include all of them with this teaching, says that this is a sin like all others and is simply something from which we must repent. This means that whatever action or evil thought we have must be put aside, that we must be sorry for that action or thought, and that we must not do it again.
For a truly transsexual person this is an impossible thing to do and beyond that doesn't even make any sense. This is not something we think, nor is it something we do. It is what we are regardless of what act might come out of it. For us it is an ontological fact and medical science seems to support that view. When someone says I must repent of this all I can think is how can I possibly repent of
myself! It would be like telling a person born blind they must repent of being blind for if they don't they will be judged for the fire.
The common refrain flowing from all that is to "Hate the sin but love the sinner." So the Church says God loves us but hates the sin. Given what I said above, how can this possibly have any meaning? The sin is Me. The message then might be translated as God hates Me but loves Me. This so blatantly violates logic as to be cast aside as pure nonsense. But this is the message we hear. So I am left with the conclusion that the Church(s) are wrong about something that really isn't even that complicated IF they were to really examine the issue and not approach it with preconceived notions and a mindset for preserving some tradition.
I do not believe this, but the alternative is that we all really are mentally deficient in some fashion. This does not absolve the Church(s) and in fact leaves them worse off than if they were wrong. For where is justice in constantly mocking, belittling, and condemning the mentally deficient? The answer is simple. There is no justice there. All we see is pride, arrogance, and wrath.
Regardless of which of the above is true, what is it the Church(s) tell us to do? They say to pray, which doesn't work for this. They say to just live with it which leads to depression and suicidal ideation. Is that what God wants? They hand out such platitudes as "this is your cross to bear." They say we should get treatment while denying the only possible treatment that any doctor has ever seen work. Is that the mind of God? I don't think so. But if it is then I would rather spend eternity in hell than one minute with such a twisted being. Anyway, I don't think it is the mind of God at all which leaves a huge question mark over what "Holy Spirit" is guiding all these Churches.
So I am left with unabashedly rejecting the Church but desiring God. I'll try and see where that leads. Actually I have been trying for a while but deliberately void of any "Christian" content. That doesn't work for me very well for a variety of reasons but mainly because it feels like I'm just making things up. Anyway, thank you again for your kind words before. They have helped me.
Hi Deborah.
Thank you so much for your in depth explanation.
Sorry for the late response, been away.
QuoteCoincidentally, I was browsing one of my books this morning and came across this quote which reinforces your points rather well.
Was it coincidence, I wonder.
The "church" whatever branch/denomination is at the end of the day just a collection of like minded people.
That is not intended to denounce the church, but sometimes they can get too caught up with legalism, and in doing so loose the Spirit.
I attend a local church that currently is very Spirit filled and growing, the Sunday is only a small part of what my church is about, it is very much community based.
So I feel blessed to have found it.
Try not to give up on "church"
QuoteSo I am left with unabashedly rejecting the Church but desiring God. I'll try and see where that leads. Actually I have been trying for a while but deliberately void of any "Christian" content. That doesn't work for me very well for a variety of reasons but mainly because it feels like I'm just making things up
I do understand this, and we do need to meet and share with others.
I think your are taking some really positive steps.
Try not to get too caught up in legalism and just enjoy the companionship of the Holy Spirit.
Look for the little miracles, or "coincidences", they do happen.
You could always start your own church! A group of like-minded Christians sharing, loving each other and worshiping our God together.
The CS Lewis quote is something that crosses my mind every now and then.
Today I was wondering how would I handle it when this body dies and I then meet those whom He has welcomed and yet society even church rejected as not worthy for one reason or another.
Neither of us are worthy for so many reasons, I feel very confident that being trans is not one of those reason, perhaps what we do as trans though is.
For me I just try to do the next right thing.
I was pleased to read your post, it came across as positive.
Sophie.
Sin in the New Testament context is literally translated as "missing the mark." That is failing to live up to what Christ has defined as "right" conduct.
The Church, Evangelical and Catholic, say that receiving treatment for gender dysphoria in the form of HRT or surgeries is sin. They both say the correct course is to just "suck it up."
However, in my case I am taking HRT at present and that treatment, which they define as sin, has allowed me to put aside some things that actually are sin in my mind. If I were to stop HRT I have no doubt that I would turn back to those things because of the restored dysphoria.
I feel absolutely no guilt for being trans nor do I feel any guilt for treating it in the only way that medical science found to work.
I know beyond any doubt at all that those teachers of the Church are wrong. Yet they claim the guidance of the Holy Spirit in telling me what I do is sin.
So what I conclude is that the Churches are in fact not a place where you can find the Spirit of God. The only thing there is the spirit of delusional self righteous arrogance with people, like Old Testament prophets, claiming to speak for God. Maybe once upon a time it was different.
But having said all that, I have separated my faith entirely from any Church to the point that I don't care what label is on me. Call me Christian or call me gnostic heretic. Either one is fine.
I seek God and I use Christian writings and place my faith in that context. I am familiar with that and understand it. So I am somewhat like the ancient desert ascetics, on a solitary path.
Maybe if I lived in a place where 90% of the churches were not Southern Baptist or some other conservative evangelical sect I might seek to rejoin. But I can't place myself in another congregation that believes with a Godly certainty that I am embodied sin even if they do believe it with a smile on their face. I did that in the past and it eats away at my soul.
Sapere Aude
I have been to churches before and after HRT that have put me down. Before, it was for being androgynous, and not fitting what they thought a man should be. After, it was for not singing, while I was working on my voice.
I believe that attending services is not mandatory, especially among those that seek to judge and demonize.
Deborah.
I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey and will be thinking of you too.
I am confident you will find the relationship you are searching for.
My thoughts are just keep it simple and share your life with Jesus.
There are some words in a Leonard Cohen song/poem that resonate very strongly with me and I wish to share them with you.
QuoteAnd you want to travel with him
And you want to travel blind
And you think maybe you'll trust him
For he's touched your perfect body with his mind.
God Bless Deborah.
Deborah,
I have found over the years that many denominational churches must only preach what they are allowed to preach by their governing body. Therefore, they will preach that which fills pews and not that which leads a flock to Christ. Many things are believed which are wrong and many who throw stones point out the mote in their neighbor's eye without seeing the beam in their own.
In like manner famous and rich ministers do likewise. They like so many denominational bodies sway back and forth with whatever is either accepted, popular or brings in money. Not that which is brought forth from the Lord by his Spirit.
I hold small non denominational services where the Holy Ghost leads the entire service. No bowing down to a governing body or having to worry about being replaced as pastor. When I evangelize it is funded by myself. Once again, answering to nobody but the Lord. Unless the Lord tell anyone to come to my services one would never expect to find a chapel. It's small and in the middle of nowhere. It looks so hillbilly the only thing missing is an engine hanging from a tree in the front yard. It truly takes the leading of the Lord for a person to know where it is and recognize it as a chapel.
