Author Topic: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect  (Read 6133 times)

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JonasCarminis

<not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« on: October 18, 2009, 03:40:56 am »
i posted this in a "gay Muslim" group on facebook that was meant for the discussion of homosexuality in Islam.  its just my thoughts, opinions, and what ive heard.

hey everyone, i am not a Muslim, but i am contemplating converting and would like to discus a few things.

if you disagree with me(i know it can be a touchy subject), dont just "yell" about how i am wrong, please DISCUSS your points.

in science, i believe that there is enough evidence to prove (to me) that there is a biological reason for homosexuals to be attracted to the same sex and for <not allowed> people or transsexuals to feel like their gender identity doesn't match their birth sex.

studies done on MTF transsexuals have shown that their brain was physiologically similar to a genetic female brain. you can not change how your brain develops physically (without trauma or surgical interference of course) there are currently 2 theories about why a transsexual or <not allowed> person are trans. (i am going to use a MTF transsexual as an example) one is that the fetus was meant to be a girl, but the wrong surge of hormones influenced the development and masculinized the body, but not the brain. the other is that the fetus was meant to be a boy, but the wrong surge of hormones affected the brain and feminized it.

there is currently a theory about a "gay gene" which could cause people to be pre-disposed to homosexuality. there is also a similar theory, to the transsexual ones, that hormones effected the part of the brain that has to do with attraction. another is that the mothers body sees the (male) fetus as a foreign object because he differs from her biologically, and the immune system reacts and tries to make the baby similar to the mother and somewhat feminizes him.

in any of these theories, they would still fall under "birth defect" or genetic condition. (quotes because in some peoples eyes, it is not a defect, but a difference)

Birth defects and genetic conditions occur naturally, such as a cleft lip, webbed fingers, or sickle cell disease. they are not the choice of the baby or the parents, but they would be acceptable to Islam.

Monique Martinez

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 04:55:59 am »
The possible problem with labelling it on genetics is that some people (haters) could say.. Well now that we know this we can let (encourage) people to abort fetus' that show signs of 'deformity'. It may not happen in our life time but it could still happen. On the other hand it does make sense and it would be nice to have an answer, well you know just the 'one' answer! :P
S.x

Offline Silver

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Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 05:16:50 am »
The possible problem with labelling it on genetics is that some people (haters) could say.. Well now that we know this we can let (encourage) people to abort fetus' that show signs of 'deformity'. It may not happen in our life time but it could still happen. On the other hand it does make sense and it would be nice to have an answer, well you know just the 'one' answer! :P
S.x

Ever see GATTACA? Reminds me so much of that movie.

JonasCarminis

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 09:35:51 am »
The possible problem with labelling it on genetics is that some people (haters) could say.. Well now that we know this we can let (encourage) people to abort fetus' that show signs of 'deformity'. It may not happen in our life time but it could still happen. On the other hand it does make sense and it would be nice to have an answer, well you know just the 'one' answer! :P
S.x
being able to identify gayness or <not allowed> before birth is a possibility, and aborting the fetuses would suck a lot. :/  im not sure what the Qur'an says about abortion, but genetic or hormonal abnormalities are acceptable in islam, so there wouldnt be a religious reason for abortion if/when they find out how to identify gays/trans people before birth.

Offline Deanna_Renee

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Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 10:46:10 am »
But is homosexuality and <not allowed> accepted forms of identity in Islam? I have heard that homosexuality at least is against the law in some Muslim dominant countries. Is this just local law or Islamic law? You have me curious now. I don't practice any particular religion for various reasons, but it would be interesting to find out.

Deanna

Offline Julie Marie

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Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 11:17:14 am »
If you define "normal" as something that occurs most frequently then you have to allow for variations from normality.  But in our society we think of normality as what is correct and everything else is wrong (defective) and needs to be corrected.

In nature there are countless variations from the norm but that doesn't mean defects.  Real normality is there are no two things on this earth exactly alike.  Everything is unique.  And we, as humans, are all unique.  Even identical twins are not exactly alike.

So it goes to reason that using the term "defect" and applying it to anything that varies from the norm is denying nature itself.  We can use the term "defective" in things we make but not when referring to nature's creations.

Julie
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 12:37:45 pm by Julie Marie »
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Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 11:22:49 am »
I agree with Julie, looking at it as a defect is not natural! lol But a lot or most gay/trans people I know personally seem to just be "wired that way". That applies to me anyway, I can't remember a time in my life when I didn't feel like I should have been born female.
Girls rule, boys drool.
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Offline Silver

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Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 03:10:01 pm »
If you define "normal" as something that occurs most frequently then you have to allow for variations from normality.  But in our society we think of normality as what is correct and everything else is wrong (defective) and needs to be corrected.

In nature there are countless variations from the norm but that doesn't mean defects.  Real normality is there are no two things on this earth exactly alike.  Everything is unique.  And we, as humans, are all unique.  Even identical twins are not exactly alike.

So it goes to reason that using the term "defect" and applying it to anything that varies from the norm is denying nature itself.  We can use the term "defective" in things we make but not when referring to nature's creations.

Julie


Well what about those who believe the evolution theory? What if you had a deer with one short leg, so it couldn't run well and limped. It could have ended up like all the other deer, but it didn't. So since it's slow it gets eaten. Maybe the leg was a natural variation, but it was a disadvantage and deer are certainly better off with symmetrical leg length.

