Backlash as transgender weightlifter qualifies for Commonwealth Games
By: Josh Milton
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/24/backlash-as-transgender-weightlifter-qualifies-for-womens-category-at-commonwealth-games/
Laurel Hubbard has been named to the New Zealand women's weightlifting team for the Commonwealth Games, sparking controversy in the sport.
Hubbard, 39, will be the first transgender sportsperson to represent New Zealand. . . .
However, not all reaction to Hubbard's selection has been positive.
Australian Weightlifting Federation chief executive Michael Keelan on Friday claimed Hubbard would have both a physiological and mental edge over her rivals. . . .
"I personally don't think it's a level playing field. That's my personal view and I think it's shared by a lot of people in the sporting world."
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I'll be the odd one out in this forum and agree with the objections. Particularly in the area of strength I believe that trans women maintain a clear advantage over CIS women even after hormones have changed.
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It's simply not fair atall point blank.
You had T in your system most of your life or still have it you should not be allowed to be in competition against women.
Not fair atall. It's like steroids, it's not fair.
It's unfortunate people who are trans will naturally want to fit in to the role we feel we should be in. But in the case of sports, Testosterone is huge advantage even if it is no longer in the body.
Quote from: Rachel_Christina on November 24, 2017, 09:55:36 AM
It's simply not fair atall point blank.
You had T in your system most of your life or still have it you should not be allowed to be in competition against women.
Not fair atall. It's like steroids, it's not fair.
It's unfortunate people who are trans will naturally want to fit in to the role we feel we should be in. But in the case of sports, Testosterone is huge advantage even if it is no longer in the body.
Considering I lost more than 60 pounds when I began transitioning and most of that was musclemass, I dont really see myself having an advantage over anyone.
Hell I struggle doing things that used to be easy for me.
I feel embarassed needing help lifting things at work.
*shrug.*
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Still if we where training for it we would have an advantage. Especially considering this person already knew they could lift heavier than what they did do to qualify.
The only this could be fair is if a person was on blockers before puberty. And never experienced Ts effects.
My opinion is from my experience. After two years of HRT and undetectable levels of testosterone and no strength training I started lifting weights again. After just six months my squat is between advanced and elite women's standards and my deadlift is at elite women's standards. These standards are defined as: http://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/deadlift
QuoteAdvanced
Stronger than 80% of lifters. An advanced lifter has progressed for over five years.
Elite
Stronger than 95% of lifters. An elite lifter has dedicated over five years to become competitive at strength sports.
Additionally, I didn't even lift weights a whole lot before HRT. I was a runner. There are certainly CIS women a whole lot stronger than I am right now, but they also had to put a whole lot more time and work than I did into getting there. I'm also a lot older than most at an age where improvement is even slower.
So the only conclusion is that a lifetime on fairly high levels of testosterone have effects that linger long after that testosterone is gone.
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The only way it could be fair is if T never happened in youth.
Or in the opposite sense if a Trans guy was lifting as much as the other guys it would be pretty insane.
But a trans woman who has already been lifting for years simply cannot now compete against other women just because she cut the T levels.
I mean if that where the case you could cut the T levels just to pass the tests required and then come back of blockers for training and preparation
Quote from: Rachel_Christina on November 24, 2017, 10:07:21 AM
Still if we where training for it we would have an advantage. Especially considering this person already knew they could lift heavier than what they did do to qualify.
The only this could be fair is if a person was on blockers before puberty. And never experienced Ts effects.
I still frankly have to disagree with you on that point, and thats okay. I know for a fact in my own personal experiences, Ive gone from being able rope several hundred pounds of gear 200 feet in the air on a jinn wheel for 10-12 hours a day, shoulder a 10 foot w8 steel I beam and walk it 300 feet to my job face, or run wheelbarrows full of concrete up ramps with relative ease to struggling wrestling with ALUMINUM scaffolding gear.. And again my activity levels or 'training' regimine hasnt changed. (I shudder to think how many swings I'll take to drive spikes home framing now.. Lol)
This to me is like arguing fighters dropping wight classes to fight in lower levels is cheating also because they know they can compete in heavy weight and want to thump some welterweights around for the lulz
But again were both allowed to disagree. Thats the beauty of the civilized world. :3
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I don't see it as the same thing atall tbh.
