Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Community Conversation => Non-binary talk => Topic started by: Sevan on October 27, 2011, 05:34:52 pm

Title: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 27, 2011, 05:34:52 pm
Words trip us up. Language has holes. Can we fill them in? Such as:

Man          Woman       Androgyn(e)
He            She             Ze/Per
His            Her(s)         Hir(s)/Pers (hir pronounced "hear")
Boy           Girl              Nute
Sir             Ma'am         Mir (?)
Mr.            Mrs.             Mz./Mx (pronounced "mix") (?)
Husband   Wife            Hersband (suppose this only works for our FtA's, but perhaps not the other direction? Or maybe it does work for both)
Boyfriend  Girlfriend     Spouse/Mate/Partner/Lovie/Ladydudefriend/Nutefriend
Father       Mother       ??
Dad           Mom           Mada(?)
Brother     Sister          Broster(?)
Uncle        Aunt            ??
Nephew    Niece          ??
Grandpa   Grandma     ??

and I'm sure there are PLENTY more I'm not listing...but I think it's these words that hinder people from using gender neutral expressions. While we've accepted ze/hir in this house (and I know some here on this board don't like those even...but they work for me.) but even with those in place...there's still so much missing. We've created "hersband" and "mir" out of necessity in my peer group and I like them (personally) but I'm REALLY stuck on something in place of Uncle/Aunt and my neice and nephew have resorted to just calling me by name when everyone else in their life has a proper title. I have to admit...that stings some. I don't know why they won't just call me "aunt Sevan" but...I get that in their mind, due to my gender..."aunt" doesn't fit, and they're calling me by name out of respect and recognition of my gender...but I have to lose familiar respect? Sucks...honestly. I'd love (VERY very much) if we could find, or create words to flesh out the language.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: cynthialee on October 27, 2011, 06:33:36 pm
I agree!

:)
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: mimpi on October 28, 2011, 06:40:25 am
To be perfectly honest it doesn't really bother me that much, my second language is Italian and I don't think twice about why a city is feminine or a train is masculine or indeed using the polite "You/Lei" (she) when talking to a man. It won't change even if we wish it to and there really isn't much we can do about it. Frankly I'm not sure I could manage to speak as a female in Italian as the decades of speaking as a male are so ingrained in my brain it would be really hard not to slip up.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: Sevan on October 28, 2011, 11:21:32 am
I'm glad to hear that language isn't a problem for you but won't you play along and help those of us who are  bothered by language? I know that you aren't alone in your view and often pronouns aren't an issue for me...I frequently say that I didn't transition for pronouns...I transitioned to be my core self. However if we really think about it...we're not the ones using pronouns anyway. It's those around us that use them. Those around me have become increasingly uncomfortable using female pronouns for me. It's them that want something more suiting. They has asked me for better language and in many ways...I've got nothing for them. I've got language with holes. Like my niece and nephew who know me as androgyn, have seen me in full male mode and full female mode and they feel uncomfortable calling me "aunt" anymore....we just don't have word to turn to.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: mimpi on October 28, 2011, 11:48:43 am
My apologies, Sevan, it was not my intention to offend you :)

The point I was attempting to make is that language will not change whatever we may wish. Also I tried to make the point that in Italian one speaks differently as a man or as a woman when it comes to the past participle used with the verb 'essere/to be' as in 'sono stato/sono stata' etc. So not only is it others that refer to one as he or she etc but also one has to change how one refers to one's own actions.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: Sevan on October 28, 2011, 12:25:53 pm
You've not offended me. We're having a conversation! I'm not mad in the slightest...just posing that it's not even for us...these words. It's about us, but not really for us to use. I understand you're coming from an Italian perspective. I remember a thread not so long ago started by you, asking what feels like a similar question.
I know we likely can't change the whole world but I'm not trying to. I'm trying to create words that *i* can use and give to those around me that wish to address me in a gender neutral way.
When I started transitioning, and started using testosterone I came up with the expression FtA. It felt right. I used that term here on Susan's and I now see people I've never talked to...using that term. I'll be humble and say perhaps they went through the same thougt process as me. Perhaps they never saw me use it..but perhaps they did. You never know how words might spread. Slang in America works this way. Someone comes up with a word and it spreads like wild fire.
Though again, I'm not so much trying to spread anything...but mearly looking for words for *me* to use with those around me. I've come up with some words, but many that i've listed here stump me.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: cynthialee on October 28, 2011, 01:02:31 pm
English does not rely on as much gendering as the Latin languages.
Many languages do have differant words for each gender.
Like when I worked in a Thai restaurant, when ever the cook had a meal ready for one of the waitresses he would say a couple words, then when he would put up an order for the waiter he would say the same words just a little diferant at the end.
After a few days I had to ask why he said "order up" in Thai diferant ways for the man and woman.
He just stared at me blank for a few seconds then one of the younger ones that was more westernized explained to me that there are a ton of words in Thai that men say one way and women say anouther and that the words you speak to females are diferant slightly than what you say to a male.
I didn't understand the why of it and neither did the young Thai dude that was explaining it to me. It just is that way with Thai folks.

But I digress:

We rearely use pronouns for ourselves. Talking about oneself in the third person is just a tad odd so we tend to avoid that.
Pronouns are for others.

When Sevan transitioned I was a little sad that there is no special word for an androgyn spouse.
If my spouse is male, then I have a husband.
If my spouse is female, then I have a wife.
But there was no term for an androgyn spouse. Then I encountered a word coined by a lesbian couple. Hersband.
It is perfect! Sevan is my hersband. That so very acuratly speaks to our relationship that I had to adopt it.
Now a number of people in our life have taken to refering to Sevan as my Hersband also. NEAT! The language is changeing in our circle of friends.

Keep in mind English is a hodgepodge of diferant languages that is constantly evolving. English lends itself well to the incorperation of new words and language uses. It is not very ridged. It might seem so on some levels but it actually changes substantialy over time.

Anyways...
We need words that lend themselves to easily being understood and picked up by others. The term Hersband is a good example of a word that is very simple to understand just from looking at the root words it derives from.
HER(S) female
hus/BAND male spouse

We have a female/male spouse from this word. That sounds pretty androgynous to me. And it is a fun sounding word. Words with a fun sound or a twist on other words are well received by English speakers. So this word works well on a few levels for an English speaker.

The next androgyn word we really need is one to fill the place that Aunt and Uncle take up for female and male when speaking of the siblings of ones parents ann thier spouses.

Something that fills the void in boyfriend/girlfriend would be nice. Androgynefriend just doesn't have the right sound or feel. But that stems from the lack of a word that follows Boy, Girl. (blank for androgyne)

Anyways.

This is really just me keeping the topic at the top, cause it is important to our family.

:)
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: ativan on October 28, 2011, 01:30:12 pm
With this as a universal language problem, Englishly speaking, I for one think it is of enough importance for it to be pinned to the top.
How many times have I seen it come up? especially newcomers. You can almost feel the disapointment that the language used here is binary.
Go ahead and make a mental list of words that rightfully are androgyn and not some bastardization of binary language as it is used here.
Catch phrases and words are always being made up that reflect binary useage.
You would think at least some of these problem areas would have the words we seek.
Could we borrow from other languages?

I think this topic needs to be pinned.

Thank you in advance!,
Ativan
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: Vincent E.S. on October 28, 2011, 03:09:14 pm
I was actually going to post a thread over here asking about how you folk do things like this, but it's already been made.