If and when you seek a place to attend don't judge by the outer appearance. In these last days small bodies of believers are springing up in the most unlikely places. Many are easily overlooked. Trust the Lord to lead you to the right place. Continue to trust and pray and allow his leading.
I am glad to have you as a friend and sister in Christ. I hope that you continue to seek the will of God in all things and have peace within your soul.
May God bless.
I don't have time to write a detailed response right now, but in general I repeatedly receive much needed nourishment for my faith in God from experiencing and thinking on the beauty and awesome intricacy of this world we live in. Depending on the performance of God's followers leads to doubts, pain, and anger. Propitiation is to me a key concept in my faith - I don't get what I deserve, I get a permanent pardon (and yes many of God's "followers" have abused this.) And I believe God can accept me in the here and now while I am full of faults because first of all someone else has paid the price for my "sins" and second of all God has promised to make me into something beautiful and he already sees me as I will be no longer full of the blemishes of my bad choices, not as the wretched person that I still am (but I hope less wretched than I used to be.)
When I cannot see or feel God's presence I look for signs of his greatness and compassion and love. Sometimes I cannot find this in other people, but I always can find it in some part of His creation. That's how over the long-term I manage to keep my faith and draw sustenance from God even when I beaten down by hate, intolerance, and judgmentalism.
Hi Dell,
You cannot imagine what you did for me. All it took was your kind word coming from somebody outside this community, one who isn't obligated to follow the party line, and my anger with God fell away. With it has mostly fallen away my anger with the churches. I still feel like they are entirely wrong in this matter. And I don't understand why people who proclaim themselves to speak for God so easily calumniate those they don't know. But I am learning to internalize what is contained in this quote from one of my readings today.
QuoteHe who minds neither praise nor blame possesses great peace of heart and, if his conscience is good, he will easily be contented and at peace.
Praise adds nothing to your holiness, nor does blame take anything from it. You are what you are, and you cannot be said to be better than you are in God's sight. If you consider well what you are within, you will not care what men say about you. They look to appearances but God looks to the heart. They consider the deed but God weighs the motive.
In the end it is they who will have to answer for what they do now. Perhaps they will be judged with the same exacting standard with which they judge.
I have been doing well the past week and am taking great comfort in reading the psalms everyday. I have read them many times before but this time it often feels like I am seeing it anew with refreshed understanding.
I want to tell you of an experience I had about 21 years ago. I think it is really this that made my attempt to become an atheist unsuccessful. And I was trying really hard too.
I was at a carnival with my family one evening and we were strolling around to different rides for my children. They were quite small at the time. My mind was focused on the carnival and on having fun. All of a sudden it felt as if my reality was altered, sharpened into something quite intense. This feeling is hard to describe as things looked different, but the same. The sounds around me dropped away although I do not recall anything replacing them. The next part is what felt very otherworldly. I looked at a group of strangers walking nearby and the thought came into my mind, "I love you and I would die for you." The otherworldly part was that while I was seeing with my own eyes and thinking with my own mind the overwhelming sensation was that I was a bystander experiencing this through Jesus' or the Holy Spirit's eyes and mind. Then just as suddenly as it started, it ended. I had never had that feeling before or since and I am quite unable to duplicate it. However, I was left with the overpowering desire to go back into that state and stay there forever.
That was my state of pure innocence and then over the years I let theology and doctrine cloud it all over. So I am returning there with a clean mind.
I read a book a few years ago also that left a big impression. It was called, "Story of a Soul," by St. Therese of Lisieux. What she described in her book seemed very much like what I experienced for that one brief instant.
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I have been trying to read some psalms every day, although sadly I have not been entirely consistent. Today psalm 66 rolled around once again and as it does every week, this verse jumped out at me.
May God have mercy on us, and bless us: may he cause the light of his countenance to shine upon us, and may he have mercy on us.
Psalm 66:1
I am finding, since making peace with myself and with God, that reading scripture has taken a new meaning. Before, I read through the lens of an angry God. So everything was filtered through an underlying level of fear and trepidation. Now I see and pray to God as Jesus told us to; as a child would to a loving father. So when I read psalm 66, I feel the peace and comfort of a child knowing that all will be well. This is a very new and very good feeling.
Deborah,
I'm so happy that you are at peace with the Lord kiddo. It's a blessing to see you posting positive comments and feel that peace just while reading them. The peace which God gives is a blessing that makes so much difference in our faith. Fear and such makes it such a struggle to walk in faith.
I hope you continue to help others here with your words. I truly admire your style of writing (as I am crude of speech) and the eloquence of your wording. Your knowledge of scripture is admirable and can really help others. It's a joy to feel such a joyful spirit with your posts.
Take care sister and may God bless.
Del
I try to wake up early every morning to read from several books for an hour so so before I get ready for work. I always try to find at least one thing that has personal meaning to me and I'm making an effort to journal it so that I don't forget. Right now, things at work are slow so I've got lots of time. Today there was this.
"I am wretched, as it were imprisoned and weighted down with fetters, until You fill me with the light of Your presence, restore me to liberty, and show me a friendly countenance. Let others seek instead of You whatever they will, but nothing pleases me or will please me but You, my God, my Hope, my everlasting Salvation. I will not be silent, I will not cease praying until Your grace returns to me and You speak inwardly to me, saying: "Behold, I am here. Lo, I have come to you because you have called Me. Your tears and the desire of your soul, your humility and contrition of heart have inclined Me and brought Me to you."
Thomas à Kempis, The Imitation of Christ (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, 1996), 143.
I thought about this for a while because it seemed as if he was writing it directly to me today. God has been there all along, even when I turned my face away, denying him, and trying to believe that he was not real. That's kind of an amazing thing. His love is real and he gives it freely, asking that we in turn give it freely also.
Then, as it wont to do, my mind began wandering and this scripture came to mind.
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? Ps 2:1 (KJV)
My desire for God is real and his being with me my entire life has always seemed very real. But a considerable number of Christians and Christian Institutions want to tell me that it is not real, that God rejects me, that my existence is an affront to God's honor. Using the name of Jesus as a weapon and the Bible as a talisman they rage, like medieval witch burners, that we cannot be allowed to exist.
But if God chooses to love me and to love you, why do they rage against his will? If God really does hate me for what I am why doesn't he tell me that himself? Is God mute? Is God simply a dusty book? Or is God a Living Spirit that is with us today? And if he is a Living Spirit then should I listen to the voice of God, or should I listen to the voice of men? I know how I will answer that.
