Author Topic: Feminism and Trans activism  (Read 461 times)

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Offline Kat-lady

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Feminism and Trans activism
« on: December 18, 2019, 04:50:51 am »
I consider myself extremely liberal and a supporter of feminism.  I have recently been looking into the idea of women, of any sexual orientation, being willing to date trans women (I’d prefer not to be alone forever, but it doesn’t look promising).

In my searches, I discovered that some trans activists are accusing cis women of being transphobic because they are most often unwilling to consider trans women as potential mates.  Of course this is preposterous, because no one should be told who they can and cannot be attracted to.  I thought this was horrendous. No oppressed group should be climbing the ladder of equality by pushing another oppressed group down.  Sure there are times when my equality might step on the toes of someone else’s or theirs on mine.  This is to be expected in a society.  No one gets exactly what they want at all times, but the situations should be handled with empathy and understanding.

This led me to start looking into the effects trans women may be having on feminism.  After watching a few debates and lectures, I was again horrified!  The gender critical feminists I watched are spouting the same arguments and phrases that people have historically used to oppress blacks, gays, and WOMEN!
Phrases like “biologically obvious” (superiority of whites over blacks, men over women, unnatural nature of being gay)
Definitions are “time tested” (using the history of oppression as evidence that it is correct and justified)
Can’t “rely on self identification as fact” (using this to justify conversion therapy and that being gay is “a choice”)

I’m not naive.  I know all groups spin facts, use worthless statistics, rhetoric, and yes, even lie.  Even the groups I happen to be a member of.  It just really saddens me.

I was all set to support the feminists in this matter.  I still do.  You can’t dictate to people who they can date, and the sexual rights of women is the last place you should be trampling.  I just won’t be pounding on desks or climbing on soap boxes until they get some arguments they didn’t steal from old white men.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 06:13:07 am by Kat-lady »

Offline SadieBlake

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Re: Feminism and Trans activism
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 09:28:36 am »
The mainstream of feminism is neither "gender critical" or "TERFy". I think the visibility of trans women has created a significant backlash particularly among lesbian women and honestly I think their fear / response is driven by multiple factors. One would be that enough trans women are passable that some lesbians are as squicked by the prospect of finding someone they're attracted to was amab, (not dissimilar from most straight men).

Another would be that a fair number of trans women are so clearly still masculine socialized. I have more empathy for that, personally I choose not to spend time with toxic masculinity, even when it's visually femme.

I supported the need for women's-exclusive safe spaces even when I was excluded from them. However today, I've performed in a production of the Vagina Monologues, I'm a facilitator of a discussion group that runs at the longest continuously operating women's center in the US.

I've been involved with a few women since transitioning and my dating experience makes it clear I'm not everyone's cuppa tea. That's ok too.

I'm feminist, I support inclusive feminism and the women of my community seem to appreciate this. 'nuff said.

p.s. while there's a huge way to go, the reason we're more visible now is because more of us have insurance covering medical interventions. That visibility creates challenges also.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈

Offline F_P_M

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Re: Feminism and Trans activism
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2019, 02:07:54 pm »
real femininists do NOT spout the stuff gender critical terfs do.

all the stuff they're saying is frankly mysogynistic. Men are predisposed genetically to be abusers? Sounds like an excuse to remove culpability from bad behaviour from guys there.
women are weak and fragile and always victims? Really? All the women i've ever known would kick your head in if you ever suggested they needed to be treated like a damsel in distress.

And don't even get me started on the women needing to look, dress and act a certain way or be "basically men" (like that poor lesbian athlete with the naturally high T who Mumsnet were calling a "man" and constantly judging based solely on her appearance)

that is NOT feminism, that's mysogyny and bigotry mixed with a nice big dose of racism.

Genital preference is a thing and I fully support that, after all, sometimes something is a deal breaker. For me it's a hairy back (lol) but for someone else it might be a penis or whatever. Not everyone's gonna be into everyone else and only scumbags try to guilt someone into sleeping with them.

But I do think that trans women deserve a seat at the women's table and in those safe spaces. After all, you ladies are subjected to the same nonsense cis women are, with the ADDED awful of transphobia, homophobia and gay panic on top of that regardless of your sexuality.
the fact of the matter is trans women are disproportionately likely to end up homeless or hurt, and that's horrifying.
Real feminism would embrace trans women as another group of women with specific needs and issues (like women of colour have different needs and issues to white women) who still suffer from a patriarchal society that deems them "lesser"

What I really don't understand from the terfs is their ongoing rhetoric about "protecting" women and girls. From what? Cis, straight men are the major aggressor. How does denying trans women the right to exist stop cis straight men? If one of them wants to come into a woman's only space they WILL, there's nothing at all to stop them walking into a ladies toilet or changing room, it's not like there's security at the door.
Do women WANT security at the door? Would you really want to have to give over ID or worse, subject yourself to a physical exam just to try on some pants or pee?
That'd be a huge violation for any woman to have to endure.

And this is what I don't understand. How does denying trans women rights and dignity and respect in any way "protect" anyone? It's not like trans people are monsters out to eat your children or something. And these women KNOW that, they have to know that, they're not stupid. So what are they trying to protect from?
It doesn't make any sense. There's nothing to protect. Trans women aren't a threat to anyone, they're the ones UNDER threat.

Even transition hasn't dulled my intense feminist streak. Though I have to admit, i'm finding it hard to accept that sometimes it's not my argument to have. Having spent over 30 years being percieved as female i've had a louder voice in the feminist debate than a man would, had what's seen as a vested interest (i'd argue it's in EVERYONE'S benefit as a mysogynistic society hurts men too) but now i'm seen as a guy it's like... I don't want to talk OVER women.
It's hard to shut up sometimes and let the women speak.
But ultimately women SHOULD be the ones leading the discussion.

it just makes me angry that society seems to have decided that people like us, our very existance is something open to debate or controversy.
That's really horrible.

Honestly? What really grinds my gears most is seeing terfs dismantle decades of progress in equality for everyone. A group who's scared will willingly surrender rights for the delusion of safety, and that's what really upsets me. They seem to be willing to give up what was so hard fought for to fight an imaginary boogieman (or woman) and all that does is play right into the hands of the real threat, those rich, powerful, cis, straight white men. The only people who benefit from oppression.

Offline Paul Muad-Dib

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Re: Feminism and Trans activism
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 03:12:49 pm »
Now you can see what an ideology based on classifying everything into groups of "more oppressed" to "less oppressed", - and therefore who "deserves" a voice or consideration based on their place in this oppression pyramid or their physical features - actually ends up like.

Not a pretty sight. 

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