Well, if we continue the combination of the male/female, what about Auntle?
I do agree that something needs to be done and that some words are in desperate need of being invented. Perhaps as knowledge and information get out about how A is just as valid a gender as B or G, androgyn specific words (rather than combinations of male/female terms)will be invented and become commonplace.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: Sevan on October 28, 2011, 07:12:38 pm
With this as a universal language problem, Englishly speaking, I for one think it is of enough importance for it to be pinned to the top.
How many times have I seen it come up? especially newcomers. You can almost feel the disapointment that the language used here is binary.
Go ahead and make a mental list of words that rightfully are androgyn and not some bastardization of binary language as it is used here.
Catch phrases and words are always being made up that reflect binary useage.
You would think at least some of these problem areas would have the words we seek.
Could we borrow from other languages?

I think this topic needs to be pinned.

Thank you in advance!,
Ativan

I would love for this to be pinned. I agree, this does come up alot. Many new comers start with language, and many of our allies come here with language questions because they want to be supportive of their non-binary friends.

At this time in the process of getting the word out about non-binary/androgyn/third gender folks I think we still need to utilize binary words because that's going to be easily recognizable. When I tell people the pronouns I like: ze/hir they often wrinkle their nose...it's very different and not easily accessible. They will often reject them because it doesn't work easily into their language. I even know another 3rd gender person IRL who rejects *my* preferred pronouns! I mean...come on.

However, just like Cynthia has said...when words are fun or feel silly or easy...they readily accept them and use them. Hersband is one of those that people really like and easily accept. Mir is one that people think of themselves when I bring up the topic of "hmm I need to find a word that's the same as sir/ma'am" and I've had two people say "Mir!" before I can even get to the part where I say "I thought of Mir" so that seems like the quickest and easiest to people's mind.

I think with a binary world (and come on...it is.) trying to create completely new, non binary words that we can't point to their (binary)root they're more likely to be rejected.

If I said "Meep" is the new gender neutral aunt/uncle...well, it's a fun word, rolls right off the tongue but...what's the root? What's the connection? There is none! I just made it up. I think because of that...it doesn't stick so well....I don't know. That's my thought. I want there to be reason because people WILL ask "What does it mean? What's it's root? How did you come up with that?" and if my response is "Well...it came to my very silly mind and I said it and thus...it is." I don't think people will see the validity in that. And since I ultimately want *them* to use these words...not really me...I want to cater to them and their reasoning. 

I don't know...this stuff is hard. But all the more reason to discuss it and bring in as many minds as we can. :)

Just wanted to say...Meep came to mind because it's something we made up as the name of our cat. She's a pretty white persian kitty...her name is Meep.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: Sevan on October 28, 2011, 07:17:19 pm
Also...I think taking from other languages might suit us quite well. That's a totally American thing. Take from other languages. I've heard of other cultures that accept 3, 4, 5 and upwards of 7 genders. They MUST have language for these genders! I don't know what they are though. I can't find them. I'd thought that just finding their words and stealing them and making them mine would be the easiest but it turns out...not so much. Though my google-fu isn't as strong as perhaps other people's google-fu.
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: ativan on October 28, 2011, 07:38:05 pm
I think you should change the title to reflect more of what has been the first few revelations of how this might work.
Aunt and Uncle are tuffy's, does anyone have a familiar background in language differences?
Such as a and o the end of the word differentiates whether it is male or female?
And other cultures that already have 3rd gender incorporated into their language is a very good idea.

If we can find the androgynous solution (I really like it) and even get a sub forum, hey a few well chosen words and maybe...

Ativan (the watched)
Title: Re: Words....fill in the blank
Post by: Kinkly on October 28, 2011, 08:02:52 pm
In the real word gender neutral terms work well (at least for me)  I agree that we need non binary terms for ourselves but getting acceptance of that from outside the non binary community is going to take some time
Male         Female    Person
Man          Woman   Adult
Boy           Girl         Child
Husband   Wife        Spouse
Brother     Sister      Sibling
Father      Mother    Parent
son          Daughter  Child
Sir            Ma'am     ??
Mr.           Mrs.         ??
Boyfriend Girlfriend  Lover
Uncle       Aunt        ??*
Nephew    Niece       ??*
I really wish I knew a gender Neutral for *

Most of the time People don't sir or ma'am me in shops most of the time it is May I help you,  I have heard that the sir/ ma'am bit is more common in the USA then here in Australia
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 28, 2011, 08:32:16 pm
Ok. Title is changed  ;D

I'll happily edit the first post with any terms we come up with and agree to, or any new terms we need to come up with. So that way term requests and terms that have been come up with wont get lost in the middle. :)

I think focus on "boy/girl" would suit us well because that'd take care of two things. "Boy/Girl" and "Boyfriend/Girlfriend" which I think are really useful in general for more than...just me. lol! :)

Hmmmm it doesn't follow the "o" ending for male and "a" ending for female...so I'm not really sure where to go for androgyn version....

Kinkly we use those as well but the thing of most of your suggestions...is that they are suitable for all persons. They're not gender specific which might suit some, or even most...but I want something that's specific for me. Men are men, Woman are women...I'd like some recognition as well since...it seems so important to so many. (still haven't figured out why, but I can work with it...if I have the language.)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: cynthialee on October 28, 2011, 08:37:53 pm
but the gender nutral ones are kinda dry and do not really speak to androgyn. Those are the generic words ussed when gender is not a known factor.
With androgyn the gender is known....androgyn.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on October 28, 2011, 09:10:06 pm
I've made this topic a "stickie" as requested :).

This subject interests me a lot. In some languages (swedish is one example), aunt and uncle are even divided into whether they're the mother's or father's brother/sister.

I remember reading Woman On The Edge Of Time back in my 20's and being struck by the idea of people in the (carefully imperfect) utopia Marge Piercy was writing about using a gender-neutral set of pronouns based around "person" - so instead of saying "he/she is over there" they'd say "person is over there", and instead of saying "that's his/her house" they'd say "that's per house". I like it because it mostly sidesteps the "trying to combine the two existing pronouns" trap - I say mostly, because "per" sounds like "her", but then Marge is an ardent feminist :).
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 28, 2011, 09:28:08 pm
Firstly, thank you for the pin!  ;D

Secondly...a "person/per" set is most interesting. Hmmm.

Thirdly, I altered the origional thread to include a few more for us to ponder. ya know...cuz we didn't have enough already! Though..some may prove easier than others. Such as Dad, Mom, Mada! I like it myself. And actually have my god son using something similar. Prior to my coming out, and thinking about all this variety of stuff; he called me Sama. A combination of my name and mama. :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on October 28, 2011, 09:39:53 pm
I was supposed to be godfather to my dear friend's son - but then I wasn't allowed to attend the christening (which was in a chapel at St Paul's Cathedral!) because I'm an ordained Buddhist, so we decided I'm his ungodlyfather instead :). My friend recently asked me to be his younger son's ungodlyfather too (which really moved me) so I had to explain to him that I was happy to, so long as he was happy that I was in the process of becoming their ungodlymother instead ;D. I like ungodlymother better than ungodlyparent, because it sounds like something out of a fairy tale :).

I'm a slightly atypical bod, in that I'm an MTF who wants SRS, because I want the female body I'm supposed to have started with - but in terms of gender, I identify way more out in the forest, and tend to describe myself as a tomboy if pushed. As such, I notice that I'm a lot less bothered by the pronouns strangers use for me than I thought I would be - what matters to me is what I know I am, and I'm always going to present as pretty ambiguous, I suspect.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on October 28, 2011, 10:06:14 pm
Lets see whats out there from languages that have 3rd gender terms. Maybe tie them to us with some of the Latin root of words.
Right now I'm to full of Vicodin to do much of anything. I think a bad movie on my bed tv is it for the nite.

I'm lik'n this.

