Why is there stealth shaming? Hope its not a dumb question, but still fresh to being FTM (well knowing a term for myself). I noticed on some sites, forums, topics, etc. men are being almost shamed for being stealth or working on going stealth. We spend life savings on surgery to match up our outer shell, to match the male guts, never miss a T-shot to stay the way we feel we should be, exercise to rid of feminine hips pre and post T, opt out of some surgeries because they want make us look male/real enough, or function real enough etc. We spend so much time to transition to be male and be identified as male by others. God forbid some one calls you she who hasn't seen you and is confused? Don't take this wrong I'm listing off how many feel including myself. We don't want to be mis-gendered, don't want to be identified as our birth shells. We shoot to be the men we are or should be and want to pass, and be able to mark M on papers, yet its bad to be stealth. We work our butts off spend thousands to pass and never go back. We fight off dysphoria by transitioning into who we want to be. So why are guys being called out, shamed, and harassed by other FTMs for not wanting to be all foot forward hi I'm FTM! Its individuals choice, and for safety, I see why go stealth, if no one can separate the difference between cis/trans why can't being stealth be okay. Why must a guy disclose he was born female and transitioned into the man you see today. You were always a man, you just have a disorder so why disclose or be shunned for not disclosing you are a transsexual.
I would love to be stealth one day and live as a male with no other knowledge of a past tense of female to others. I'm not openly out or on T yet, I pass sometimes and it feels good when no one questions or hesitates or apologizes for saying sir, mr, bruh, bro, man, etc. I love it. I feel being stealth there wont be a second thought to who I truly am and that's what we all want so why do guys get shamed? I think my music career could ruin going stealth to an extent, but my Aerospace major wont so its like the battle of passion and the idea my music career wont blossom to millions so why give up on the thought?
If you are safely at a point post surgeries, T, etc. why be shammed? Does anyone have a answer on why they shame or why guys are shamed?
Never seen guys being shamed for being stealth. I've seen where guys encourage other guys to be out but never anything berating them if they chose not to.
I'll never be anything other than stealth except to those whom I choose to disclose to. I'm not ashamed. It just gets old after awhile discussing it and being the oddity. It's nobody's business unless I make it their business which isn't often.
I wonder if these guys you're seeing do this are new to transition. That would make sense because maybe they think at this point it makes them edgy or special. After awhile even those who are loud n' proud usually settle down because it gets old after awhile.
I'm stealth simply from the standpoint that it's nobody else's business what my history is. I don't tell people unless they are medical personnel that need to know (ie I didn't disclose for a minor medical procedure done by a doc that didn't know me, nor when I've gone to places for testing, etc), or a potential intimate partner. That's it.
I outed myself once and totally regretted it; all they wanted to know was about my former life as F, which is what I'm trying to totally forget. I also had to out myself at a notary public once shortly after transition, and was given the stink-eye and treated poorly.
So yeah. I have reasons for not wanting to tell everyone I meet that I'm trans.
Jay
I've seen stealth shaming a lot online and even in real life (in the few spaces where I am or was out). Their logic was that by being stealth I am transphobic/perpetuating transphobia. That I am "hiding" because I hate trans people or that I owe it to "the community" to be out and fight transphobia.
I've heard more shaming towards getting bottom surgery than to going stealth.
I think what a lot of guys feel is that there aren't that many people out there who have transition behind them, and are leading their lives like any other guy. It's more often that people know of situations where somebody just came out, or hasn't been in transition for long compared to somebody just living their life like any other guy. Those sort of "success stories" where guys lead averagey lives don't really exist because those guys are stealth.
That's really my only big beef with everybody going stealth. Not the greatest out role models out there.
Haven't seen much stealth shaming personally. Perhaps there's an element of jealousy for some who can't be stealth, I dunno, I don't see that we have to assume trans individuals have to wave a trans flag or something. If we pass and choose to live stealth that's our choice. If we choose to wave a flag then that's our choice too. Both are acceptable. I don't think stealth people let the team down because I think it's good for the world to know that there's trans individuals out there and the only way they'd ever know it is if that individual told them. Puts the ignorant on their toes a little. Some folk just have the idea that all trans women are like OTT drag queens and trans men are just butch and obvious women. But that's far from the case and having a stealth community out there proves that. It's like being in a war, not everyone will fight the same battles, but we all fight for the same team.
Quote from: Nygeel on May 28, 2013, 09:03:47 PM
That's really my only big beef with everybody going stealth. Not the greatest out role models out there.
There is at least a hundred (at least out online) guys on YT. Then there's Ian Harvie, Chaz Bono, Jamison Green, Loren Cameron, Lucas Silveira (lead singer of The Cliks), Malcolm Himschoot, Balian Buschbaum, Rocco Katastrophe, etc. There are PLENTY of transguys out there for the youth to look up to. I'm positive in the next decade there will be even more to hit mainstream media. In the past decade the visibility has skyrocketed.
Not saying that you have but (for this argument's sake), anyone who has shamed a transguy for being stealth because "there aren't enough role models" is blind or just being obnoxious.
Quote from: Simon on May 28, 2013, 08:11:11 PM
Never seen guys being shamed for being stealth. I've seen where guys encourage other guys to be out but never anything berating them if they chose not to.
I'll never be anything other than stealth except to those whom I choose to disclose to. I'm not ashamed. It just gets old after awhile discussing it and being the oddity. It's nobody's business unless I make it their business which isn't often.
I wonder if these guys you're seeing do this are new to transition. That would make sense because maybe they think at this point it makes them edgy or special. After awhile even those who are loud n' proud usually settle down because it gets old after awhile.
Stealth shaming is rampant on Facebook trans groups. The guys I've seen doing this are definitely not new to transition. They've been transitioning/transitioned for longer than even I have. I see a lot of it being that they think that stealth men don't think trans men are real men. I mean those were legitimately their words. Or that we are "hiding who we really are" by being stealth. I'm really a man, so I don't see how living my life as a man is hiding. Nor do I see how that means I think trans men aren't real men. I see living stealth as keeping my private medical history just that, my private medical history.
I see a part of it as they don't view themselves as real men and that's why they feel the need to be so loud and open about it, or they don't want to lose that part of them that makes them seem special.
I think that those who want and can be open, it's good, but I understand reasons for being stealth too. I think if you aren't entirely binary it's easier to be open, as I don't feel that I am entirely "man"-- though male yes. There are safety reasons as well. To me we are all brothers whether or not we are out or stealth. IMO, though there is actually a bit of a difference in the way open and stealth people see the world. I have definitely noticed this on the board here, but not shaming. I have to stretch myself to see it and I would guess that people have to stress to see why I'd be out. I feel that there is actually some difference in how we view being transgender.
OTOH, I did a video on why I am out, and didn't get any negative comments on it. I think people understand (and I was clear to state it) that I feel it is my decision.
I think it is important for *some* people to be out and more people than there are now, but that, I think, is probably going to happen.
BTW, there is a list of the 100 most influential trans people and there could be many more names on it, imo.
--Jay
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on May 28, 2013, 10:12:56 PM
I'm really a man, so I don't see how living my life as a man is hiding. Nor do I see how that means I think trans men aren't real men. I see living stealth as keeping my private medical history just that, my private medical history.
I see a part of it as they don't view themselves as real men and that's why they feel the need to be so loud and open about it, or they don't want to lose that part of them that makes them seem special.
Stop the presses...me and Wheat agree on something, lol.
I think like you do. This is a medical condition that I am correcting. However, as you're probably aware there are guys who see this as their identity. A lot of their lives in wrapped up in the fact that they are transsexuals, and that is fine. Whatever floats their boats.
I like being open with other trans people but not in the cis world. I respect those who think differently no matter how they want to conduct their lives but they have no reason to down those on the other side of things.
Now I kinda want to check out the trans groups on FB but I don't have a FB set up for trans stuff yet.
Quote from: Simon on May 28, 2013, 10:04:54 PM
There is at least a hundred (at least out online) guys on YT. Then there's Ian Harvie, Chaz Bono, Jamison Green, Loren Cameron, Lucas Silveira (lead singer of The Cliks), Malcolm Himschoot, Balian Buschbaum, Rocco Katastrophe, etc. There are PLENTY of transguys out there for the youth to look up to. I'm positive in the next decade there will be even more to hit mainstream media. In the past decade the visibility has skyrocketed.
Not saying that you have but (for this argument's sake), anyone who has shamed a transguy for being stealth because "there aren't enough role models" is blind or just being obnoxious.
You just gave the names of a few guys I feel aren't good role models.
Quote from: Nygeel on May 28, 2013, 10:50:16 PM
You just gave the names of a few guys I feel aren't good role models.
Just because they're not ideal for you doesn't mean they wouldn't be for someone else.
On a side note, the very first transguy I seen was Loren Cameron in the back of a Advocate magazine in either '96 or '97. I may or may not be a fan of his but his visibility raised awareness to a young kid in the South who never knew transition was an option. The visibility is what matters just as much as the message...and there is plenty of visibility these days.
My role models are all cis guys (not on purpose).
Personally, I think success stories are good to balance out all the bad stuff we hear about, but forcing someone to be out would be one of those bad things. Did that make sense?
Quote from: Simon on May 28, 2013, 10:57:33 PM
Just because they're not ideal for you doesn't mean they wouldn't be for someone else.
On a side note, the very first transguy I seen was Loren Cameron in the back of a Advocate magazine in either '96 or '97. I may or may not be a fan of his but his visibility raised awareness to a young kid in the South who never knew transition was an option. The visibility is what matters just as much as the message...and there is plenty of visibility these days.
I meant good role models in general.
Quote from: Edge on May 28, 2013, 11:03:02 PM
My role models are all cis guys (not on purpose).
Personally, I think success stories are good to balance out all the bad stuff we hear about, but forcing someone to be out would be one of those bad things. Did that make sense?
Makes perfect sense.
I also don't have any trans role models and never have. There are trans guys I would like to meet and possible befriend but all of the men I would like to be like are cis.
To me that is the whole purpose of being trans. To get to the point where I am comfortable with myself in cis society. To blend in and I'm almost there. Once my top is done and the final few pieces of paper are taken care of next year I'll be where I have always wanted to be. I know bottom is probably five years away but I'll eventually get there too.
Quote from: Nygeel on May 28, 2013, 11:05:49 PM
I meant good role models in general.
I know what you meant but all of the guys I mentioned aren't bad guys. They're not druggies or criminals. They just have different ideals than you do, but that doesn't mean their thinking won't mesh with someone else out there looking for a trans role model.