(Thomas à Kempis was a German monk who wrote this book in the 15th century. I'm finding it to be a very good devotional for daily contemplation.)
Quote from: Del on August 03, 2016, 12:03:49 AM
I hope you continue to help others here with your words. I truly admire your style of writing (as I am crude of speech) and the eloquence of your wording. Your knowledge of scripture is admirable and can really help others. It's a joy to feel such a joyful spirit with your posts.
Take care sister and may God bless.
Del
thank you for that kind compliment. I do like to write and when something inspires me the words just seem to come. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for public speaking. I'm not a very good speaker and even with something prepared it never sounds like it feels.
Maybe that's a good thing or I might have more problems with pride than I already have. That continues to be a work in progress.
Hi Deborah,
I've been stewing on this for a while, and I am saddened that our congregations in Christ have left you feeling this way, (actually I am appalled).
I am a non-conformist Christian. I sit in the odd space between the Congregationalists and the Quakers (although I will freely admit, I am closer to the latter), so I'll apologise now, if this is a little left-field, or contrary to your beliefs - I have tried to condense some of my beliefs below, to try to give some insight into my perspectives.
Rest assured, Christ is with you. Christ is within you, and your seeking of counsel on your journey makes you perfect in His sight. Your belief and faith alone, makes you worthy.
Peace be with you
Sno.
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A little about my faith:
I am a non-conformist Christian.
I believe that we are all made in the divine image, so we are all worthy of Gods love.
I believe that everyone has something to contribute, and Gods word can come to us through anyone (it's often expressed as the Divine Light).
I believe that it is vain to believe that rules, and rituals will make our relationships right with God, none are more Holy, than another. We are all the Lords children, equal and perfect.
Worship isn't necessarily a formula, there is no fixed path to come to the Lord.
If we are following the guidance and learning of the Spirit, then we will receive guidance when we need it to remain on the Lords path (maturity in the practice of faith).
We can worship as one, or ten thousand, our omnipresent God means we can worship on a hill, in woodland, at a desk, on a train, wherever and whenever we feel that we need to, lead by the Spirit. Our worship isn't bound by sanctity of spaces, places, thoughts, words, actions or activities.
We gather as a congregation, simply to be with like minded folk, for support in our personal practice of faith.
We need to slow and listen intently to be able to hear the Lords guidance, and that guidance can come from anywhere.
Jesus isn't the destination, it is the starting point of a journey and a life of faith. Through faith Jesus will be with us at all stages of our life's journey, in whichever direction it takes us, with love.
Our lives are, our witness and testimony, and should reflect well on our congregation.
I believe in simplicity, because that makes living easier, easier living gives us time to reflect, and continue our search for the Lords guidance.
I believe that a gathering of believers is communion, a celebration that we were given such a perfect gift, we are blessed.
I (was) a conservative Christian until last year, when my wife walked out. I've spent my whole life trying to be "cured" of my transsexuality. After she left, I decided to see if it was really me or not...and here I am, a year later, on hormones, and it was all...so easy. Almost like God smoothed the way. I don't know if He did or not, but at this point, my beliefs have become open minded enough to think that might be the case. I know God loves me, no matter what. I believe in every word of the Apostles' Creed. Beyond that, I dunno. I was a believer in the infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible...now I think that it could have been adulterated over the centuries. So all I can say is my faith in God is still there, my faith in the 'church' is not necessarily what it was.
If this helps!
Thank you for your thoughts. This thread has been going on a while now and has turned into a diary of sorts about my faith journey. I do appreciate what others say here and test my evolving faith beliefs by what you say.
I wrote a lengthy post this morning but then realized it may have been worded too strongly. I was giving into anger which I'm trying to avoid. So, I'll try again. This is not anger but is simply honesty.
To sum up my previous thoughts,
* God is truth.
* Anything that is truth is not opposed to God.
* Anything that is opposed to truth is not of God.
* It is true that I exist. (The I here refers to the ontological reality of my mind - that is trans)
* Institutional Christianity stridently denies that I exist so is therefore opposed to truth.
* Since institutional Christianity is opposed to truth it is therefore opposed to God.
I won't quote it but John 8:41-47 applies.
Besides trans, I could come up with any number of other examples where modern American Christianity is fighting hard to oppose that which is true. I won't get into all that as it could encompass an entire book. Besides, those books are already written.
Because of what I said above I can no longer trust anything the Church proclaims now nor can I trust that anything they have ever proclaimed in the past is true.
However, I have come to a restored faith in God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. While this is true my precise beliefs are no longer orthodox because orthodoxy is dependent upon having some faith that the Church has faithfully passed down the "truth". In earlier times I would have been burned at the stake twice by the Good Christians, once for being trans and then again for being a heretic. I guess that only the first time would have been painful.
It doesn't really help my attitude a whole lot either when so many self proclaimed Children of God make public their desire to bring back these types of punishments for people like me. I thank the Internet for this as it has made public that which was before hidden and denied.
I do not claim that my current understanding of God is the "One Truth". I only claim that it is what enables me to make the connection.
That's where I am right now. One day we will find out who was completely "right". I expect that will be nobody. I also expect that God will not be pleased with those who erect barriers to him through their own invented "Truths". I seem to remember Jesus addressing that very issue in his day. So, we have travelled 2000 years into the future and nothing has changed with the self proclaimed Children of God doing everything in their power to thwart the spiritual unity of mankind with God.
I don't see a point in attending a Church where I am supposed to affirm creeds that I no longer believe. That pretty much includes all Churches. This seems to me to be dishonest and frankly works against my faith. Maybe I'm wrong here.
LOL, this post has turned out longer than the other one. It's tone is better though.
Quote from: Deborah on August 12, 2016, 08:58:48 AM
To sum up my previous thoughts,
* God is truth.
* Anything that is truth is not opposed to God.
* Anything that is opposed to truth is not of God.
* It is true that I exist. (The I here refers to the ontological reality of my mind - that is trans)
* Institutional Christianity stridently denies that I exist so is therefore opposed to truth.
* Since institutional Christianity is opposed to truth it is therefore opposed to God.
Being fully respectful of your much greater experience which I honestly hope to lean on over the next year or two to stay sane...
Could I suggest that maybe the last two aren't as absolutely true as one might conclude? Now, I am Catholic, so bias might intrude, but I do not believe that the Church or its doctrine denies that you exist. Rather, there is a conflict of language, of how belief and perception of reality are expressed. For us laity, we're fast to change both opinion and manner of speech, and vocabulary we use to construct that speech. For the Church, and in particular the Roman and Orthodox Churches, they are constrained by a slowness of response and an archaic accumulation of vocabulary that makes reconciliation of conversation impossible.