Ativan, the watched one.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Jaimey on October 29, 2011, 01:18:49 am
I really prefer just using "they" when referring to someone who either isn't binary or when I just don't know.  I think it's difficult to try and create new words because people who aren't familiar with the non binary aren't going to understand it (I know, we can explain it, but still) and probably aren't going to adopt it.  But that's just me.  I tend to go right for the more logistical angle.  Plus, "they" is already an acceptable singular pronoun when the gender is unknown, or in many cases, non binary (I don't care what any English teacher says...if it is used and understood by most native speakers, it's acceptable.  There is no standard English!!!!  ...I'll get off my "acceptable English" soapbox now).

As for titles, though...that's harder.  I think that's where you can be more individualized about it.  For example, I have some friends who, while being totally white Americans, spent a lot of time in Turkey as children and they use the Turkish word for mother for their mom.  It's kind of adorable, I have to admit.  I also find that having a special nickname for someone can make you feel more bonded to them...if that makes sense.  My great aunt is called "Nonnie" for example, even though it's nothing close to her name and my grandmother (her sister) was always called "Sissy" by everyone but her immediate family.  There's something nice about that.  As for standard terms...I don't know.  All I can think about are the logistics of it.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on October 29, 2011, 04:50:58 am
Agreed, I like "they/their" too, and it has a very long history of being acceptable in usage as a singular, so raspberries to snobby English teachers.

Invented pronouns are always going to have limited take-up, like any neologism - and will be particularly resisted by anyone who is firmly wedded to binary gender concepts. It's tiresome what people will do "on principle" - I got ordained 14 years ago as a Buddhist, and I still have people around me who knew me before, who refuse to let themselves try to learn my "new" name (which I've now had for nearly a third of my life) properly. that name, incidentally, is gender-neutral in Sanskrit (well, technically you just pronounce the last vowel differently depending on gender) so I'm keeping it ;D.

My maternal (and very Jewish) grandparents were known to me as Saba and Safta - which it turns out is Aramaic for "old man, old woman" :). I think I was in my early teens before I realised either of them had a, you know, actual name...
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on October 29, 2011, 06:53:34 am
I enquired with a scholarly acquaintance about the they/their "correctness" issue, and he pointed me to this article of his (http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/genpr.htm), and said in his email:

"There is still much dispute about the use of singular "their", but the consensus has definitely moved a long way towards acceptance. It is now rejected only in very formal prose."
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Lyric on October 29, 2011, 10:07:44 am
The "Grammer Girl" podcast recently tackled the use of "they" as a genderless alternative and her conclusion was that it was about the best of the bad choices. The thing about language is that it has never successfully been designed, but rather tends to be a hodgepodge of terms thrown together by people in different regions and walks of life. The only deliberate modification of the English language in reference to gender that I recall succeeding was "ms." and I think that was just because it was the name of a magazine. This is a noble effort, but I doubt that you'll see "per" and "mir" being taught widely in schools anytime soon.

I've long practiced genderless speech myself, as much as possible. I have no problem avoiding any need for terms like "mr." or "sir". I think those terms are used by and large by people in service occupations to create a degree of verbal distancing in formal business situations. I think most people would rather have someone simply say "here is your receipt" than "here is your receipt, sir", anyway. I think such terms are basically superfluous, really. If you don't know someone's name, just ask and use that.

Lyric
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on October 29, 2011, 11:50:06 am
It's the logistics of doing this that makes it difficult. starting with small chunks that are halfway there already may be the way to go about this.

Is it possible for someone to put those logistics into a usable form? I'm not good at that, although I can and do conceptualize in an orderly manner, analytically speaking I guess I'd say. That hardly makes sense to me after reading it.

I think if the words come from some sort of centralized area in language, it would be more acceptable.

Nothing is going to happen overnite, especially when it comes to language, but the internet has certainly proven that things can change 'overnite'.
Should we wait another year, until more Androgyn's show up? Should we make Androgyne acceptable first?
Waiting for anything is such wasted time, language today makes a lot of things more acceptable. "Has a word for it, it must be true!".

What are some 3rd gender names from language? What are some 3rd gender nouns? We keep hearing about them, where are they?
I'm the first to admit I have difficulty with even english, but I love how some words can just roll out there without question, whether they are just obscure, or just made up. Like catch phrases (words). If any of them get used in spoken or written news, great.

Right now there isn't any frame of reference. That's what we need to do. Use words that are in the framework of Androgyn. We just need more.
That framework should be looked at in places we haven't tried and see if any of the failed words would work, now.

We just went through the defining proccess of Androgyn to androgynous. I think we can keep this rolling.

(the still being watched one),
Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on October 29, 2011, 08:14:19 pm
Just ran across this. It gets more interesting at the bottom and once you get past the Geico ads...
http://ask.metafilter.com/93364/Gender-Neutral-Term-for-AuntUncle (http://ask.metafilter.com/93364/Gender-Neutral-Term-for-AuntUncle)

Ativan(somebody is reading this right now to make sure I don't say anything bad, well at least 16% of the words anyway)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 29, 2011, 08:24:10 pm
I can't say this enough...I'm NOT trying to change the world! NOT. I am not aiming for complete world wide use of these words!! I'm not. I don't expect that. That's not my goal. I don't need these words in the dictionary, I don't need these words taught in school...I simply want them for *me* and perhaps for you...if you want them..and if you don't, then please. Just leave them. And don't use them. That's fine!

It is so frustrating to me that people say (and trust me...I've heard this ALOT hence this little ranty rant..) that I shouldn't even try since ya know..it's not going to be picked up and used right away by all people all over.

I am only coming here to the group at large to access the larger creative brain power. I have ran out of ideas myself so I've come here for help. Really...honestly...I'm looking for words that I can offer up to my friends and circle of peers so they can use them because they've requested words. They've requested ways to speak about me because more than one person has found it untrue to refer to me with female pronouns. They've found that uncomfortable and then come to me and asked for different words. At which...I'm lacking.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on October 29, 2011, 08:34:30 pm
Well...OK, you get to use the words first  ;D

Would a one week preusage be OK? I think we should just let you try any we may find, and report back on how you think they are doing. ;)
You brought to the front of the Androgyn line, a topic the rest of us can only be concerned to a degree. But I think its a high degree.
You're like that person that says, "You know...,it would be nice if blah blah...". I don't think its a giving or taking from you.
It's just a really good idea. You're really good at good ideas, face it. We do. "well Sevan said it was a good idea"

With a love of the respect due you,
Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 29, 2011, 08:55:59 pm
*sigh* I wasn't so much directing that at you @tivan. You're being quite helpful...or at least it seems that way to me. ;)

I was more annoyed and ranting in response to all the people in that thread that was in the link you shared; all those people who tried to discourage the OP from finding the word they were seeking. I'm annoyed at all the people who are trying to discourage me from finding words simply because the world at large isn't going to use them....how do we know that they won't use them? Perhaps they will!! I can't know. Though I don't care. That's the thing. I'm looking to help my peer group. Not the world. Though if the world is helped....awesome!! Fantastic! That'd be great. I just don't see why I should stop looking for words to help my peer group and family.

As for the foreign languages that already have 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc genders...well I believe them to be mostly tribal and thus...not connected to the internet. I'd hoped that at least someone had encountered them and posted their findings to the internet but I've had no luck as of yet. Maybe these tribes don't actually exist and it's some sort of internet meme to say that they do. It's all a farse. Damn it. I knew it.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 29, 2011, 09:09:03 pm
Thanks to my darling wife for this link: http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/ (http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/) So that gives us a bit more information. :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on October 29, 2011, 09:17:51 pm
In what I was seeing, from googling, was that the movement for gender-neutral titles is being taken on by the feminest movement (was that just not gender neutral?).
Anyways, there are some comparable reasons. Somewhere else to look. The 3rd gender thing, now that I think about it, was always some ancient long dead society that we really only think they lived on that rock over there. but it seems that India or nearby cultures may be of some help.