As one of you guys mentioned. Its not so much on this forum actually I've witnessed none on here, its a safe haven for me being so new. I don't feel ashamed or dumb when I say something incorrect, I'm not kicked under a bus for being pre t and already talking going stealth, I get humor and humility out of you men and our sisters, this place is nice and supportive, but other social outlets and forums not so much. I thank all of you for the comfort I get here.
The shaming has come from guys who are old cats at this downing other old cats and new or pre T's. Its like an entitlement thing. They feel entitled to see how he does it? How is the girl he wanted for years from a far falling for him, how is he patted on the back and wrestling with other guys? Entitlement to see how is phallo looks on transbucket, but he doesn't post because he feels like a male with a disorder or awful now cured disease, who need not tote it around.
I don't mind informing anonymously the knowledge I've gained or showing what could be, if my phalloplasty could show guys that they do not look bad, they function, aren't just a rolled up meat pocket, but outside of anonymity online no thank you. No seminar for me or outing myself when I feel there is nothing to out. I mean I'm a man just like a cis or trans male.
I think its said some of our brothers have that inside them to down someone who has been through the struggle of transition, acceptance, and living, be happy they came out on the other end and they've done all they can do to stop their dysphoria no shun/shame them. We are going for the same thing not to be a sub gender but male. To fix a disorder. It just sickens/saddens me pre-T that this is what I may face and have faced for saying already. I want deny a trans brother or sub him cause hes not stealth but we all know the struggle why the bs.
Quote from: Dark.Knight on May 28, 2013, 11:41:06 PM
As one of you guys mentioned. Its not so much on this forum actually I've witnessed none on here, its a safe haven for me being so new. I don't feel ashamed or dumb when I say something incorrect, I'm not kicked under a bus for being pre t and already talking going stealth, I get humor and humility out of you men and our sisters, this place is nice and supportive, but other social outlets and forums not so much. I thank all of you for the comfort I get here.
The shaming has come from guys who are old cats at this downing other old cats and new or pre T's. Its like an entitlement thing. They feel entitled to see how he does it? How is the girl he wanted for years from a far falling for him, how is he patted on the back and wrestling with other guys? Entitlement to see how is phallo looks on transbucket, but he doesn't post because he feels like a male with a disorder or awful now cured disease, who need not tote it around.
I don't mind informing anonymously the knowledge I've gained or showing what could be, if my phalloplasty could show guys that they do not look bad, they function, aren't just a rolled up meat pocket, but outside of anonymity online no thank you. No seminar for me or outing myself when I feel there is nothing to out. I mean I'm a man just like a cis or trans male.
I think its said some of our brothers have that inside them to down someone who has been through the struggle of transition, acceptance, and living, be happy they came out on the other end and they've done all they can do to stop their dysphoria no shun/shame them. We are going for the same thing not to be a sub gender but male. To fix a disorder. It just sickens/saddens me pre-T that this is what I may face and have faced for saying already. I want deny a trans brother or sub him cause hes not stealth but we all know the struggle why the bs.
I am 100 percent stealth. My family knows, my lover knows and thats it. I have experienced this "stealth shaming". There was a bit of it in a post a month back about the label "transgender" I told guys i was completely stealth and that I thought that sometimes people running around screaming about being "transgender" can be a detriment to trannsexuals. The argument didnt really get anywhere other than "ive stated my opinion, goodbye" But I was asked why I was on this forum if I didnt identify as transsexual.
Anyway I think the shaming comes form two places - a twinge of jelousy and a feeling of betrayal. Some guys feel like they could never be stealth, and some guys probably will never be stealth no matter how hard they try. Be it physical differences, financial or interpersonal reasons. The betrayal part is this silly notion that it is somehow my job to educate the world about transsexuality. Fortuneately for me, it's not. If someone is rambling on about how disgusting 'trannies' are I usually tell them "Hey, if it makes that person more comfortable, then it's ok with me".
As far as the phallo thing. I have experienced lots of pre surgery guys feeling like it is somehow my responsibility to share photographs of my genitals. No thanks hefe. My dick looks great, passes in a locker room (although lots of comments/stares/attention since it is large for a flaccid penis). I did post pictures up in another group, but I took them down. I dont want my dick floating around as an example of an ftm phalloplasty.
I think in the end we all just make the best deicisions possible. I spent time, money and emotions to be that "kinda buff guy with a beard" not "that guy who used to be a girl'. My choice. I dont actually care if people respect it. We all have parts of our lives that we dont share, this one is mine.
Quote from: chuck on May 29, 2013, 12:27:05 AMAs far as the phallo thing. I have experienced lots of pre surgery guys feeling like it is somehow my responsibility to share photographs of my genitals. No thanks hefe.
What? You don't want to share your private parts with the whole world? what a shocker! Sorry I'm being sarcastic. It's just odd how many people think trans* people's genitals are somehow less private than anyone else's genitals. It's your body. You decide who to show it to.
DK, You are pre-T and stealth. Now I am really impressed!
--Jay
Seeing more phallo results would give some guys a little more hope about surgical options.
Quote from: Nygeel on May 29, 2013, 01:04:22 AM
Seeing more phallo results would give some guys a little more hope about surgical options.
The problem is that so many people out there mock and judge bottom surgery results, that no one wants to share them. If everyone shared them, they'd probably see how good and normal they look.
Lately I've been thinking really hard about that. Once I have phallo, i feel like i'd have no problem showing people my junk, it's not a privacy issue for me. My problem is that fear that there will be a bunch of transguys who will see it (who probably haven't even seen an actual dick, or one outside of porn) and will make fun of it. But I know there are so many guys I know would benefit from seeing more results especially since Dr. Crane is new to the game.
Quote from: Nygeel on May 29, 2013, 01:04:22 AM
Seeing more phallo results would give some guys a little more hope about surgical options.
There are pics out there; you just have to know where to look. But I agree that MORE pics would be nice.
I've seen stealth shaming on this very site, but it didn't last long.
I have also been taken to task IRL for not being openly trans and active in the local community. FWIW, one guy who was lecturing me has a rep as an attention-seeker. He also didn't know that I was acting as a mod here, making small monetary contributions to the TLC, and helping out a couple of trans guys I know (with small loans and the like). I also educate cis people without outing myself.
I think those things count for something. But even if I didn't do them, my stealth life is MY FREAKING BUSINESS, and anyone who tries to shame me now will have to listen to a great deal of inelegant invective from me. My life, my choices. I've paid my dues and suffered enough. Do not try to tell me how to live my life.
Quote from: Arch on May 29, 2013, 01:34:57 AM
There are pics out there; you just have to know where to look. But I agree that MORE pics would be nice.
Ftm-portal.net also have some pictures of it. but I dont know if there the same as on transbucket?
-----------
Dark.knightWell, For me it seams as something who goes both ways in the comunetys.
Stealth people are being jugded and so is people who arn't steath. Just reading this thread is a pretty good prof, we read on how stealth people are being discriminated and yet have comments that everyone not stealth is "someone whos waving around with a transflag all the time."
I don't identify stealth, neither do I like the term "out and proud" because people impliy that im going around screaming TRANS FREEDOM!! every 5 second.
For me the tearm out, stealth & open, depends from person to person and in diffrent degrees, its true if your non-passable or if your not binary to a certain point its pretty difficult not to be steath, but if you pass then it became more of a choice for you how open or how stealth you want to be, I see it as a personal limits who depends from each person and which each person have to figure out themself.
I do not go around telling everyone I am trans, I simple do not have time or energy to educate the whole world as a fulltime job, neither is it always the best or safest thing to do, but if I feel it relevant I want to be able to tell other that im trans, as a part of me like any other part of my life, it all depends on people or the topic and thats how I feel best because it important for me, not just a part like other parts who made me somehow who I am today, but its also a part of my political view, my way of thinking, and my friends. So for people who get to know me to a certain degree it can be troublesome if there not accepting of this facts that I am trans or have trans friends.
I don't have a problem with people being stealth alone for that fact.
some of the people here said theres jelousy invold, I personally can't relate to that but maybe some feel that way IDK, I feel its more of a cultural gap.
For me it seams theres diffrent problems invold in the whole- open/stealth thing.
first of all:
for stealth people they often can't/won't go into activatys who suport transgender rights, or its more difficult for them to do so.
Somethimes those are understandable for me so I forgive them, othertimes I can get annoyed. I have a exemples: I where to plan a demonstration so that transgenders could get homones safely, but many transgender didnt show up. they had to be stealth and neutral because if they made fuss the doctors who where agenst them and the media could make there life hell, I understood there choices but in the end we had to cancel the demonstration because it ment there where too few people, and transgenders are still suffering under the threatment we have now. Even when one of my friends who is stealth didnt show up on understandable reasons I still felt very frustrated because if we had been enought we might could had changed things which didnt happent. this dosent just infect me it pretty much infects every transgender in the country :( and I cant feel after I started doing activism that I do care more on what people do than I did before.
this helping thing isnt JUST stealth people. there are stealth people who helps in there way on diffrent things, theres also open people who dont really do anything. But as I mention I belive it to be more difficult for someone who is stealth to help because it gets more limited in some ways.
the whole, we help each other culture is pretty strong in some countrys, I guess those countrys who have most hate and discrimination towards transgender also has strongest comunetys, yet they also has the most drama if someone ex goes stealth and dont show up anymore. I dont know 100% about that but it just a feeling I get.
other problems being invold is the gap between being open and being steaht, where one is open to be discriminated and another is kept safe, abit like in gay relationships where one is out and another is in. Luckely I havent experience problems with it, but I had got into situations where I felt akward cause I was unsure on how much I should tell about my friends.
the biggest issue as I see, is the prejugde that all stealth people are ignorant, which isnt nessesarry true.
I do have sthealt friends who hang around other trans friends who is non binary and do not have any problems.
something who annoyes me is people who is stealth who want to just be normal and casual so much that they cut out every trans thing. They dont want to be seen around other transpeople. and they think transgenders who is out, or who isnt exactly as themself are bad exemples because they do not represent themself.
Those types annoyes me alot.
------------------------------
taking all those things together, we get situations where stealth people bash non stealth transgender and transgenders who is out bash stealth people. Somethimes for there prejugdes, something Not for being out/stealth but for something who is followed by/belived to be followed by.
I hope all my text made sense.
Yeah it makes sense.
I think it's our lives and our bodies, so it's our choice how we live them and who we share them with. If people want to be out, great. If people want to be stealth, that's fine too. If people want to show their surgeries and stuff, I'm certainly not complaining. If people don't want to show their surgeries and stuff, that is totally fine as well and to force them to would be wrong. I may be naïve, but support of trans rights doesn't necessarily require one to be out right?
