I am wondering about this tonight....If there is a god and he's supposed to be perfect then why would he make us feel like we're not the gender we're "supposed" to be....?
While I am not the religious types, I do have certain beliefs. Suppose I'm agnostic. Anyway, as much as it sucks, and we all know it does at times, it could be so much worse. There are far bigger obstacles and disorders than being transgender that other people have to go through. So if you're questioning the existence of God, I think there are far better examples than gender identity.
However, finding the strength to overcome these obstacles and the faith you'll make it through could also be an example of some divine power. I don't know. God isn't supposed to be a magic genie who grants wishes and makes everything perfect for everyone. It's all about faith and that faith in turn is supposed to make someone stronger.
If such a perfect god existed people would not be born blind, deaf, with limbs missing, messed up faces, mental retardation, etc. so just add being trans to the list.
I subscribe more to the theory that our spirit, our soul, chooses our physical life expression. In which case, why would we do this to ourself? For me it was to learn I didn't have to adhere to social strictures, to learn I was in charge of my own destiny, to have the courage to stand up for myself, to live my life to the fullest without placing blame, without hating myself despite what I perceive as my deformities, to love myself to be grateful for what I do have in life and be grateful that I wasn't born with any of the disabilities I mentioned above.
Sure, I would have rather been born cis female, I wasn't, I'm trans female and that makes life a bit of a challenge. But I will never take being a woman for granted, I know more about gender than most cis people, if they choose to accept me that's great, if not, that's their problem. Sometimes I feel despair at what I feel I may have missed out on and my effed up biology, but other times I'm incredibly grateful and wouldn't have it any other way.
What a great life. What a great journey. That's why my soul, or a god, or nothing at all, did "this" to me.
I've asked this question often as well. It's not really the original reason I stopped following any religion (I'm also agnostic btw), but does back up my reasons to not put my faith into any god. If a god created me this way, then I want nothing to do with them. It seems like either some sick joke or a twisted experiment, and I wouldn't appreciate being a lab rat. I really just picture a god who would do this as the kid sitting over an ant hill with a magnifying glass laughing at the ants as the burns them.
I am still spiritual, but I'll put my faith where it will help me more instead of hurt me.
As always, Ms. Grace has a great reply.. I tend to feel very similar most of the time, and hopefully use my faith, love and hope to make others feel better about whatever they're facing or struggling with..
Personally I am quite sick some days from an illness, and unable to have the energy to get out and do things, and for me those very bad days have brought me to a closer relationship with God, some days we talk as if God was sitting with me, and maybe he was, but it helped me get through some very bad days, and I'm left thankful for that, with a stronger faith because of it..
I believe we are here for a reason and that reason may be to continue our personal growth or to help others to complete their grow and path, every time we die we have the option to come back and to continue that path, our suffering is to be able to figure that path out and to keep growing as a whole.
I also believe in a God, a God that gave us the freedom to make our own decisions and to choose our paths by using our own convictions and experiences.
A movie once mentioned something about a perfect world :
"The first Matrix failed because it was too perfect. It was a virtual paradise, a utopia for humanity. Unfortunately, humans are not accustomed to living in a perfect world, and the test subjects rejected the simulation because it just wasn't right." << The Matrix Reloaded >>
For me that quote is perfect to describe why God allows people to be blind, deaf, transgender, etc. Can you imagine us living in a perfect world? We would not have to make any options, it would be horrible, everything would be already done and people would not have anything to look forward to.
When i was a kid I used to go to bed crying and asking God why this happened to me, asking to be a girl when i woke up the next day, I did not understand my feelings and the reason for me to be in a wrong body, but not matter what, every time i made a choice i made it thinking that it would helped me reach my goal not matter what.
