Author Topic: reincarnation  (Read 9013 times)

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jamesBrine

reincarnation
« on: May 27, 2007, 12:57:14 am »
could someone please explain to me the idea of reincarnation and how it works?

  Thanks, James

Jeannette

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2007, 01:24:36 am »
We are all entitled to our opinion, which is called 'Free Will'.  Reincarnation is the opportunity given to the soul allowing it to live a series of lives. It permits the life experience to grow on other previous life-experiences. There is no death, there is a series of lifespans, changing one-by-one, until ultimately we find release from this cycle of rebirth.
For example, a murderer will not achieve nirvana without first of all discovering release from all the pain and distress s/he caused. For every good action you commit, you undo about ten negative or bad actions.

cindianna_jones

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2007, 01:59:10 am »
I think that in my next life, I'd like to be a planet. ;)  Does that work?

Cindi

katia

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2007, 07:56:57 am »
carl sagan, a brilliant scientist who was an atheist, did not "believe" in reincarnation but left his mind open to the possibility that reincarnation might be true. quoted from one of his books ("demon haunted world"):

Quote
At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any way other than reincarnation. I pick these claims not because I think they're likely to be valid, but as examples of contentions that might be true.

 ;)

Kimberly

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2007, 11:41:48 am »
could someone please explain to me the idea of reincarnation and how it works?

  Thanks, James
Idea of reincarnation:

Goodbye cruel world!
*die*
Oh Snap! I am still concious, OH! That's right, gah silly me!
...
Hrm, I think I can learn from being a plant this time, what say you?
...
Oh! WARM sun, nice!
...
Oh <poo>...
*lawn is mowed*
...
Oh SNAP! I wasn't done yet! *pout* Oh well.
...
Hrm, how about a moose this time...
...
*yawn*


Etc.


Pretty basic idea right?  I.e. that YOU are more than your body.

This said the theories about the how differ and I will not relate my memories of such here;

Melissa-kitty

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2007, 03:07:09 pm »
Different religious and cultural traditions have differing ideas of reincarnation or rebirth (the terms matter). Very different ideas on what exactly is transmitted, what is a "soul", karma, the purpose of rebirth. Check out articles on hinduism, buddhism to start, but there are a lot of other traditions with these ideas. Happy hunting!
Tara

Yvonne

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 12:55:12 am »
Well, if reincarnation exists, how did anyone get here to begin with?

Kimberly

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 02:38:28 am »
Complicated that, an I doubt you would believe my tail anyway ;)

But for humans... Um, no idea actually. That is one of the blank spots I have.

katia

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 07:27:48 pm »
i've been thinking about this thread ;).  i've come to the conclusion that reincarnation is possible, but it presupposes the existence of a soul that is separate from the physical body. as an atheist, i see no evidence that leads me to believe this to be true.  of course, the energy encompassed in the matter that is [me] will go to the fire that consumes my body or the life forms that decompose it; i suppose that could be a form of [reincarnation].

now, there's also a rather limited form of reincarnation called [quantum immortality] but it's only possible if the following two conditions are true.

1. reality is infinite, or at least sufficiently large that multiple exact copies of our brain exist. this would include many-worlds interpretations of quantum mechanics but despite the posted links is really not limited by those interpretations.

2. identity derives from brain process. meaning if two brains perform the same exact process, and contain the same exact information they share the same identity.

if these two conditions are met then the death of one brain copy does not necessarily result in the death of all brain copies. and [identity] continues on in living brain copies.

the key is we tend to assume that we only have one brain copy because our observations of reality are unable to distinguish between exact copies of reality. in fact quantum experiments such as [young's double slit] experiment give us strong hints that reality is multi-valued. indeed maybe the reason behind quantum indeterminacy is that we are unsure which exact copy of our brain we are. in other words, observer collapse of the quantum wavefunction could simply be the splitting of the identity of the observer.   :-\

