Topic: Why some try to label differing opinions as “hate”

[Ellie_Jean]

BTW, I am totally in agreement with the "bigots" that MTF kids should not be allowed to compete in sports where being assigned male at birth gives them an unfair advantage.  If you are FTM and you want to join the basketball team, FINE.  If you are MTF and you want to take up figure skating, that's fine too.  Just my opinion...

...I don't understand this at all. 😖

...How does being assigned male at birth give somebody an unfair advantage in sports? 🤨

...And if it really does...then why should they be allowed to take up figure skating? 🤔

...I'm so confused lol. 😅

[Iztaccihuatl]

...I don't understand this at all. 😖

...How does being assigned male at birth give somebody an unfair advantage in sports? 🤨

...And if it really does...then why should they be allowed to take up figure skating? 🤔

...I'm so confused lol. 😅

In practically all sports that measure some dimension to determine a winner, whether the measured dimension was time (over a certain distance, like in running, swimming, speed skating, cross country skiing, etc), distance (track & field jumping and throwing disciplines) or weight (weightlifting), there is a very constant performance gap of 10-12% between men and women. The primary and only proven cause of this performance gap is testosterone, because it leads to an increased muscle mass and also to a higher count of red blood cells for people with testosterone levels in the male range.

Studies have shown that removing testosterone during HRT for transfeminine athletes who were assigned male at birth also leads to a performance drop in the aforementioned 10-12%, usually within 4-6 months of starting HRT. That is why the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete in the female category as long as their testosterone levels are below 10nmol/L, which some governing bodies for specific sports have further lowered to 5nmol/L (144ng/dL in US units). The average female T-levels are between .5 and 2.5 nmol/L (or 15-70ng/dL).

Some folks argue that other testosterone caused changes during puberty, such as increased body height or larger ribcage give trans women an advantage over cis women and these changes cannot be undone by HRT. As far as I know there is no study that actually proves such an advantage. I have also heard equally scientifically unsubstantiated arguments that trans women have a heavier skeleton than cis women, which was built to be operated by a male musculature, but after HRT reduced the muscle mass to female levels, operating a heavier skeleton is actually a disadvantage. Again, none of this has been scientifically proven and my personal feeling is that the mentioned advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

When it comes to trans kids who take puberty blockers and never had higher testosterone levels, there is absolutely no advantage a trans female youth athlete would have over their cis peers at all. That is why the current anti trans legislations in school sports in several states are particularly cruel.

Now, when it comes to judged sports, such as figure skating, gymnastics, half pipe, diving, etc, I don't know if trans athletes have any advantage, although I have to note that at least in figure skating the more complex jumps have always been shown first by men and later by women. I am not sure if this is caused by male muscle mass or because men are more willing to take risk.

[Ellie_Jean]

In practically all sports that measure some dimension to determine a winner, whether the measured dimension was time (over a certain distance, like in running, swimming, speed skating, cross country skiing, etc), distance (track & field jumping and throwing disciplines) or weight (weightlifting), there is a very constant performance gap of 10-12% between men and women. The primary and only proven cause of this performance gap is testosterone, because it leads to an increased muscle mass and also to a higher count of red blood cells for people with testosterone levels in the male range.

Studies have shown that removing testosterone during HRT for transfeminine athletes who were assigned male at birth also leads to a performance drop in the aforementioned 10-12%, usually within 4-6 months of starting HRT. That is why the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete in the female category as long as their testosterone levels are below 10nmol/L, which some governing bodies for specific sports have further lowered to 5nmol/L (144ng/dL in US units). The average female T-levels are between .5 and 2.5 nmol/L (or 15-70ng/dL).

Some folks argue that other testosterone caused changes during puberty, such as increased body height or larger ribcage give trans women an advantage over cis women and these changes cannot be undone by HRT. As far as I know there is no study that actually proves such an advantage. I have also heard equally scientifically unsubstantiated arguments that trans women have a heavier skeleton than cis women, which was built to be operated by a male musculature, but after HRT reduced the muscle mass to female levels, operating a heavier skeleton is actually a disadvantage. Again, none of this has been scientifically proven and my personal feeling is that the mentioned advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

When it comes to trans kids who take puberty blockers and never had higher testosterone levels, there is absolutely no advantage a trans female youth athlete would have over their cis peers at all. That is why the current anti trans legislations in school sports in several states are particularly cruel.