I am 37, and I had to go thru several experiences to get where i am, but these past experiences are the ones that helped me understand my path and helped me accomplished my goal, it took me 35 years to understand as well as to get in peace with myself to be able to make the final decision and to reach my goal, but not matter what, I do no regret any single moment for the last 37 years, I would gladly go thru all of it again and as Ms Grace mentioned, these experiences helped me "to learn I didn't have to adhere to social strictures, to learn I was in charge of my own destiny, to have the courage to stand up for myself, to live my life to the fullest without placing blame, without hating myself despite what I perceive as my deformities, to love myself to be grateful for what I do have in life and be grateful that I wasn't born with any of the disabilities I mentioned above." << Quote from Ms Grace from Post #2 >>
The only thing i can say is, be strong, plan your life and have personal goals, try to accomplish each of your goals not matter how long they take, but most important, always be you no matter what, even if you are not able to show your real feminine you for a long time make sure that every decision you make is done thinking that it will reduce the path to get to your main goal.
Quote from: Ms Grace on September 13, 2014, 11:17:47 PM
If such a perfect god existed people would not be born blind, deaf, with limbs missing, messed up faces, mental retardation, etc. so just add being trans to the list.
I subscribe more to the theory that our spirit, our soul, chooses our physical life expression. In which case, why would we do this to ourself?
This whole post was remarkable. The only thing I'd really care to add to it, is that I do not believe the two quoted concepts are mutually exclusive.
EDIT: Perhaps also, that the entire concept of "perfection," per the OP, is an entirely human one and, as such, flawed and not easily understood. Perhaps it's not even relevant. It is what it is, and we can only play the cards we are dealt, however we see fit. Nobody, not even any god, can or will change that.
Quote from: mzaomz on September 14, 2014, 05:30:51 AM
A movie once mentioned something about a perfect world :
"The first Matrix failed because it was too perfect. It was a virtual paradise, a utopia for humanity. Unfortunately, humans are not accustomed to living in a perfect world, and the test subjects rejected the simulation because it just wasn't right." << The Matrix Reloaded >>
This is notable, by the way, in that Lana Wachowski was one of two writers/directors of The Matrix series, and rumors of her possible transition began circulating right around the time Reloaded was released. So this is a reflection that could very well have come from her.
Human biology is, in many ways, like a program. Its code generally adheres to a specified norm, and genetic/congenital mutations occur at a small enough % frequency that the species can handle & benefit from them without its integrity as a system being compromised by too much mutation that is not useful.
People who are not born cisgender are, despite the challenges and struggles, uniquely gifted at a ratio far higher than the population norm, and have been of integral benefit to humanity in myriad cultures over the ages as a "good" mutation.
I generally see leaping to notions of spirituality on matters like this as a myopic, self-centered view. I prefer to seek rational explanations first.
Why wouldn't a perfect God make people trans?
The idea that God somehow made a "mistake" by making us trans is one of the most damaging ideas in the community. I assert this because if we tell a person of faith that a perfect God made a mistake with us well, God is perfect, God can't make mistakes, so the person of faith is now free to beleive that we are turning our back on God to live a sinful lifestyle.
I propose being trans is a challenge God gave us to rise up to. I was a partisan, biased, close minded, judgemental jerk pre transition. Not to mention an alcoholic with anger issues from turning my back on God's will. Choosing to embrace God's plan for me was like the ultimate stage dive. I had to trust the world that someone out there would catch me and, woundn't you know it, an amazing array of people did from all walks of life. People I thought would hate me, would condemn me actually caught and encouraged me blowing a hole in all my preconceived notions of "people". Transition was my healing moment from being born trans.
I don't know how much more effective a being made trans is God's plan argument could be in the place of God made a mistake. My hope is at the very least by avoiding calling being trans a "mistake" a conversation could be started.
Quote from: Ms Grace on September 13, 2014, 11:17:47 PM
If such a perfect god existed people would not be born blind, deaf, with limbs missing, messed up faces, mental retardation, etc. so just add being trans to the list.
I subscribe more to the theory that our spirit, our soul, chooses our physical life expression. In which case, why would we do this to ourself? For me it was to learn I didn't have to adhere to social strictures, to learn I was in charge of my own destiny, to have the courage to stand up for myself, to live my life to the fullest without placing blame, without hating myself despite what I perceive as my deformities, to love myself to be grateful for what I do have in life and be grateful that I wasn't born with any of the disabilities I mentioned above.