As Transgender we (I'll boldly presume to include myself) are at the very bleeding, ragged edge of this linguistic adaptation. We will have long passed on by the time the Church digests the words we use to describe ourselves; even though the intent is benign to begin with. My mind is without a doubt feminine when not broken by a very inappropriate response to the presence of T. They don't have a brain fixer device that make the brain like T; but there are plenty of meds that delete the T or prevent it from being psychologically explosive; in the process of fixing this, I will feel more consistent as a person if my body's appearance and mental feel is made more feminine. (and it would be nice if it could be completely fem, though getting from here to there may be impossible).
So, I'm not a victim, I am simply me, and eventually the Church will grasp a correct theological language to describe this, probably in a couple hundred years or so.
But you definitely exist. And exist today.
The real problem is not the institutional Church, its a belief that the Church is somehow able to move culture and local/tribal tradition. That is definitely NOT true, especially on single human lifetime scales. Culture and tribal tradition vastly overpower anything the Church (or other religious institution of other faiths) might do. Its not even a fight. And what's worse, is adherents to a tradition or cultural tenant will, and always have, wrap their cultural preference in any and every extraneous piece of religious language they can as justification, and the harder the stretch, the more intense and strident is the wrapping.
I would instead suggest the following:
* God is truth.
* Anything that is truth is not opposed to God.
* Anything that is opposed to truth is not of God.
* It is true that I exist. (The I here refers to the ontological reality of my mind - that is trans)
* Western cultural history stridently denies that I exist so is therefore opposed to truth.
* Institutional Christianity sees me, but has no words to address me.
* Western cultural history is therefore opposed to God, but the Church is too weak to aid me.
* The Church, being the Body of Christ, needs its hand to step up, and challenge that which is cruel and ungodly.
In short, we humans like to blame our leaders for our own failings. Our Western culture of violence and intimidation, hatred and bloodshed, lust and gluttony is what must be challenged and driven out from the Church, all the while offering forgiveness and a safe home to those who might repent. The Pope is not the problem. We (laity in general) are.
I'm Catholic too and when I wrote what I did I was mindful that I might be overstepping a bit.
Where I think my characterization does fit though is the current Church's insistence that my identity is imaginary and not real. If it is not real then it might as well not exist.
It is the Church's insistence that the sum total of a human being resides in a few square inches between our legs and not in the the seat of human rationality (the mind) which is the part that is created in the image of God.
It is the Church's insistence that I can pray this away.
Most of all its the Church's silence on the whole matter which leads me to believe that they think if they can ignore it long enough it will go away.
I would be happy if they would say anything concrete, even if that were negative, rather than the veiled speeches by the Pope that infer we are some grave threat to humanity.
Quote from: Deborah on August 12, 2016, 08:58:48 AM
I do not claim that my current understanding of God is the "One Truth". I only claim that it is what enables me to make the connection.
That's where I am right now. One day we will find out who was completely "right". I expect that will be nobody. I also expect that God will not be pleased with those who erect barriers to him through their own invented "Truths". I seem to remember Jesus addressing that very issue in his day. So, we have travelled 2000 years into the future and nothing has changed with the self proclaimed Children of God doing everything in their power to thwart the spiritual unity of mankind with God.
I don't see a point in attending a Church where I am supposed to affirm creeds that I no longer believe. That pretty much includes all Churches. This seems to me to be dishonest and frankly works against my faith. Maybe I'm wrong here.
LOL, this post has turned out longer than the other one. It's tone is better though.
This is similar to where I am at now in my thinking. My faith in a God that is good and loving and gracious and compassionate if anything, has strengthened since starting transition. But I cannot deal with the junk that trans people get from church members practicing perverted applications of the Gospel of Love and Grace. If I had kept going to my old church I am pretty sure it would be a pretty unpleasant experience adding significantly to the stress on transitioning. I do not believe that Jesus is pleased with such perversions of His message. So my trans people have left the church and lost their faith because of such treatment. I can understand why, but their suffering rejection in the church is from gross misapplication of the Christian message by its members and is a failure to
accept people as they are as Jesus so eloquently taught us to do in word and deed.
Some problems with Christianity are that so many people have arisen who are not called and anointed of God to minister they have split the body of Christ and brought in heresy. The remnant that still seek and preach the truth are hated by them and shunned as badly as transgender people. Nothing will clear a room, church or pews faster than preaching the truth and crushing their fantasy Christianity.
True preachers called, ordained and anointed of the Holy Ghost are still around but their flocks seldom have over 12 -20 people in attendance. On a good day. That's because the truth still has the same reproach as when Jesus taught it.
Christians today forget there truly is one truth. As written, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father. The word of God says the Lord never changes and Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus Christ the same yesterday, to day and forever. He never changes nor his word.
Christians today forget the same Lord who raised the dead, opened blind eyes and caused the deaf to hear and lame to walk made a whip and drove the moneychangers out of the temple. He called the Pharisee a nest of vipers and rebuked scribes and priests. So, if we do use the whole word of God we see that Jesus is not "love only" and "grace only" but a Lord who delights in a just weight and an equal balance. As written, he said I am never alone for I always do those things which please my Father. If God loves it Jesus loves it and if God hates it Jesus hates it.
Having said thus, too many look down their nose at others and point out sin and abomination others do while ignoring their own. A few straight cisgender Christians overlook are a lying tongue and being proud of heart. Both abominations.
As for whether or not transgender people exist, yes they do. Every Christian I know says so. Their disagreement is in doctrine concerning it. Most of whom have not taken the time to get to know transgender people or attempt to think as they do. As Galatians 6:1 says, considering thyself lest thou be tempted and as Paul wrote unto the Jew I became as a Jew. Until they can put themselves into the shoes of a transgender person and consider how they may feel they aren't qualified to say much, if anything. And before they even get that far they need to have enough faith and guts to go beyond doctrinal limitations of man, denominational limitations and the foolishness of the greedy mega church pastors and televangelists.
Maybe if Christians can go beyond what I listed and seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost and truly be led of the Spirit and come out of the mess called Christianity they can attempt to minister to transgender people. Maybe if they can wonder how they would feel to wake up with the body opposite their mind and feelings. Maybe if they could actually take the time to get to know transgender people instead of throwing out clobber passages. Maybe then they would have a desire to help them with their faith instead of being an uninformed, lack of feeling having super Christian wanna be.
Deborah, it doesn't matter that you are Catholic and don't care for traditional church. I am hated by most Christians and I am not in agreement with orthodox Christianity among all else I listed. I am an equal opportunity heretic in the eyes of most Christians. Gay and straight, cisgender and transgender alike, many hate me because I believe in using the whole word of God and making sure the things I teach and preach are scripturally sound and in accordance with sound doctrine. I guess to an extent it's surprising being cisgender and knowing that probably 50% of the people who do like me are gay and transgender.
