Author Topic: Pope condemns conformation surgery  (Read 7089 times)

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Offline John406

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2019, 09:12:11 am »
Pope condemns conformation surgery

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/10/pope-condemns-gender-confirmation-surgery-transgender-people/#.Wwb09RW9Xx8.facebook

Pink News/by  Bill Browning    10/07/2017

'conformation surgery for transgender people'

Sad to see indeed; Pope Francis is the only pope that I actually kinda like, and I'm personally agnostic; meaning, I don't believe or propose to know anything at all without some kind of scientifically sound reason to believe it. He seems to be ignorant though in his stance that gender-confirmation surgery is sinful in any way.

I do however agree with him that teaching students in school that their gender is something they can pick and choose is wrong. Gender, sexuality, and religion have no place in public schools in my opinion. School should be a place for academic study only; it's not their place to mess with the gender identity, sexual orientation or religious indoctrination of children; none of those are academic subjects, they're social subjects; something you should learn in college as a fully grown adult in a sociology or psychology course that you pay for with your own money; or on the internet through personal exploration lol.

Public schools have little business teaching kids anything much beyond reading, writing, mathematics, science, history, art, music, and health if you ask me; teaching them anything else borders too close to developmental interference. I was never taught in school that I could choose to be female; I've always been female despite being born biologically male, and I learned that all on my own; nobody needed to push me in one direction or the other, and I'm glad that they didn't.

Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2019, 09:14:37 am »
Sad to see indeed; Pope Francis is the only pope that I actually kinda like, and I'm personally agnostic; meaning, I don't believe or propose to know anything at all without some kind of scientifically sound reason to believe it. He seems to be ignorant though in his stance that gender-confirmation surgery is sinful in any way.

I do however agree with him that teaching students in school that their gender is something they can pick and choose is wrong. Gender, sexuality, and religion have no place in public schools in my opinion. School should be a place for academic study only; it's not their place to mess with the gender identity, sexual orientation or religious indoctrination of children; none of those are academic subjects, they're social subjects; something you should learn in college as a fully grown adult in a sociology or psychology course that you pay for with your own money; or on the internet through personal exploration lol.

Public schools have little business teaching kids anything much beyond reading, writing, mathematics, science, history, art, music, and health if you ask me; teaching them anything else borders too close to developmental interference. I was never taught in school that I could choose to be female; I've always been female despite being born biologically male, and I learned that all on my own; nobody needed to push me in one direction or the other, and I'm glad that they didn't.

I know I didn’t have a choice in my gender. Otherwise I wouldn’t have had to suffer from gender dysphoria.


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Offline John406

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2019, 10:46:16 am »
I know I didn’t have a choice in my gender. Otherwise I wouldn’t have had to suffer from gender dysphoria.


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Precisely; glad to see the Pope at least agrees on that subject. Personally I like to think he was just trying to placate his colleagues as delicately as he could. Opting for surgery is a choice, gender is not. I think that's all he was trying to say, but threw in more words as to not receive too much backlash from his more fiercely devout and biased contemporaries. He could very well have been somehow forced into the situation, and tried to navigate it as carefully as possible. Or not; it's just what I like to think because despite not being Christian or Catholic, I think he's the best Pope I've ever seen. He even defended atheists once, saying that plenty of atheists go to heaven simply because of God's love and grace, or something along those lines. He probably received a lot of backlash for that one lol. He's like, the cool rebel Pope lol. I have a fairly deep appreciation for him; yards better than the typical doom and gloom philosophy I've seen from a lot of religious folk. Pope Francis seems to be more about peace and love and harmony; quite the breath of fresh air in my opinion.  :)

Offline John406

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2019, 10:52:17 am »
Personally though, I don't believe doing anything in life is a choice; I don't believe in the concept of free will/freedom of choice. That's actually one of the only things I've found that both science and religion agree upon; that everything is predetermined, and that nobody has any choice in anything at all; surgery or gender, or anything else. We're all just along for the ride. The moment gravity first got it's foothold in the universe in the aftermath of the Big Bang or whatever, it was literally all downhill from there lol; written in stone in that very instant. Action and reaction; cause and effect or what have you. Big proponent of Chaos Theory/The Butterfly effect.

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of the shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of the horse, the rider was lost.
For want of the rider, the battle was lost.
For want of the battle, the kingdom was lost.
...And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2019, 11:39:45 am »
Quote
that everything is predetermined, and that nobody has any choice in anything at all

????