Sure, I would have rather been born cis female, I wasn't, I'm trans female and that makes life a bit of a challenge. But I will never take being a woman for granted, I know more about gender than most cis people, if they choose to accept me that's great, if not, that's their problem. Sometimes I feel despair at what I feel I may have missed out on and my effed up biology, but other times I'm incredibly grateful and wouldn't have it any other way.
What a great life. What a great journey. That's why my soul, or a god, or nothing at all, did "this" to me.
Grace
Very similar thoughts. I own my life and my journey. I am just where I should be and will be just where I want to be. My choice, my life, my reality. If there is a God then I wish to thank them for giving me this life, this opportunity and for creating me as NB.
Safe travels
Aisla
I don't know if anyone has considered it as I may have overlooked some ideas in my haste reading but what about Job?
Those of us who are cisgender have some rather severe problems as do the ones some have mentioned such as birth defects and such. There are many who hate the lot that befell them.
The word of God shows us that after Adam and Eve sinned that sin entered the world as well as all sorts of infirmity and affliction. The scriptures about God creating perfect are prior to this. After the fall normal reproduction took place with people who were subject to sickness and affliction.
It's easy for people to love God when all goes well. Look how many flock to hear someone like Joel Osteen tell them live their best life now and make every day as Friday. What about when this is not the case?
Can we still love God when the illness is killing us and the doctor has no cure? Can we still love God when the bottom appears to have dropped out and all is going wrong?
The true test of who loves God isn't when life is always going good. The true test comes like with Job when all is going bad and all is lost. Those who still love the Lord after all of that have manifested an unconditional love for the Lord.
The wedding vows are better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health and in good times and bad. Naturally we all want the good, richer and healthier and it would make loving the Lord so much easier. But when we have the poorer, sicker and bad it isn't so easy and separates the wheat from the chaff and the fair weather Christians from the serious ones.
Maybe some of you have already thought about this or posted it and I missed it. If so I am sorry for repeating it. I just see these things as a test of faith and proving our love for the Lord.
A god that delights in chaos, or pain, or variation?
There are some people who believe there's a being that set in motion things like time, entropy and evolution but watches impassively while the universe takes shape by these rules. A god like that might well create something like us and not have violated its own principles.
My dear Western sisters. Your idea of a single god is not universal, it is ony your Christian view. As a buddhist we can also believe in many other gods e.g. Ganisha, Kwan Yin etc. This also applies to Hindu and Shinto religions. We do not see being tg as something wrong nor right, it is simply just this life, we will have many more to come.
Quote from: warlockmaker on March 20, 2018, 10:29:04 PM
My dear Western sisters. Your idea of a single god is not universal, it is ony your Christian view. As a buddhist we can also believe in many other gods e.g. Ganisha, Kwan Yin etc. This also applies to Hindu and Shinto religions. We do not see being tg as something wrong nor right, it is simply just this life, we will have many more to come.
Can I end mine and move to the next one?
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Life each life to the fullest, live in the present moment and do no harm to others. Our tenants of a good person are so similar to your sins. Many scholars believe that Jesus, when he had 5 years of his life that that has not been accounted for went to Asia and studied buddhism which was flurishing. Buddhism is 543 years older than Christianity. Thus this year in our calander is 2561.
The gods in question may have wanted diversity in their creations, look at how many animals their are. The idea that anything in nature is strictly binary is flawed, and we may be a message to the intolerant to reconsider their stance
I have tried to put forth the idea that God made me trans for a reason in my "discussion" with my cousin when I came out to him, and again when he started texting me again about it this morning. I don't think that anyone who is so against the very concept of being trans will ever accept it no matter what we say. At least, not if what he said to me is any indication.
Because of human intervention. Misinterpretation of the word The ability to control through fear. Making religion a capitalistic endeavour. Here are the two things that guide my direction. Love the Lord with all thy heart and Love thy neighbour as thyself. There are no greater commandments that these.