Deborah, I am happy with your scriptural knowledge and your posts bless me as I have said before. Don't feel alone because I have very few churches I visit myself because of disagreements with doctrine or the attitudes of those who should know better. As far as I am concerned you are welcome at my meetings any time kiddo.
May all have a blessed day.
One thing I like to do is read the books of the saints and martyrs. I'm sure that some of the stories are exaggerated or even mythological. But many are not. Throughout the ages, some really stand out as true witnesses. These are not the ones who achieved fame or fortune. Most either had nothing or gave everything away to serve God. Most died poor in material wealth and many in total disgrace to the world.
One of the earliest fairly reliable stories is that of St. Perpetua. It's one of my most memorable stories as her words were preserved. She was executed in 202 AD in Carthage during the persecution under Severus.
I compare her to all the American Christians who cry about how badly they are being persecuted and can only shake my head.
The Martyrdom of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/perpetua.html
Actually, I agree fully. It's a shame when Christians cry about being persecuted. Overseas they are being crucified, burnt alive, beheaded, stoned, raped, maimed and tortured. Rather makes most look rather pathetic when they cry about it over nothing. But, I guess in mercy different people have a different rate of how something effects them. I reckon that water bill may be just as bad as being beaten for some. I can't say as I am trying to keep my focus on not complaining about things after seeing what people elsewhere go through.
I have also considered some of the horrors some of the transgender people have shared with me in private. Since I am not at liberty to share that I won't mention any but I can say that many have lived a nightmare. As many or most here already know. I can only hope that the Lord who see everything and witnessed what they went through will ease their mind and lift them up. Give them a better life in one fashion or another.
In Hebrews there is a list of things people suffered for the Lord. That alone makes me feel bad when I complain about my tribulations. People went through far worse than I. That's for sure.
Foxx's Book Of Martyrs is another one which shows what some endured for the Lord. While they went through hell it did magnify the ability of the Lord to strengthen people in their hour of need. I found it humbling.
I enjoy this thread as it does seem to cover quite a few areas.
May God bless.
Deborah,
I keep coming back to John 14:25-27 and 1 John 2:27
You are anointed, you are lead by the Spirit, you are following the teaching of the spirit. Your faith is strong, and growing.
My journey lead me to my current destination, through study of the practices, and beliefs in comparison to scripture. In much the same way that questioning my own gender lead me here.
Peace be with you.
Sno.
When I think I am following the voice of the Holy Spirit there always is another voice in my mind saying, "are you sure." The scriptures do certainly state that "the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him." 1 John 2:27 (RSV2CE). But I look around and I see everyone making the claim that they are following the Holy Spirit and they are all believing different things.
Can they all be really following the Holy Spirit? No, because, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever." Heb 13:8. But nevertheless it has been this way since the beginning, everyone fighting and killing each other over who really is hearing the Holy Spirit.
In the fourth century the priest Arius was following the Holy Spirit when he said that Jesus was the first creation of God. The Catholic Bishops were following the Holy Spirit when they said no, Jesus is God incarnate. Then followed several hundred years of the Arians and the Catholics banishing and killing each other to prove whose Holy Spirit message was right.
In the 11th Century the Catholics, following the Holy Spirit, said that the Holy Spirit comes from the Son. The Orthodox, following that same Holy Spirit countered that no, the Holy Spirit comes from the Father. Thus followed more bloodshed and a church schism that continues 1000 years later.
In the 16th Century in England, Queen Mary burned Protestants at the stake followed shortly by Queen Elizabeth burning Catholics at the stake, all at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. And another schism that continues nearly 500 years later.
I am finishing a two volume set of the History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist. That is around 1600 pages to explain the various interpretations that Christians have all put forth, all supposedly at the teaching of the Holy Spirit?
None of this is as it should be. Jesus said, "Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." John 17:11. Nevertheless, it is the way things are.
So it seems quite evident to me that in most, if not all, cases the prompting of the Holy Spirit is simply a reflection of ones own intellect.
So, is what one believes comes from God ever real? Has anyone ever really heard his voice? I am prepared to believe that it's possible but that leads to my dilemma. How can I be sure that it's God speaking and not just me intellectualizing my own desires? How can I claim to be hearing the Holy Spirit when the claims of so many others are so obviously false? There seems to be a great danger here of falling into spiritual pride, into thinking I am something I am not. I know that I'm prone to that sort of thing anyway so I try to guard against it.
So, how can one know?
[I know the Catholic answer which is to ignore whatever is in my mind and to just believe what they say. For obvious reasons, that does nothing for me right now unless I want to just accept that I'm an abomination and a nuclear weapon waiting to explode and annihilate humanity, to paraphrase the Pope.]
Deborah, I keep following your postings on your thoughts on spirituality and religion. You are obviously well read and well versed and they are very well thought out. For me it is all based on the fact that I believe that my God is all loving, all compassionate and merciful. I am Catholic also, and I just wish that, in this, the year of Pope Francis's decree of "A Year of Mercy" that starting with him that everyone would actually learn the true meaning of what that means. I agree with you, there is so much misinformation being stated as doctrine that one begins to question their own faith because of what is being preached from the pulpit. I continue to attend church for the simple reason that I feel closer to my God when I am there and leave feeling better for being there. I am sure that I could also get that same feeling from attending a church of a different denomination because again it is simply because of what I believe in and feel, and not where I am and what is being said. Sometimes I think we have a tendency of overcomplicating things, rather than keeping them at their core, if that makes any sense to you. Hugs
I would like again to take the Holy Eucharist. However, the best I can make out from its vagaries, by Catholic definition I am in a state of mortal sin for using HRT.
So, believing them and taking it simply sends me to hell.
Or ignoring them removes any reason I have for being a Catholic. By definition, taking communion is a state of coming into perfect union with God and with the Church.
Either way, taking it right now leaves me with a bad feeling.
I'm not actually feeling like I am in a state of mortal sin. I feel that I am at peace with God. My feeling of peace though is why I asked, how do I know.
Even if this is a sin it a whole lot less of a sin than what it solved. These things it enabled me to be rid of were worse.
- The daily desire to die in my sleep.
- Drinking every day simply to get drunk and not feel so bad.
- Constant short temper and perpetual anger with my wife.
- Porn addiction to an extremely distracting degree.
There is no way out within the confines the Church has defined.
Quote from: Deborah on August 14, 2016, 11:41:03 AM
I'm not actually feeling like I am in a state of mortal sin.
I don't actually think you are, or I am; but you have to formulate the position in language the Church has already managed to accept and digest.