Now, when it comes to judged sports, such as figure skating, gymnastics, half pipe, diving, etc, I don't know if trans athletes have any advantage, although I have to note that at least in figure skating the more complex jumps have always been shown first by men and later by women. I am not sure if this is caused by male muscle mass or because men are more willing to take risk.

Love this. And of course, there's also the fact that human beings are individuals which come in all different shapes and sizes and sexes. When it comes to sports, I don't really think gender or sex matters. I'm 5'9 and approximately 150 pounds. ...My cisgender biologically female cousin though is 5'11 and 170 pounds. She could probably whoop my tucas six ways to Sunday in sports. There are a lot of big, strong, powerful women in the world lol. ...A lot of them in sports arenas LOL. 😅

[TXSara]

Thanks Iztaccihuatl for your reasoned argument.  I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, though... my only point was that many of the issues we tend to demonize others over are not quite as "open and shut" as we might like them to be.  It's always best to try to understand the other side rather than assume that they are "evil" or "stupid".

I would love to continue this discussion another time without derailing the thread -- I like where you're at, but I still don't buy some of the "10-12%" numbers (weightlifting is at least 30%) or the dismissive comment that there is "no study that actually proves an advantage".  I believe there are certain sports where the advantage is negligible, but there are others (basketball, volleyball, high jump, etc) where it doesn't require a scientific study to see the advantage of having passed through male puberty.  The difficulty is that it is really hard for us to come up with hard and fast rules that address the problem in the best and most equitable way -- the lazy solution is what we get most of the time.

~Sara

[Lady Sarah]

In practically all sports that measure some dimension to determine a winner, whether the measured dimension was time (over a certain distance, like in running, swimming, speed skating, cross country skiing, etc), distance (track & field jumping and throwing disciplines) or weight (weightlifting), there is a very constant performance gap of 10-12% between men and women. The primary and only proven cause of this performance gap is testosterone, because it leads to an increased muscle mass and also to a higher count of red blood cells for people with testosterone levels in the male range.

Studies have shown that removing testosterone during HRT for transfeminine athletes who were assigned male at birth also leads to a performance drop in the aforementioned 10-12%, usually within 4-6 months of starting HRT. That is why the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete in the female category as long as their testosterone levels are below 10nmol/L, which some governing bodies for specific sports have further lowered to 5nmol/L (144ng/dL in US units). The average female T-levels are between .5 and 2.5 nmol/L (or 15-70ng/dL).

Some folks argue that other testosterone caused changes during puberty, such as increased body height or larger ribcage give trans women an advantage over cis women and these changes cannot be undone by HRT. As far as I know there is no study that actually proves such an advantage. I have also heard equally scientifically unsubstantiated arguments that trans women have a heavier skeleton than cis women, which was built to be operated by a male musculature, but after HRT reduced the muscle mass to female levels, operating a heavier skeleton is actually a disadvantage. Again, none of this has been scientifically proven and my personal feeling is that the mentioned advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out.

When it comes to trans kids who take puberty blockers and never had higher testosterone levels, there is absolutely no advantage a trans female youth athlete would have over their cis peers at all. That is why the current anti trans legislations in school sports in several states are particularly cruel.

Now, when it comes to judged sports, such as figure skating, gymnastics, half pipe, diving, etc, I don't know if trans athletes have any advantage, although I have to note that at least in figure skating the more complex jumps have always been shown first by men and later by women. I am not sure if this is caused by male muscle mass or because men are more willing to take risk.

OK. I was AMAB. That did nothing as far as making me competitive in any sports. Until I was 15, I had the same height, weight, and nearly the same build as the girls. I say that, because only then did I actually hit a growth spurt, making me as tall as the boys.