Kimberly

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 10:24:20 pm »
Ok, I can understand that dilemma well enough. Do you have a handy explanation for the auras and such (truthfully I do not think that is related to a soul at all but *shrug*)? What of OOBs and the like? Hrm, anything else I can think of is too personal of a context (I.e. would not translate; kind of have to have been here I guess.) ... *ponder*

You know, to me, this is kind of strange. In my life, for as far back as I can remember, I have always had no doubt of past lives, remembrances of them all though history, etc. From where I sit is it kind of an eye opener to realize that not everyone either never thought on the topic or just didn't want to remember. Of course, that may still be the case with this particular topic but *shrug* My eyes were opened a while ago at another place. It is just kind of awe inspiring that so few others have had the same benefit of what I have. Heh, not that that does you any good, of course, but *shrug* If it means anything to you, to me, reincarnation and souls and past lives and stuff are facts.

In the context of this thread the amusing part is I was not taught this, heck I don't give much credence to any religion, some more than others. *shrug* So, for what it is worth.


Sand in the wind...

Offline Dorothy

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Re: reincarnation
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 01:16:10 am »
I dont know.  The idea of reincarnation seems to be that you return to earth in a new body to learn the lessons you failed to learn the first time. The problem I have with that is, no one remembers the previous lives, so how are they supposed to learn from them?  Most people rely upon hypnosis to do this, but I dont think it counts.  There have been many instances where people have remembered their past lives while being hypnotized, but my point of view is that those are false memories that are created while they are being coached.   Look up cryptomnesia to see how that works. If someone had lived as an Egyptian in a past life, for example, then they should be able to speak Egyptian under hypnosis, but they cant.

Kimberly

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 03:33:45 am »
While reincarnation can be about failure to learn stuff previous, it can also be about new things, both fun and not so fun. *shrug* Think of life as a school; Each reincarnation is a new semester full of new classes. Some are repeats of things you may need/want brushed up on; Some are fun things you've enjoyed in the past, an some are just down right new things never before experienced.

*shrug*

That is the reincarnation I know anyway.



But this said, not everyone is oblivious to lives past lived. This is one of the reasons I speak with such certainty. I remember more than most, I always have. Heck, made a point to for that matter. That is not good or special it simply is. It taints my perspective and influences my life.

But that said I am a bit iffy on past life regression, although I have heard/read of fairly convincing examples. Myself, personally, I've never tried nor thought to try such. ... An truthfully, most people use meditation for such. Which, in my opinion is a good/valid way. Presuming you know how and can meditate anyway.

In your example of language the references I've mentioned above (quite a while ago really I guess) had both language and accurate historical recorded facts. *shrug* I suppose it is where one chooses to look and what to trust.


That said, trust yourself, just be certain you know what you are doing first. Trust yourself does not really mean trust the human that is you right now, but rather the deep self that is you. "soul" or whatever if you prefer. YOU. I know most are oblivious to that but you may find it if you look. In theory anyway, I am not you after all. I can't very well tell you how to run yourself, but thankfully YOU already know...


*shrug* This is a topic I find to be fun and at times enlightening. Please think nothing of it if I tend to carry on a bit.


Blessed Be.

Melissa-kitty

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 05:12:31 am »
I meditated on past lives several years back. Saw and experienced some remarkable things, and some things that freaked me out. Try being raped and murdered as a 12yo girl. It stopped me from looking. It did possibly explain some bodily quirks that I have, that are related to past injuries, or maybe those past injuries in my present life contributed to my building a life-story around them. I have spoken Russian in my sleep, that I don't have any but minimal knowledge of, awake. I guess that I don't think that past lives are all that important. What's important is THIS life. This time around. I really don't want to do all this stuff again.
Blessings, Tara

Jeannette

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 03:43:04 pm »
I'm a Christian, and have never really believed in reincarnation, or thought much about it. I realize that most Christians believe that there is no reincarnation within Christianity.  Personally I think there are many problems with the salvation-by works doctrine of reincarnation. First, there are many practical problems. For instance:
1. We must ask, why does one get punished for something he or she cannot remember having done in a previous life?
2. If the purpose of karma is to rid humanity of its selfish desires, then why hasn't there been a noticeable improvement in human nature after all the millennial of reincarnations?
3. If reincarnation and the law of karma are so beneficial on a practical level, then how do advocates of this doctrine explain the immense and ever-worsening social and economic problems, including widespread poverty, starvation, disease, and horrible suffering in India, where reincarnation has been systematically taught through out its history?