I have a medical condition that causes horribly graphic, brutal, predatory sexual images to constantly run through my mind, regardless of what I want or do not want to think about. There is no disciplining them, I can only misdirect them so I don't hurt people.
There is a cure for this medical condition. Anti androgens.
Anti androgens in an xy body with gonads, leaves me susceptible to osteoporosis and severe depression.
There is a cure for that. Estrogen.
Tada. HRT. No sin.
I did not take the Eucharist for many years. It felt wrong, because I felt I was not worthy.
That was, until a long conversation with a learned friend, about how we approach the table, and accept the gifts given. His thinking, turned mine upside down. The scripture talks about worthiness (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). Worthiness is a question of how we approach the table.
By our feeling of not being worthy, we are holding the Eucharist in the highest standing ( and rightly so). We are mentally saying, this is so important! I know I do not measure up! If I (correctly), acknowledge all of my flaws, sins and transgressions, I know I am lacking. I have judged myself, and know the truth of my position.
We are living 1 John 1:9.
We also need to accept 1 John 2:2, or Ephesians 1:7, we need to trust in Gods mercy, in Christ sent for us, who died on the cross for our forgiveness. we sin, and seek forgiveness of them all through Christ. Because we do that we can be forgiven, and partake. Gods grace, makes us worthy.
Take succour in Galations 5:22-26. I trust that it will speak clearly.
Peace be with you.
Sno.
Ps. I do like the translation of the whole of Galatians 5 in the Berean literal version :)
I also grew up in the church at first. From 5-8 my mother was a Sunday school teacher in a Baptist church in Denver. I was in church every Sunday, Monday and Wednesday. Then when my father left when I was 8 my mother went off the rails and began abusing me. Long story short I wound up being raised by the state from 11-18 mostly and didn't go back to church for a long time, but believed in a God that didn't approve of me and would help me if I ever got good enough again. I drank and did a LOT of drugs from 13-53. I went back to church many times in the last 25 years or so and even worked for one as the video guy. I could never seem to tap into that power though. When I got sober last year in a 12 step program, I used the "God of my understanding" model and have found a wonderful and loving power that keeps me sober and guides my steps. This God loves me as I am and I have come out initially as gay and now as trans and he still loves me and keeps the obsession to drink away. 40 years of alcoholic drinking and being in the closet has not been relieved by anything short of a miracle. The only thing I did is surrender and stop fighting. I have stopped trying to understand it and just use it. I don't know if that helps, but is my experience.
Deborah, I distinguish between spirituality and religion. Religion to me is a social/cultural entity and very much the work of humans to try and realize their spirituality. Unfortunately the church - not only the Christian church(es) - in my mind has come down from a history of controlling people and often existing for its own good, not the good of its people.
For my part, having grown up in a family that was Christian with a background in Quakerism, I have found more support for my spirit in Buddhist and Taoist thinking. (I briefly had a go at attending a Quaker meeting and was soon disappointed to learn that the reason that particular meeting was acting so weird was that two members had been engaging in an extramarital affair.)
So where am I going with this? I would have a hard time trying to be spiritual if I were attending a church that was forever denying my sexuality and gender expression. I do my best to forgive the various Christian sects that take on political agendas and threaten my rights and the rights of others. I recognize that these are people interpreting the words of Christ and for the most part I haven't much issue with either those people (I mostly ignore what I consider misguided) and with the scriptures themselves (also written down by humans, and there's enough weird stuff encoded into the Bible for me to know that the various human translators have had their own influences.
All that said, you mentioned revealed religion and transcendence. My one solid point of departure with Judeo-Christian and the words of Islam are that they all AFAIK share this one true God idea and go on to say that those who never receive the word of God are denied heaven.
That always left me wondering, what about people before Christ? About people who live in places that haven't been touched by Christianity, Islam, Hebrew faith? What about people who are clearly good and moral and caring who don't happen to be Christian? What about non-human animals who to me clearly are as moral and caring as any human I know?
So my own belief is that the spark of life, spirit or soul if you prefer is everywhere. Buddhist thought certainly lends to this as do many pagan religions which see the world as populated by a multiplicity of deities. The traditions of those older religions, btw have become very much a part of revealed Christianity and give Christian practice local flavor that has deep roots indeed in the thousands of years of civilization that preceded not only Christ, Hebrew faith and Islam, but also Buddha etc.
I have absolutely no truck with the flap coming from our Christian-centric right wing or the organizations that continue to try to roll back the social progress of the last few decades. I have a cousin who discovered a different Christian faith in his 20s (ca 1977) and joined the Episcopal Church, then elected to move to the Catholic Church as the Episcopal and Anglican churches began to shift on gay marriage and other social issues. I personally see him as misguided and while he is accepting of gays as individuals, he cleaves closely to Catholic views on their 'sinning' and I'm saddened that he supports an organization that would sooner see me damned than admit my humanity.
I don't have any answer for you if you can only hear god through a Christian church - the Episcopals and Unitarians seem like ok branches to me. I do recognize that these places afford a community that can be important to spirituality. I'm fortunate to have a lot of spiritual and deeply thinking people around me and so I do have community to the extent that my aspergian brain is able to relate.
I also learned a long time ago and try to practice that my rational brain has very distinct limitations. It makes me a good engineer and scientist, however allowing myself to be a bit more meditative, to feel and breathe in the world around me in every moment makes me a more creative engineer. I think If I were Christian I would say this is god speaking to me. I find it's easier for me to say that living in the moment allows me to be a better, more moral person.
Quote from: Sno on August 14, 2016, 09:24:30 PM
Take succour in Galations 5:22-26. I trust that it will speak clearly.
Thank you for those thoughts. I did look up all your scriptures to refresh my mind and found the one quoted above particularly useful. In that light it is all very simple.
Quote from: SadieBlake on August 15, 2016, 06:44:34 AM
All that said, you mentioned revealed religion and transcendence. My one solid point of departure with Judeo-Christian and the words of Islam are that they all AFAIK share this one true God idea and go on to say that those who never receive the word of God are denied heaven. . . .
So my own belief is that the spark of life, spirit or soul if you prefer is everywhere.
This touches the heart of where I am right now and where I think I'm headed.
Back when I was a Mormon I believed as they believe. Then when I was a fundamentalist I again believed as they believe. The same when I was an Anglo-Catholic. The reason I kept moving around is because my mind is intensely curious and drives me to learn as much as I can about things I become interested in. So, while it's easy to believe anything at first without close examination, a little thought and study soon reveals where all the gaping holes are. In my mind if God is truth and a theology is full of holes, then that theology is not of God.
