Author Topic: Please help me understand….  (Read 2007 times)

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Offline mako9802

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Please help me understand….
« on: November 13, 2021, 12:47:42 pm »
Okay this didn’t happen here on Susan’s. But it was on <not allowed>.  I made a comment that I thought was innocent.  I said a trans man or a trans female was born as a male or a female respectively.  Again that is a fact.  But I immediately followed that statement up with we all have a right to be who and what we feel we need to be to happy.  I got attacked left and right, and accused of being a bigot. I was like where is this mess coming from?  Can someone help me how saying that we all were born as a male or female is a bad statement..

Offline putaringonit

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2021, 01:07:54 pm »
I am guessing you got attacked because some people think that trans folks are born as trans, meaning that we were always the gender we identify as, even if our genitals were different when we were born, and your comment stating otherwise triggered them.

But that's just my guess *shrugs*

Offline mako9802

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2021, 01:34:24 pm »
I get that some people always felt that they were different than there birth gender.  But everyone and the larger society probably doesn’t believe that.  I just want everyone to be happy is all I meant by that post.  For me I am a androgyne I accept that I have both energies in me.  I was born a “king” but always wanted to be a “queen”.  Literally all my life…we are all different…

Offline Gertrude

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2021, 04:57:18 pm »
I get that some people always felt that they were different than there birth gender.  But everyone and the larger society probably doesn’t believe that.  I just want everyone to be happy is all I meant by that post.  For me I am a androgyne I accept that I have both energies in me.  I was born a “king” but always wanted to be a “queen”.  Literally all my life…we are all different…

If that's the case, then there's no reason to make a declaration about birth gender. Generally speaking, sex and gender are different things anyway. I think the best way to get along/everyone be happy is if we accept who we are and then accept others as they are. Nothing to be sold on or minds changed if people thought that way. Therein lies the problem. Not everyone is willing to accept others as they are, but most people don't understand their internal beliefs and what the foundations of their fears are, so they become reaction vessels to the world they interact with.
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But change is"

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Offline Allie Jayne

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2021, 05:36:41 pm »
The commonly used descriptors are Assigned Male At Birth, or Assigned Female At Birth. Science has shown us that we are indeed born trans, as part of our brains develop differently in utero, so I can see where some people may not like the descriptor 'born male/female. Unfortunately, most trans people are unaware of the circumstances of why they are trans and it causes too many problems.

Hugs,

Allie
1958 Knew I should be a girl
1961 Told my mother I was a girl
1976 told my fiance I was trans
1999 told my 2nd wife to be I was trans
2000 began being me at home
2018 Dysphoria made me seriously sick
2019 started HRT, not sick any more!
        Started electrolysis
2020 Full time, legally Me!
2021 Labiaplasty
        Divorced again and on my own
2022 BA

Offline Maria77

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2021, 08:56:53 pm »
I think Putaringonit defined it pretty well.   For some folks, that kind of language is triggering.   The one thing I’ve learned about the internet is to not get  invested in online drama.

Offline mako9802

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2021, 12:00:50 am »
I get it, but I am a little harder to offend.  Someone saying I was born a male I’m thinking okay I was but why in the heck does that matter to you?  I’m gonna do what I need to anyway.  But I’m also like why do you care?  We all deserve to be whatever we need to be and call ourselves whatever we need to to be happy.  I won’t stand in any persons way of happiness.  I identify as a “androgyne” so for me that doesn’t bother me.  I still have a masculine side and I want to look in the mirror and see something that is at least androgynous to female appearing.  I HATE looking in the mirror and appearing masculine.  My main issue is physical dysphoria not social dysphoria so much….weird huh?

Offline Gertrude

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2021, 06:53:42 am »
I get it, but I am a little harder to offend.  Someone saying I was born a male I’m thinking okay I was but why in the heck does that matter to you?  I’m gonna do what I need to anyway.  But I’m also like why do you care?  We all deserve to be whatever we need to be and call ourselves whatever we need to to be happy.  I won’t stand in any persons way of happiness.  I identify as a “androgyne” so for me that doesn’t bother me.  I still have a masculine side and I want to look in the mirror and see something that is at least androgynous to female appearing.  I HATE looking in the mirror and appearing masculine.  My main issue is physical dysphoria not social dysphoria so much….weird huh?