Time to go watch a movie or two
Ativan 16% watched
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Shana A on October 29, 2011, 10:19:08 pm
Shortly after I came up with my name, Zythyra, some close friends started calling me Z for short, and I liked that for me. I also found Z convenient as a personal pronoun. A few years later I started seeing ze or zie as a gender free pronoun. I've never gotten used to hir, finding the pronunciation confusing. My partner likes using singular they/their, and I've gotten to like that, but people who aren't us often wonder what groups of people we're talking about when we use it.

Z
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 29, 2011, 11:17:05 pm
I was looking at the list of desired words again and  I keep looking at Mr./Mrs. and I keep thinking Mz. would be most appropriate but it seems a bit close to the female "Ms." though this is normally a written thing rather than a spoken thing so perhaps it'd work anyway?

I also remembered something Cyndi's brother came up with early on in her transition. He was struggling with the change of his "brother" turning into his "sister" and so started calling Cyndi his "broster" as he wrapped his head around the whole transition consept. I like that alot personally.

So that could potentially check off two from our list...if anyone else likes these...that is.

@tivan: I like the idea of giving it a week  :laugh: We've been trying out "per/pers" today because it's new to us and we do like new words (Cyndi and I being that "us") I am not used to it yet but I gotta say it rolls off the tongue significantly easier than "hir" that's for sure! We often make up silly words that may or may not actually have meaning....I'm convinced Cyndi has a form of tourettes with all the strange and random words that spring forth from her mouth...often when upset, frustrated or anxious. Though it often serves as a form of humor around here.

Our house is a unique place due to the constant stream of random and "new" words. So we (relatively) easily assimilate new words into our lexicon. :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on October 29, 2011, 11:50:56 pm
I'd like to see words that make explaining Androgyn or 3rd Gender easier. That's asking a lot, i know. But I'm also in the crowd that sees these conflicts with genders everywhere a reason to push the definition out there ahead of the word. I have two girls and I'll be damned if some gender bullshit interferes with their lives. I don't know if that makes sense, it does to me. I'll be the one who tells how it needs to be done and then tell you the name of it. :D ;D. Its kind of like animal rescue. First you take the animal, then tell them why. Usually you have a deputy sheriff near by. ;)

So anyways, I'm always plotting to take over the world HAHA-HA!

Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: foosnark on October 31, 2011, 08:54:31 am
I'm trying to figure out why it is neutral pronouns bug me.  I din't mind if other people use them and will respect their wishes, but... I don't know.  Personal issues I guess.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on October 31, 2011, 11:10:53 pm
Grrrr!!! I can not come up with a word that fills in "boy/girl" grrrr!!! :( This is annoying me very very much.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Metroland on November 01, 2011, 03:22:38 am
I was looking at the list of desired words again and  I keep looking at Mr./Mrs. and I keep thinking Mz.

I am not sure if you have seen this before, but the UK government is planning on adding Mx as a gender option on their passport. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/27/gender_database_debate/. (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/27/gender_database_debate/.)  It is spelled as Mix.

I don't like the idea so much because it reminds me of variable x in algebra, as if the gender is indeterminate.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on November 01, 2011, 09:59:23 pm
I just have my own little campaign of scratching out what I don't like and right yes if they ask for gender. Ethnically I am always other, if they need more I write terran. I went around and around with doctors and others about the question of gender and race. I will never stop arguing about it.

Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on November 01, 2011, 10:02:24 pm
Grrrr!!! I can not come up with a word that fills in "boy/girl" grrrr!!! :( This is annoying me very very much.
I thought that 'kid' covered that.
Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Julian on November 01, 2011, 10:04:07 pm
I just have my own little campaign of scratching out what I don't like and right yes if they ask for gender. Ethnically I am always other, if they need more I write terran. I went around and around with doctors and others about the question of gender and race. I will never stop arguing about it.

Ativan

Heh, I kinda do that. Except my preferred answer for gender is 'nope'.

My partner came up with the term 'ladydudefriend' to refer to me, though I can see how that one might not work for everyone. :P
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on November 01, 2011, 10:07:24 pm
"LDF"? well Fu*k'm.

Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on November 01, 2011, 10:53:32 pm
kid/child/young'in works by it'self but it doesn't really work in front of "friend" in the boy/girl friend situation...though generally I've never used that term. I don't like it. That's just me...or maybe it's not! lol. I like spouse/lover/mate. Mate is my favorite of those. I've never much cared for "partner" because it's like...partner of what. Crime? Business? I just don't like it. No real reason why..just don't. Mate is my favorite but again can't really say why. lol! Just...my favorite.

My ex wife kinda ruined the word "wife" for me. She always called me her wife with such a feeling of...ownership and toward the end of our relationship she almost...spat it at me.

When I got with Cyndi (pre-transition) I called her my mate. When we got married I liked the term husband. (directed at her...cuz again, was pre-transition..) and she never called me wife much. I mean I was her wife...but she just preferred honey, mate, sweetie and such. Perpahs because I'd shudder some at being called wife...cringe....yea.

Once she transitioned it took me a while to start calling her my wife. I still don't call her that much...sadly. I generally call her my spouse. In part because we live in a rural area that's not exactly queer friendly...but mostly because the word wife has just really been ruined. I want to reclaim it and like it again because Cyndi's come so far to have that word. She is my wife but I Just...*sigh*

That's all kinds of off topic...sort of...but whatever.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: cynthialee on November 01, 2011, 10:59:26 pm
Boy
Girl
Nute (pronounced newt)

Nute short for nutral, as an androgyn/nuetrois child is (perhaps) in a state of gender nuetrality.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: caseyy on November 02, 2011, 04:43:37 am
I can see why wife is difficult...is does have a lot of connotations sometimes, and I've heard a lot of men (just in particular) use it in a possessive/condescending way.

'Mate' is really quite lovely. :) I always used partner, because to me, it was really significant - I'm not very social and don't collaborate with people much, so for me to say I have a partner in my life really meant a lot.

Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: the_physicist on November 02, 2011, 01:48:57 pm
The "Grammer Girl" podcast recently tackled the use of "they" as a genderless alternative and her conclusion was that it was about the best of the bad choices. The thing about language is that it has never successfully been designed, but rather tends to be a hodgepodge of terms thrown together by people in different regions and walks of life. The only deliberate modification of the English language in reference to gender that I recall succeeding was "ms." and I think that was just because it was the name of a magazine. This is a noble effort, but I doubt that you'll see "per" and "mir" being taught widely in schools anytime soon.

well, i really hope they isn't a problem for grammar sensitive people as i use it all the time to refer to posters on the internet if i don't know their gender ;). i also think it's good for androgynes. i like it anyway. although i guess as long as no one uses 'it', it's all good in my books XD.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on November 02, 2011, 07:43:32 pm
The term preceded the magazine. It's from the 60's, maybe early 70's.

ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on November 02, 2011, 07:46:14 pm
Boy
Girl
Nute (pronounced newt)

Nute short for nutral, as an androgyn/nuetrois child is (perhaps) in a state of gender nuetrality.
Newt Gingrich, the cute kid on 'Aliens', salamanders, neutrinos. All I got.

Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: MetaFic on November 02, 2011, 10:41:07 pm
Oh, I love this – or at least love giving it some thought.

Zi(e) and hir make me wince every time I read them, just for the fact that they do remind me too much of the German connotations. For myself, I like using per or they; it seems easier for those who are just beginning to understand who I am/how I feel to transfer from gender to gender neutral pronouns.

For boy/girl – the first thing that came to mind was nen, which is a Catalan term I read in one book or another. It means child, but nute does have a certain ring to it, even if half of my mind is on a cute lizard.

I love the term mada too. When I decide to have children, I think it would an easy term to adapt into any household.  I feel the same way about broster.