It would be like McGregor deciding he feels female (that would be totally fine) and going on to fight women, I simply cannot see that it would be fair.
Unfortunately the effects of testosterone change things.
We all have to deal with that. In general those effects can go unonticed, but things like strength and nervous system have been effected by it. And in the case of someone who was already a competitive power lifter as a man, definitely has an advantage over the girls. Even more so considering they never stopped powerlifting
This is a pretty good article explaining our advantage.
http://daily.barbellshrugged.com/the-new-science-of-muscle-memory/
Quote"Sure, muscle fiber size will decrease with de-training, but the added muscle nuclei from periods of focused growth and strength training will remain for a long time. . . .
This new muscle hypertrophy model may explain the 'muscle memory' phenomenon from the cellular level. While your muscles can't remember anything, the added nuclei do act as a sort of placeholder. This allows the muscle to regrow much faster and efficiently with a future hypertrophic stimulus (like weightlifting).
One thing we don't know is how long these extra nuclei actually stick around. It could be months, years, or forever, we don't know."
Even if one has never trained much at all the presence of higher levels of testosterone result in some increased muscle mass.
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On T I could never chin myself or do pushups. About the only thing I did well in PE was setups. Even today I am pretty sure that with the proper training I would not be competitive with a woman in weight lifting as my body type just doesn't allow upper body strength. Even when you take hormones out of the picture, some people have a body type that allows them to build strength while others don't.
Independent of sex, individual genetic variation plays a big role. Additional factors include.
- Body type; endo/meso/ectomorph
- Muscle insertion points on the bone can increase or decrease leverage
- Arm and leg length. i.e. long arms are an advantage in deadlift and a disadvantage in bench press; longer legs are a disadvantage in squat
- Overall bodyfat levels; more fat allows for more muscle and strength in both men and women.
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Quote from: Rachel_Christina on November 24, 2017, 09:55:36 AM
It's simply not fair atall point blank.
You had T in your system most of your life or still have it you should not be allowed to be in competition against women.
Not fair atall. It's like steroids, it's not fair.
It's unfortunate people who are trans will naturally want to fit in to the role we feel we should be in. But in the case of sports, Testosterone is huge advantage even if it is no longer in the body.
Bunk.
There is sufficient science to support the contention that post-HRT, transgender athletes do not retain any advantage over their cis-women competitors. There exists to this point not a single example of a transgender athlete dominating his or her sport post HRT. Joanna Harper (both a medical physicist and a competitive distance runner) did a small but elegant study which showed that, in fact, transgender women post HRT
performed at the same percentile in their female competitions as they did previously in male competitions.
Trans male athletes, for their part, experience push back because they are injecting testosterone instead of manufacturing it internally, even though they are mandated to prove that their levels fall within expected norms for males. You can't win when arguing with bigots.
Nevertheless, one need not add ones voice to theirs.
The rest of the story, to quote Joanna Harper:
"To be clear: This study speaks only to distance running. Trans women who are sprinters may maintain something of an advantage over other female runners in that they tend to carry more muscle mass, potentially allowing for increased speed over short distances. (Whereas extra muscle mass is a disadvantage in distance running.) And since gender transition doesn't affect height, it would make sense that transgender women would have advantages over other women in sports such as basketball, where size is so important, and disadvantages in sports such as gymnastics, where greater size is an impediment."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-edge-i-sure-dont/2015/04/01/ccacb1da-c68e-11e4-b2a1-bed1aaea2816_story.html?utm_term=.c71779f81d49
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Quote from: rmaddy on November 24, 2017, 01:43:54 PM
Bunk.
There is sufficient science to support the contention that post-HRT, transgender athletes do not retain any advantage over their cis-women competitors. There exists to this point not a single example of a transgender athlete dominating his or her sport post HRT. Joanna Harper (both a medical physicist and a competitive distance runner) did a small but elegant study which showed that, in fact, transgender women post HRT performed at the same percentile in their female competitions as they did previously in male competitions.
Trans male athletes, for their part, experience push back because they are injecting testosterone instead of manufacturing it internally, even though they are mandated to prove that their levels fall within expected norms for males. You can't win when arguing with bigots.
Nevertheless, one need not add ones voice to theirs.
I'm hope your not calling me a bigot, because that I am not.