If you're OK with it, then there's nothing to say. Someone that knows doesn't have to convince others and I mean this with anything. I find social media just an outlet for people's desire to reinforce what they believe that in their hearts there's some doubt and that if we can just get someone to agree we'll feel better about ourselves and our beliefs. It becomes a trap for us and then we wonder why there's so much contention. When we know ourselves a lot of other stuff stops mattering.
"No, her mind is not for rent
To any god or government
Always hopeful, yet discontent
She knows changes aren't permanent
But change is"

Neil Peart

Offline Rakel

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2021, 06:57:43 am »
...  My main issue is physical dysphoria not social dysphoria so much….weird huh?

Not weird at all. I feel the same as you. My main dysphoria was physical, not social.

Speaking for myself, I knew what I needed to do. It did take me a long time before I came to understand myself, but once I accepted myself, it all became clear to me. I needed GCS and since the moment I woke up from surgery, my dysphoria went away and never returned.

As for the social aspects of transition, I am not overly concerned with "passing" as female.  I hardly ever wear make up. I usually dress androgynously (shorts and t-shirt). Feminine affactations are mostly a product of the society we live in, which is just not what I need to be concerned with. I am myself and I am happy as I wish to be.

I am fully aware that others may have a different opinion. If you do, then good for you. I am happy just being myself as I am.




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Offline ChrissyRyan

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2021, 08:05:27 am »
I want to appear my true gender, and I want to be accepted as female in all ways.  Those who are understanding do, regardless how I am dressed.  I am Chrissy to them.  I do try to be out as myself. 

I dress androgynously (shorts, pants, t-shirt, unisex clothes) when I have some concerns about my appearance where I will be at, rather than presenting as my male birth sex.  My birth gender is female, my true gender is female.  The body parts and socialization was wrong for me.

I just want to blend in, be accepted as me, and live a nice life as me.  I do like to hear “her”, “she”, and be addressed Chrissy.  I do not get upset when those pronouns are not used though.  Disappointed sometimes.

Chrissy



Be a good example of good behavior.  Always be kinder than needed.  Be tender to others.  You are as beautiful as the thoughts you think and the words that you speak.   Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding.  Knowledge and action shown without love is not impressive.  If you look for the good in people you will find it. Healthy relationships are so important to good living.  Serve others.

Good living, joy, unity, love, and happiness can come from following these practices: Never let selfishness or conceit motivate you.  Regard others as more important than yourself.  Do not limit attention to only your interests, but include the interests of others

It is not usually about how fast you transition, it is about how well you transition.  
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Offline Oldandcreaky

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2021, 09:03:19 am »
I want to appear my true gender, and I want to be accepted as female in all ways.  Those who are understanding do, regardless how I am dressed.  I am Chrissy to them.  I do try to be out as myself. 

I dress androgynously (shorts, pants, t-shirt, unisex clothes) when I have some concerns about my appearance where I will be at, rather than presenting as my male birth sex.  My birth gender is female, my true gender is female.  The body parts and socialization was wrong for me.

I just want to blend in, be accepted as me, and live a nice life as me.  I do like to hear “her”, “she”, and be addressed Chrissy.  I do not get upset when those pronouns are not used though.  Disappointed sometimes.

Chrissy

Chrissy, you are so kind that it's just wrong that anyone would be unkind to you.

Offline ChrissyRyan

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2021, 10:50:50 am »
Chrissy, you are so kind that it's just wrong that anyone would be unkind to you.

@oldandcreaky


You are so sweet. 

Chrissy
Be a good example of good behavior.  Always be kinder than needed.  Be tender to others.  You are as beautiful as the thoughts you think and the words that you speak.   Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding.  Knowledge and action shown without love is not impressive.  If you look for the good in people you will find it. Healthy relationships are so important to good living.  Serve others.

Good living, joy, unity, love, and happiness can come from following these practices: Never let selfishness or conceit motivate you.  Regard others as more important than yourself.  Do not limit attention to only your interests, but include the interests of others

It is not usually about how fast you transition, it is about how well you transition.  
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I am a brown eyed brunette.

Offline TXSara

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2021, 05:20:41 pm »
I'm probably taking a risk in even joining this conversation -- I am very early into my transition, and I have not experienced the negativity that has caused so many of us to be triggered by seemingly small issues.  That being said...

I think that we (the transgender community) can sometimes be our own worst enemies.  When we get butt-hurt about every single thing a person says that isn't EXACTLY the way we see it, we're only making the people around us feel like they are stepping on eggshells.  So what if someone says "born male" instead of "assigned male at birth"?  Is it really worth correcting them?  On one hand, you are "helping them to be more understanding in the future", and on the other, you're potentially making them feel awkward, embarrassed, or insulted.