Mir and Mz. are probably not my favorite, but I have nothing to substitute it, therefore will leave it as is for now.

Aunt /uncle was a hard one. I borrowed from the French, Spanish, and Latin communities. It may not be anything great but maybe it’ll spark a genius thought for something more fitting: tota (which was a combination of Tio and Tia, Spanish for uncle/aunt but, befitting , it means all in Catalan), tao (to closely strung with the house of thought), onte/unte (which happens to be my personal favorite despite its other meanings… be careful – after further research, onte means yesterday in Gaelic, and unte means lower in German), mapatra (sound like ma petite but roots are Latin based, not French).

Father/Mother, mm, I’ll look more into it. Along with niece/nephew and grandpa/grandma.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on November 04, 2011, 01:03:29 pm
Hmmm thanks for your input! I like some of those aunt/uncle choice! I'm going to have to try some of those out. :)
Has anyone seen this site: http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/ (http://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/) I hadn't heard of the NE set. With considering based on the sites findings. However it still doesn't address what we're trying to address here. I wanted to bring it to notice though as the way the author discusses each set is quite interesting.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Taka on November 19, 2011, 04:04:27 pm
in the sami language that i speak, we got 4 different words for aunt and 4 + 1(derived) words for uncle. all of which tell exactly what relation you have to the kid, the father's sister, mother's older or younger sister, married to the uncle etc... so i'm already three different kinds of aunt.
quite difficult in a way, but one good thing about it is that there is no one word for "niece" nor for "nephew". the kid is called by the word for aunt or uncle + a suffix. or to make a simpler example, i've two brothers, and i'm "siessá" to their kids. any of the kids, boy or girl, is "siessal" to me

thinking like that, if one decides to call a parent's sibling "auncle", the child one is auncle to could be called "auncling". just a suggestion of course
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: caseyy on November 19, 2011, 06:16:53 pm
That's pretty cool actually. :D Auncle.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Kristyn74 on November 19, 2011, 09:31:19 pm



How bout asking them to call you SEV-AUNT?  ;D


Kristyn
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on November 19, 2011, 10:50:02 pm


How bout asking them to call you SEV-AUNT?  ;D


Kristyn

Nice. Very nice! :D hehehehe
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Julian on November 20, 2011, 11:14:30 am
For boy/girl – the first thing that came to mind was nen, which is a Catalan term I read in one book or another. It means child, but nute does have a certain ring to it, even if half of my mind is on a cute lizard.

I really like nen. It's cute to me without the lizard connotation.  ::) And I like the idea of looking to other languages for inspiration. That's, like, at least half of what English is already.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Shana A on November 20, 2011, 11:31:22 am
A few years ago my partner came up with Unt or Aunkle   :D

Z
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on November 20, 2011, 01:47:52 pm
Newt was the character the little girl played in 'Aliens'. Soft spot right there.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Kinkly on November 21, 2011, 05:42:16 pm
on the whole boy/girl bit I like Birl.  A little while ago I was involved in a little event that was called "Queer's got Talent"  (Just in a friends back yard)  My Performance included a rewording of Madonna's "Material Girl" to "We are living in a Binary World but I am a Hexadecimal Birl."  with a couple of verses making it clear I was singing about gender.

Male  Female  Netural  Other Gender
Boy     Girl       Child        Birl
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on November 21, 2011, 05:48:09 pm
Hexadecimal Birl - nice :) - this one goes to B ;D.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 23, 2011, 02:53:05 pm
How do I pronounce "hir" without making it sound like "her"?
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: pixiegirl on November 24, 2011, 03:53:17 am
Say the "hi" like you would saying "him", then add an r  :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on November 24, 2011, 04:02:26 am
So it sounds more like "here"?
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on November 28, 2011, 10:08:01 pm
Yep!
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Mx.Fox on December 04, 2011, 10:53:47 am
Ive heard bothfriend before and kinda like it.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Sevan on December 05, 2011, 08:37:29 pm
bothfriend is kinda cool! I also like Mx. That works better than Mz which just seems so much like Ms.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: AdamMLP on December 06, 2011, 04:00:43 pm
If I can put my two cents in on the 'ze' pronoun... every time I see it in a sentence I automatically read it in a stereotypical French accent without meaning to  :P  Personally I'd use 'per' if I was andro myself, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: espo on December 10, 2011, 12:29:18 pm
I think we should go back to the thee and thou days, like instead of says she or he, why not just use thou for both genders.
Like this...."  I phone Sevan and thee was busy so thou partner picked up instead. "

I did that at work a few times and holy crap the blank looks you get back are hilarious. 
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: cynthialee on December 10, 2011, 04:25:27 pm
thee, thou and don't forget thine
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: runalan on January 25, 2012, 05:33:12 am
I suppose everyone is a bit mixed-up, but androgynes like us cant help being a bit more mixed up than others. Especially for me working in a pub, because when I'm behind the bar I'm a barmaid, but when I go down to the cellar to change barrels, I'm a cellarman.  I suppose I could also be a barman - the word is in use, but who has ever heard of a cellargirl?
Gender neutral terms? I cant think of any, Barperson or cellarperson are both absurd. Let's just leave it as it is. Anyway, I'm mainly a barmaid, and as so many other have reported here, I can sometimes see people having doubts about the matter, but it doesnt worry me.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on January 25, 2012, 05:36:51 am
It makes me giggle that in line with PC-ness, my friends who take turns being chairmen and chairwomen of charities are now known simply as The Chair :). Given the tempers on one or two of them, I'm inclined to think of then as The Siege Perilous...
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: grrl1nside on January 25, 2012, 06:43:05 am
This is a really great topic. I'm mtf and the issue here has been a daunting one for me as well. I'm married with 2 children and being called "dad" makes my skin crawl. On the other hand, mum/mom has already been well claimed and I'm really trying hard to find a word that doesn't challenge my wife's role and attachment to being mom. She had the title first and I value you her ability to feel comfortable. We are working through it but I've been trying to find ways around the mom/dad title mess. Part of the problem is that what sounds good now, will sound too much like father or mother when I become a grand- something down the road. Some of the words, I've pondered. Not sure if any of them are helpful. I'm curious if any of them would work for all or if anyone prefers something better than others. Thankfully, one child is 4 the other is a newborn so there is hope on getting the title change to work!

For the longest time, I tried Popsicle. Two legs and something sweet but then grandpa came over and became papa which became a nightmare.

Not all of these are truly gender neutral, but you`ll see the mental hoolihoops I`ve been doing... I have a much longer list than below believe it or not!

Par - (add the grand in front... And sounds like Pa with a speech impediment) Parent (maybe could go with Pare sort of sounds like the fruit pear)
Feda- (sounds like a cheese and add grand in front)... Female Dad
Mops- Mom plus Pops
Poms- Pops plus Mom
Dammy- Daddy plus Mommy. Ummm... No... Just No...
Maddy- Mommy plus Daddy becomes a first name
DaF- Dad plus Female. Solves the grand- problem but will it generate a whole bunch of other issues while I transition in a small town. Hmmm... Might raise lots of attention early and then none later... Would also work as Daffy for me, I suppose...
Malom- Male mom (I think Feda works better than this one)
Mad- Mom and dad (probably where I'll end up by the end of this message)
Demme or Dem- Dad plus Femme (seems to work with the grand problem)
Dommy- Yes, daddy plus Mommy mixed with whips and a few other assorted accoutrements.