But someone who has been a powerlifter for a long time as a man and has already spiked their nervous system to heights well beyond that of a female counter part, even though they now are hormonally and socially female, has a massive advantage.
The IOC have recommended that a MTF athlete:
Quotemust demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women's competition)
Presumably the body responsible for each sport would take this requirement seriously on a case by case basis so as to avoid physical advantages over cisfemale competitors. If that body has neglected to do so, it seems unfair to criticise an individual athlete or indeed all trans athletes for the possible failure of the 'system'
In drug testing, a MTF athlete caught with a testosterone level above 10 nmol/L would no longer be able to compete in the female category. As such tests are random and not just confined to competition, one can't simply choose when or not to use blockers to gain some sort of advantage. Doing so would be akin to doping
It also seems to me that in most sports there is much more to success in competition than just the physical prowess of the athlete. From my experience psychology is as important if not more so than sheer strength in gaining those podium positions
What I have noticed personally since starting HRT is that my aggressive, competitive nature has all but gone and it is highly unlikely it will ever get back to the same level as I had last year. Without this, I doubt I'll ever have an advantage over other female cyclists
This seems to be reflected in the comments I have heard from elite and professional MTF athletes. More so, there are plenty of MTF athletes across many sporting disciplines and I have yet to hear of one dominating her field in any way
Quote from: Rachel_Christina on November 24, 2017, 03:08:20 PM
I'm hope your not calling me a bigot, because that I am not.
But someone who has been a powerlifter for a long time as a man and has already spiked their nervous system to heights well beyond that of a female counter part, even though they now are hormonally and socially female, has a massive advantage.
I'm not. I am worried though when you make reference to people flippantly changing their sex to compete. This is exactly the same ploy used by anti-trans activists. I recommend that you reconsider throwing it out there. Hopefully we agree that they are wrong to use it on, say, the bathroom issue.
Factually, I am interested in is what you know that the IOC and IAAF don't.
:police:
I am watching and reading with interest so let's have a full and productive discussion and think twice about our comments and use of language before hitting the send button.
Cindy
I just find it curious that right now after only six months of sub optimal strength training and minimal strength training background I can lift more than many women in my age group and weight class competing at National level powerlifting competitions.
I say suboptimal because I'm trying to maintain a decent running base at the same time.
And before I get flamed, my running speed and pace has decreased about 10% from pre-HRT; one of the main reasons I started lifting - to try and get back that 10%. My strength has increased from pre-HRT.
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Quote from: Deborah on November 24, 2017, 02:23:25 PM
The rest of the story, to quote Joanna Harper:
"To be clear: This study speaks only to distance running. Trans women who are sprinters may maintain something of an advantage over other female runners in that they tend to carry more muscle mass, potentially allowing for increased speed over short distances. (Whereas extra muscle mass is a disadvantage in distance running.) And since gender transition doesn't affect height, it would make sense that transgender women would have advantages over other women in sports such as basketball, where size is so important, and disadvantages in sports such as gymnastics, where greater size is an impediment."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-edge-i-sure-dont/2015/04/01/ccacb1da-c68e-11e4-b2a1-bed1aaea2816_story.html?utm_term=.c71779f81d49
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She left the door open. Still no study exists which validates the idea that trans athletes have an advantage in sprinting, weight lifting, etc, and so far no trans female has become an elite athlete in any sport. The author also opines that people are fine with her competing so long as she never wins. Hers is the only study to date that shows how any athlete ranked within their discipline pre and post transition.
Men have superior lung capacity to women. Do we lose that if we transition?
Quote from: amandam on November 24, 2017, 08:53:18 PM
Men have superior lung capacity to women. Do we lose that if we transition?
We lose red blood cells which in turn reduces the oxygen transport capacity of the blood which in turn lowers VO2max. So aerobic capacity declines. This accounts for the slower running speeds.
Lung capacity itself, assuming we mean lung volume, is not really a factor in performance.
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Quote from: rmaddy on November 24, 2017, 04:51:51 PM
She left the door open. Still no study exists which validates the idea that trans athletes have an advantage in sprinting, weight lifting, etc, and so far no trans female has become an elite athlete in any sport. The author also opines that people are fine with her competing so long as she never wins. Hers is the only study to date that shows how any athlete ranked within their discipline pre and post transition.