I guess you haven't heard of quantum mechanics, where a lot of things are random.
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Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2019, 11:53:08 am »
????

I guess you haven't heard of quantum mechanics, where a lot of things are random.

But there is also chaos theory, which seems to indicate that randomness is impossible and all things are determined by the initial state.

My own personal beliefs are somewhere in between. I believe that life is like a video game; the plot and course are predetermined, but we have freedom along the course to move about and make choices.

Quantum physics are super interesting, especially when you consider that both time and space are pixelated and some of the leading quantum theorists believe we are existing in a simulation of some sort.

If that is the case, then we must ask who created the simulation, why they created it, and what is it simulating?


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Offline AnneK

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2019, 12:27:38 pm »
Quote
If that is the case, then we must ask who created the simulation, why they created it, and what is it simulating?

https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-10-12   ;)
I'm a 67 year old AMAB who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline John406

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2019, 07:32:12 pm »
????

I guess you haven't heard of quantum mechanics, where a lot of things are random.

Seemingly random anyway. There could be an order to it all that we simply don't understand yet.  ;)

But there is also chaos theory, which seems to indicate that randomness is impossible and all things are determined by the initial state.

My own personal beliefs are somewhere in between. I believe that life is like a video game; the plot and course are predetermined, but we have freedom along the course to move about and make choices.

I believe we have a wonderful illusion of choice, but in the end, the "choices" we make are the product of our values and personal philosophies, which are the product of our environment. From the moment we're born, we're being bombarded with stimulus from the outside world, shaping who we eventually become, for better or for worse. That's why I have such an easy time forgiving people for the most heinous of acts; things that most people wouldn't even consider forgiving. In my mind, it's not really they're fault; they're simply doing the next most logical outcome in the sequence of events in their lives. I could've been born in Saudi Arabia and grown up to be a member of the Taliban, fully believing that I was doing Allah's work and that I was in the right and America is evil. We're all the heroes of our own story; and we're all the villain in somebody else's. It's nobody's fault; it simply...is. Isness, in it's purest form.  ^-^


Quantum physics are super interesting, especially when you consider that both time and space are pixelated and some of the leading quantum theorists believe we are existing in a simulation of some sort.

I'm unsure about simulation theory. It seems to make sense on the surface, but at the same time, I believe the reason there seems to be an order to things is because that's just how our brains are wired to make sense of the world. Light for example, and the ways our eyes have evolved to see it. Reality actually looks NOTHING like what we actually perceive. If we were to view reality without the filter of our eyes, it wouldn't make a single lick of sense to us lol. It would just look like a messy glob of molecules; completely alien and unrecognizable to us, with no apparent order at all lol. That would be a <not allowed> way to live lol, so our brains and our eyes have evolved in such a way to make sense of everything, which is why everything seems so perfectly structured and ordered to us. It could also be that consciousness itself creates reality; the further we look out into space, the more we find, because we can't comprehend the idea of absolute "nothing", and so we're constantly and subconsciously creating new things to find...



If that is the case, then we must ask who created the simulation, why they created it, and what is it simulating?


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Why must there even be a creator? Who created them? And who created them that created them? And them who created them that created them who created us? You can ask that question literally forever; to infinity and beyond. Which makes me think that there is no creator of the Universe, and that the universe itself is actually infinite; with no beginning and no end; the Big Bang being simply "a" Big Bang in a much much larger (infinitely larger) universe. Infinity is just too hard for our brains to truly comprehend, so it's easier to assign some kind of a creator to it all. Perhaps that's the case, perhaps it's not and there is a creator; either way I don't really think it matters too much; it doesn't change the fact that we don't have a real say in anything lol. If it is a simulation, I'd assume that extraterrestrials created the simulation as a means to save their species from annhilation; the simulation is just sped up really fast, (relatively speaking; they could perceive time entirely differently), so that they can see if we, the simulation, find a way to survive what they could not. Self preservation is the underlying drive of all creatures on earth, so I'd assume it's the same with extraterrestrials; they're seeking an answer to a problem that threatens their existence, and by creating a simulation, they can observe ours and countless other cultures to see if there's any way to avoid the crisis. Sadly though, I'm afraid they'll turn up empty handed, because everything is predetermined, and no matter how hard you try, the Universe will always have it's way in the end. It's like with the time travel theory that if you went back in time to try and save a loved one from dying, that the universe would find a way to correct the paradox and they'd just end up dying some other way the following day. Nature abhors a vacuum lol.

Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2019, 08:04:17 pm »
Seemingly random anyway. There could be an order to it all that we simply don't understand yet.  ;)

I believe we have a wonderful illusion of choice, but in the end, the "choices" we make are the product of our values and personal philosophies, which are the product of our environment. From the moment we're born, we're being bombarded with stimulus from the outside world, shaping who we eventually become, for better or for worse. That's why I have such an easy time forgiving people for the most heinous of acts; things that most people wouldn't even consider forgiving. In my mind, it's not really they're fault; they're simply doing the next most logical outcome in the sequence of events in their lives. I could've been born in Saudi Arabia and grown up to be a member of the Taliban, fully believing that I was doing Allah's work and that I was in the right and America is evil. We're all the heroes of our own story; and we're all the villain in somebody else's. It's nobody's fault; it simply...is. Isness, in it's purest form.  ^-^

I'm unsure about simulation theory. It seems to make sense on the surface, but at the same time, I believe the reason there seems to be an order to things is because that's just how our brains are wired to make sense of the world. Light for example, and the ways our eyes have evolved to see it. Reality actually looks NOTHING like what we actually perceive. If we were to view reality without the filter of our eyes, it wouldn't make a single lick of sense to us lol. It would just look like a messy glob of molecules; completely alien and unrecognizable to us, with no apparent order at all lol. That would be a <not allowed> way to live lol, so our brains and our eyes have evolved in such a way to make sense of everything, which is why everything seems so perfectly structured and ordered to us. It could also be that consciousness itself creates reality; the further we look out into space, the more we find, because we can't comprehend the idea of absolute "nothing", and so we're constantly and subconsciously creating new things to find...

Why must there even be a creator? Who created them? And who created them that created them? And them who created them that created them who created us? You can ask that question literally forever; to infinity and beyond. Which makes me think that there is no creator of the Universe, and that the universe itself is actually infinite; with no beginning and no end; the Big Bang being simply "a" Big Bang in a much much larger (infinitely larger) universe. Infinity is just too hard for our brains to truly comprehend, so it's easier to assign some kind of a creator to it all. Perhaps that's the case, perhaps it's not and there is a creator; either way I don't really think it matters too much; it doesn't change the fact that we don't have a real say in anything lol. If it is a simulation, I'd assume that extraterrestrials created the simulation as a means to save their species from annhilation; the simulation is just sped up really fast, (relatively speaking; they could perceive time entirely differently), so that they can see if we, the simulation, find a way to survive what they could not. Self preservation is the underlying drive of all creatures on earth, so I'd assume it's the same with extraterrestrials; they're seeking an answer to a problem that threatens their existence, and by creating a simulation, they can observe ours and countless other cultures to see if there's any way to avoid the crisis. Sadly though, I'm afraid they'll turn up empty handed, because everything is predetermined, and no matter how hard you try, the Universe will always have it's way in the end. It's like with the time travel theory that if you went back in time to try and save a loved one from dying, that the universe would find a way to correct the paradox and they'd just end up dying some other way the following day. Nature abhors a vacuum lol.
Data abhors a vacuum. Ordered complexity abhors a vacuum.

We know that biological life runs on programs. Genomes, DNA, etc. are just programs. They are written in codes that have observable syntax. But a code cannot write itself. You can have programs that write programs, but eventually you still end up with the problem of authorship. Some intelligence had to be the origin of the codes and programs. And that originator must be self existent without beginning.

And since we know that time is immutably linked to space, it would be reasonable to think that any entity that could create space and time would have to dwell outside of space and time. To exist outside of space and time would require that the entity be without beginning or end.

The existence of God seems perfectly logical to me.

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Offline Linde

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2019, 08:09:09 pm »
Data abhors a vacuum. Ordered complexity abhors a vacuum.

We know that biological life runs on programs. Genomes, DNA, etc. are just programs. They are written in codes that have observable syntax. But a code cannot write itself. You can have programs that write programs, but eventually you still end up with the problem of authorship. Some intelligence had to be the origin of the codes and programs. And that originator must be self existent without beginning.
They must have been on lunch break when they wrote my code, and the cat ran across the keyboard!

Quote
The existence of God seems perfectly logical to me.

