A trend I have been seeing in the "Do I pass" thread

[Naturally Blonde]

May I please interject a friendly reminder that this is a support site and different people need support in different ways.  Just because one person has no problem working from the inside out doesn't mean that everybody can do it, and passing threads are a starting point to building the outer confidence they need to start working on issues within.  The beauty of life is the breathtaking variation of the human condition, and calling people shallow or directly attacking the type of support they need is only going to hurt them, and it will hurt us all in the long run when they leave the site and can't bring their valuable perspectives to the discussion.

Do you really want to be in the echo chamber?  Because I assure you it's deafening.

Please lighten up a bit and don't forget that we're talking about people who need support.  We all need it from time to time, we need it in differing amounts, and how would you feel if you got shut down and insulted in your own time of need?

I agree with you, but at the same time we shouldn't just be politically correct which doesn't always help the individual who's going out in the big wide world who may need advise or support. When I first started transitioning my friend ripped me to pieces with her comments and it really hurt but it was good for me and she helped point out all the things that needed improvement.

[jamie nicole]

maybe the "do i pass" thread needs to renamed to the "how do i look" thread because surely "passing" is not limited to just facial appearance.  Someone could be the most beautiful woman in the world....but walk like John Wayne..what then? Or, have a voice like Lemmy from Motorhead?  just a thought

[Muffins]

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that if such a question was asked, it's probably a good idea that maybe the particular outfit need not be worn?  From what I've seen, the biggest problem that some have with passing is what they wear.  Being female does not automatically mean we wear miniskirts, spaghetti tops, heels and tons of makeup.  when it comes to dressing, we gotta compliment and work with what we have.

yeah I totally agree.. but sometimes one may have doubts and feel an outside opinion is required. Does my bum look big in this? YES! *takes it off and wears something more flattering*.

[tekla]

Does my bum look big in this?

It's really unfair to blame the clothes for this problem.

[Just Shelly]

It matters if you pass!!!! if you say it doesn't then thats BS.

It may not bother some (as much) because maybe their fortunate to not be misgendered much, but see what would happen if they were sirr'ed consistently. I feel many MTF's may bring this on themselves by rushing full time, I cannot imagine going full time without at least 80% hair (face) removal, but I have talked with some that say no one really notices the whiskers they are growing out before electro. Why! because no one said any thing (not going to happen!) and trans on a forum said they didn't notice. I am at that 80% hair removal, I still feel it hinders me. Thats me though!

The difference between a trans and a cis person is a trans is thinking do I pass as a female/male. It may not bother them much and sure and hell isn't stopping there transition, but in the back of there head, its always there.

A cis person never questions if they pass as there gender, they might wonder if they look good but never is there a thought hmmmmmmmmmm.......do I look like a natural male or for the MTF do I look like a natural female.

Think about this! If passing didn't matter to some of you why not just get grs and don't worry about how your dressed or facial hair or............

For me it matters that I want that thing between my legs GONE! in reality though no one knows its there. I want to live my life as it was meant to be, that is female. To do this I will have grs in the mean time I want to assimilate, present, show, pass or what ever term one may use female as best I can.

Shelly

[Padma]

Think about this! If passing didn't matter to some of you why not just get grs and don't worry about how your dressed or facial hair or............

An obvious answer to this is that for almost everyone, the guidelines require RLE before surgery, so some kind of visible move in the direction of the "target gender" is required by the medical establishment before they're willing to okay SRS/GRS. So even someone like myself with little interest in passing per se knows that there may be some things we have to do to get there, like those things that you have to do to pass a driving test that you then never do again in normal day-to-day driving .

I think it's important to accept that for some people it doesn't feel that important, and for some it feels very, very important, and both those experiences are valid.

[Rock_chick]

A cis person never questions if they pass as there gender, they might wonder if they look good but never is there a thought hmmmmmmmmmm.......do I look like a natural male or for the MTF do I look like a natural female.

The thing is, neither should you, peoples perception of you is really based on your perception of yourself...question your gender and others will follow you.

Finally as I don't question my gender I guess that makes me a cis female, so I'll bid you all fond farewell and I wish that everyone who questions themselves could find at least a bit of my surety in myself, because it really is that simple, but unfortunately I can't teach anyone that, it's an understanding you have to reach on your own.

I really didn't mean to come across as patronising, but trust me, when I tell you it is just as simple as letting go of the fear...while at the same time being utterly terryfing to do. I had to bounce off the road at 30mph to get here, hopefully y'all find slightly less uncomfortable ways of doing it.

[jamie nicole]

It matters if you pass!!!! if you say it doesn't then thats BS.