There is a somewhat unofficial study in the case of Renee Richards. She was competitive as a male but after her transition she was unable to compete against a top rated female.
Quote from: amandam on November 24, 2017, 08:53:18 PM
Men have superior lung capacity to women. Do we lose that if we transition?
I play on a (women's) soccer team. While it is true that my height makes me well suited to play keeper, I have nowhere near the endurance I had pre-HRT. Whatever fears my teammates and/or opponents had about me joining their league, it quickly vanished when they saw what my capacities really are. When it comes to running, I used to finish top 10 in local races. I can barely finish them now. And, I'm much slower on the sprint. Nevertheless, this is just my experience.
So I ask again, what do you know that the IAAF, IOC, and NCAA do not, and to what trans athletes can you point as an example of their supposed advantage?
I have read some studies pointing out that post MTF transition there is nearly zero testosterone and recovery times increase quite a bit. That would be a lot more work build or train. There are other studies pointing out that where physical dimensions count, say reach for arm leverage, there may be some benefit post as that structure does not change. I suspect this will be studied and discussed for some additional time as there is possibly a bit of bias here and there.
Quote from: MistressStevie on November 24, 2017, 11:45:12 PM
I have read some studies pointing out that post MTF transition there is nearly zero testosterone...
Correct. In order to compete, trans athletes need to demonstrate levels <7 ng/dl. Typical female levels are 20-90. If, as some are saying, testosterone is some sort of a trump card in sport, the trans athlete doesn't hold it.
It is true that skeletal size pre-transition remains, but what happens is that transfemales end up with musculature insufficient to move that skeleton around. The only trans athletes I know to have competed in the Olympics are FTM. Correct me if I'm wrong, and then I'll have one more thing to feel good about today.
The problem with relying on "common sense" is that the world is more complicated than it seems. After thorough study, and without serious evidence-based objection, every major governing body of athletics has concluded that transgender athletes pose no threat whatsoever to fair competition.
It's not all about testosterone levels. The smaller hips and broad shoulders allow for more raw power, which is an enormous advantage in fighting sports. I believe those of us who transitioned after puberty shouldn't compete against cis women in combat sports.
I would be willing to bet bone structure offers an advantage in power lifting as well.
Quote from: rmaddy on November 24, 2017, 04:51:51 PM
She left the door open. Still no study exists which validates the idea that trans athletes have an advantage in sprinting, weight lifting, etc,
And no study exists that suggest there is no advantage. There are only assumptions based on post puberty testosterone levels that posit that strength is based solely on current testosterone levels. We know this is false.
Quoteand so far no trans female has become an elite athlete in any sport.
That's meaningless unless you compare it to the number of trans females that have attempted to be elite athletes. It's also not surprising given that most until now have transitioned past the prime age of even becoming an elite athlete.
QuoteThe author also opines that people are fine with her competing so long as she never wins.
Of course. So if someone is actually good enough to win then it's no longer acceptable to compete?
Before HRT I nearly always placed in the top 10 percent overall in any distance, from 5K to marathon, of any local race I ran and usually won or placed in the top three of my age group (>50). The only women that ever beat me, and they were few, were from the local University cross country team and they were 35 years younger than me. So it's not unreasonable to guess that if I put my mind to seriously training again I could beat most of the women and certainly the ones in my age group, even if I was running 10 to 20 percent slower. But according to your evidence that would not be acceptable. How are you ok with that?
Just to be certain I'm not talking out of place I looked up some recent race results and I would certainly have placed second, if not first, right now with mediocre training, for my age group. I run faster in six mile training runs with my legs blasted from powerlifting that all but the winner ran in the 5K. The winner ran 25 percent slower than I was running 5Ks four years ago.
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I hate myself for saying so, but I can't see how growing up in a male body can't have a permanent effect even after HRT and SRS.
Apart from the muscle nuclei, there is increased length, and possibly thickness, of the long bones, that is not going to be eliminated by HRT. The MAAB trans athlete may not exceed her FAAB opponents in any dimensions, but those dimensions could still have been smaller if she had not grown up in a male body.