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When the model does not fit the observation, one must change the model to fit the observation.
Quote from: kittylover on September 13, 2014, 10:36:37 PM
I am wondering about this tonight....If there is a god and he's supposed to be perfect then why would he make us feel like we're not the gender we're "supposed" to be....?
For me personally I am a Christian and I believe that it all started out perfect in the garden, but genetics have certainly gone down hill since the fall of Adam and Eve. You can't blame God for that. He meets us where we're at and makes the best of our situations.
Quote from: kittylover on September 13, 2014, 10:36:37 PM
I am wondering about this tonight....If there is a god and he's supposed to be perfect then why would he make us feel like we're not the gender we're "supposed" to be....?
Just look at the world and the mess it is. If the (real or hypothetical) entity you refer to as your God (or Godess) was truly perfect, this mess would reflect His (or Her) understanding of perfectionism, provided of course that He (or She) created this mess intentionally in the first place, and not randomly.
Personally I don't think it makes much sense to figure out whether having a transgender personality is a "mistake" of nature or the entity you call God. Transgender personality is simply a reality for a part of humans. Period. And I think there are some much worse personality options than being trans.
You also question a) whether there's an intention of the entity you call God in making some humans trans and b) what intention that might be. There seem to be as many answers to your question as there are religious beliefs. As I am a follower of the so called scientific method in everyday life, in commonsense consciousness that is, my personal reply to your questions must be the one of an agnostic: I don't know. On the contrary, where science meets spirituality, there is space for subjective experience, gut feelings, personal conviction based on one's personal life experience. To me it's not so important what a hypothetical higher power that hypothetically might have created transgender humans would have intended. To me much more important is to survive being trans. That's more practical, you see. ;)
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Quotewhat kind of god would do this to us?
none.....get it?
Quote from: jaybutterfly on October 11, 2018, 11:49:31 AM
The gods in question may have wanted diversity in their creations, look at how many animals their are. The idea that anything in nature is strictly binary is flawed, and we may be a message to the intolerant to reconsider their stance
I like this interpretation.
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Quote from: chrisalex on January 06, 2019, 04:35:16 PM
Just look at the world and the mess it is. If the (real or hypothetical) entity you refer to as your God (or Godess) was truly perfect, this mess would reflect His (or Her) understanding of perfectionism, provided of course that He (or She) created this mess intentionally in the first place, and not randomly.
Hi, Chrisalex!
Welcome to Susan's Place.
I am not a believer, but I know that I was born trans. If there is a God, He or She made me that way. It is not for me to say why. My job is to deal with it.
Please feel free to stop by the Introductions forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) to tell the members about yourself. Here is some information that we like to share with new members:
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If societal "norms" and cultural stigmas weren't so messed up, and if all people were accepting and kind, being trans would be an amazing gift others might envy. A transgender Native American in many of the tribal nations is an honor, and that person usually becomes the Shaman, the spiritual leader of the tribe -- the Two-Spirit person. My great grandmother was a Native American and the local tribe where I live accepts Two-Spirit people as normal.
Even though I had a very hard life until now because of it, I personally feel blessed to have been born transgender and recognize that it's the world that's messed up, not me. My tribulations made me a stronger more self-confident and caring person. The people who rejected me when I came out are no longer in my life, and they've been replaced with many more remarkable people in my life as an openly transgender woman. It's their loss, not mine.
My life is so much better since I began living as I my true self. You'll attract the best kind of people into your life when you do. A god, creator, or whatever isn't the issue. It's the people, and we can change that over time by being out there for people to see how amazing we are. Embrace it. Don't hate it.
It's a good question. I'm not a Christian, in case it matters.
It's easier to explain if you believe that we live more than once or that we exist before being born and have a say in what challenges we will face. Many people who believe these things believe that we live in order to learn certain lessons, and the challenges we face are designed to teach them.
But even if you believe the orthodox Christian doctrine that we only live once, there is a way to look at our situation positively – and not only ours, because there are people who face greater challenges than we do.