There are also many biblical problems with believing in reincarnation. For example, in 2 Corinthians 5:8 the apostle Paul states, "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." At death, the Christian immediately goes into the presence of the Lord, not into another body. In keeping with this. Luke 16:19-31 tells us that unbelievers at death go to a place of suffering, not into another body.
Further, Hebrews 9:27 assures us that "man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment." Each human being lives once as a mortal on earth, dies once, and then faces judgement . He does not have a second chance by reincarnating into another body. 

But can't God do anything he wants? Including re-using souls? ;)

cindianna_jones

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2007, 09:43:56 pm »
Quote
If the purpose of karma is to rid humanity of its selfish desires, then why hasn't there been a noticeable improvement in human nature after all the millennial of reincarnations?

I would venture to suggest that this question could be asked of any religious faith.  Is humanity any better for it?  I really don't know the answer.

I'll tell you what I think has made humanity better... more than anything else in known history and that is instant communication.  We see what's happening around the world in real time. We can communicate with anyone.  The pressure of the population forms government opinion all over the world.  So... has the internet become a religion?  I swear... I wonder sometimes.

Oh.. . reincarnation?  It has as much merit as any other belief.  It may well have more believers than anything else.

If there is reincarnation, I still want to come back as a planet!  How would it seem to be a "mother earth"?

Cindi

Offline Fer

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Re: reincarnation
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 01:18:20 am »
I have had to rethink and readjust my own beliefs due to some quite compelling evidence I have researched on reincarnation.  People who had no previous knowledge of people and places , and yet quite accurately describe them in detail.  I have seen one where a woman from Africa was describing the hall way to a university here in the UK , when she attended back in the early 1900s.  Only in going through old archives of the floor plan , did they know about this old hall way , which hadnt been used in something like 50 years or so and had been since covered up.  I previously believed that all spirit live on and progress through the spirit realms; now I have had to come to the conclusion that , some may decide to come back for whatever reason.

There is also more proof of reincarnation from children in the modern age who have accurately described former family, towns that they apparently lived in and the description of cities that had to be found by archaeologists, than there is in factual proof that the bible is more than a fictional account of what the leaders of obscure religious sects wanted their followers to do.

Yet, even though present day Christians deny that reincarnation exists, reincarnation was accepted by the ancient Jews as a fact of life, the same as it was by early Christians, and there are lots of references to the possibility of reincarnation in the new testament. At least there is for those who know how to read, and to not accept their religious leaders words as fact.
The laws of God, the laws of man, He may keep that will and can; Not I. Let God and man decree Laws for themselves and not for me; And if my ways are not as theirs Let them mind their own affairs. - A. E. Housman

The Middle Way

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2007, 03:37:06 pm »
i've been thinking about this thread ;).  i've come to the conclusion that reincarnation is possible, but it presupposes the existence of a soul that is separate from the physical body. as an atheist, i see no evidence that leads me to believe this to be true.  of course, the energy encompassed in the matter that is [me] will go to the fire that consumes my body or the life forms that decompose it; i suppose that could be a form of [reincarnation].

If you look closer into a *school of metaphysical enquiry* that derives from (a more pure form of) and is an extension of Hinduism (Buddhism) you will find that the thought is that this dichotomy of soul vs material is said to be a false duality.

What this indicates to me is that mind is an imprint upon brain, conferred with karma/intention and action. That the thing you call soul, which you doubt (according to your conditioning, like everything else, the conditioned imprint, which may go back a ways), is not separate from its material. One is imbued with the other, in a cycle which only ends when we attain absolute consciousness.