It may not bother some (as much) because maybe their fortunate to not be misgendered much, but see what would happen if they were sirr'ed consistently. I feel many MTF's may bring this on themselves by rushing full time, I cannot imagine going full time without at least 80% hair (face) removal, but I have talked with some that say no one really notices the whiskers they are growing out before electro. Why! because no one said any thing (not going to happen!) and trans on a forum said they didn't notice. I am at that 80% hair removal, I still feel it hinders me. Thats me though!

The difference between a trans and a cis person is a trans is thinking do I pass as a female/male. It may not bother them much and sure and hell isn't stopping there transition, but in the back of there head, its always there.

A cis person never questions if they pass as there gender, they might wonder if they look good but never is there a thought hmmmmmmmmmm.......do I look like a natural male or for the MTF do I look like a natural female.

Think about this! If passing didn't matter to some of you why not just get grs and don't worry about how your dressed or facial hair or............

For me it matters that I want that thing between my legs GONE! in reality though no one knows its there. I want to live my life as it was meant to be, that is female. To do this I will have grs in the mean time I want to assimilate, present, show, pass or what ever term one may use female as best I can.

Shelly

that's not entirely true......the thought of wondering if I pass or not is never in the back of my head.  I've been living full time for 4 years.  In fact, I transitioned when my son was 9 years old.  He is very active in youth activities, plays baseball and football, has many friends of which all knew me before as well as the parents of his friends and I'm still friends with all the parents and still socialize on the sidelines during games and practices.  The only thing that mattered to me was my ex and the thought she'd drag me to court and I'd never see my son again.  However, I am very fortunate as my ex already knew I was trans before I told her and is very supportive.  When it comes to dressing and appearance, I dress and do what I do for me, nobody else.  I make absolutely no secrets about who I am or who I used to be.

[Just Shelly]

An obvious answer to this is that for almost everyone, the guidelines require RLE before surgery, so some kind of visible move in the direction of the "target gender" is required by the medical establishment before they're willing to okay SRS/GRS. So even someone like myself with little interest in passing per se knows that there may be some things we have to do to get there, like those things that you have to do to pass a driving test that you then never do again in normal day-to-day driving .

I think it's important to accept that for some people it doesn't feel that important, and for some it feels very, very important, and both those experiences are valid.

Yes, thats why I put for some of you.

I never said I don't accept that for some passing doesn't matter.

I cannot relate with how you feel at all! I have no understanding of how you feel and I'm sure its the same for you about me.

I do want this thing gone, but I also enjoy being me physically, mentally, socially, verbaly ME, this is as big a part as grs. In saying this though I do not feel I could stay non op for more then a couple of years.

Padma, thank you for your insight even though its like asking a cat how a dog feels. Me-ow don't know

Shelly

[jamie nicole]

The thing is, neither should you, peoples perception of you is really based on your perception of yourself...question your gender and others will follow you.

Finally as I don't question my gender I guess that makes me a cis female, so I'll bid you all fond farewell and I wish that everyone who questions themselves could find at least a bit of my surety in myself, because it really is that simple, but unfortunately I can't teach anyone that, it's an understanding you have to reach on your own.

I really didn't mean to come across as patronising, but trust me, when I tell you it is just as simple as letting go of the fear...while at the same time being utterly terryfing to do. I had to bounce off the road at 30mph to get here, hopefully y'all find slightly less uncomfortable ways of doing it.

that is the 100% truth!!!  If you want others to accept you for who you are, you have to first accept yourself for who you are.  If you are 100% comfortable and confident in your own skin, then others will be as well.  and, in reality, that's all it boils down to.

[Just Shelly]

The thing is, neither should you, peoples perception of you is really based on your perception of yourself...question your gender and others will follow you.

Finally as I don't question my gender I guess that makes me a cis female, so I'll bid you all fond farewell and I wish that everyone who questions themselves could find at least a bit of my surety in myself, because it really is that simple, but unfortunately I can't teach anyone that, it's an understanding you have to reach on your own.

I really didn't mean to come across as patronising, but trust me, when I tell you it is just as simple as letting go of the fear...while at the same time being utterly terryfing to do. I had to bounce off the road at 30mph to get here, hopefully y'all find slightly less uncomfortable ways of doing it.

Very good for you! I sincerely mean that.

Maybe one day I will get that far, for me I feel I will need grs, I am more binary and when I see that thing, I can't help but think I don't see to many cis woman with one. I have read about some other trans that have felt "cured" and even contemplated putting off grs. I never completely believed them, but in what you say and in how I am feeling more and more comfortable in my skin I am becoming a believer. (somewhat)! 