It may be different for trans women who had T-blockers in childhood, but I heard somewhere that even T-blockers might temporarily cause extra growth, by causing the pituitary to work harder and by cutting off the puberty signal to stop growing. For the same reason, ancient eunuchs were often remarkably tall.
Having said that, I approve of trans women competing against cis women. I just understand why some cis women might have other ideas.
With bigger bones, are the tendons, etc. bigger and stronger also? If they get weaker, how much? There are so many things besides muscle mass that can "potentially" tip the odds. Has there been a study of endurance and strength between females and trans at say, years 1,3,5,10?
I bet if Caitlyn Jenner transitioned in her 20's, that not only would she win a women's decathlon, she'd outclass all other competitors by a large margin.
<Misgendering corrected by moderator>
Quote from: amandam on November 25, 2017, 11:07:16 AM
With bigger bones, are the tendons, etc. bigger and stronger also? If they get weaker, how much?
Bone density and tendon strength are related because both are dependent on the stress put upon them by the muscles. If one exercises, particularly with weights but also with running, the bones will become denser and the tendons stronger to compensate for the stress induced by the working muscles. If the muscles get weaker or one becomes sedentary both bones and tendons will get weaker over time.
That's why the best antidote to aging and osteoporosis is exercise, both aerobic and strength training.
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Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2017, 10:34:40 AM
Before HRT I nearly always placed in the top 10 percent overall in any distance, from 5K to marathon, of any local race I ran and usually won or placed in the top three of my age group (>50). The only women that ever beat me, and they were few, were from the local University cross country team and they were 35 years younger than me. So it's not unreasonable to guess that if I put my mind to seriously training again I could beat most of the women and certainly the ones in my age group, even if I was running 10 to 20 percent slower. But according to your evidence that would not be acceptable. How are you ok with that?
You were highly competitive before you transitioned and you would be highly competitive afterwards. This is precisely what the Harper study observed--one tends to compete at the same level relative to women that one previously did relative to men. What's wrong with that?
And, getting beyond the point of performance, no one transitions to compete just as no one transitions to use a different bathroom. Transgender equality includes equality of opportunity. It boggles my mind that the majority of the participants in this thread seem to think it would be some sort of injustice if a trans woman did well in a sport, and use the same justifications that transphobic bigots use to exclude us from other areas of the public sphere.
What the heck is that, really?
Quote from: rmaddy on November 25, 2017, 03:19:15 PM
You were highly competitive before you transitioned and you would be highly competitive afterwards. This is precisely what the Harper study observed--one tends to compete at the same level relative to women that one previously did relative to men. What's wrong with that?
The difference is that to be highly competitive in the past my running training load was three times greater than it is now complete with lactate threshold and speed work. Plus I wasn't lifting weights at the same time which works against building aerobic capacity.
The point is that it's about an order of magnitude easier to be highly competitive now.
In strength I've achieved in six months what you would expect to take at least a few years for a CIS woman. I did that after 2+ years of HRT and with undetectable levels of testosterone, much lower than the average CIS woman. Before that I hadn't even touched a weight of any sort for nearly four years.
How can any of this be if simply lowering testosterone evens the playing field.
The reason I care is not to fuel the bigots but because winning a medal in an athletic competition is a huge accomplishment, even for amateurs. If I and others hold some kind of competitive advantage not possible for any CIS woman to have as I believe we do then we are stealing someone else's accomplishment. This is not only unfair to them it's sure to fuel resentment and works against our cause. Additionally, if I can now get medals with 1/3rd the training effort it cheapens the whole thing for me.
Beyond that, I agree that nobody transitions just to compete. The issue also is probably moot for those that transition before puberty.
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Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2017, 03:40:31 PM
The difference is that to be highly competitive in the past my running training load was three times greater than it is now complete with lactate threshold and speed work. Plus I wasn't lifting weights at the same time which works against building aerobic capacity.
The point is that it's about an order of magnitude easier to be highly competitive now.
In strength I've achieved in six months what you would expect to take at least a few years for a CIS woman. I did that after 2+ years of HRT and with undetectable levels of testosterone, much lower than the average CIS woman. Before that I hadn't even touched a weight of any sort for nearly four years.
How can any of this be if simply lowering testosterone evens the playing field.