So, about ten years ago my thinking began to evolve and I began to adopt some Gnostic ideas. I would not call myself a Gnostic since that name today has some added on connotations that aren't really related to what Christian Gnosticism was in the early Church. And even that early Gnosticism remains largely unknown as most of their writing was destroyed and their teaching suppressed.
If there is a God who is the primal Spirit and who is the source of all light then I think it is correct to say that there is only one true God. However, the Gnostics would say that he is ineffable. Man likes to over define things though and the result is doctrines that limit God to specific locations on earth at specific points in history. I do not accept that.
I do however accept Jesus as the Logos of God, one who is a direct emanation of the ineffable God. What does that mean? I think it's something we do not fully understand so call this the Trinity, or come up with another way of describing it. I don't think our doctrinal definitions are particularly important.
As the Logos of God, Jesus reveals the ineffable one and teaches us how to align ourselves with him. The Gnostics would call that uniting the light of our Spirits with the eternal light which is God.
Nothing in my reading of the Gospel of John or John's letters contradicts that interpretation. I can align it with the rest of the scriptures too, if they are not taken all as literal history.
I know this makes me a heretic to contemporary Christianity. That doesn't really concern me though. The main thing is that we reflect the all encompassing love of God as Jesus taught. That isn't by following a list of rules, but it isn't license for unconstrained conduct either. Any act must be evaluated by the standard of God's light reflected in our Spirit. The Christian word for this I think is being filled with the Holy Spirit. God's light can best be described as perfect, unselfish, and infinite love. So, it seems to me that if one has this light inside them they would just automatically know some things are wrong. Adultery for instance, or murder, or hatred, or enmity. Does it harm someone and is it selfish rather than giving.
Actually, nothing I said there is in any way contrary even to Paul's epistles. However, the Church from an early time, while saying they believed this, felt they needed to add a bunch of written rules on top of it. The Reformers added even more rules. Even Paul did this. Jesus however did not.
To me this makes all makes sense because it doesn't lock God's revelation into a specific period of history or geographic area. Taking everything literally does that and makes it all look very stupid to outsiders. Those are not even my words but the words of St. Augustine 1600 years ago in his book, "The City of God."
As for those whose circumstances are such that they do not know Christianity, I think it is a perversion of God to categorically state that they are all damned. It totally negates the idea of a primal and universal God and reduces him back to the status of the tribal War God of Israel. It's not even necessary to believe this to remain within the bounds of Christianity. As Paul stated,
Rom 2:14-16, "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (RSV2CE)
As for all these others we are not called to judge anyway. Rather we are called to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Matt 19:19. Much of modern Christianity seems to have lost touch with what Jesus taught, preferring the model of their own tribal War God instead.
Anyway, this is where my thinking has evolved to right now. From whatever I can deduce from what I believe God has revealed to me I think I am on the right track.
I agree, you're on the right track - not that my agreement especially bears :-).
My reading today included this. As Lynyrd Skynyrd said a few years ago, "Now Watergate does not bother me, Does your conscience bother you, Tell the truth."
1 John 3:19-24. By this we shall know that we are of the truth, and reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. (RSV2CE)
And in response to all those who run to and fro claiming that they are showing love by telling us their truth while insulting us and denying us basic human dignity I say,
1 John 3:18. Little children, let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth. (RSV2CE)
Claiming the word Love means absolutely nothing unless some actions come out of it.
Hi Deborah,
Totally agree, love is ACTION. It's doing something to express it, and not a cringeworthy word to be shied away from. :)
Blessings.
Sno
Quote from: Deborah on August 19, 2016, 01:55:42 PM
My reading today included this. As Lynyrd Skynyrd said a few years ago, "Now Watergate does not bother me, Does your conscience bother you, Tell the truth."
i had not planned to reply to your thread consider i have read only very little of the bible, and you seem to be much more versed. saw you like lynyrd skynyrd? and had to say ROCK ON c(=
as far as religion i really pray you have found your answers. as for (original post) what other people say what God cares about or does not this all there interpretation of the bible. Jesus Christ loves us all no matter what religion or church. the only prerequisite i was taught by a very christian man we must except his love and forgiveness.
I know this a little late, but I think it's time to for me to deal with this and with the fact that Del did mention some of the things that some of us have gone through, Del is one that knows part of my story and it would have been OK for him to mention it.
I went through a period of time where I felt that God had abandoned me and I really thought it was something I deserved. (I was really messed up at the time)
I was raised Lutheran and went to a Lutheran school. I was that kid that was seen as that little girly boy in the corner and had no friends and the teachers also did the same thing. (I was one of those kid that it was there from the beginning) Never had any friends in high school either. One of the factors that would put me into a compromised position was the fact that every month I would go through about 4-5 days of severe depression. In 1977 I tried a serious attempt at suicide. I downed quite few darvacets got in my car and drove about 180 from the western suburbs of Chicago to the Iowa state border. I have no rational explation as to why I was not picked for impaired driving, why I didn't end up in a ditch or head long into a tree or another car and wound up dead. I have no idea how I got there,once the drugs kicked in I have no memory of any of the drive till I came too at the border.
(So I finally got some help and they put me on anti depressants that in some ways compromised me in some ways mentally and emotionally) 2 people in the next 3 years would so badly affect me in the fact that I believed I was being punished or purged by trails of fire.
One was a woman who I got involved with and I heard those words that I hadn't heard it seemed like for a very time. (I heard those 3 little words "I love you" that Iwas so desperate to hear from some one) I sucked it like a little puppy that had just been patted on it's head and because I was loved staved I just in with both feet. We were going to get married and we moved in together.
At the same time I was working with a guy who happened to be my boss. At first it seemed like 2 friends just going and hanging out together. Turned out he was a gay predator. The first night he sexually assaulted me in his car. He locks the doors and because of the type of dorrs locks you could not opened the door if the power locks were used on the drivers side. After he got done he drove into the middle of a railroad track, while a train was coming and lauched at me with a meniacal laugh and threatened to kill me and also blow up my parents house if I ever told anyone. (I had no clue at that time how I was going to get out of it. I was terrfified of this guy. I was 5' 11" and 125 lbs dripping wet and fully clothed and he was 6" 3" and 250 lbs and just could have very easliy killed me)
She asked to borrow my car and go down to vist some people in Florida. Anyways she said she was going being gone for about a week or so. (She was gone for about 3 weeks and it was about the time I was going to file a report about a stolen car as she didn't called at all time) The night she came both him and her were there together. She came back claiming to have found the Lord and she was going to move out. Sometime that night he told her that if she hadn't come back with the car I was going to file a police repot. (She flipped out and stared verbally abusing me and satrted smacking me around. Being one that was raised that one does not hit a woman I just took it.) At the same time he started doing it too with the verbal abuse and they got in about the meds and how it was making loopy. (That was true they were doing that but the depression was under control) During 4 hours of this he took a knife and sliced my wrist because they both were holding me down. She finally took her stuff and left. He told me he was moving in and he reminded me of his threats.