So, you cannot lump everyone into the same basket. We are not all the same. Everyone's mileage varies. When it came to phys Ed in school, the only students I could compete against were the girls. I was on their level. Even the teachers knew it. When forced to compete against the boys, I was a total failure.

[Ellie_Jean]

OK. I was AMAB. That did nothing as far as making me competitive in any sports. Until I was 15, I had the same height, weight, and nearly the same build as the girls. I say that, because only then did I actually hit a growth spurt, making me as tall as the boys.

So, you cannot lump everyone into the same basket. We are not all the same. Everyone's mileage varies. When it came to phys Ed in school, the only students I could compete against were the girls. I was on their level. Even the teachers knew it. When forced to compete against the boys, I was a total failure.

Same here. I was the typical nerdy/autistic bookworm hiding in the Library during PE lol. Prominent member of the Chess Club. Always made the Honor Role. I was a walking cliche; constantly bullied lol. I tried joining the wrestling team to make my psycho dad proud, but at the tournament he hung his head and walked out with a disgusted look on his face when I got my butt whooped by a girl. (Apparently gender doesn't matter in wrestling either; she turned me into a pretzel lol. It was a low point in my life lol.) 😅

[Iztaccihuatl]

Thanks Iztaccihuatl for your reasoned argument.  I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, though... my only point was that many of the issues we tend to demonize others over are not quite as "open and shut" as we might like them to be.  It's always best to try to understand the other side rather than assume that they are "evil" or "stupid".

I would love to continue this discussion another time without derailing the thread -- I like where you're at, but I still don't buy some of the "10-12%" numbers (weightlifting is at least 30%) or the dismissive comment that there is "no study that actually proves an advantage".  I believe there are certain sports where the advantage is negligible, but there are others (basketball, volleyball, high jump, etc) where it doesn't require a scientific study to see the advantage of having passed through male puberty.  The difficulty is that it is really hard for us to come up with hard and fast rules that address the problem in the best and most equitable way -- the lazy solution is what we get most of the time.

~Sara

Thanks, Sara. I agree, we shouldn't further sidetrack this thread, but if you want to discuss the topic of transgender inclusion in sports (one of my soapbox topics), let's open a separate thread.

[BritneyX]

I posted a previous topic on this.  People in the LGBT are way to quick to label people as bigots are haters because they disagree with what you believe.  Dissenters are not “haters” people who don’t go with the flow are not bigots.  It’s just a different opinion.  I just see things different.

Agreed.  I find that they do so for political reasons. Not everything has to be about stinking politics.  People like that tend to see things through a single lens...their lens.  They expect everyone else to comply.  Life ain't so black and white.  There is a lot of shades fo grey in between.  If you expect other people to be open-minded and accept you, then you have to return the same in kind.  It is a two-way street.

[mako9802]

I see a lot of "You are not valid" type of comments directed at trans people.  Be it their opinion or not, that qualifies as hate speech IMO.  Marginalizing groups of people is the aim.

Some trans people try to invalidate others because they get this air of superiority.  “I’m one of the good ones”. Oh this is how you are supposed to be doing it”. I’m like let peope do what they need to do.  Let them figure out who they are.  Don’t tell them what they are our try to make them what you want them to be.  Just let them be.  If you see a non-binary person who current presentation you may not like or agree with just sit back and relax and don’t be pushy towards them.  Maybe Androgyne is a pit-stop or whatever they are at the moment.  I have been bullied by binary transwoman in my area.   Here why I’m not a femme,  I didn’t totally hate my male side.  By I’m way more comfortable being androgynous to feminine looking than I am being totally male.  I not totally male or totally female.  I’m “in the middle”. All they did is push me away and make me uncomfortable.

[Skyenet]

'lgtb issues' are pretty heavy because we are talking about bigotry and which people deserve to exist and have rights, trans people are wary and it's not really our fault, it's a survival mechanism.
That being said I read your previous post and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE  can tell you who you are! <3
Best wishes, hoping you find the support you need!
-skye

[Ms. Grey]

Historically there has always been infighting amongst queer people.
Lesbians argue about what makes a true lesbian.
Gay men disagree about what qualities constitute being gay.
Some trans people believe in the idea of 'true trans'.
And everyone dislikes latecomers in all the aforementioned identities.
On the sports issue...
Name one trans athlete that is winning every time they compete and running away with all the medals.
There is no one that comes to my mind.
Also, percentages taken into account, how many trans athletes are there really?
I invite those who are interested to look up Caster Semenya as I am certain her story will have you questioning your position on this issue of who should be allowed to compete.