As a few others have said, there's a lot of trans people out there now. So trans people know transition is definitely possible, they have a lot of narratives and resources. My story isn't unique. I can't see it helping anyone.
And besides, to be honest, some of the trans community behaves really negatively towards other trans people. I don't want to be associated with that because I think it's terrible. It sounds horrible of me to say, but it's true and it's how I feel.
Quote from: Edge on May 29, 2013, 12:15:37 PM
Yeah it makes sense.
I think it's our lives and our bodies, so it's our choice how we live them and who we share them with. If people want to be out, great. If people want to be stealth, that's fine too. If people want to show their surgeries and stuff, I'm certainly not complaining. If people don't want to show their surgeries and stuff, that is totally fine as well and to force them to would be wrong. I may be naïve, but support of trans rights doesn't necessarily require one to be out right?
no, alot of suport is simple, as least how I see it.
things like standing up for someone ells, giving a advice to someone, or signing a petition who suports rights, are pretty simple to do without nessesarry being out, cisgenders can do so as well.
the things I mention which can be more tricky to do if your stealth is bigger things, ex joining demonstrations, debating in media of any kinds, suport metting specially for famely members or relatives can also be somehow tricky to keep stealth in.
------
Quote from: Prof HB on May 29, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
As a few others have said, there's a lot of trans people out there now. So trans people know transition is definitely possible, they have a lot of narratives and resources. My story isn't unique. I can't see it helping anyone.
help is many things,
Simply writting/talking to someone who need someone to talk to is a help.
Quote from: Nygeel on May 28, 2013, 10:50:16 PM
You just gave the names of a few guys I feel aren't good role models.
I saw this post and I couldn't help but think...I hope one of them isn't Jamison Green. I've always felt that he was a kind, respectable man. Don't diss Jamison. :P
Quote from: Prof HB on May 29, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
As a few others have said, there's a lot of trans people out there now. So trans people know transition is definitely possible, they have a lot of narratives and resources. My story isn't unique. I can't see it helping anyone.
And besides, to be honest, some of the trans community behaves really negatively towards other trans people. I don't want to be associated with that because I think it's terrible. It sounds horrible of me to say, but it's true and it's how I feel.
This.
I don't believe everyone has a duty to educate other trans* people or the general public. If you want to, great, but you don't have to. Transition is very personal and everyone does something different. It's ridiculous to assume that everyone has to stay "in the community" after they complete transition in order to educate or help people if they don't want to. No one is owed anything. Prof HB is right, with hundreds of trans dudes on youtube, tumblr and susan's itself there is a ton of resources out there. A LOT more than even 5 years ago. The trans community needs to let people be themselves and stop policing how other people IDENTIFY, how they see their trans status and whether or not they want to be stealth.
Interesting topic
This has already been said before but part of it I think is jealousy . Some guys for whatever reason may not be able to be stealth and therefore hope to look to other non-stealth guys as leaders and to help them cope. I would think that the more guys go stealth-the harder it is for the non-stealth guy.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on May 29, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
The trans community needs to let people be themselves and stop policing how other people IDENTIFY, how they see their trans status and whether or not they want to be stealth.
That reminds me of a conversation I had a week or so ago with a well known guy on YT who has a video encouraging other transmen to "come out" in their communities. I mentioned to him that I know a lot of people who have no idea about me and after being stealth for so long it's really not in my best interest. I did mention that I don't mind discussing things with cis people online or befriending other trans folks online or IRL.
His response to me was he understands that not everyone is capable of being out in their communities but that is what is really going to change things for the better. People tend to gain empathy for situations when it's someone they personally know. He did also say he never said it was going to be easy and in fact it's pretty f'ing hard.
I left him with the final thought because I wasn't in the mood for a long drawn out debate. It did make me wonder though, why this guy who is post transition, married, and has a new baby bothers to complicate his life so much? Him saying, "It's pretty f'ing hard" tells me that he isn't enjoying his notoriety. It's almost like he is begrudgingly being a spokesman for the trans community when there is no need for him to do so. He looks 100% cis. It's not as if someone is holding a gun to his head so where does this sense of duty come from?
I don't have the same sense of duty to the trans community. I'm a private person. Now if any guys lived around me I'd be more than willing to meet up, go fishing, fire up the grill, or maybe even set up a camping trip if there were enough of us. There is a common bond there. I think it's good to be open to each other and stay that way. It helps the new guys and it helps the old ones remember where they came from. I'm not into educating the cis gender world though. If you are then more power to you. Don't down me for not being willing to though.
Quote from: Simon on May 29, 2013, 04:47:58 PM
That reminds me of a conversation I had a week or so ago with a well known guy on YT who has a video encouraging other transmen to "come out" in their communities. I mentioned to him that I know a lot of people who have no idea about me and after being stealth for so long it's really not in my best interest. I did mention that I don't mind discussing things with cis people online or befriending other trans folks online or IRL.
His response to me was he understands that not everyone is capable of being out in their communities but that is what is really going to change things for the better. People tend to gain empathy for situations when it's someone they personally know. He did also say he never said it was going to be easy and in fact it's pretty f'ing hard.
I left him with the final thought because I wasn't in the mood for a long drawn out debate. It did make me wonder though, why this guy who is post transition, married, and has a new baby bothers to complicate his life so much? Him saying, "It's pretty f'ing hard" tells me that he isn't enjoying his notoriety. It's almost like he is begrudgingly being a spokesman for the trans community when there is no need for him to do so. He looks 100% cis. It's not as if someone is holding a gun to his head so where does this sense of duty come from?
I don't have the same sense of duty to the trans community. I'm a private person. Now if any guys lived around me I'd be more than willing to meet up, go fishing, fire up the grill, or maybe even set up a camping trip if there were enough of us. There is a common bond there. I think it's good to be open to each other and stay that way. It helps the new guys and it helps the old ones remember where they came from. I'm not into educating the cis gender world though. If you are then more power to you. Don't down me for not being willing to though.
I agree. I know well known people in the trans community and they also aren't thrilled with people "looking up to them" They think it's weird/funny. But I think you're right. People need to stop pushing people to come out, be a spokesman or be visible. We all have a right to our bodies and we all have a right as to how we handle transition.
Quote from: Sebb on May 29, 2013, 03:33:31 PM
I saw this post and I couldn't help but think...I hope one of them isn't Jamison Green. I've always felt that he was a kind, respectable man. Don't diss Jamison. :P
Don't think anybody would diss Jamison. Perhaps they might be talking about Chaz Bono? I think he has said things which to me wouldn't seem like anything to brag about. I am actually pretty happy with the people in my own community, so I am pretty happy to be associated with them.
But no, everybody would not need to come out. I feel that there is a difference in how "out" and "stealth" people view being trans in a lot of cases. We just need to respect each others positions and recognize each other as brothers.
--Jay
I did not think my post would get much attention or input, but I'm glad it did so I can see what other men think and is going on.
I'm very private I left my home town/state to a place I know no one and miles from family. I'm with my girlfriend and thats it. So I'm very private not anti social or distant at all, but a big part of me packed up so I could transition. To the guy that said he was amazed I was stealth, I think you misunderstood what I had typed I'm working on being stealth not quite there, I'm in a college town in TX and my next move in a couple months is to a new big city in this foreign state of Texas. I'm taking the town I'm in to figure out how to go stealth what to wear how to bind keeping my voice deep and my facial hair growth etc. I've almost figured it out and get called sir about 90% of the time so its working out for me. Once I move to H-Town I will keep as stealth as possible expect in need no bases, that will be hard without matching paperwork, so I guess its not quite stealth since some must know. With general public, co-workers, and class mates I'm the new man on campus so...Soon but not yet am I stealth.
If its not online I avoid trans LGBT things. I'm not an activist nor do I want to be a spokesman EVER. For my safety, professional career, and future children I will be stealth. Because I feel like my genitals should not be slapped in a slideshow or on everyones tumblr with likes and comments about how large my bio man is before anything. Nope not for me! Will I do it without my name or face on it, maybe, to educate but not really interested in that either. I'll let the guys who feel the need to or desire to to do it, but this guys is all male and always will be.
Others should stop pushing stealth men to come out...I am the Dark Knight you need not know my true identity lol
I'll sign your petition and support what I believe is right for this community but I'm doing it as a human being not a sub gender.
Not waving a i'm trans flag, but as a supportive person.
Another thing once I'm stealth I want to drain out that female body (duh) female past( blah.) I want to be stealth because it cures my dysphhoria. That's why I'm on this journey to cure this dysphoria. To keep as that "FTM" would be detrimental to my treatment and for me a notch above being that stud/butch/wo-men (I never identified as that when I didn't know a name for my disease) You guys get my point?
I met a guy early in transition who calls himself the most out stealth trans man there is. Meaning in the trans community he is out and proud and willing to help other brothers. It was hugely helpful for me to meet him prior to transition so I could see what the effects of T would be 8 years down the road. The fact that he looked like a cis-male was huge for me; I had visions of looking like an ugly hairy woman for the rest of my life, LOL.
He is also stealth, because in his every day life, he is not out to many of his friends, coworkers, and acquaintances. Kind of like how I am. I have ties to the trans community locally, so if someone wants to contact me they can; however in my regular life I am male and do not disclose, ever
Jay
As far as genital shaming, most of the post-op phallo pics out there are very soon post op. Pictures after all of the stages are complete and things are healed are less common. If I were younger and richer I'd probably get a phallo. That said, people diss metas all the time. Heck, I'd rather have a 1" dick that I can pee through (that does get bigger when hard) than no dick and a hole. Yes, I'd like a good 3" soft and 6" hard dick like any cis-man, but reality is there are guys with tiny dicks out there (I've dated 2 of them). The first small one I encountered was so small soft it was the size of a child's (not kidding, it was hard for me to get into at first because it was as small as my 5 year olds soft) and didn't get much bigger hard (4" and very thin). The other was 1.5 soft with average girth, but only 3.5 hard. So yeah, I'm still smaller than they are, but they deal, I deal. I have good sensation and orgasms, I can pee through my fly, and that's huge for me.
I wish people wouldn't discount it, because it's not 'ideal.' But heck, even cis-men can be born without dicks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/18/andrew-wardle-man-born-without-penis-slept-100-women-pictures_n_2899285.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/18/andrew-wardle-man-born-without-penis-slept-100-women-pictures_n_2899285.html)
Quote from: sneakersjay on May 28, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
I'm stealth simply from the standpoint that it's nobody else's business what my history is.
This is exactly how i feel. It's no ones business and I'm transitioning to be male not to be FTM.