Most people seem to focus on the individual experience of life and don't take into account that none of us is alone. We are all part of a greater human family. Individuals belong to families, families belong to communities, communities belong to countries and countries belong to the world; and I think that one of the reasons we have the problems we do is to teach us compassion, and to provide an opportunity for others to learn compassion. We are also here to help and be helped, to inspire and to be inspired. Our problems and the problems of others provide a opportunity for learning to love and be loved.
This may be cold comfort to someone alone and in anguish. However, I don't believe we are ever alone. I believe that, however you conceive of God, God is there – not often to rescue us from our circumstances (what would be the point in that? we have them for a reason), but to help us to overcome them.
I am always inspired by people who have faced great adversity and overcome it – and not merely overcome, but overcome spectacularly. People like Stephen Hawking and Helen Keller. These were people who faced enormous challenges, overcame them and achieved greatness, Keller in particular. What an awesome woman.
I hope this helps.
What a question to ask? I say this in a very kind way. I am a Christian and I have struggled with why am I transgender for all my life (I am 63)? I go through cycles of having feelings that I am a woman and then guilt overtakes me and I confess it as sin. However, recently I was reading a book and the chapter was on the "Secret things belong to God" This made me think that truly God has made this way. I may not understand the reasons why. I may not understand why? However, I can trust God with this. I know that being TG has a lot of pain associated with it, but there is a lot of good. I don't understand what God is doing, but He does. I know that I am sharing this from a Christian perspective, but maybe it will be helpful to someone.
Quote from: MarshaJoy825 on March 14, 2019, 05:14:19 AM
What a question to ask? I say this in a very kind way. I am a Christian and I have struggled with why am I transgender for all my life (I am 63)? I go through cycles of having feelings that I am a woman and then guilt overtakes me and I confess it as sin.
If it was a "sin" to be born trans*, subsequently it would be a sin to be born with any (other) medical condition (as HRT really helps me, I consider my condition a medical condition).
Being judged "inferior" because of a medical condition is totally unacceptable. It's nazism. Being judged "sinful" (and the bottom line of "sinful" is "inferior") because of a medical condition is the same, it's derogatory and totally unacceptable. Additionally it's superstitious. Luckily, the times of superstition are past (though the battle against darkness is far from over).
In the medieval world and times darkness had fallen upon mankind. Ruled by the church, science had been stomped out, "witches" were hunted and burned. Etc. Faith, religion, spirituality had been entirely institutionalised by the catholic church. Free, awoken spirits were hunted und suppressed "in the name of the Lord"... Killed. All for the sake of power and control over people. Faith and spirituality had been hijacked.
Then, as darkness lightened after centuries, in the 18th century came enlightenment, the age of reason. Reformation, the schism of the church had paved the way in the 16th and 17th century. Free spirits were born. Yes, I loved history lessons.
We should never forget that one famous example for ignorance imposed by the church:
Under the rule of the church, Earth was considered flat, for centuries. Those who observed the sky and, based on their observations, rationally concluded that Earth is spherical were persecuted. Killed. Since the church had taught flat Earth for centuries, these minds who proofed the church wrong seriously questioned its integrity, its credibility and its authority. Therefore they were considered dangerous "heretics". Killed. Except for Galileo Galilei who was smart enough to tell the story right when trialed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei).
Another example of medieval superstition is the fact that in the medieval some children were branded "changelings" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling)...
Babies born handicapped were killed anyway. Those who showed behavioural "abnormalities" later in childhood or adolescence were bound to be stigmatised as "changeling"... So, one of the ultimate threats in medieval times was to be considered a "changeling" when deviant. And killed. This is another reason why everybody adhered to the church and its teachings.
Nowadays SCIENCE understands, defines and treats medical conditions. Still there are many "faithful" smartypants walking this Earth who think they know better. They think their (medieval) beliefs and superstition was superior to reason and science, superior to human spirit.
More of my opinion about the dangers of institutionalised faith, especially of the christian version, in my comment here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=235772.msg2213013#msg2213013
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God is God. People are People. God is perfect. Peoples interpretation of Gods word. Not so much. Religions are so wrong about everything. Has any of them been right? Take for example their continued call for end times. It is not a sin that God has confirmed. It was declared a sin by a Prophet and endorsed by clergy today, known for Profits.