The reason I care is not to fuel the bigots but because winning a medal in an athletic competition is a huge accomplishment, even for amateurs. If I and others hold some kind of competitive advantage not possible for any CIS woman to have as I believe we do then we are stealing someone else's accomplishment. This is not only unfair to them it's sure to fuel resentment and works against our cause. Additionally, if I can now get medals with 1/3rd the training effort it cheapens the whole thing for me.
Beyond that, I agree that nobody transitions just to compete. The issue also is probably moot for those that transition before puberty.
I don't think you can infer that your experience is typical, particularly in response to a study of trans women competing in the same sport as you do which lays down considerable evidence against your contention.
Beyond that, I think we just disagree. If I may (and feel free to contest this if you think I am misrepresenting) I think the competing arguments are:
1. Transgender women may have advantage in competition post transition such that they might win unfairly. They should therefore not compete.
2. Transgender women are legally no different from other women, therefore rules to treat them so are unjust. There is no evidence that anyone transitions to game the system. Let them compete.
I personally think you put way too much emphasis on "finding the true winner" and not nearly enough on social justice. I am sensitive to your point that we wouldn't want to harm our cause by appearing to go too far. Nevertheless, this is settled law since Renee Richard won her case against the USTA in 1977 at the New York Supreme Court. Do you think this needs to be relitigated? Why?
Quote from: rmaddy on November 25, 2017, 06:49:27 PM
I personally think you put way too much emphasis on "finding the true winner" and not nearly enough on social justice. I am sensitive to your point that we wouldn't want to harm our cause by appearing to go too far. Nevertheless, this is settled law since Renee Richard won her case against the USTA in 1977 at the New York Supreme Court. Do you think this needs to be relitigated? Why?
I see it as a violation of social justice to impose an unfair advantage on other competitors. We'll just have to agree that we view this issue differently.
I have no position on the law. Lawyers will do what they will do and legal justice often has at best a tenuous relationship with right and wrong.
The athletic governing bodies though ought to be concerned with athletic fairness and not with social justice at all.
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Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2017, 07:09:19 PM
The athletic governing bodies though ought to be concerned with athletic fairness and not with social justice at all.
Why do you think they are not? And where are all the transgender super athletes?
Quote from: rmaddy on November 25, 2017, 11:21:12 PM
Why do you think they are not? And where are all the transgender super athletes?
I am willing to admit that possibly my argument is flawed in regards to running only. But it is not flawed in regards to strength sports; the topic of this thread. The athletic governing bodies have no evidence for their decision in regards to strength. There is no study in existence and anecdotal evidence suggests they are wrong. I provided a possible scientific explanation for this in an earlier post and the author of the study for running that you quoted (a study that itself was based of an extremely limited sample size) said that her results do not apply to strength dominated events.
If and when someone can produce a legitimate study demonstrating that I am wrong then I'll admit that I'm wrong.
As far as where are the athletes, we can start with the one in the article quoted in the opening post. A quick internet search turns up others:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/champion-runner-lauren-jeska-jailed-for-attempted-of-uk-athletics-official-ralph-knibbs
http://www.courant.com/sports/high-schools/hc-hs-cromwell-track-andraya-yearwood-0407-20170406-story.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
http://golfweek.com/2010/10/13/who-former-long-drive-champ-lana-lawless/
And then there is simply my case. I did some googling last night and found out that in at least one world class powerlifting meet I could right now place (not win) in my age and weight group for women and I am far from being anywhere close to an elite athlete. I'm not even very big with flexed biceps less than 13 inches after a few months of training and with very little prior exposure to the sport. I was also never particularly strong at any time before HRT.
To avoid being misunderstood, this has nothing to do with their identity which I support. It's only a matter of athletic fairness.
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Quote from: Daisy Jane on November 25, 2017, 09:47:43 AM
It's not all about testosterone levels. The smaller hips and broad shoulders allow for more raw power, which is an enormous advantage in fighting sports. I believe those of us who transitioned after puberty shouldn't compete against cis women in combat sports.
I would be willing to bet bone structure offers an advantage in power lifting as well.
Thank you! This is very true. I feel people need to be fair here. Genetic Women experience alot of disadvantages in life, and the whole point of Gender Classes in sport is so to create a level playing field.
By all means any one who is trans can take place in any athletic activity they wish to do so, however to suggest that having male skeletal structure or previous muscle memory is not an advantage is not realistic.