I agree with many on this thread, I'm completely stealth at work and in classes because it's irrelevant and just not anyone's business about my past. However I find some of the opinions people have posted on those who choose to be out pretty disappointing. We're in a thread about not shaming people and yet people are saying stuff like out guys just need to feel "special" or only want others to come out because of jealousy? Come on. It's not at all about being special, in fact it's the opposite. The point of coming out to the people in your life is that they know you're a regular person, so by finding out your status, they realize that trans guys are just average guys.
I chose stealth because I hate how people treat me differently after they find out. I hate how people think of us as something other than male. But what if people didn't have these misconceptions? What if we didn't have to be stealth because everyone accepted trans men as men? I think that would be a better world. That's the world that those who are out are fighting for and those people should be recognized and thanked, not belittled.
I want to be stealth to the point where I'm really put off coming out before next September now that I've found out there's a 90% chance of me being at the same college as I was this year as female then. Being known as a trans man doesn't appeal to me at all. I've never really identified as trans, it's just a term which describes why I've always felt male when my body told a different story, and a pathway to understanding that what I felt as my gender was maleness. The only time I've been inclined to be out is on the internet, solely because that's what I'm used to on here, because the majority of the time I'm either on here, tumblr, or youtube, and all three are trans related. Then I thought about it and realised that fountain pens have no relevance to whether or not I'm cis, and neither they, nor I, gain anything from them knowing that irritating fact about my body and birth certificate.
If people want to be out about it, to whatever degree, I don't care either. People can do what they like. Part of me wishes people weren't out for fear that it will out me one day because of my scars, or fear of that happening will push me towards getting peri (I think I'm borderline) which I don't really want for various reasons, but that's not something I'm going to take out on an individual, or shame them for. Having people who are out has pros and cons, and that's pretty much the only con, and a selfish one at that, having more visability will help others considerably more, both in terms of cis understanding, and trans people realising they're not freaks or alone, and there's help out there.
Quote from: Chamillion on May 30, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
We're in a thread about not shaming people and yet people are saying stuff like out guys just need to feel "special" or only want others to come out because of jealousy?
Maybe some of what guys have said on this topic has been a little harsh but I guess they figure turnabout is fair play. As much as those who are open and proud of being trans wonder why the stealth guys are "hiding" we wonder what they're getting out of what they do. Not saying their is anything wrong with it, but they have to be enjoying what they're doing or they wouldn't be doing it.
As far as the guys who aren't stealth because they can't be, that's very few and far between. I have never seen a transguy who is 5 years or so on T not pass flawlessly. I think the overrated notion that "one year on T" makes everyone pass is harmful to some guys. I feel awful for guys who have been on T a few years and still get misgendered. Those are the guys who have beach ball sized cojones and not the boys who look like they stepped out of a A&F catalog a year into transition. Those guys have my utmost respect as I know they take the majority of the crap out there.
Quote from: Chamillion on May 30, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
I chose stealth because I hate how people treat me differently after they find out. I hate how people think of us as something other than male. But what if people didn't have these misconceptions?
Even if people didn't have misconceptions I'm pretty certain I would still just identify as male. To me, I am doing this to live my life comfortably as a man. I wouldn't want to identify myself as a transguy in society regardless of how it was perceived. Right now if I wanted to be open with people I would, no matter what their reactions would be. I would be doing it for myself...as I have done all of this just for me.
Quote from: Chamillion on May 30, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
I agree with many on this thread, I'm completely stealth at work and in classes because it's irrelevant and just not anyone's business about my past. However I find some of the opinions people have posted on those who choose to be out pretty disappointing. We're in a thread about not shaming people and yet people are saying stuff like out guys just need to feel "special" or only want others to come out because of jealousy? Come on. It's not at all about being special, in fact it's the opposite. The point of coming out to the people in your life is that they know you're a regular person, so by finding out your status, they realize that trans guys are just average guys.
I chose stealth because I hate how people treat me differently after they find out. I hate how people think of us as something other than male. But what if people didn't have these misconceptions? What if we didn't have to be stealth because everyone accepted trans men as men? I think that would be a better world. That's the world that those who are out are fighting for and those people should be recognized and thanked, not belittled.
I dont feel the need to be thanked for or recognized for receiving treatment for a medical condition. Also, I disagree with your assumption that people "have to be stealth" because they worry they wouldnt be accepted as men. I could personally not give less a fak about whether some one thinks I am a man. I fail to see how that assumption is any more valid or logical than assuming someone is jelous that they cant be stealth.
What if when I was constipated I could be open about it? What if I didnt have to keep my bowel movements secret because everyone saw constipated people as regular people? I think that would be a better world.
I just think its private. Yes, the people that are "out and trans" are making the world better for themselves, and for other out and trans people who want to talk about it. And honestly, good for them. That's great. They can work on encouraging non gender conformist to have an easier life. And I even agree that people should have free gender expression. But I find the belittling and insults come from both sides. Out people sometimes see themselves as gender heros, and then look down on those who choose to not share there genitals with the world.
I can also see that it works the other way. Stealth people can be just as unkind to out people.
anyway, i think the bottom line is that everyone should do whats best for themselves. I come on here and a few other boards in order to help other bros. I have nothing to say about my medical experience to the rest of the world. I am here to help and offer advice to my brothers. I have Lots of desire to dialogue with those who are going through the same thing I went through. I dont feel like you have to be 'out' to 'make the world a better place'
To each their own, really. Some guys are out and proud of it, which is wonderful for them so long as it keeps them happy. Others want to disassociate themselves as much as possible with the F, which is also wonderful for them so long as it keeps them happy. It's sad that people are criticized for their decision either way, because really it's no one's right to decide but their own. There are pros and cons to each- for example, being out and a successful person gives younger guys an answer that it's not a death sentence to be trans, and can allow for increased influence and support in the public eye. On the other hand, having people see you as just cis allows for a normal life without your female-bodied past following you, which is also really nice.
As much as I'd love to advocate for our rights as a transguy, the desire to be free of my past living under the guise of a girl once and for all is too overwhelming. I'm stealth to a fair amount of people in my school (big school, makes it possible to do that) and it's lovely not to be bothered with any sort of pronoun slipups or usage of my birthname or half-exclusion from participating in a conversation because it's a bunch of teenage guys discussing very male-specific things. The full inclusion and assumption of maleness without poking around for information on my "real" name or "real" sex is what makes me happy, for someone else the opposite could be true if they don't have such crippling dysphoria or have grown comfortable with what they have.
Two shiny coppers in the bucket for you guys.
Quote from: chuck on May 30, 2013, 05:58:51 PM
I dont feel the need to be thanked for or recognized for receiving treatment for a medical condition. Also, I disagree with your assumption that people "have to be stealth" because they worry they wouldnt be accepted as men. I could personally not give less a fak about whether some one thinks I am a man. I fail to see how that assumption is any more valid or logical than assuming someone is jelous that they cant be stealth.
What if when I was constipated I could be open about it? What if I didnt have to keep my bowel movements secret because everyone saw constipated people as regular people? I think that would be a better world.
I just think its private. Yes, the people that are "out and trans" are making the world better for themselves, and for other out and trans people who want to talk about it. And honestly, good for them. That's great. They can work on encouraging non gender conformist to have an easier life. And I even agree that people should have free gender expression. But I find the belittling and insults come from both sides. Out people sometimes see themselves as gender heros, and then look down on those who choose to not share there genitals with the world.
I can also see that it works the other way. Stealth people can be just as unkind to out people.
anyway, i think the bottom line is that everyone should do whats best for themselves. I come on here and a few other boards in order to help other bros. I have nothing to say about my medical experience to the rest of the world. I am here to help and offer advice to my brothers. I have Lots of desire to dialogue with those who are going through the same thing I went through. I dont feel like you have to be 'out' to 'make the world a better place'
I'm not saying that people deserve to be thanked for fixing a medical condition. I'm saying that those who out themselves with the intent of educating other people, even though it's not an easy thing to do, deserve to be thanked. I have huge respect for activism of all kinds. And no, you don't have to be out to make the world a better place. I don't know why you would think I'm saying that.
I didn't make the assumption that everyone who's stealth is doing it because of people's misconceptions; I stated that is why I personally am stealth. However, it applies to many. Anyone who is stealth because it's an easier way of life is stealth for this reason. It's easier because you avoid the negativity.
Your constipation remark is irrelevant. People DO have weird ideas about us and when they realize that the regular guy they know is a trans guy, their ideas change. This is how homosexuality has become much more accepted; most people know an openly gay person now and realize they're just people. Telling someone that you're constipated would not have this effect as most people experience it at some point and don't have misconceptions about people going through it. You mocking me was pretty rude but if you made a good point I would have been fine with it.
I agree everyone needs to do what is best for themselves. That is what I stated in my post. I was not attacking stealth people, in fact, I am mostly stealth as I said. I was simply expressing disapproval for some of the negative comments I had seen. If I had seen it coming from the other side, I would also disapprove.
Quote from: Simon on May 30, 2013, 05:38:02 PM
Even if people didn't have misconceptions I'm pretty certain I would still just identify as male. To me, I am doing this to live my life comfortably as a man. I wouldn't want to identify myself as a transguy in society regardless of how it was perceived. Right now if I wanted to be open with people I would, no matter what their reactions would be. I would be doing it for myself...as I have done all of this just for me.
It's not that I'd identify myself as a trans guy specifically. Describing myself as a trans guy is similar to describing myself as an American guy, to me. I am neither proud nor ashamed of either one. They are adjectives that describe me and don't make me better or worse than other guys. So it's not that it's a big part of my identity, but on occasion things get brought up and it would be nice to not have to make up certain aspects of my childhood with random work acquaintances, you know?
Quote from: Chamillion on May 30, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
But what if people didn't have these misconceptions? What if we didn't have to be stealth because everyone accepted trans men as men? I think that would be a better world.
I don't see that ever happening. And even if it did, I would still be stealth. I don't want people knowing my history because while they may view me 100% as male, there is going to be that part of them that is most likely going to be thinking and wondering about my life before transition, what my genitals may or may not look like, how I may or may not have sex, etc.
>But what if people didn't have these misconceptions? What if we didn't have to be stealth because everyone accepted trans men as men? I think that would be a better world.
Couldn't find just this statement, so I'll quote it the old fashioned way. Yes, I used to think this was the case, but i now feel that some guys feel very different on way they are trans and it is sometimes what might separate "out and prouds" from "stealths". I tend to think that I am just different in a way that trans is a varient of the human and in some ways the living world. While I think the term "constipation" might be a bit flippant, I think the feeling that it is a "birth defect" is not. I don't feel this way-- now see that this difference is very real though and that it makes up a lot of the feelings of how we are alike and different in the trans community.