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Could it have been the flying spaghetti monster, who caused all that?


Offline AnneK

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2019, 08:42:02 pm »
Quote
Why must there even be a creator? Who created them? And who created them that created them? And them who created them that created them who created us?

Yep, that's where the creator argument falls apart.  If you rely on a creator, you then have to explain the existence of that creator.

I'm a 67 year old AMAB who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline AnneK

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2019, 08:43:35 pm »
Data abhors a vacuum. Ordered complexity abhors a vacuum.

We know that biological life runs on programs. Genomes, DNA, etc. are just programs. They are written in codes that have observable syntax. But a code cannot write itself. You can have programs that write programs, but eventually you still end up with the problem of authorship. Some intelligence had to be the origin of the codes and programs. And that originator must be self existent without beginning.

And since we know that time is immutably linked to space, it would be reasonable to think that any entity that could create space and time would have to dwell outside of space and time. To exist outside of space and time would require that the entity be without beginning or end.

The existence of God seems perfectly logical to me.

That sounds a lot like "intelligent design", which is just warmed over creationism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
I'm a 67 year old AMAB who has been thinking about SRS for many years.  I also was a  full cross dresser for a few years.  I wear a bra, pantyhose and nail polish daily because it just feels right.

Started HRT April 17, 2019.

Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2019, 09:17:13 pm »
That sounds a lot like "intelligent design", which is just warmed over creationism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

I won't deny that. I am a creationist.    ;)

Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2019, 09:22:47 pm »
They must have been on lunch break when they wrote my code, and the cat ran across the keyboard!
Could it have been the flying spaghetti monster, who caused all that?

I adhere to the Biblical account of the created order being subjected to a curse that brought death and disorder.

Spaghetti is tasty, but doesn't make for good theological discussion.

Offline John406

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2019, 05:15:50 am »
My head hurts lol. >.<

Offline BlueJaye

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2019, 07:30:30 am »
My head hurts lol. >.<
Spaghetti is loaded with carbs, too much can give you a headache...

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Offline Linde

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2019, 07:55:44 am »
I adhere to the Biblical account of the created order being subjected to a curse that brought death and disorder.
You mean that I am cursed?  I don't think so, I bet it was the cat running across the keyboard of the code creator!  I think I am blessed, think how easy it was for me to transition!


Offline Charlie Nicki

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2019, 09:42:15 am »
I honestly don't care at all about anything he has to say lol.
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Offline MichelleL

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2020, 06:44:21 pm »
I'm a practicing Catholic and I guess this is one area where I just have to disagree with the pope. 

In my experience explaining being trans to people, while many are sympathetic, most just don't "get it".  Being trans is a bit like faith.  To another trans person, no explanation is necessary, to a non-trans person, no explanation is possible.  Faith is the same.  If you have it, no explanation is necessary, if you don't, no explanation is possible.

So it's just as hard for me to explain being trans to others, as it is to my non-Catholic friends why I'm Catholic!

Offline Idontknowbutiwould

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Re: Pope condemns conformation surgery
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2020, 12:28:31 am »
Hi Devlyn,

I'm not worried about you.  I imagine you have no problem taking care of yourself.  But I do worry about transgender children brought up in traditional Catholic families.

Take care,
Paige :)

I have been raised by a Catholic family and conservative political ideas. Devotion, prayers and political party of right. And here I am, they took me to specialists, puberty blockers at 14, real life experience at 15, my grandfather paid for my breast augmentation at 16 and will finance my sexual reassignment. My family went to the institute to say that they would treat me like a woman and they went through all the town hall to get my name and sex changed in my documents. Think what you say, Catholicism in its elementary branch is about charity and empathy and for many personal thoughts, a good family will accept their little one. I went from grandson to son, and from son to daughter and without them I would not be a young lady. If the Pope says that, he says what many people think due to lack of information and stigma about transgender people, but in science there is also God. I personally believe in the dogmas of the Church and in their charitable work (in my country many poor people eat thanks to them) but not in everything a bishop says even if he is the first bishop of Rome. A person can choose to worship God through whatever religion he wants or be an atheist, but not judge anyone, and there are more atheists who judge Christians than the contrary.
18 years old.

2008: Put a wig on primary school
2014: Coming out to my family
2016: Puberty blockers
2017: Real life experience
2018: Breast augmentation with paternal consent
2019: Identity document changed
2020: Getting my SRS and FFS? I hope

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