I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual, I think the spiritism theory is the only one that doesn't deny reality and make sense in everything. It involves reincarnation, so that we have a lot of lives. The goal is to evolve and participate in something bigger than us. One life would never be enough. Some must be born in a male body, some others in a female one to experiment everything we need according to where we are in evolving. Others genders of other planets probably exist somewhere and are also part of the picture. Genders that we don't know here of course. Not everything is bound to Earth and having male and female concept. Humans are not the center of the universe. But our soul is probably bound to this planet for a while. Our physical nature tend to imprint our soul with the last gender so we are born in the same gender several times before to switch. Because we are so unique as individuals, the path chosen to involve being a trans is surely complex, but with completely valid reasons. We agreed before any incarnation, that our life will be this one until the next one. At this time, we are helped and we know what we need to do. We know that it will not be easy. Our brain just cannot be created with those memories from the past and the soul's memories cannot join the biology. So we wonder why we are there, and why life seems so unfair. We suffer because we compare to others. They have their own path, and ours is as it looks, probably more harder and complex in some ways. But some people live in the streets, some cannot walk, some will never be able to have kids. It's unfair compared to others, but those things push us through what we need to learn. We are not there to accomplish the societal ideal goals. We are here for something bigger than having a house, a job, and kids. And at some point, every soul get a more complex incarnation, in which everything may seems unfair. It's our turn, this time. We have particular things to do, in a particular background. It leads us to this particular life. I cannot be 100% sure that it's all true, but from everything I read, the whole theory that is too big to explain in a few sentences, is the only one giving sense to everything, the only one compatible and most possible. Knowing that don't remove the pain but when we believe this to be true, the pain has a purpose, and this purpose can change a lot of things. If we think that the goal in life is to mimic everyone perfectly, we will be in pain forever because one individual will never be completely a clone and sadly, it's even not what life is about. Are we loving people because they are common? All the same? No, we love because they are different, very unique. Society want us to be equal in every ways, but it's not our nature, it cannot work. If people would all wake up, there would be no expectations to be all so similar. Similarities would go up to common rules, language and respect, anything else would no matter.
Nature allowed trans to exist, like absolutely everything else present. It means it's natural, it's not a mistake. The universe is extremely well created, beautifully perfect and self maintained, allowing wonders to exist. What is bad, good, beautiful and ugly are for a large percentage programming from the society. It's not from nature, even if nature also admitted our plagued society to exist. Being born in another place and time, like the old native american people, would not have been so hard for trans people. They thought trans were gifted because they get skills of both genders (it was their way to see it), and they respected them. One in the family, was a lucky family as I said in another post. "God" wanted them to exist, and the population asked no question about God's will, they simply embraced it. We are not born in such a place, but my goal was to explain that life itself would not be so hard if it wasn't of the society in which we are in. Do nature care (judge) for you being trans? Do your dog or cat see you as weird? They could even not think you are beautiful, because they are not human so they don't have this programming. The universe want us to be like we are and its will and comprehension is above every human statement.
Adults are just older kids. They are mean, they harm, they do a lot of mistakes. We are all kids on a gigantic playground in a game we created, with rules based on appearances and familiarity. Rules invented, with most having no sense and not compatible with nature. And we come into this, born with a particular path tailored for our very personal needs to learn and things to do very precise, but we don't know about that. We just see this human invented game, we just want to win it, to feel like others and respected. If our path doesn't work with this game, we feel to lose, we feel to never fit, and then we ask why some god would do this to us. I think very advanced beings are guiding the children we are, where we need to be, and the way we need to evolve. And like parents do, they also need to put their kids to challenge, to see them suffer at some point making their own experiences, for the best ways for them to learn. That's also why kids may hate their parents, thinking they don't understand.
Universe is fair with what we have to do here, while humans are not. That's why they need to evolve, that's why we are here.