See my speculations in "mind/energy" over to the other playground.  ^-^

Nota

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 08:39:45 AM
Quote
If the purpose of karma is to rid humanity of its selfish desires, then why hasn't there been a noticeable improvement in human nature after all the millennial of reincarnations?
The purpose of karma is not purposeful; it simply is natural law, aka intention and action, what goes around comes around, and ties in with the universal Golden Rule.

The purpose of the consideration of karma is instructive and does intend to eventually get rid of all suffering, in the other Dharmic religion called Buddhism; Time in Hinduism is cyclic (and not linear) and the larger cycle in human terms (a deity's time is according to a far far grander scale) has ages, like epochs. We are in the last big earth-time cycle called Kali Yuga according to this thought, which means the age of the Kali, a MtF deity, the devourer of time, the destroyer of worlds, an age of advancing corruption, which each cycle ends with a rebirth and the slate is clean, again. So that's the Hindu idea. Which indicates that per human nature, it is after all nature, which is entropic, and has limits, and decays before it is clean.

Buddhist consideration of karma has another take on how we get free of the wheel of samsara, the merry go round of birth and death and rebirth.

Thundra

Re: reincarnation
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2007, 08:35:02 pm »
1. We must ask, why does one get punished for something he or she cannot remember having done in a previous life?

If you knew what had happened in your previous lives while in a new incarnation, than it would render your free will moot. Therefore, as a soul, you agree to come into the world under certain conditions. You are destined to meet certain people, because you prearranged it. But, because you have free will in this life, you may or may not follow thru on those desires when you get here.

The idea that we have to come back to correct something is a very christian ideal. It is based on dichotomous thought ~ the idea that everything is either good or bad. Often, we agree to come here for the simple life experience. Whether you view that experience as good or bad, it is your experience.

2. If the purpose of karma is to rid humanity of its selfish desires, then why hasn't there been a noticeable improvement in human nature after all the millennial of reincarnations?

Have you noticed that there are a lot more of us now than before? That is a lot of souls seeking out their own way. As we progress thru our incarnations, we tend to move from the banal and physical, to the intrinsic and instinctual. That which is pleasureable for it's own sake, not out of some value applied by the social dogma of the time.

3. If reincarnation and the law of karma are so beneficial on a practical level, then how do advocates of this doctrine explain the immense and ever-worsening social and economic problems, including widespread poverty, starvation, disease, and horrible suffering in India, where reincarnation has been systematically taught through out its history?

On a practical physical level, or on a practical spiritual level? Most of the beneficial things we learn about life come thru pain and suffering, not thru instant gratification, or the accumulation of material goods. Those that are materially comfortable tend to overlook the basic beauty and value of life. Perhaps those we view as suffering are better off than all of the people in the civilized world. They often tend to be more content and centered, even in their suffering. Whereas people that are materially wealthy seem to never be happy or satisfied in their lives.

Christianity seems to me, to operate on a value added system, whereas those that believe in karma and reincarnation tend to believe in more of a value neutral system. Christians seem to need to know that they are happier than thou, whereas I simply need to know that I am happy, and no one else has anything to do with it.


Offline OlivierDeSillegue

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Re: reincarnation
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 07:49:38 pm »
I am sorry to reanimating a topic that hasn't had replies in a while, but I feel that I need to speak my opinion on this subject.

Reincarnation is something that is very real to me. Although I have never been tested or underwent any form of hypnosis, I still have very vivid memories of living in the past. Formerly, I was known as Armand de Sillègue d'Autevielle d'Athos. I was born on May 24 1623 and I died sometimes in September of 1645, in the Pré-au-Clerc in Paris. Over the past ten years or so, I've had more and more memories of this time, my parents, my older brother, and my role as a musketeer of the King.

To me, this is very real, very lived. I still identify with this former identity and I will change my name to reflect this reality. It has nothing to do with any kind of religion, I don't care about repaying for any kind of bad deed, I'm not trying to debate about the purpose of cycles. It just is for me.

I have tried to discuss this in another website, but I didn't get any kind of response for it. I'm really hoping that I will be able to share about it more here.

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