At this rate, I might try to convince my child to go with Scooby as in Doo...
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on January 25, 2012, 06:53:49 am
Have you asked your kids what they'd like to call you, if it's not dad? You'll be fighting a losing battle if it's not something they like themselves :).
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: grrl1nside on January 25, 2012, 07:01:13 am
Absolutely. This is a family conversation in the works and the kids are the deciders and co-creators.  I still think it would be nice to have a few other options available for them rather than just Dad as examples to help them... We are very happy for them to be creative too and come up with something wonderful...
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Shantel on January 25, 2012, 02:53:13 pm
This is a really great topic. I'm mtf and the issue here has been a daunting one for me as well. I'm married with 2 children and being called "dad" makes my skin crawl.

I know a great looking, very sweet m2f surgeon who is well known and specializes in SRS. I won't use her name here out of decency and common sense. Although she is divorced, she does come into town for the holidays and visit the former spouse and kids. Those kids call her "dad" although in the wildest stretch of my imagination the handle doesn't fit. She isn't phased by it in any way because to those kids she is and always will be "dad" and she loves them dearly and won't let her stuff take that away from them. As for me, my granddaughter is going through puberty and has stayed overnight with us on many occasions. She has sat at the breakfast table with me in my PJ bottoms and tank top and boobs poking out all quivery and nipples showing and it doesn't phase her in the least as I am and always will be her beloved grandpa in spite of myself.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Kinkly on January 29, 2012, 06:02:33 am
I've heard of somebody (a M2F) being called Maddy by their young children ( the kids then had a Mummy & a Maddy)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: ativan on February 21, 2012, 04:47:41 pm
I just responded to a topic that Apollo brought up.
Apollo wrote of a friend who uses a nice term, I think.

Genderfriend.

I like that a lot.

Ativan
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Kitpup on February 26, 2012, 08:24:02 pm
When I was in my junior year of high school I did a paper on gender in the english language (because I love language) and found faint traces of a word that, apparently, has its origins in middle english and simply means 'person': ou
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Stealthy on March 23, 2012, 10:44:37 pm
When it comes to pronouns, I personally use shi/hir to refer to myself and to other people I don't know the gender or preferred pronouns of. With other non-binary trans people, I use their preferred pronouns.

When there's already a gender-neutral term (like 'sibling' in place of brother or sister), I use that. It can make stuff sound awkward or overly formal, though.

I found the term 'birl' used somewhere (as an alternative to 'boy' and 'girl'), and since then, I've been using it like crazy.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: BlueSloth on March 30, 2012, 06:39:08 pm
I just responded to a topic that Apollo brought up.
Apollo wrote of a friend who uses a nice term, I think.

Genderfriend.

I like that a lot.

Ativan
I still can't figure that one out.  I saw Apollo's post and know it's supposed to be a neutral form of "boyfriend" or "girlfriend", but.... why "gender"?  Isn't that sequence of letters already taken?  It's confusing to suddenly add a new meaning to it like that.

I'd rather be a birlfriend than a genderfriend. :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Pica Pica on April 07, 2012, 07:06:38 pm
I'd settle for Lover.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Edge on April 23, 2012, 07:36:51 pm
Personally, I don't like any of the ones I've heard. (Granted, I haven't gone through this thread yet.) Ones like "ze" or "xe" or stuff like that sound and look awkward. "They" always feels plural to me (although I know that's not the case, that's how it feels to me). "Hir" sounds too much like "her."
Honestly, I'd really like it if people used "he" and "she" and just switched them up. For example, "His name is Edge and she likes brains." Or, if that's too confusing, I honestly don't mind "it" as long as the person saying it makes it clear that I am a person and is respectful.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Cade on April 24, 2012, 02:41:00 pm
My nephews were trained to use titles, and I was their Aunt so my wife started calling herself Uncle. They never adopted it....

When I took Russian, we called each other tovarisch-- comrade. I've always liked that.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: suzifrommd on April 24, 2012, 06:37:49 pm
I understand the desire to change the language. Non-binary pronouns would make life a lot easier.

But what I'd really like is to change people's expectations of the pronouns we already have. Have "he" be allowed to mean some of the things that "she" now means, and vice-versa. Why can't I be a "he" with large expanses of female real estate in my soul, without having to invent a new pronoun to refer to me?
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: BlueSloth on April 25, 2012, 02:00:42 am
But what I'd really like is to change people's expectations of the pronouns we already have. Have "he" be allowed to mean some of the things that "she" now means, and vice-versa. Why can't I be a "he" with large expanses of female real estate in my soul, without having to invent a new pronoun to refer to me?
Hmm... very intriguing idea.  But something in me balks at words like "he" being used on me, and I don't know if I can change that.  Especially since I know the definition won't have changed in other people's minds.

I am going to continue to be called "he" by most people for now though, since I don't feel up to trying to get everybody to use some weird pronouns they've never heard of.  It's an uphill battle that will probably get me labeled as weird and annoying, and I don't think my meek little self can manage it. :(
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Pica Pica on April 25, 2012, 02:15:01 pm
Nor will it mean 'person of third/another gender' in their minds, extra pronouns only mean 'awkward person who thinks the existing ones aren't good enough for them', even to me - and I'm a person of another gender.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Glubert on September 07, 2012, 06:38:45 am
Person/People

 :angel:
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Taka on September 28, 2012, 02:58:36 pm
some times i'm really glad i speak a language that doesn't have gender specific pronouns. i once experienced hearing a guy speaking of some person he'd met, with an interpreter translating to norwegian. and since the default pronoun still seems to be the equivalent of "he" in norwegian, after a few sentences the guy who told the story just had to point out that this person was a woman. just to make the translation right. if it wasn't being translated he'd never have felt any need to specify the gender, since it was irrelevant to the story
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Mayonnaise on April 15, 2013, 09:13:26 am
Another Androgyne I know, actually the only other Androgyne I know, IRL, recently invented the word "Androgynads" to refer to xir... crotch bits during a tabletop session.
We laughed for about 20 minutes straight about it, but in the end decided we're going to keep it.

8^P
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on April 15, 2013, 10:43:13 am
That's a bit splendid :D.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Lyric on April 24, 2013, 10:13:34 am
As a long time sci-fi fan, I'm often guilty of using the term "android". I dunno. It's kind of funny and works for me. I suppose in writing and talking, too, for that matter, I enjoy creating ways to circumvent titles or gender at all. It's pretty easy, really. Instead of "excuse me ma'am" say "excuse me". Instead of "who is shoe?" ask "who is that?" I think it's possible to modify your thinking in such a way as to pretty much eliminate gender pronouns, but it does take some thought.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on April 24, 2013, 04:41:27 pm
I came across a webcomic that used the term gynoid for an android who'd chosen to transition from male to female body form. I liked this a lot, it being a fairly obvious point that android means man-like.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Adreni on June 26, 2013, 01:47:05 pm
Hmm... very intriguing idea.  But something in me balks at words like "he" being used on me, and I don't know if I can change that.  Especially since I know the definition won't have changed in other people's minds.

I am going to continue to be called "he" by most people for now though, since I don't feel up to trying to get everybody to use some weird pronouns they've never heard of.  It's an uphill battle that will probably get me labeled as weird and annoying, and I don't think my meek little self can manage it. :(

I agree. Being referred to as male feels awkward and maybe even a bit demeaning for me, and I don't feel anymore comfortable with being called female than that.
I used to try to get people to call me an "it," but back then I was in the middle of what was, in my case, a sort of "I hate gender" tantrum. Nowadays there are no English-language pronouns that fit me... he, she, it or they... they all sound broken or impersonal and empty.

Online I refer to myself as hir/shi.