I am not worried as much about negativity from others as I am about isolation.  I can take it if someone disagrees with my views, and I can even live with others disagreeing with my desire to transition.  What I really worry about is that my being transgender will make interactions so awkward that people choose to avoid me.  I am hoping that by being kind-hearted and VERY thick-skinned, I will be able to get friends to come back around to being comfortable with me. 

I can definitely say that my home life got a LOT better once my wife and kids started ribbing me about my being a girl.  I think the joking would stop if I started giving them grief about addressing me a specific way.

I guess this was just a long-winded way of saying, "sorry you were attacked, Mako-- what you said doesn't offend me in the slightest."  To each her own, I guess...

~Sara
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 05:20:23 am by TXSara »

Offline mako9802

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2021, 04:25:09 am »
It really bothered me.  I’m technically part of the trans community and got attacked for not saying exactly what the community at large wants me to say.  It was the dumbest <thing> I ever heard.  If a acknowledge that a trans person was born into a bio sex but has a right to live how they need to to be happy you would think that would be enough.  Like you said we are our own worst enemies.  Some of us are easily offended or triggered <people>.  People need to wake up and realize that not everyone is going to see things the exact same way.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 07:53:05 am by Rakel »

Offline Lady Sarah

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2021, 09:47:39 pm »
I view things more like TXSara does, only I am much much older and not so new to transition. I doubt it's just because we share a name and live in the same state.

Trying not to hurt other people's feelings online on some forums can be tricky. It really sucks when a large group thinks you did it to be cruel. Think that's bad? Look at the old Jerry Springer Show, where people come out and say "I was born a man". I think "Really? You were born fully grown?"  Then you get some that (once they get GCS) deny ever having been trans, even to future souses and /or doctors.

Some folks can really be way out there. That's their business. I'll stay down to earth, personally. If I have to worry about every line of semantics someone draws out about the trans umbrella, I'll probably get another blockbuster of a migraine headache. What's worse is that some of those forums expect you to understand all that.
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Offline Ellie_Jean

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2021, 10:24:02 pm »
The commonly used descriptors are Assigned Male At Birth, or Assigned Female At Birth. Science has shown us that we are indeed born trans, as part of our brains develop differently in utero, so I can see where some people may not like the descriptor 'born male/female. Unfortunately, most trans people are unaware of the circumstances of why they are trans and it causes too many problems.

Hugs,

Allie

^^^Precisely this.

If someone makes an honest mistake, I politely correct them and don't take it personally.

If they keep doing it, then I'd probably get ticked.

I wasn't always this way though; I used to let everything slide when I heard someone saying something that wasn't accurate. I guess after "letting it go" so many times, resentments started building up over time. So now I'm not afraid to tell people how it is in the nicest way I can. Most of them seem to appreciate my patience and understanding and willingness to educate in a civil manner. Some of them don't. ...OH WELL! Lol. Haters gonna hate! 😜
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 03:11:30 am by Ellie_Jean »
“Come to the edge!" he said.
"We can't; we're afraid!" they responded.
"Come to the edge!" he said.
"We can't; we will fall!" they responded.
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And they came.
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Offline Ms. Grey

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2022, 10:27:12 pm »
So at first blush I am wondering about the context of the statement about birth sex.
I think because it sounds a little like the sort of thing trans haters drone on about. Perhaps like a variation of the expression, there is only XX and XY.
We know that is categorically not true.
Also, many intersex people transition and they often are people who defy the male female binary at birth.
You may have touched a nerve with those of us who are tired of the insinuation that our assigned sex at birth is our true gender.

Offline Devlyn

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2022, 05:30:09 am »
Okay this didn’t happen here on Susan’s. But it was on <not allowed>.  I made a comment that I thought was innocent.  I said a trans man or a trans female was born as a male or a female respectively.  Again that is a fact.  But I immediately followed that statement up with we all have a right to be who and what we feel we need to be to happy.  I got attacked left and right, and accused of being a bigot. I was like where is this mess coming from?  Can someone help me how saying that we all were born as a male or female is a bad statement..

I think the issue is that you're painting with a broad brush. Saying that a trans man is born a man, or that a trans woman is born a woman, is true for some people, but not all. Which makes your statement "Again, that's a fact"...well, not a fact. Also, I think some people may have misinterpreted what you said, and assumed that you were using the old  "Can't change biology, born with penis means you're a boy, etc" argument.