I know some guys who feel they have a birth defect eventually become out and some who feel it is a variable of the living world, for a lack of a better way to put this, become stealth. But pretty sure it explains things in a certain way. Also I think if we reach understanding like this maybe there aren't so many issues. I feel that there can be antagonism for those who are open too.
Hope this is clearer than mud.
--Jay
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on May 30, 2013, 08:57:26 PM
I don't see that ever happening. And even if it did, I would still be stealth. I don't want people knowing my history because while they may view me 100% as male, there is going to be that part of them that is most likely going to be thinking and wondering about my life before transition, what my genitals may or may not look like, how I may or may not have sex, etc.
This is exactly how I feel.
Quote from: aleon515 on May 30, 2013, 09:59:33 PM
>But what if people didn't have these misconceptions? What if we didn't have to be stealth because everyone accepted trans men as men? I think that would be a better world.
it would diffently be a better world
while some people say it won't happent I somehow disagree. No it might not happent right now, and people might not be 100% accepting like people still have prejugding of gay, women, and black people (just making some exemples)
however, looking at diffrent countrys around and looking at the past it moving forward, its still taboo to be bisexual or gay, yet I have no problem where I live to tell people that im bi, If it would be as easy for me to tell them I was trans I would be happy.
For simple 50 years ago, this where very diffrent. I think we tend to forget those facts.
-------
I agree pretty much with
Chamillion first of all, Im not out to be special, it can actually be kinda annoying if people are too facinating of being trans. yeah first time it might be funny but after 5-9-15 times of people going like "OMG when did you find out?" it started getting abit tiredsome..
also I dont force people out because i'm jelous of them being stealth.
I do not want to be 100% stealth so im not jelous of someone being something I dont want to be.
Even when I live in a country where I cant be 100% stealth when im not sterilized, I dont see myself being 100% stealth if I got the option to move away. its my own choice and for most part I also see it as many stealth people do so as a choice even when many also sadly are forced to be stealth due to ignorance in the world.
If people want to be stealth, and I see theres a good reason for it and they just threat people nice then its not a problem. I only have problems when people who is stealth are making behaviours or say comments who put down people who is out, or somehow make it less worthy.
I do prefern if people to be out cause it makes me more equal with the person somehow, I dont need to keep you a secret and you dont need to keep it for me, and you dont need to worry what you say and to who as much. But I do have friends which I said more or less its fine for them to be stealth or not come out Because of the situation they where put in, It all depends on the person and there situations there put in. Sure if someone choice to be open and do activism its cool, but it can be risky and hard, so it all depends on the person whatever or not its a good idea. I do activism and want to be open both because I prefern to be honest, but also because I care about people and its more easy doing activism and make changes who would infect me or my friends if your open.
So making it short, it dosent nessesarry makes me more happy being out but I do feel more honest, also I feel it to be somehow nessesarry part of me to be open for educate and change things who in the end could make me and my friends life better.
Quote from: aleon515 on May 30, 2013, 09:59:33 PM
>But what if people didn't have these misconceptions? What if we didn't have to be stealth because everyone accepted trans men as men? I think that would be a better world.
Couldn't find just this statement, so I'll quote it the old fashioned way. Yes, I used to think this was the case, but i now feel that some guys feel very different on way they are trans and it is sometimes what might separate "out and prouds" from "stealths". I tend to think that I am just different in a way that trans is a varient of the human and in some ways the living world. While I think the term "constipation" might be a bit flippant, I think the feeling that it is a "birth defect" is not. I don't feel this way-- now see that this difference is very real though and that it makes up a lot of the feelings of how we are alike and different in the trans community.
I know some guys who feel they have a birth defect eventually become out and some who feel it is a variable of the living world, for a lack of a better way to put this, become stealth. But pretty sure it explains things in a certain way. Also I think if we reach understanding like this maybe there aren't so many issues. I feel that there can be antagonism for those who are open too.
Hope this is clearer than mud.
--Jay
Yeah this is helpful to me. Yet I'm someone who feels it's a birth defect, because if I hadn't been able to transition I would've been deeply unhappy my entire life. That's a defect to me. So maybe I'd put the line of separation somewhere else. But you're right, there are some who feel the need to reject their history at all costs while some just don't feel like it's something that needs to be hidden and ashamed of.
Natkat, you make a good point. The world is moving forward in terms of discrimination of many kinds. 50 years ago, it was totally unacceptable to be gay. Maybe 50 years from now, people will look back at how trans people were treated and realize it was wrong. It's not totally naive to imagine a better world, it
can happen.
Quote from: Natkat on May 31, 2013, 07:59:31 AM
it would diffently be a better world
I didn't actually say this-- just quoting someone else who did. But I agree it *would* be a better world. Doubt it would end going stealth because there are other reasons besides lack of acceptance.
Another thing I didn't talk about, I always considered myself to be androgynous with maybe a strong male streak, but some people have considered themselves to be male. I think we also might represent some difference in how we are trans in the world.
--Jay
Of course it could be a better world when I'm old as hell or dead. Naw hopefully by the time I'm 40 or so. It can happen and it will. The world changes and there wont be 100% acceptance, but change occurs over time. Blacks being equals, interracial couples, homosexuality, women in pants, women in power, etc. Proof the world changes. I don't think an accepting world would change my decision to be stealth. Why would it matter then or now.
People willing to fight the war shouldn't hate on those that want to stay at home, but people at home should be glad the war is being fought and won - basically my opinion on this in analogy form.
well I think part of it is there is a divide (though not a clear one because people's identities are not always perfectly boxed and rigidly definable) between those of us trans guys who are basically gender/hetero normative guys, except we're trans and those of us who's behaviors and identities don't follow along with expected societal norms (be they femme or genderqueer or what have you). And I think the latter group is more likely to view going stealth as a problem, because it allows someone to blend into the norms. I imagine many of them feel stealth men assume cis-privilege to some degree (the same way that people argue that bisexuals assume straight privilege in heterosexual relationships). Which is not entirely untrue, but that privilege is awfully precarious as anyone who's had it and then been outed can probably tell you.
That said, as much as I applaud people who are out and visible, and I sure wish there was a lot more of them, shaming someone for being stealth is a total dick move.
Quote from: chuck on May 29, 2013, 12:27:05 AM
I told guys i was completely stealth and that I thought that sometimes people running around screaming about being "transgender" can be a detriment to trannsexuals.
Frankly, this is a really problematic thing to say. And since I posted about this not that long ago, I feel like a broken record but it bears repeating. Trans people are not to blame for cis-people's transphobia no matter how they choose to live their lives. Everyone is responsible for their own transphobia, and if the cis population is made uncomfortable by the out and proud, then that is their problem, and their problem alone.
Please stop blaming gender-variant people for transphobia.
Quote from: spacerace on June 02, 2013, 05:37:27 PM
People willing to fight the war shouldn't hate on those that want to stay at home, but people at home should be glad the war is being fought and won - basically my opinion on this in analogy form.
I really dislike this analogy. In the end It doesnt really matter becuse they identify as trans-something and I identify as male. The attitude that openly trans people are somehow these brave soldiers of gender noncomformity is obnoxious to me. Be out and proud but dont act like youre doing me any favors by calling everyone's attention to your gender issues and showing off scars so that everyone who see's mine can make an idiotic comparison between my private medical condition and your political agenda. And i really do mean it. It is fine if someone wants to be openly trans. I do respect that choice and I get it that openly trans people are making the world better for themselves and other openly trans people. But no, you are not making it better for me.
By the way i mean 'you' collective, not 'you' personally.
Quote from: Twin Hammer Tommy on June 02, 2013, 06:00:50 PM
well I think part of it is there is a divide (though not a clear one because people's identities are not always perfectly boxed and rigidly definable) between those of us trans guys who are basically gender/hetero normative guys, except we're trans and those of us who's behaviors and identities don't follow along with expected societal norms (be they femme or genderqueer or what have you). And I think the latter group is more likely to view going stealth as a problem, because it allows someone to blend into the norms. I imagine many of them feel stealth men assume cis-privilege to some degree (the same way that people argue that bisexuals assume straight privilege in heterosexual relationships). Which is not entirely untrue, but that privilege is awfully precarious as anyone who's had it and then been outed can probably tell you.
That said, as much as I applaud people who are out and visible, and I sure wish there was a lot more of them, shaming someone for being stealth is a total dick move.
Frankly, this is a really problematic thing to say. And since I posted about this not that long ago, I feel like a broken record but it bears repeating. Trans people are not to blame for cis-people's transphobia no matter how they choose to live their lives. Everyone is responsible for their own transphobia, and if the cis population is made uncomfortable by the out and proud, then that is their problem, and their problem alone. Please stop blaming gender-variant people for transphobia.
your statement is also problematic there hombre.
1. i never blamed anyone anything
2. I never lumped all gender variant people into one group
3. I also never even said anything about transaphobia
Are people marching in gay pride parades wearing a pink thong and a ball gag problematic to gay guys who just want to be seen as 'normal'? probably. Are they to blame for homophobia. Nah. But that conservatice gay dude has all the right in the world say that the thong and ball gag guy is problematic for him.
Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:22:38 AM
your statement is also problematic there hombre.
1. i never blamed anyone anything
2. I never lumped all gender variant people into one group
3. I also never even said anything about transaphobia
Are people marching in gay pride parades wearing a pink thong and a ball gag problematic to gay guys who just want to be seen as 'normal'? probably. Are they to blame for homophobia. Nah. But that conservatice gay dude has all the right in the world say that the thong and ball gag guy is problematic for him.
Good points Chuck. While there may be differences among us in certain ways in only goes so far. It might be helpful in explanations to ourselves, but it only goes so far. We are brothers in all this. We might always see eye to eye but it's still true. Btw, I went to pride yesterday just had a good time being there and didn't wear any thongs or ball gags. :)
--Jay
One of my main issues with SOME of the "out and proud" trans people is that SOME of them do not respect my stealthness. Perhaps these folks are so used to being openly trans that they completely forget that it is NOT okay to walk up to other trans people in public and start talking to them in a way that outs them. Or perhaps some of them really don't care. I have a problem with either scenario. We must respect each other's boundaries and choices, and we must protect each other as much as we are able. If it means being more conservative in public than we normally would be in other situations, sobeit. But I've run into a few too many difficult situations in which a trans guy either didn't make the transition between trans meetings and socializing out in the world, or he assumed that all the others were out like him. We are not.
For example, in my opinion, it is NOT acceptable to ask a stealth trans person in a crowded coffee house, "Hey, dude, are you going to the gender variant meeting tonight?" In fact, I would never ask ANY trans person a question like this in public because you never know what their situation might be from one minute to the next. Maybe they are out at the LGBT center or school but not in their own neighborhood. Maybe the store you're browsing in is one of those places where the usually open trans person likes to be stealth and just be a "regular person." Maybe the person is only "out" to a certain degree. And so forth.