Perhaps the Spivak pronouns.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Pickles on October 18, 2013, 03:34:07 pm
For the record, I hate Hir and most ad hoc gender neutral terms I've heard. They/them works just fine imo.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on October 21, 2013, 12:45:58 pm
In non-binary company, I tend to use xe/xyr (though in my head, I pronounce the x like the j in the French Jacques, whereas most people pronounce it as a z). Otherwise I use she/her because they're the pronouns least likely to get me misgendered, even though woman is only part of my gender archipelago. A year ago, I found they really hard to use in the singular, and now it's second nature when talking about non-binary friends.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Alexthecat on October 26, 2013, 09:56:33 am
So Ze is pronounced "Z"?
Title: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on October 28, 2013, 01:52:50 pm
Not if you're English :D. But yes, Ze is pronounced "zee", to rhyme with she and he.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Red Leicester on November 02, 2013, 02:55:38 pm
"Zed" would be a good name.
Title: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on November 02, 2013, 05:08:24 pm
I've recently been introduced to Ne as a neutral pronoun, and I'm warming to it.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Pica Pica on November 02, 2013, 05:52:21 pm
Ne?

I just think...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Knightni.jpg/400px-Knightni.jpg)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: LordKAT on November 02, 2013, 05:55:31 pm
Very strange (k)nights indeed.
Title: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on November 13, 2013, 06:33:49 am
In white satin.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Kaelin on November 14, 2013, 07:11:14 am
The first time I heard the title, I thought it was Knights in White Satin, and I was a little disappointed when I discovered otherwise.  Not that the true title is bad either, but...
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: UnlockingJack on February 13, 2014, 10:42:15 am
I read a really wonderful story the other day with a genderqueer character. That character's boyfriend's father referred to them as "my son's person", not in an ownership kind of sense, but instead of "boyfriend" or "girlfriend". I kind of like that. I can see where it might have ownership undertones, but I don't really see it that way, and I like the idea of my partner referring to me as "his person". It's cute. :) (as it is, since we're married, I'm trying to get him used to calling me his partner rather than his wife. I hate the connotations of "wife" anyway.)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Shantel on February 13, 2014, 02:26:41 pm
I read a really wonderful story the other day with a genderqueer character. That character's boyfriend's father referred to them as "my son's person", not in an ownership kind of sense, but instead of "boyfriend" or "girlfriend". I kind of like that. I can see where it might have ownership undertones, but I don't really see it that way, and I like the idea of my partner referring to me as "his person". It's cute. :) (as it is, since we're married, I'm trying to get him used to calling me his partner rather than his wife. I hate the connotations of "wife" anyway.)

I get that and usually refer to my S.O. as my spouse. There's something about the word wife that is synonymous with someone regarded as lesser which is the case in some cultures. Partners puts us on an equal footing and makes more sense to me.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: RainbowGuacamole on February 18, 2014, 11:51:40 am
I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not (forgive me if it was), but "nibling" is the gender neutral way to refer to a nephew/niece. I think this may be the cutest word ever!
Title: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Padma on February 19, 2014, 10:17:24 pm
Also not sure if this has come up before, but I know an ungendered couple who refer to each other as their "enfriend". As in N for neutral.
Title: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: MacG on February 19, 2014, 11:14:18 pm
"Nibling" is the best thing ever!
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Natkat on May 18, 2014, 01:33:33 pm
In my languarge we don't use "boyfriend or girlfriend" as speaking of someone we are together with,
we say "kæreste" which dirrectly means, the thing/person I love the most/the thing/person I hold most dead"

while writting english I still like to keep the word gender neutral, so I usunally exchange the word with "my dear" "my lover" "his beloved" "his partner" and such words. we also have a word which is called "sammenboer" meaning "person who live together/ the person I live with"
it is not nessesarry someone they are married or in a relationship with it can also be friends or people you share the house with "sammenlever" is pretty
much the same word but it refern more to someone you are in relation ship.
I think in short the words could be translated as a mix of house partner or companions.

 



 
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Kendall on May 18, 2014, 03:23:31 pm
I don't know Latin however I was noticing these pronouns. Might be useful for something.


(which to use depends on nominative (subject of verb), accusative (direct object of transitive verb)(something being done to it), genitive (possessive or composition) (modifying a noun)(english indicate by "'s" or "of"), dative (indirect object) (something being given to)(english indicate by "to", but not movement), ablative (indicating motion away from something, preposition)(english indicate by "from")

to go with the personal pronouns of
ego - I - singular 1st person subject
me - me - singualr 1st person direct object
mihi - to me - singular 1st person indirect object
mei - of me - singular 1st person possessive
me - from me - singular 1st person preposition phrase

id - it (this neuter thing; used in a demonstrative sense)

I used on the first word which is the nominative or subject form, which most of the time is unique to the neutral gender. The second is most of the time unique to the neutral gender, the direct object form
Latin          -           English
meusum  - my - singular neuter - possessive 1st person (ownership)
tuusum - your - singualr neuter - possessive 2nd person (ownership)
suus, sua, sum - [his/hers, its, their] - 3rd person pronouns
se, sui, sibi - [himself, herself, itself] - reflexive pronouns (a pronoun that is preceded by the noun, adjective, adverb or pronoun to which it refers (its antecedent) within the same clause.)
hoc, huius, huic, hec, horum - neuter: this - demonstrative (represents noun)
illud, illius, illi, illo, illa - neuter: that -demonstrative (represents noun)
id, eius, ei, eo -   neuter: that - demonstrative (represents noun)
quod, quius, que, quorum, quibus - neuter: who, which, that - Relative pronoun (modifies word, clause, or idea)
quid                - neuter: who? what?    - Interrogative pronoun (ask questions)
ipsum     -    neuter: itself  -  intensive (adding emphasis)

I like "id" instead of it. Ever since Freud used for the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth

found this here http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Latin/Lesson_6-Pronouns
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: aggressivelyconfused on May 28, 2014, 09:24:33 pm
Love this thread, there's so many good words here. ;D

I've come across "pibling" for aunt/uncle because one would be a child's parent's sibling, which is just as adorable as nibling I think!
And datemate or sweetie for boyfriend/girlfriend.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Charr Lee on June 25, 2014, 04:46:41 pm
The non-binary version of aunt and uncle is auncle and for grandpa and grandma, grandwa.
for relationships there are: bothfriend, enbyfriend, boifriend, grrlfriend, feyfriend, perfriend, and others.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: cal on August 04, 2014, 09:53:20 pm
another one for boyfriend/girlfriend is datefriend or enbyfriend
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Willowicious on June 18, 2015, 04:28:09 am
I just call everybody xerm, regardless of identity ^_^
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Swayallday on June 18, 2015, 05:21:05 am
U in Dutch is a polite form to adress anyone
Vous in French has the same connotation.

Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Allison Wunderland on July 08, 2015, 11:53:17 am
Yeah, as a matter of fact, this IS my field, "linguistics."

Pronouns are part of a language "fixed" vocabulary. These are references that are not very subject to change: I, you, he, she, it.

In English, we dropped the informal, singular "thou" and replaced it with "you."

Similarly, we often use "we" in an editorial sense, instead of the singular "I" . . . We just demonstrated this usage here.

And so, what do we do when we need to designate third person, non gender specific? Current usage in Modern English, being accepted in formal publication is "they" and "one" -- they're, one's . . .

Such usage is unaffected, doesn't need to be "invented" or otherwise introduced.

Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: superlockedwhovian on August 09, 2015, 06:44:12 pm
and then there's always "bruh" or "bro" for brother/sister
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Allison Wunderland on August 25, 2015, 03:18:13 pm
Every day . . .

Currently in the court room, formal address by counsel -- "Mr." . . . and day to day in businesses, "Sir" . . .

"Dr." and "Professor" are both neutral, and accurate, but they seem unnecessarily formal and pretentious. Court will not address me by my first name, regardless.  And yes, as a matter of fact I am wearing a tie and a jacket.

Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Koda9 on February 13, 2016, 02:08:28 pm
another one for boyfriend/girlfriend is datefriend or enbyfriend

I've heard of datemate.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Koda9 on February 13, 2016, 02:13:59 pm
U in Dutch is a polite form to adress anyone
Vous in French has the same connotation.

I take french! :)

'Vous' is plural you, and both 'tu' (singular, pronounced two/to/too) and 'vous' (plural, pronounced voo, rhymes with zoo, too) are gender-neutral.

I personally use the pronouns zhe-zheir-zhem (zee-zheir[rhymes with their]-zhem[rhymes with them and gem])to refer to myself, mostly because websters uses 'zh' for the french 'j', so the first-person singular reminds me of je.

I might have to start using 'vous' as my title.

"Here is your change, Vu." Vu.Koda- I like it. :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Hunchdebunch on February 26, 2016, 11:39:17 am
I've had this kind of discussion with my friends, and have mentioned words like 'datemate' or 'enbyfriend' for boyfriend/girlfriend, and we also discussed aunt/uncle, which we found a difficult one. We came up with 'Auntle' which I think sounds alright, but I'm not sure whether I'd use it or not. I discussed using 'sibling' with my sister, and 'child' with my parents (although, being an adult myself, being called their child seems a bit odd). There's also the matter of bride/groom. I came up with 'Broom' as a joke, but will probably genuinely refer to myself as that if ever get married. I was considering an alternative to sir/ma'am recently too, and came up with 'sir'am' which I quite like. Gendered language is a pain haha
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Nacht on March 21, 2016, 01:46:20 am
I think about this a lot. The pronouns I go by that feel right are 'they/them/their'. I've met with resistance to this because many people don't see it as grammatically correct (even though it is and we often use singular they without even realizing it).

I prefer for my boyfriend to refer to me as his partner after I heard him refer to me as his girlfriend to someone. I like the prefix of Mx., I hope that I will see it's use (or a different gender neutral prefix that isn't Dr.) in my lifetime.
I'm not really sure what I'll ask my parents to refer to me as when I eventually come out to them. Asking them to refer to me as their child feels weird because of my age. I suppose that I could just ask for them to refer to me by my name, but even then it feels weird.

Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Lizard on March 25, 2016, 08:54:23 pm
Yeah, as a matter of fact, this IS my field, "linguistics."

Pronouns are part of a language "fixed" vocabulary. These are references that are not very subject to change: I, you, he, she, it.

In English, we dropped the informal, singular "thou" and replaced it with "you."

Similarly, we often use "we" in an editorial sense, instead of the singular "I" . . . We just demonstrated this usage here.

And so, what do we do when we need to designate third person, non gender specific? Current usage in Modern English, being accepted in formal publication is "they" and "one" -- they're, one's . . .

Such usage is unaffected, doesn't need to be "invented" or otherwise introduced.

I admit to skimming this topic, I have limited time for 6 pages of posts, but I find it fascinating. I took some Linguistics back in the day, and there does have to be some structure and reasoning for anything new to "stick." However, we're also dealing with a changing social climate that's pushing these changes faster than what would be considered the normal evolution of language. This *can* make it harder for the average person to remember the new terms even in their best attempts to remember and show respect, and it makes it easier for people to dismiss if they are not concerned about showing respect.

If everyone agrees, and they can be taught and practiced, I think that makes for better chances of the new language to be used correctly. :)

And a funny brain-fart moment, when I tried to think of an Aunt/Uncle word, my brain spit out Ankle.  ::)   :D

L~
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: arice on March 25, 2016, 10:02:02 pm
My husband and I use partner to refer to me. He particularly enjoys saying it to people because my name, when spoken, is gender neutral (I love my mom) and so he likes to watch people try to guess... he has been doing it for the past decade and says it never gets old...
I gave a PhD so we avoid the Mr or Ms by designating me "Dr". I have to say that the lack or a gender neutral term here bothers me. Women fought hard to get a marital status neutral term and now the next step has to be gender neutral...
I am a mom and proud of that but I use "parent" as a gender neutral or biologically neutral term... I include the aunt who raised me under the "parent" umbrella all the time.
Sibling instead of brother/sister.
Uncle or aunt is hard and I don't have a good suggestion. I recommend a personalized term of endearment. If I ever have nieces or nephews, I think that is the route I'll take.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: arice on March 25, 2016, 10:03:03 pm
Language is constantly evolving and we can make it happen. :)

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Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: DogSpirit on March 26, 2016, 01:17:56 pm
Yes, we can make it happen. We just need to come up with some memes and get 'em to catch on.

I think it's kind of funny that I've embraced the word wife so readily. After decades of using the term partner, we finally have legalized gay marriage and I've been proudly saying wife. But that's more "Finally Get To!" than anything else...

On our marriage form, I was "Partner A"-- they made the forms properly gender neutral.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Raell on November 05, 2016, 10:11:20 am
I agree.
I am non-binary but willing to get by with female pronouns. Luckily, I've been living in Thailand since 2010, and they self-identify their preferred gender pronoun in each sentence.

But my ex-husband emailed me a few days ago and came out to me as non-binary female, so I'm having to deal with how to refer to him/her/zer/them.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Raell on November 08, 2016, 08:06:49 am
Padma,

First, your ungodly mother story is hilarious.

Second, I'm living in southern Thailand, and Thai seldom use pronouns at all. They refer to themselves and others with their nicknames, use age tags; elder (pee) or younger (nong), and children often refer to themselves as "noo" (mouse). Example: "Mouse drew this picture." Or "Elder didn't call me back."

People add a self-referencing gender tag to almost every sentence, to be polite.."cop" for men, and "kah" for females. People can change their tags at will during the day, as desired.
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Vethrvolnir on May 07, 2019, 01:58:54 am
 :D lady dude friend is great! My partner called  me " beautiful  woman errrrm beautiful....errm" this morning  ( grin ) i offered him to just say " thing" ( dinges) instead.  I'm fine with everything except " woman " or " lady " or "sir" or some such thing . Dinges  is ok. They i find strange when talking about myself. It has so much distance.
So for me - i/me , you , they - is fine. And when writing formal letters i use people's full name without indicators of gender.  Also it is possible to use L.S. ( lectori salutem - greetings to the reader)  perhaps in trade saying esteemed client sounds strange? :) it could be your new gimmick. They will never forget you. :)
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Alaskan Danielle on May 07, 2019, 11:59:19 am
:D lady dude friend is great! My partner called  me " beautiful  woman errrrm beautiful....errm" this morning  ( grin ) i offered him to just say " thing" ( dinges) instead.  I'm fine with everything except " woman " or " lady " or "sir" or some such thing . Dinges  is ok. They i find strange when talking about myself. It has so much distance.
So for me - i/me , you , they - is fine. And when writing formal letters i use people's full name without indicators of gender.  Also it is possible to use L.S. ( lectori salutem - greetings to the reader)  perhaps in trade saying esteemed client sounds strange? :) it could be your new gimmick. They will never forget you. :)


@Vethrvolnir
Dear Vethrvolnir:
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Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Alaskan Danielle on May 07, 2019, 11:59:34 am
@Vethrvolnir   
Oh, and another thing Vethrvolnir...
Please plan to write a post and tell us briefly tell us about yourself in the Introductions Forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) so that other members will be aware of your arrival... therefore you will be able to share your thoughts with more members here.
     
Thank you again for joining Susan's Place and being involved in the Forums here.
Best wishes to you,
Danielle

NOTE: Now after all of this Greeting Stuff I will let everyone have their thread back so that the conversation can continue.
Other members here will certainly be along to give you their comments and suggestions that you may be seeking
Title: Re: Let's come up with some gender neutral terms
Post by: Bea1968 on May 07, 2019, 02:02:32 pm
Wow so many terms, makes me feel like i am learning Spanish again.  I am comfortable with pretty much any term except "it".