Generally speaking, "everybody, nobody, all of us, none of us" statements are going to create conflict and misunderstanding. It's usually best to use "I, for me, in my case" statements to avoid the problem.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn
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Offline Gina P

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2022, 06:06:37 am »
   I think in this day and age many individuals seam to have such thin skin or are just looking for an excuse to jump up on their soap box and start preaching. Being early in my transition I get the whole use of proper pronouns thing but don't get my panties in a bunch when someone slips. The nurse at my doctors office left the room after checking my vitals and said "you have a nice day young man". Being dressed as a man I see it as ok. My employee left Friday and said have a good weekend gentlemen, again so what. He came in on Monday and apologized for saying it and hoped he hadn't offended me. I laughed and said perhaps you should have said gentleman, ladies, and those in be tween. Am I throwing away what others have fought for so hard all these years? Not in the least. I have just come to a point in my life where I am able to look at myself and laugh at my insecurities and try to make those around me more comfortable. Are there times when down rite hatefull things being said need to be addressed? Absolutely! But tolerance needs to bee the rule as many don't intend to be rude. "time to get off my soap box and get to work" :D
    Gigi

Hear I sit on the beast
I hold the reins
control it's direction
it carries me where I want
I'm in control, or so I think

The beast is bigger than me,
stronger than me
it's in control no matter how hard I fight
we travel over obstacles,
see great beauty,
traverse dangers.
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Life is a ride
onward I must go
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Offline Ms. Grey

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Re: Please help me understand….
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2022, 08:58:35 am »
May I say to those who think this subject is about being overly sensitive that this is not what is at issue at all. Or should I say, if it is then there are reasons for that.
Those of us who have been living the trans experience for some time know the most common things people say to question our identities.
At no point did the OP specifically state what the context of the statement they made was.
In other words, we do not know what the discussion was that gave rise to the statement that we are all born either male or female.
According to the science this sort of statement is incorrect and there are many examples of how that is so.
The only things we know for certain is that we are born as a human and as a baby.
Which is why some of us bristle at expressions like, born a man or born a woman since nobody is born as an adult person.
Likewise born male or female based solely on the external genitalia which can be ambiguous in the case of an intersex person.
Many of us are familiar with trans oppositional,gender critical, and outright trans hating people using the same or similar statements.
They declare that it is an opinion and not meant to offend anyone.
Opinions are generally based on ones understanding of a subject and when people make statements like the OP, it becomes clear that not enough study has been made of the subject.
Opinions based on minimal understanding are often defined as ignorance, and why not since often times there is a willful ignoring of scientific fact.
This is very easy to research when some effort is made to do so with an open mind and a desire to truly understand.
The introduction of scenarios that have not been mentioned at all by the OP is counterproductive and off topic.
No mention in the OP's story about pronouns, passing, making jokes, or trans community speech.
The subject of discussion is concerning the original statement about how a person is born and the negative reaction received.
It might be called policing when people register their disagreement with the statement but I would offer that we who are trans identified have been policed and kept on the outside of a closed gate for millenia.
It is not only trans people who identify with a binary that are disagreeable to such statements either.
We all live in human societies that are ruled by the 'Normative' rules of life. Cis gender, heterosexual, procreative are the rules for identity. If you are not all three of these things then you are considered a queer person and deserve to be dismissed and shunned as far as normative thinking people are concerned.
Please, can we not see that what is used to identify us at birth is simply what appears between our legs. Further can we have a common understanding that this is not the sole identifier of ones sex or gender regardless of what Normative philosophy compels us to accept as inarguable.
I know someone who was identified as a girl at birth. She lived as a girl and continues to live as a women to this day.
When she was a teen, there was a concern over the fact that she had not yet started menstruating.
After some investigation it was discovered that she has XY chromosomes.
She was identified as a girl because she had a vulva between her legs ( i know, where else would it be) anyway later in life it was found that she also had a vagina.
The testing she underwent showed that she had a vulva, vagina, undescended testes and that she also had androgen insensitivity which explained why she carried on physically and mentally developing rather like a female person.
So, I would ask, was my friend born male or female? Is she cis gender or trans gender? Is she living her life the way she wants or the only way she has known since birth?
In conclusion, the OP who insists that they want everyone to be happy should perhaps make an effort to discuss things in a way that would leave people feeling happy or at least okay with whatever it was that they were contributing their ideas to.
And yes OP, you are a member of the trans spectrum and are entitled to have an opinion and to share your experiences. However it behooves you to do more investigation about why people become unhappy with the statement you made which is not a simple fact, it is an opinion based on a limited understanding. Some of us are trying to express that fact.

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