Case in point: Another trans guy, pre-everything, ran into me while I was out socializing with my gay men's group. Suffice it to say that I am stealth everywhere in my own home town, but especially in that particular group. When talking to the other guy (whom my friends apparently saw as a lesbian), I was very careful to use guarded language such as "the community" instead of "the trans community" and that sort of thing. I was afraid that he would say something inopportune, but he didn't. So I thought that he was being careful, too. We bumped into each other on two separate occasions like this. Later, in an e-mail, I mentioned something about his not outing me--maybe I thanked him for being careful; I really don't remember. When he e-mailed me back, he said that his discretion had been a complete accident and that it had never occurred to him that I might not want to be outed. Naturally, I was furious at such obliviousness.
I've experienced too many uncomfortable and possibly dangerous situations in which these sorts of things happened (and have been outed to strangers on a number of occasions), and it's one reason I don't hang out in the trans community anymore. Some of these people cannot be trusted to practice a little discretion, and I'm not willing to put up with that. If I thought I could trust them, maybe I would be more involved in the community, but (honestly) probably not. At any rate, I cannot trust all of them to be discreet. So they do their thing, and I do mine.
Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:13:59 AM
And i really do mean it. It is fine if someone wants to be openly trans. I do respect that choice and I get it that openly trans people are making the world better for themselves and other openly trans people. But no, you are not making it better for me.
So...if it makes the world better for other trans people, you still don't want it because you're done with transition and successfully stealth? I'm not judging you or criticizing you for this opinion at all - to each their own for real. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
Trans activism does so much for every trans person, and personally, I'd rather see the whole ordeal of transition improved for every trans person in the present and the future. Personally, the benefits of trans activism far outweigh things like the chance someone, somehow, somewhere may notice scars that mean a person might maybe be a transsexual randomly.
These benefits are enormous and I just don't see how the drawbacks outweigh any of them.
Things like:
-Expanded social awareness which can reduce the visceral reactions from people upon learning someone is trans. Even for people that are stealth they generally have to tell family and previous friends - just knowing more about trans people going into it could make it so much better for others to deal with.
-Helping people realize they have options and things can 'get better'. Out trans people on the Internet have been instrumental in helping trans people of all ages learn about surgery, etc. You can say, "stealth trans people can provide information too" Which yes, definitely, obviously. But seeing someone willing to be comfortable with themselves in a public way can be really confidence building for some types of people.
Especially for things like coming out, showing off hormone changes - even anonymous people who appear openly on youtube videos are taking a risk under your thinking. Imagine all the non-trans people that can see the telltale signs of trans surgeries after all the top surgery reveal videos they could randomly stumble across while browsing youtube.
-Increased access to affordable surgeries under expanded health care benefits. The pressure on insurance companies and state health care systems from trans activism has no doubt helped more people get coverage. I don't have coverage under insurance, so not me. But 20 years in the future? The groundwork is laid now.
-Easier, transparent procedures for legalities such as gender marker changes and name changes
All of the above would have made your transition easier, but now that you are finished the benefits are irrelevant because of the minute chance your stealth status could be compromised by some unlikely connection someone makes?
Stealth people can stay stealth and be happy. I'm not hating. "Flaunting your medical condition" is not for you, but people willing to do it are undeniably doing something that benefits every single trans person coming to terms with themselves and beginning to transition.
I think that people that are stealth and are against trans activism should remember early transition. Before a name change, surgery and HRT and how difficult it was. I remember because it wasn't that long ago. Things like using the mens room, getting your name called in a public office or even attending school/work was difficult. Open trans people want to make that process easier for those who live out or those starting out, who can't pass, have a legal name that usually doesn't match their gender and do not have the aid of surgery and hormones. Some are lucky and pass and have no difficulty right out of the gate. The majority of us do. I've seen it all over. Trans activism helps that and helps people who are at least starting out so their transition can go smoother than without. I'm so happy other trans people have been open with me about their transition and helped me find a dr for HRT and have shared their stories so I can transition myself.
On the other hand, I get it. I personally am not "out" and "flaunt my medical condition" for the world to see. I don't tell people I am trans and I don't say I'm FTM every 5 seconds everywhere I go. I live and interact as male. Some people in my life don't know I'm trans at all. While I hear all the time that people who flaunt it are ruining it for the stealth people, I believe they have that right to flaunt, like I do to not flaunt. I don't believe people should cease being themselves because of me or because of how I want to live my life. It goes both ways.
I think of all the gender non-conforming people who came before me and fought the battle for things to be as they are now and while not perfect, it's a lot better than it was 40 years ago. Imagine if no one spoke out or helped anyone? We'd all be up a creek without a paddle. I'm thankful for those that speak out and give me the ability to be myself.
Quote from: Arch on June 03, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
Case in point: Another trans guy, pre-everything, ran into me while I was out socializing with my gay men's group. Suffice it to say that I am stealth everywhere in my own home town, but especially in that particular group. When talking to the other guy (whom my friends apparently saw as a lesbian), I was very careful to use guarded language such as "the community" instead of "the trans community" and that sort of thing. I was afraid that he would say something inopportune, but he didn't. So I thought that he was being careful, too. We bumped into each other on two separate occasions like this. Later, in an e-mail, I mentioned something about his not outing me--maybe I thanked him for being careful; I really don't remember. When he e-mailed me back, he said that his discretion had been a complete accident and that it had never occurred to him that I might not want to be outed. Naturally, I was furious at such obliviousness.
Yeah most of the guys I know are out, but a few are not. I saw one at gay pride yesterday. I'm sure nobody thought anything of it, after all, they could read me as butch, but I was careful not to mention anything trans to him. Of course, me talking to him would imply I knew him and so on and early transition. But I would never go up and say somethign about the ftm meeting, say.
Before every meeting at the trans center they talk about not "outing" anybody in public by casual comments or whatever. I think it is a good thing because at least some stealth people do come.
A little reminder here for us out folks.
--Jay
Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:13:59 AM
I do respect that choice and I get it that openly trans people are making the world better for themselves and other openly trans people. But no, you are not making it better for me.
I disagree with that.
I do not remember where you live, But wheverer it is im sure theres been someone who have infected the way you can live without you knowing it. we generally dont think about those things, on what we have or dont have, it just when we know it by history or personally we start getting a view of it from before and after. People who is much invold with activism and generally follow it see those diffrence in those things, but you can also notice it if you read old books of GLBT and compare it to the present, looking up who made which changes, and how it happent.
Quote from: Arch on June 03, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
One of my main issues with SOME of the "out and proud" trans people is that SOME of them do not respect my stealthness. Perhaps these folks are so used to being openly trans that they completely forget that it is NOT okay to walk up to other trans people in public and start talking to them in a way that outs them. Or perhaps some of them really don't care. I have a problem with either scenario. We must respect each other's boundaries and choices, and we must protect each other as much as we are able.
im sorry for your experience,
I am luckely kind of the opposite, one of my friend is pretty stealth somethimes when we go out he got to say something and afterward he apoligyse like "sorry I got to say this.. and I didnt knew if you felt it okay they knew you where trans"
for me it dosent matter cause around 99% of the times I dont care as long its not put up in a unpropriate way. But I can see the issue, and I guess many people who used to be open might find it difficult to read the situation when to be more open and when not to, I should try take it in notice myself.
Y'know, some of this thread is starting to sound a little stealth shamey.
I think that out trans people are useful to the trans movement in some respects, but not entirely. I for one have serious worries that one day I'm going to be outed by the scars I'll get from top surgery one day, to the point where part of me is leaning towards considering peri even though I generally don't like the look of the outcomes as much. When I'm done with transition I just want to forget about it all, I'm just a regular man, and I want to forget all of this bs we have to go through to be seen as one. There will always be little reminders, but I don't want one of those to be people noticing my scars in public and saying things, because once one person says something I'm going to be forever paranoid that everyone who stares, even if they're just curious because people can't always help looking at big scars, knows my past. And if those scars are publicly broadcast around the place the whole time then it might become a big problem.
My next point sort of contradicts the above one a little, but I've never met an out trans person, and I don't think that a brief encounter with one would educate me, or have been enough for me to realise I was trans, back before I knew the name of it. I'm all for people going on TV for well thought out documentaries, or even well written trans story-lines, because that's how I discovered what my feelings meant, but I don't think that having a bunch of trans people being out would ever touch my life enough to spark up the "that's me" warning light in my brain. I also don't understand the dynamic of how it works to be an out trans person, except for those who don't pass, but if we want to be accepted as "normal people" (by this I mean not the freaks that some cis people view us as) then surely we should be making being trans a minor part of our lives, not some big deal that we have to tell everyone about? That said, I have no interest in ever being out, and I don't understand how some people manage it, or how they go about being out.
One day all trans people will be seen in the same light as cis people, but honestly, I think that's a long time coming. In the 18th century african-american slaves started revolting, and 300 years later the colour of peoples' skin is still something which makes people unequal, despite years of fighting to make it not so. Maybe more relevant, the sixties held the first public protests against homosexual discrimination, and fifty years later most of the - for lack of better terms - western countries are only just coming around to the idea of equality, and there are many who are still homophobic, and potentially in positions of power. In my personal opinion, people just being out isn't enough to change the state of play for trans people in our lifetime, we can't rely to be carried on the backs of the LGB movement, and no one ever got anywhere in history on their own. If people are going to be out in order to progress society, then they need to do more than just be out. It might help their personal social network, but not that of their state, country, or general society. Just to clarify, this is entirely my opinion, and I'm not saying that to be out you need to be fighting tooth and nail for our rights, and nor can only out people fight for our rights, but if that's people's motivations for being out then I don't think it'll achieve very much.
In short, there are both pros and cons to being out, and to being stealth. Without some people being out then there's much less of a chance of trans people understanding that being trans is a thing, but there's the problem that some people could end up being outed due to other trans people being out. Of course that's always going to be a problem, but it could be lesser if the layperson doesn't know our tell-tale scars, etc.
Quote from: AlexanderC on June 03, 2013, 06:04:08 PM
I don't want one of those to be people noticing my scars in public and saying things, because once one person says something I'm going to be forever paranoid that everyone who stares, even if they're just curious because people can't always help looking at big scars, knows my past. And if those scars are publicly broadcast around the place the whole time then it might become a big problem.