I don't question my gender on a minute by minute basis, there are times when I do but they are become fewer and fewer. I do still feel others are! maybe because I am not 100% secure with me. I hope that is the case and I feel I am getting to that point.

Good luck wishes with your travels in life. 

Shelly

[Annah]

All of you have provided and contributed wonderfully to this thread. I really did enjoy reading all of the wonderful viewpoints here!

For me, the word "passing" or "blending in" is def a very sensitive subject. I have seen very many different viewpoints on the subject from one end of the spectrum (you are not a girl unless you pass) to the other end of the spectrum (i have a beard post srs because gender doesn't define how I look) and then everything in between.

The bottom line I had learned in this process is that the topic of sexuality and gender is different for everyone. What may be an appropriate definition for one may not be the appropriate definition for another. The same is def true on how we present ourselves.

For me, I find passing to be an important thing in my life. While I do have a very strong sense of self confidence and self esteem along with self respect, I also have a strong desire to not only look feminine but to have my body (as best as it can) to emulate how I feel on the inside.

Also, being a Church Pastor and Professor, my desire to have my physical look to emulate my inner look is very important to me. It transcends just the realm of how I feel about myself but also how my future students and congregants will emulate around me.

In a perfect world and a perfect society (even the word "perfect society" is subjective depending on the person), the issue of passing and blending may not be as important of a subject as it is right now. If everyone on this planet could accept another regardless of gender orientation, then the importance of having to pass or blend in would not be as important (although the notion of projection of your inner self image to your outer self image will always be there).

However, this world still belittles, harass, taunt, bully and kill those who have a different view of gender identity so the issue of "passing" and "blending in" still remains and will remain until, at which time, the world can better understand us.

[jamie nicole]

All of you have provided and contributed wonderfully to this thread. I really did enjoy reading all of the wonderful viewpoints here!

For me, the word "passing" or "blending in" is def a very sensitive subject. I have seen very many different viewpoints on the subject from one end of the spectrum (you are not a girl unless you pass) to the other end of the spectrum (i have a beard post srs because gender doesn't define how I look) and then everything in between.

The bottom line I had learned in this process is that the topic of sexuality and gender is different for everyone. What may be an appropriate definition for one may not be the appropriate definition for another. The same is def true on how we present ourselves.

For me, I find passing to be an important thing in my life. While I do have a very strong sense of self confidence and self esteem along with self respect, I also have a strong desire to not only look feminine but to have my body (as best as it can) to emulate how I feel on the inside.

Also, being a Church Pastor and Professor, my desire to have my physical look to emulate my inner look is very important to me. It transcends just the realm of how I feel about myself but also how my future students and congregants will emulate around me.

In a perfect world and a perfect society (even the word "perfect society" is subjective depending on the person), the issue of passing and blending may not be as important of a subject as it is right now. If everyone on this planet could accept another regardless of gender orientation, then the importance of having to pass or blend in would not be as important (although the notion of projection of your inner self image to your outer self image will always be there).

However, this world still belittles, harass, taunt, bully and kill those who have a different view of gender identity so the issue of "passing" and "blending in" still remains and will remain until, at which time, the world can better understand us.

very good! in order for the world to better understand us, we must first educate the world 

[JulyaOrina]

very good! in order for the world to better understand us, we must first educate the world 

...And, for the world to accept us, we need to blend into the world to dispel the extreme image that is portrayed and held by those unfamiliar with us.

[Padma]

Yes, thats why I put for some of you.

I never said I don't accept that for some passing doesn't matter.

I cannot relate with how you feel at all! I have no understanding of how you feel and I'm sure its the same for you about me.

I do want this thing gone, but I also enjoy being me physically, mentally, socially, verbaly ME, this is as big a part as grs. In saying this though I do not feel I could stay non op for more then a couple of years.

Padma, thank you for your insight even though its like asking a cat how a dog feels. Me-ow don't know

Shelly

I wasn't directing what I wrote at you in particular, just pointing out (again) that it's okay for a bunch of trans folk from all over the planet to not all feel exactly the same way about this, without feeling threatened by each other.

And you and I, we're not that different . It's just that there are millions of different kinds of woman to be, and the kind I am is very female, but not very feminine (according to most people's scale of "visible" femininity, anyway). I want very much for my body to reflect my gender, but that's about anatomy, it's where my homesickness lies. I just want to pass as me. The women I've always felt most kinship with have generally turned out to be bi or gay, and are also more ambiguous in their gender characteristics. So ourselves may be rather different, but you and I both want to be ourselves .