I have years around sports, know a few elite atheletes both male and female, and know a few MTF bodybuilders. So theres some perspective here.
In activites where power, ie strength and speed, and muscle force are the main factor, a MTF individual even post SRS has a big advantage. Bone stucture, narrow hips, muscle points of inserts, muscle memory......
Just something to reflect on
Mens 100m WR 9.59 Second fastest time 9.63
Womens 100m WR 10.49* (wind guage was faulty) Second fastest time 10.61
Mens 400m WR 43.01
Womens 400m WR 47.60 (East German Athelte who later admitted Testosterone usage)
As Trans Women we should respect that we are different to GGs. We are just as valid in our identity however we are different. There should be respect that we have to give GGs space in certain activities. For what it is worth, the fact some Activists find this hard to accept, makes it harder for Trans people to gain overall acceptance.
Sports are supposed to be a level playing field.
A class for Trans gender athletes is prehaps long overdue.....
As for where are the elite Trans Athletes, I would wager alot of money theres more than one like Phillipa York, who grew up as Robert Millar who was a world class Cyclist. Some Trans people may seek to transition post atheltic career. So far Im yet to see an elite athlete transition on the job so to speak, ie mid career. If they did, expect to see them beat any Genetic Female Times / Achivements.
If anyone finds my post offensive, I would suggest you look as to why you do so? Please accept there is a big difference between prejudice and being someone who can see as Trans women we have a duty to not seek to impose ourselves on Genetic Womens spaces unless invited. ....
If this gets deleted, well I will give up on this site......
Women from different ethnic backgrounds might have advantages in some events, women with abnormally high t levels may have an advantage in some events, tall women may have an advantage in some events, so what. Is she a woman? If yes, compete with women. There are you know, many different types of women, with many different types of conditions that will advantage or disadvantage them at certain events. We don't ban any other groups, why pick on trans women?
What do I know tho and I have never cared for sports.
See this article on female muscle potential. If it is true then simply changing our hormones won't have a huge effect on strength. By increasing estrogen other factors come into play and we start off at a higher starting point. Testosterone is NOT the "end all" in strength building
https://bayesianbodybuilding.com/natural-muscular-potential-women/
QuoteWomen gain the same percentage of muscle mass as men during strength training. In fact, women gain as much size and sometimes more strength than men. The only difference is the starting point. Men start off with more muscle mass and more strength, but the relative increase in muscle size is the same between men and women.
Research on protein metabolism comes to the same conclusion. Women build just as much muscle protein after training and after meals as men. In fact, one study found that given the same level of muscle mass, women have a higher rate of muscle protein synthesis than men.
How can this be? Testosterone functions differently in men and women, as I explained in my BioSignature review. In animals we have a good understanding of why testosterone is not needed for muscle development in women. It seems growth factors like IGF-1 and growth hormone take over the anabolic role that testosterone has in men. Growth factors are more important for strength and muscle mass in women than in men. Since women have just as much IGF-1 as men and women produce ~3 times as much growth hormone as men, this explains in part why having less testosterone does not limit how much muscle they can build. To make matters more complex, the sex hormones and growth factors interact and all these hormones also interact with your genes.
In short, saying women have less potential to build muscle mass because they don't have as much testosterone as men is shortsighted.
Before you point out some huge males, realize that most of them in the sport are on anabolic steroids.
You can argue that none of this matters and social justice is the overriding concern. But the general public is going to be much more reluctant and as I stated above I think that at least at this point in history it undermines our cause.
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Quote from: Alexa Ares on November 26, 2017, 04:50:47 AM
Sports are supposed to be a level playing field.
The playing field is never level. LaBron James certainly has immense talent, but that's not all he has. He is in the 99.9th percentile for height, without which his talent and effort wouldn't matter. Elite runners also have an ideal physique that has been thoroughly studied and characterized. Yes, they work hard, but they were also born with it.
The Commonwealth Games are about more than who wins and loses. They are an embodiment of British spirit and British values. They are about doing one's best on the field and off, and reuniting through sport a once mighty Empire.
Propose your solution. What? Banning trans athletes from competition? Why not the military then?
Quote from: rmaddy on November 26, 2017, 01:09:01 PM
The Commonwealth Games are about more than who wins and loses. They are an embodiment of British spirit and British values. They are about doing one's best on the field and off, and reuniting through sport a once mighty Empire.