That is my greatest worry and it makes me paranoid. I sincerely doubt that I will ever go shirtless in public after top surgery unless it's in an almost isolated area. I don't think I'd ever be comfortable topless at a public pool or crowded beach unless I can get my scars hidden under my pecs or to fade with scar strips. It's not the scars themselves. I have 12 inch scars on both of my sides from kidney surgery. People could look at those and I don't care. They don't identify me as trans.
These kids on various sites (especially YouTube) who are parading their scars while rolling around almost nude on a bed, in a music video they created, or while being filmed while in a parade are doing more disservice to the trans community then they are helping. I think it's fine if you want to show your scars or fresh incision as a way to help other guys understand what a surgeon is capable of or even just to be proud of who you are becoming. The ones who are making a spectacle of themselves are the problem and I don't even think they understand what they're doing. Then again maybe they do and they don't care how what they're doing could have an effect on others.
The trans spectacles are not the people advancing our community. The guys advancing our communities are the guys like Skylar Kergil and Ryan Sallans who spend their time writing books and giving lectures at colleges. Those are the guys who deserve acknowledgement from the community and praise for their work towards fostering a level ground between us and the cis world.
Well, we can't pick and choose how other people behave in the public eye. Perhaps this parading of scars has its positive side. Normalization, for one thing. I honestly don't know. I think it's probably better to have lots of young trans guys out there making home videos than not. Regardless, we have to live with whatever is out there.
I am by nature a pretty private person. I think that some of this comes from having to hide for so many years, especially during my childhood and youth. The current generation is quite different because of all the tech options. In fact, I'm quite different because of technology. Susan's Place, for example, has given me the opportunity to talk about things I never used to talk about. I still keep a lot to myself when I come here, but I open up a lot more than I would without the Internet. So I don't know what it is like to actually grow up with all of this tech stuff. Showing off surgery scars seems pretty tame compared to other things I've seen.
Quote from: AlexanderC on June 03, 2013, 06:04:08 PM
Y'know, some of this thread is starting to sound a little stealth shamey.
In short, there are both pros and cons to being out, and to being stealth. Without some people being out then there's much less of a chance of trans people understanding that being trans is a thing, but there's the problem that some people could end up being outed due to other trans people being out. Of course that's always going to be a problem, but it could be lesser if the layperson doesn't know our tell-tale scars, etc.
Don't know how this thread is "stealth shamey". I think people recognize that there are advantages both ways. That's what I'm reading anyway. I have read pretty much a respectful conversation, maybe a few less respectful comments.
Not everyone out will help things out. It's pretty certain that they won't. In fact, there are people who do the opposite. Look at gay rights. There are "out" gays who just party and act up pretty much. I don't think we are 300 years away from changing attitudes but I think we might be something like 25 years behind gays right now.
--Jay
Quote from: spacerace on June 03, 2013, 02:45:29 PM
So...if it makes the world better for other trans people, you still don't want it because you're done with transition and successfully stealth? I'm not judging you or criticizing you for this opinion at all - to each their own for real. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
Trans activism does so much for every trans person, and personally, I'd rather see the whole ordeal of transition improved for every trans person in the present and the future. Personally, the benefits of trans activism far outweigh things like the chance someone, somehow, somewhere may notice scars that mean a person might maybe be a transsexual randomly.
Not sure how this changes anything...If a stealth man is just that a man who does not identify with the "community" how does it interfere with what the out transmen does.
Really it should be a equal human right all fight for mankind. There are politicians, parents, friends, and partners, who fight for those rights just as much as the flag toting trans brother. Not saying the efforts aren't appreciated but don't feel like its only the trans proud putting there neck on the line its not.
Also saying I'm not judging you or criticizing does not approve the borderline criticizing/judgmental remarks, not singling out you everyone who keeps starting with that lol. Don't take it harsh I'm just saying we are all grown men here just state your opinion and be real, remember we all are entitled to that. Just dont start bashing on a post about bashing.
Someone else said something similar, but there are closet or low key gay men who play football, who hang with heterosexual males seamlessly for safety and the desire for equality and normality, men who don't talk with a lisp, switch, snap, or attend prides, Some of these men do not go all active captain sign this petition, but support the cause as a equal human beings. Just because you don't get active and speak out does not make you a bad person nor does it say stealth you can't make a difference.
There are some stealth men who do not agree with flamboyant lifestyle of gay men. I have stealth friends who hate being around my flamboyant friends. There opinion they are entitled to.
I'm (going) stealth for me not because I hate the rights that have rightfully been given by supportive folks not just trans folks. Not saying trans activism is not important but one its not for me and how I identify, and two don't be so full of it to the point you believe only trans people have made the difference. A straight cis man can be just as informative on the issue as well as a doctor who can post his work on websites or forums. We all don't have a job to do as citizens or some crap, its not neighborhood watch.
Quote from: spacerace on June 03, 2013, 02:45:29 PM
So...if it makes the world better for other trans people, you still don't want it because you're done with transition and successfully stealth? I'm not judging you or criticizing you for this opinion at all - to each their own for real. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
Trans activism does so much for every trans person, and personally, I'd rather see the whole ordeal of transition improved for every trans person in the present and the future. Personally, the benefits of trans activism far outweigh things like the chance someone, somehow, somewhere may notice scars that mean a person might maybe be a transsexual randomly.
These benefits are enormous and I just don't see how the drawbacks outweigh any of them.
Things like:
-Expanded social awareness which can reduce the visceral reactions from people upon learning someone is trans. Even for people that are stealth they generally have to tell family and previous friends - just knowing more about trans people going into it could make it so much better for others to deal with.
-Helping people realize they have options and things can 'get better'. Out trans people on the Internet have been instrumental in helping trans people of all ages learn about surgery, etc. You can say, "stealth trans people can provide information too" Which yes, definitely, obviously. But seeing someone willing to be comfortable with themselves in a public way can be really confidence building for some types of people.
Especially for things like coming out, showing off hormone changes - even anonymous people who appear openly on youtube videos are taking a risk under your thinking. Imagine all the non-trans people that can see the telltale signs of trans surgeries after all the top surgery reveal videos they could randomly stumble across while browsing youtube.
-Increased access to affordable surgeries under expanded health care benefits. The pressure on insurance companies and state health care systems from trans activism has no doubt helped more people get coverage. I don't have coverage under insurance, so not me. But 20 years in the future? The groundwork is laid now.
-Easier, transparent procedures for legalities such as gender marker changes and name changes
All of the above would have made your transition easier, but now that you are finished the benefits are irrelevant because of the minute chance your stealth status could be compromised by some unlikely connection someone makes?
Stealth people can stay stealth and be happy. I'm not hating. "Flaunting your medical condition" is not for you, but people willing to do it are undeniably doing something that benefits every single trans person coming to terms with themselves and beginning to transition.
First of all, no. you are not understanding me correctly. I would love to know how you got "doesnt want others to be out" from me saying that i support being people out. I think i have said that about three times in this thread.
I also disagree with your wide sweeping statement that all out people are doing something "undeniably" good. This is a part of the "out and proud" attitude that i persoally find unnapealing. I support democracy which means you have the right to your political allegiances. but do i think that out and proud folks are some how these wariors of gender non comformity? absolutely not. They do what they want for whatever reasons and no matter how they justify it, I am free to disagree that it is beneficial. I think it is incredibly narrow minded to assume that "every single" trans person benefits from anything that one trans person / group does.
If you want to stick to the soldier analogy, i think our statement is alot like assuming that all US soldiers are doign something indeniably benefical for every american. For the record, i say this as a guy who has served in the military (just to clear - not the US miliatary but an allied force) I do not think that what ive done is 'undeniably' good for America. I did what i felt was best. That is what it comes down to in both situations. Our decisions are not the best for anyone or everyone. they are the best fo us. soometimes those decisions hurt people and sometimes they help. but to say that our actions help everyone? meh.
I really have not seem much stealth shaming. Perhaps I'm not spending enough time in the right places. I have seen far more shaming of people who are "out and proud", and people who have had bottom surgery than stealth shaming.
Personally I have no problems with people who want to go stealth and fully understand. Many people treat you different if they know you are trans, some stop respecting gender identity or treat us in misogynistic ways. For some it can be dangerous to be out. On the other hand I do also see the importance of trans people who are out and educating others about trans issues.
It seems some think out means you always talk about being trans, or go around flaunting it at all times. I cannot speak for others, but I am out, and I am not at all ashamed to be transgender. But I don't talk about it all the time. I mostly bring it up to correct people on gender pronouns. Of course, I have to be out, because I am unable to access necessary medical care for my transition where I live and can't afford to travel to have anything done. I think if I was passing I would be mostly stealth to people who don't need to know, because I'm a private persona and unless you are famous and rich being out can be dangerous. I would still be out in safe places to educate, however.
Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on June 04, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
I really have not seem much stealth shaming. Perhaps I'm not spending enough time in the right places. I have seen far more shaming of people who are "out and proud", and people who have had bottom surgery than stealth shaming.
Personally I have no problems with people who want to go stealth and fully understand. Many people treat you different if they know you are trans, some stop respecting gender identity or treat us in misogynistic ways. For some it can be dangerous to be out. On the other hand I do also see the importance of trans people who are out and educating others about trans issues.
It seems some think out means you always talk about being trans, or go around flaunting it at all times. I cannot speak for others, but I am out, and I am not at all ashamed to be transgender. But I don't talk about it all the time. I mostly bring it up to correct people on gender pronouns. Of course, I have to be out, because I am unable to access necessary medical care for my transition where I live and can't afford to travel to have anything done. I think if I was passing I would be mostly stealth to people who don't need to know, because I'm a private persona and unless you are famous and rich being out can be dangerous. I would still be out in safe places to educate, however.
I haven't seen it much either, but I have heard of it, and potentially think it is there. It's logical that where people are they are going to make arses of themselves.
But just because you are "out" doesn't mean you have a sign on you saying you are out and are out in 100% of situations. It is just exhausting and kind of weird. I am in out in the sense that I do not care if people know I am in trans and I am not ashamed of it, but I'm not in every situation saying "hey I'm Jay, I'm trans".
It could be dangerous in some areas. I think actually that being out might be more common in the east coast, west coast, and certain other areas (mountain SW), and some countries, where it is more acceptable to be different. There are dangers.
I use the men's room nearly 100% of the time. Not sure if I will use it in Las Vegas when I fly in and out. (If anybody has an opinion they can PM me.)
--Jay
Quote from: Dark.Knight on June 04, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
Also saying I'm not judging you or criticizing does not approve the borderline criticizing/judgmental remarks, not singling out you everyone who keeps starting with that lol. Don't take it harsh I'm just saying we are all grown men here just state your opinion and be real, remember we all are entitled to that. Just dont start bashing on a post about bashing.