That's what they think of homosexuality, but homosexuality is not an impairment. (Unless your goal is children. But there's major world overpopulation.) Transsexuality requires lengthy (and possibly expensive) transition, but I don't think that means we should be removed. Lots of diseases require treatment, and we don't just kill all of those people off.

JonasCarminis

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 07:09:33 pm »
Deanna: the only mention of anything resembling transsexuals in the Qur'an is a verse (not sure of the real term for it) about women not revealing themselves except to her husband, her husbands father, her brothers... etc, then it mentions men "with no vigor" at their right hand.  this implies something similar to a castrated "man" or a womanly "man".  (it mentions nothing of the persons identity)  im not as well versed about homosexuality in the Qur'an.  i hope to learn more on that.

a lot of the laws in Muslim dominant countries are based on culture, not the Qur'an.  in Islam, the final word is the Qur'an because it was revealed by, and is the word of Allah.  a lot of Muslims are against homosexuality and <not allowed> because of what is written in the Hadiths (acounts written about the prophets).  There is pretty much a general consensus (:P)among Muslims that humans are flawed and that the word of Allah trumps all.

If you define "normal" as something that occurs most frequently then you have to allow for variations from normality.  But in our society we think of normality as what is correct and everything else is wrong (defective) and needs to be corrected.

In nature there are countless variations from the norm but that doesn't mean defects.  Real normality is there are no two things on this earth exactly alike.  Everything is unique.  And we, as humans, are all unique.  Even identical twins are not exactly alike.

So it goes to reason that using the term "defect" and applying it to anything that varies from the norm is denying nature itself.  We can use the term "defective" in things we make but not when referring to nature's creations.

Julie

  Islam embraces cultural, racial, ethnic, and physical differences.

Bellaon7

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 09:13:14 pm »
I've very little understanding of Islam & what is available at the library appears to be a "filtered veiw from outside". This board does not seem to have much actitvity & I hope that this is a place where Muslims can feel at ease & address our issues in terms that they are allowed to do so without fear of reprisal. I suspect that LGBT issues are not issues that Muslims are at ease to address in their homes or their Mosques. I believe they are welcome here already, but may require reassurence of that.

Monique Martinez

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 10:06:03 pm »
Julie: Try telling that to fundamentalists!! :P
S.x

Dryad

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 10:00:07 am »
Actually, the homophobia in both Christianity and Islam stem from the book Leviticus, in the Bible. Leviticus contains a lot of laws that would normally go directly against Christian and Muslim teachings, and a lot of the rules haven't survived, for obvious reasons. I'd say: Read Leviticus, and shiver in fear for what fundies might come up with...

Offline kyril

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Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 11:06:19 am »
That's what they think of homosexuality, but homosexuality is not an impairment. (Unless your goal is children. But there's major world overpopulation.) Transsexuality requires lengthy (and possibly expensive) transition, but I don't think that means we should be removed. Lots of diseases require treatment, and we don't just kill all of those people off.
Truth is homosexuality does not stop humans from having children. Lesbians rarely had a choice in the matter (and now that they do, they're still reproducing using donated sperm). And most gay men are entirely capable of sleeping with women and have done so throughout history to meet societal expectations. And many continue to do so today by choice - not just the ones in the closet, but the out gay guys who date and sleep with their best girl friends, and sometimes even marry them and have children, all the while identifying as gay. Like all of human sexuality, homosexuality is messy and complicated.



accord03

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 06:40:40 pm »
Homosexuality is a no no in Islam but transexuality is. Iran (Other Islamic countries too - It is LAW) pays half of the medical needs for trans and it is the 2nd biggest in tran surgical procedures after Thailand.



Josh - Are you going to marry a muslim woman?

mimpi

Re: <not allowed> and Homosexualism as a Birth Defect
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 11:06:35 am »
But is homosexuality and <not allowed> accepted forms of identity in Islam? I have heard that homosexuality at least is against the law in some Muslim dominant countries. Is this just local law or Islamic law? You have me curious now. I don't practice any particular religion for various reasons, but it would be interesting to find out.

Deanna

Good question regarding the law. It depends on the country. In countries with Sharia law (there's a whole discussion to be had there as regards Sharia being a man made law etc) such as KSA and Iran homosexuality is illegal. In others it is illegal because it was illegal under the colonial legal system and has remained so, this is true for Muslim majority and non Muslim countries: Gambia which is Muslim and Jamaica which is not are good examples. Then there are countries where it is legal in some parts and not others: Indonesia, legal everywhere in theory apart from Aceh Province. Then there's Malaysia where I think it's illegal only for Muslims. I've met Gay and Lesbian Muslims from many countries and despite the law things are still frowned upon in practice. I'm not here to justify things either way but to the best of my knowledge the Quran condemns anal sex, rape and adultery. The story of Lut (Lot?) is often quoted to put forward the idea that this is not specifically anti Gay. Myself, I just trust in His forgiveness and believe things will be taken in perspective, insha'Allah.

Transexuality is not mentioned either in the Quran and I can't say I necessarily agree with the Iranian perpective on things as it merely reinforces binary gender thinking. Better than nothing however I suppose. As someone in the middle can't say I would take kindly to enforced srs or being forced to cover my hair in public!

Hope that answers your question to a certain degree :)

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