Those were the days. I have a pang for that amateur idealism. Nearly all top athletes are professionals, nowadays, though. If it was ever really true that it was not about winning and losing, it is no longer so.
Being mentally and politically equal is not the same as being physically identical. Trans women, especially those who transitioned in adulthood, are still not physically identical to cis women. For example, I wish that SRS would enable us to conceive and have babies, but wishin' don't make it so.
I am in favour of trans women competing against cis women. However, cis women athletes who don't like the idea have reasonable arguments. Until an adult male skeleton is proven to have no advantage in strength sports, many cis women are not going to feel that they are on an even playing field. There is no war between cis people and trans people. Trans people do not have a duty to unite on every issue that affects them.
And the fact that this is settled law, for decades, makes no difference?
Quote from: rmaddy on November 27, 2017, 08:49:13 PM
And the fact that this is settled law, for decades, makes no difference?
Clearly the law, as well as Olympic committee rules, make a difference. That is why Laurel Hubbard has been allowed to compete. I'm glad that she has been allowed to compete. However, I think that those who think otherwise have made reasonable arguments that have not been fully countered.
I don't think that there is such a thing as settled law. As long as some people think that they are unfair, laws and rules will be debated and sometimes changed. Trans people don't always have to be on the side of trans athletes in this debate. All people should be on the side they they regard as the true and just side. Clearly, not all trans people agree on which side that is, and that's okay.
Established law simply defines what is legal or illegal. It doesn't necessarily establish right over wrong or moral over immoral.
All one needs to do is look at some examples such as the laws that once established slavery as legal in the United States or many laws in repressive countries today.
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Quote from: Deborah on November 28, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
Established law simply defines what is legal or illegal. It doesn't necessarily establish right over wrong or moral over immoral.
All one needs to do is look at some examples such as the laws that once established slavery as legal in the United States or many laws in repressive countries today.
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Well yes, but I call BS on the comparison to slavery or repression.
Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
Bone density and tendon strength are related because both are dependent on the stress put upon them by the muscles. If one exercises, particularly with weights but also with running, the bones will become denser and the tendons stronger to compensate for the stress induced by the working muscles. If the muscles get weaker or one becomes sedentary both bones and tendons will get weaker over time.
Bear with me here, I'm not a doctor, just wondering something. If a man has larger bones, he probably has larger tendon connections to those bones. If so, those connections do not shrink even if tendons atrophy during transition. If "she" then trains again, isn't the development of those tendons, because of the associated tendon to bone connection, superior to cis females? Would it be the same case with tendon to muscle connections? The connections are the same size as always so development can be superior? Or would the actual tendon to bone and tendon to muscle connections reduce in size as well?
Quote from: amandam on December 02, 2017, 12:23:45 AM
Bear with me here, I'm not a doctor, just wondering something. If a man has larger bones, he probably has larger tendon connections to those bones. If so, those connections do not shrink even if tendons atrophy during transition. If "she" then trains again, isn't the development of those tendons, because of the associated tendon to bone connection, superior to cis females? Would it be the same case with tendon to muscle connections? The connections are the same size as always so development can be superior? Or would the actual tendon to bone and tendon to muscle connections reduce in size as well?
I'm not sure that the tendon to bone connections are going to make a big difference except maybe in providing resistance to injury.
Strength itself is dependent on the nervous system's ability to recruit increasing numbers of muscle fibers to contract together to produce force as well as each individual muscle fiber's contractile strength and ability to store fuel and quickly regenerate ATP after each contraction. All of these things improve with training. It also depends on the distribution of type 1, 2A, and 2B muscle fibers in any given muscle. This is largely genetic but training has some effect. The tendon itself connects the muscle fiber bundles to the bone allowing for the lever action around a joint but doesn't provide any contractile force of its own.
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Heavy exercise causes the thickening of bones as well as muscle growth. There must be a reason that the body has evolved in that way, so the thickened bones must provide some advantage when physical stress is involved. Laurel Hubbard's competitors may be concerned that she not only has the skeleton of an adult male, but the skeleton of an adult male weightlifting champion to boot.
Like I said, I am glad that she is competing but I understand the concerns about fairness.