I am pretty sure my entire post made my opinion on this matter overwhelming clear. I was not equivocating in the least. I braced my arguments with this to let the person I was replying to know I wasn't personally attacking him. Also, who is 'bashing'?
Quote from: chuck on June 04, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
First of all, no. you are not understanding me correctly. I would love to know how you got "doesnt want others to be out" from me saying that i support being people out. I think i have said that about three times in this thread.
We seem to be misunderstanding each other in circles. My interpretation of your argument was that trans activism has nothing to give you or other specific trans people in every case (stealth vs out vs out and proud) - not that you were against others 'being out'. And, I got that opinion about what you said from this statement:
Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:13:59 AM
I do respect that choice and I get it that openly trans people are making the world better for themselves and other openly trans people. But no, you are not making it better for me.
My arguments were a cost-benefit analysis and a breakdown of how the benefits can actually help everyone: Stealth,wants to be stealth, out, out and proud- and could have helped even you. Maybe just the you that existed pre-transition, but the point remains.You can argue those points line by line if you want, and I would defend them.
Quote from: chuck on June 04, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
If you want to stick to the soldier analogy, i think our statement is alot like assuming that all US soldiers are doign something indeniably benefical for every american. For the record, i say this as a guy who has served in the military (just to clear - not the US miliatary but an allied force) I do not think that what ive done is 'undeniably' good for America. I did what i felt was best. That is what it comes down to in both situations. Our decisions are not the best for anyone or everyone. they are the best fo us. soometimes those decisions hurt people and sometimes they help. but to say that our actions help everyone? meh.
I picked the war analogy because it was convenient. I don't think we (America) should be at war at all, and I feel like if I answered this directly I'd end up sounding like I was defending it somehow.
I thought stealth shaming was people telling those who are stealth they should be out or they are hurting the cause. That is never an opinion I would support or defend.
I just think the people on the Internet who make videos and post pictures on sites like f*** yeah ftms etc are doing something great for trans people everywhere who are struggling with what it means and what to do with themselves in order to enjoy their lives. It is awesome to me that so many people can see the journey of others and realize they have options. It has benefits for those who are beginning their journey into transition. That was my only point.
Others on this thread seem to really disagree. For some people, it is because it may compromise them in the future. I find this unlikely to happen, thus it is nothing to me compared to the benefits I listed.
Quote from: chuck on June 04, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
They do what they want for whatever reasons and no matter how they justify it, I am free to disagree that it is beneficial. I think it is incredibly narrow minded to assume that "every single" trans person benefits from anything that one trans person / group does.
Does every single action someone takes benefit every single person every time? To say that would be absurd. I meant trans activism and awareness in the aggregate, however - I *do* think anything that raises *positive* consciousness of trans people is beneficial for trans people everywhere in the long run.
ALSO - and this is a key point. Arguments about this are sorta moot. Cat is out of the bag, etc etc. The explosion of trans related videos and blogs speak to this fact.
Quote from: aleon515 on June 04, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
But just because you are "out" doesn't mean you have a sign on you saying you are out and are out in 100% of situations. It is just exhausting and kind of weird.
--
It could be dangerous in some areas. I think actually that being out might be more common in the east coast, west coast, and certain other areas (mountain SW), and some countries, where it is more acceptable to be different. There are dangers.
I use the men's room nearly 100% of the time. Not sure if I will use it in Las Vegas when I fly in and out. (If anybody has an opinion they can PM me.)
--Jay
Yeah, most people I meet who consider themself out" including myself is casual for most points, only diffrence between them and people being stealth is they likely to be honest with you if you ask them if your trans, and there also likely to tell you if its has value for the contacts. sure I cant speak for every single human being, but thats how I felt.
your from US right?
For the danger point, do they have self-defence lextures for GLBTQ people agenst hate crime in your area?
----
Quote from: Natkat on June 04, 2013, 04:45:05 PM
Y only diffrence between them and people being stealth is they likely to be honest with you if you ask them if your trans, and there also likely to tell you if its has value for the contacts. sure I cant speak for every single human being, but thats how I felt.
your from US right?
For the danger point, do they have self-defence lextures for GLBTQ people agenst hate crime in your area?
----
I don't like the word "honest". I know you didn't mean anything but it could be misinterpreted. I like to think of the level of "disclosure" that you would want. Since we are male, we don't have to tell anybody anything else. If we want to that's another story. But we all live in a sort of a dance in terms of disclosure. Even people who are not out, may be out to certain people in their lives.
Safe in the US?
I feel pretty safe in Albuquerque. It's a very LGBT friendly city. But there are places which are not safe. When I was in Chicago, which is just a big city and not particularly LBGT unfriendly there were the "pink panthers" which is like a group that goes out and protects gays.
There are of , of course, places which are very unsafe.
The US is very diverse and some places are probably the most LBGT friendly in the world, and some places where I don't think anyone is out. So if you go to the US, you might want to think about where you might be safest.
--Jay
Quote from: spacerace on June 04, 2013, 03:52:51 PM
I am pretty sure my entire post made my opinion on this matter overwhelming clear. I was not equivocating in the least. I braced my arguments with this to let the person I was replying to know I wasn't personally attacking him. Also, who is 'bashing'?
I'm pretty sure when I said saying I'm not judging you or criticizing does not approve the borderline criticizing/judgmental remarks, not singling out you everyone who keeps starting with that lol. Don't take it harsh I'm just saying we are all grown men here just state your opinion and be real, remember we all are entitled to that. Just dont start bashing on a post about bashing.
I clean cut, said I am not singling you out and when I said bashing, it appears this topic is becoming bashful toward everyone's different opinions, although i made a error I meant "don't start bashing on a post about shaming"
Just like you saying I was not personally attacking him, I'm not personally attacking you.
When I said, stating your not criticizing does not change the words being said after that from being, criticism or judgmental just kill it and spill your feeling.
I tried to make light of it with a lol, but you seem very defensive. Like I said though, we are all grown men here state how you feel and move on. This topic has become divided and off track from folks taking it all too personal.
Who cares everyone be you, stay stealth, stay bitter, stay an activist, and just float in your skin ;D
Quote from: aleon515 on June 04, 2013, 08:10:44 PM
I don't like the word "honest". I know you didn't mean anything but it could be misinterpreted. I like to think of the level of "disclosure" that you would want. Since we are male, we don't have to tell anybody anything else. If we want to that's another story. But we all live in a sort of a dance in terms of disclosure. Even people who are not out, may be out to certain people in their lives.
Safe in the US?
I feel pretty safe in Albuquerque. It's a very LGBT friendly city. But there are places which are not safe. When I was in Chicago, which is just a big city and not particularly LBGT unfriendly there were the "pink panthers" which is like a group that goes out and protects gays.
how is it to be misunderstood?
-
Okay, I just know a couple of guys I know made self defence courses for GLBT people to train people who was affraid of hatecrimes to use self defense if they got into nasty situations. the opinion of it are mixed, I personally feel its a great idea for the places where the hate crimes risk are high.
---
Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:22:38 AM
1. i never blamed anyone anything
Well, frankly, I cannot understand how "people screaming about being transgender" (which is shorthand for people who are out and talk about being out a lot, and that characterization is in and of itself pretty dismissive, quite honestly.) could possibly be detrimental to trans people as a whole, unless you are suggesting that they are affecting how cis- people view us. Please feel free to correct me. If that is how you meant it, then there's really no way around it, that is expecting certain people who are gender variant to act a certain way in order to appease transpobes. In what other way could people's outward expression of their identities be detrimental?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk599%2FSimonSez81%2Fdead-horse_zps9556c326.gif&hash=7031695b951bf9ead47772f9bee0111582997a0b)
Quote from: Simon on June 05, 2013, 05:09:51 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1117.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk599%2FSimonSez81%2Fdead-horse_zps9556c326.gif&hash=7031695b951bf9ead47772f9bee0111582997a0b)
yes lol
We do get shame, and I'm not sure why. I'm not "hiding" this part about me, its just no ones business what my body was like at birth.
Quote from: anibioman on May 29, 2013, 08:45:51 PM
I'm transitioning to be male not to be FTM.
This makes total sense. It seems like many "out" guys are transitioning to be seen as ftm trans, but isn't the whole point of transitioning to just be seen as male?
Quote from: notyouraverageguy on June 06, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
It seems like many "out" guys are transitioning to be seen as ftm trans, but isn't the whole point of transitioning to just be seen as male?
For me, yes. Not for them, apparently.
Quote from: notyouraverageguy on June 06, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
We do get shame, and I'm not sure why. I'm not "hiding" this part about me, its just no ones business what my body was like at birth.
This makes total sense. It seems like many "out" guys are transitioning to be seen as ftm trans, but isn't the whole point of transitioning to just be seen as male?
Well I see my identity as "transgender". I am not transitioning to be FTM, but I acknowledge that I will never be completely 100% male. I guess though I don't feel completely binary. So I think there might be a difference, as I have heard a lot of "out" guys say this sort of thing. But I have never shamed anybody for being stealth, it's not my business for one thing. Also I don't feel that it is "bad" in anyway. I have maintained that "out" people and "stealth" people might be a bit like subgroups with usually different attitudes and povs.
@Alex-- Just don't want to use the term "more honest", it sounds like someone else might be "less honest". I don't feel unsafe where I am. But I think it's quite a liberal area.
--Jay
Same here, I'm not transitioning to be FTM but to be the male I've always been. I know once I'm 100% where I want to be this transitioning phase and being born "female" thing will not exist. I'm hiding nothing and there isn't anything to disclose except maybe to sexual partners pre op.
LOL, this argument was heated for a bit. I am glade that died down. Either way, who cares? Truly gentlemen, I imagine once we have all become who we want to be (I assert men) no one is going to take the time to out someone. Frankly gents, who the has time for that?
A mark of a gentlemen or a grown man is to not be messy. Is that not what we hope to teach our sons and direct our daughters towards?
Quote from: WorkerBeast on June 08, 2013, 01:09:46 AM
LOL, this argument was heated for a bit. I am glade that died down. Either way, who cares? Truly gentlemen, I imagine once we have all become who we want to be (I assert men) no one is going to take the time to out someone. Frankly gents, who the has time for that?
A mark of a gentlemen or a grown man is to not be messy. Is that not what we hope to teach our sons and direct our daughters towards?
Haha true gentleman. Ok now I have had my laugh. :)
Anyway yeah I'm glad too. It's an interesting thread but glad it toned down a bit. Funny thing about "outing" people who have been on T a LONG time (over 2 years) is that sometimes you can't even out yourself. I have heard this from other people, of course, as I am still early transition. "Your trans-- NO, no your not". They just can't believe it.
--Jay