For the next 3 years he would vebally,mentally and sexually abuse me. (That is the one time in my life I don't remember much of it other then some bits and pieces. (I still have the scars on my wrists) After 3 years he threw me out and I was releaed from it. And because of it I ended with a fear of being lik him because that one of the lies that is promoted that gay people are predators. I had a fear of those who were LGBT and I didn't want to admit that I too was one also even though I am so obivious that I am trans.
It took a long time to fix my thinking and to begin to see that even in the midst of this I could see God's hand in getting me through it even though I ended up going through it. It was never God's doing what they did to me. But it took a long time to recover from it.
Saying that does not mean that what I went through was the worst the any one of us has gone through. There are many that have gone through a whole lot worse. (I am thankful that it didn't end up far worse than what it was)
How this ties into the OP, over the years I can look back and see that 90-95 percent of the mistreatment I did recieve from others were those who claimed to be Christians. At times it made me feel like I just wanted to die, if they didn't love me how could could God. Others times I just wanted to walk away. And no matter how much at times I wanted to chuck the whole thing into the waste basket,something inside just couldn't do it. Even in the times it felt like He was a million miles away and I was just this tiny insect that could just be squashed like a bug.
What happened at times is that scripture passages would be brought to mind and they were the exact passages I needed to hear just at that time,He would speak to me through a song, it would be through someone speaking a kind word or a gentle touch. It was in those times that I knew the source of where it was coming from and I knew then that God was speaking to through others that demonstrated the kind of love He has for us. It wasn't in a loud voice coming from heaven it wasn't in big flashing lights but it was in the small simple little acts of kindness and love.
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 12, 2018, 07:26:19 PM
Saying that does not mean that what I went through was the worst the any one of us has gone through. There are many that have gone through a whole lot worse. (I am thankful that it didn't end up far worse than what it was)
How this ties into the OP, over the years I can look back and see that 90-95 percent of the mistreatment I did recieve from others were those who claimed to be Christians. At times it made me feel like I just wanted to die, if they didn't love me how could could God. Others times I just wanted to walk away. And no matter how much at times I wanted to chuck the whole thing into the waste basket,something inside just couldn't do it. Even in the times it felt like He was a million miles away and I was just this tiny insect that could just be squashed like a bug.
What happened at times is that scripture passages would be brought to mind and they were the exact passages I needed to hear just at that time,He would speak to me through a song, it would be through someone speaking a kind word or a gentle touch. It was in those times that I knew the source of where it was coming from and I knew then that God was speaking to through others that demonstrated the kind of love He has for us. It wasn't in a loud voice coming from heaven it wasn't in big flashing lights but it was in the small simple little acts of kindness and love.
Welcome back! :)
Glad to be back :)
Quote from: Deborah on August 14, 2016, 11:01:16 AM
I would like again to take the Holy Eucharist. However, the best I can make out from its vagaries, by Catholic definition I am in a state of mortal sin for using HRT.
So, believing them and taking it simply sends me to hell.
Or ignoring them removes any reason I have for being a Catholic. By definition, taking communion is a state of coming into perfect union with God and with the Church.
Either way, taking it right now leaves me with a bad feeling.
I realize that what I am referring to is about 2 years old and I hope you are at peace with God more.
some considerations to bear in mind is that you are desiring to have communion with God and the catholic church is teaching that this eucarist becomes the Lord's body and blood when you eat it by transubstantiation. There is nothing
Scriptural about this at all. Jesus said do this in memory of me, not to put Him in your body. I do have a catholic back ground and it is steeped in guilt and shame and I am never able to live up to what is expected, and they don't offer an option. A conversation I had with a priest some years ago showed me he was in a hopeless situation when he told me all he had was the hope of salvation, when Jesus clearly said if you believe in Him, you have salvation and nothing can take it away. Most of the teachings they present are from traditions, not scripture. They have some scriptural basis, but are often twisted around. There is only one sin that is a 'mortal' sin and sends one to hell and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In other words there is no difference in venial or mortal sins as they teach it, but all sin separates us from the presence of God. When Jesus said my God my God, why have you forsaken me, it was because Jesus had become sin, for us, and was separated from the Father, because God cannot be in the presence of sin. Fear not. Jesus took all sin to the cross and put it to death, so that anybody and everybody can be in God, and not be forsake, but
only through Christ. Sin can only be covered by a blood sacrifice of a spotless lamb(foreshadowing of the Christ to come), and that spotless Lamb is Christ the Lord. But, sin is no longer covered, but completely forgiven if you simply believe that Jesus is who He said He is. And though it is a long winded posting I believe it is the only purpose for life, and that is to have communion with and be in God's presence. Sin separated us from God, through Adam's sin and the second Adam(Jesus) reunited us, when he took our sin to the cross.
I plan to keep an eye on this for a bit. It is suggesting a solution for what you perceive the problem to be. This section is not to make a debate of who's God or religion is right, present and works for you. It should be held within the context of Christianity.
Sincerely,
Jacqui
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Cindy
Quote from: Cindy on July 05, 2018, 04:43:31 PM
:police:
I've removed posts that were potentially argumentative and not relevant to the topic. Please feel free to start other topics as required.
If there are issues with posts report them and do not try to moderate the thread yourself.
Thank You
I remind people that:
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2. If a post is of issue report it to the Moderators
Cindy
I believe that you have misunderstood my post. I said that she is not finding her way back home because maybe she doesn't believe in God but she believes in the bible. I also said that some Christian fractions tend to believe in the bible instead of believing in God. I don't see how this is not a Christian belief and thoughts also related to the topic. Christianity is about believing in God as the trinity. So believing in God is a very Christian thing to do and my advice and comment is very much related to Christianity.
reborn,
According to the word of God all of us who are born again Christians and worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth are the betrothed of the Lord awaiting the wedding feast of the Lamb. Some of us just happen to know what being a betrothed awaiting her wedding feels like a little more than some others (cis) born in a male body.
As long as Deborah examines herself and has a clean conscience void of offense before God she can take communion.
Whether straight or gay, cis or trans, the main thing is that we have the word of God as the foundation and authority of our faith.
According to the word of God salvation isn't based on male or female, black or white, gay or straight, cis or trans. It is based on faith in the blood of Jesus and striving to please him regardless of whether we are a babe in Christ or mature in the Lord.
It's sad that so many couldn't care less and look down their nose at others or justify what they want while condemning those who struggle.
The Lord knows her and has been with her.
May God bless.
Dianne