[MistressStevie]

The art of "agreeing to disagree" is dying away.   Not that long ago finding like minded
people could be a bit of challenge independent of flavor.   The internet has given us an
amazing ability to find an echo-chamber for nearly any flavor and predilection.   Thus
when we are always preaching to the choir the idea that there are other experiences is
all to quickly drowned out.   

I still remember how eye opening it was to me to actually catch on to the value of
"win-win or no deal" from Covey's 7 habits.  There may be an immature assumption
in part of our basic character that if we classify something as hate worthy then we no
longer need to find a way to a viable deal.  Enlightenment is trying to understand first.
Then we can go forward politely on the wide variety of things we most likely agree upon.

That is my intelligent response. 

The one that probably makes a clearer example would be referencing one or more of the
comedy sketches by George Carlin talking about how the powerful like to keep us focused
on differences so we do not catch on to what is going on at the top.  He changed the
wordings over his career.   I do not know that there is the vast conspiracy he pointed out,
but he did catch on to our capacity to obsess about differences rather than similarities. 

[Sephirah]

The art of "agreeing to disagree" is dying away.   Not that long ago finding like minded
people could be a bit of challenge independent of flavor.   The internet has given us an
amazing ability to find an echo-chamber for nearly any flavor and predilection.   Thus
when we are always preaching to the choir the idea that there are other experiences is
all to quickly drowned out.   

This is actually a really good point. And I would go further by saying that the internet has made it exceedingly easy to hate with no consequences. When you don't have to look someone in the eye, it's easy for some people to spew all the bile in their hearts with reckless abandon, hiding behind a screen as they do so. This can, for some, be habit forming. And the only way they know how to live.

Finding groups who share the things they want to hate on only serves to create venomous bubbles of people, content to live within them. Differing opinions are seen as something very different these days. People sometimes take them as an affront to their very way of being. And the world we live in makes that rather easy to do.

I sometimes think that the online space has done for how people express themselves what trying to overprotect children has done for how they grow up. Sometimes you need to be exposed to things in order to become accustomed to them. There's nothing wrong with a few cuts and scrapes here and there. It's how you stop being allergic to stuff later on in life.

[Iztaccihuatl]

This is actually a really good point. And I would go further by saying that the internet has made it exceedingly easy to hate with no consequences. When you don't have to look someone in the eye, it's easy for some people to spew all the bile in their hearts with reckless abandon, hiding behind a screen as they do so. This can, for some, be habit forming. And the only way they know how to live.

Finding groups who share the things they want to hate on only serves to create venomous bubbles of people, content to live within them. Differing opinions are seen as something very different these days. People sometimes take them as an affront to their very way of being. And the world we live in makes that rather easy to do.

I sometimes think that the online space has done for how people express themselves what trying to overprotect children has done for how they grow up. Sometimes you need to be exposed to things in order to become accustomed to them. There's nothing wrong with a few cuts and scrapes here and there. It's how you stop being allergic to stuff later on in life.

And all that is currently paired up with a political environment where the 'my way or the highway' approach rules, compromises are considered a weakness and exposure to new ideas or different experiences is fought against like it was the bubonic plague.

[MistressStevie]

And all that is currently paired up with a political environment where the 'my way or the highway' approach rules

This is the antithesis of the win-win or no deal.  It becomes a "For me or my party to win we must punish you so
that you lose."  It is what makes political conversations challenging.   It is the punishing part of that where I take
the most affront.   Either often or sooner than expected alliances change and evolve and we must soon break
bread with the enemy from yesterday.  It can be attributed to Tsun Tsu's Art of War, but often we neglect ensuring
an enemy has a path of retreat so they are not fighting to the death.