[Sean]

I prefer the terms "being read correctly" or "being read as...." to "passing." Your presentation is your gender expression, not your gender. Being read is how other people are perceiving you. You can make presentation choices that influence how you will be read, but there are some aspects of presentation that we can not choose (e.g., your height). It would be more accurate to ask, "How would you read me?" or "How do you think others will read me?" rather than "Do I pass?"

Otherwise, forgive me for intruding further into the MTF thread on this, but as an FTM, a lot of the comments here that "it's really just about how you see yourself" or "who cares how you are read" strike me as what some people call, "passing privilege" - people taking for granted being read correctly, because they typically are & not having empathy for those who do not (and care about it). If you routinely are perceived as you would like and are not misgendered - even if this was not always the case for you, then please consider that your perspective on how other people should act and whether they should care about how they are read is influenced by your own privilege.

It is human nature that leads us to take more credit for the things we have control over than the things we do not, and we then try to attribute our "success" to things we have done and our failures to bad chance or luck or other people's actions. (And we do the opposite for other people).  Yes, inner confidence is important and how you feel about your own identity does affect how people perceive you. Being insecure or anxious or unsure about whether you are sufficiently male/female seeming can cripple efforts to be read as you wish. However, it is only human nature that people who are read correctly come to believe that it is the things they have done (or are doing) that allow this to happen for them, and they tend to discount the natal advantages they have had. Likewise, they can be unsympathetic to the natal disadvantages others have, and believe that other people could get what they wanted if only they tried harder or had a better attitude. Please try to be empathetic to others who may not share your privilege, and please do not 'blame' their attitude or confidence for how other people perceive them.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora Annah,

Interesting topic BTW.......................

Slightly off topic but not by much....Do I pass[blend in] or am I just "acceptable" ?

Sadly it's a fact there are some trans-people who will always be identified as trans, no matter what surgeries or amount of HRT they might have to correct their birth sex characteristics...

No doubt there are some who live in an environment/community where the majority of cisgender people are pretty laidback and "accepting" of diversity....So even though they don't "blend in" in a physical sense,  their somewhat androgynous appearance[dress sense, long hair make-up, etc ] is "accepted" and they are given the honouree status of "female" within that particular cisgender community...Outside this community well that could be another story...

However, even though we like to "believe" we do....I believe no one "passes" 100% all of the time...and in a lot of cases because we don't "greatly" challenge society's concept of gender, we are given the "benefit of the doubt"...

If a cisgender person pays attention to detail "anatomy" they will notice the tale, tale signs of the former birth sex of some, for example, a combination of the following = Height, hands & feet size, arm lengths, shoulder width, etc...There are a number of things that subconsciously a cisgender person will pick up on and if these things aren't poking too much outside their socially constructed "gender identity box" they will be dismissed, hence given the "benefit of the doubt"...

Oooopsss sorry for being slightly off topic.....   

Metta Zenda

[Cowboi]

I wasn't directing what I wrote at you in particular, just pointing out (again) that it's okay for a bunch of trans folk from all over the planet to not all feel exactly the same way about this, without feeling threatened by each other.

Wait we are allowed to not ALL feel the same way? I am outraged by this accusation

[Cowboi]

Gravities-Child enquired about a tracheal shave. She doesn't have a big apple but it is just about there. His response was "You don't need one. Only trans people ever use that as a marker for gender. Very few other people will even notice it."

How does he know? For real, I mean just because he is a surgeon doesn't mean he's right about what people notice and what they don't notice. The only thing that my wife used to get pegged on (when she was on hormones) were her hands and her adams apple. Even on many occasions/days where I knew she felt perfectly happy with how she looked and even I thought she was doing great and seemed all bubbly and thrilled about herself and her femininity.

I cannot tell you the number of times people meet my wife and weeks later it comes up that she happens to be trans (typically because the people I'm talking with know I am trans so it's natural for them to find out about her too), first thing out of their mouths are comments like, "Well I thought something was off... she's so pretty, but (and now insert 'her hands' or 'her adams apple')"

I'm not intending to personally attack or anything, just the first thing I thought when I read that particular line was annoyance with one of those challenging "Say it to my face" moments lol.

[azSam]

This thread has gotten a bit off topic. This was a discussion about being truthful in the "do I pass" thread. Somehow this got evolved to a debate on whether passing is necessary and how to pass.

Whether or not someone wants to "pass" is their business.
Whether or not someone wants to post pictures and get feedback is their business.
No one should really judge a person if what they care about is "passing".

Yes they're posting on a public forum, if you don't approve of the idea of "passing" then it's simply better to not get involved on the topic. If you feel someone is wrong for wanting to pass, then you should keep it to yourself, because that's their own business.

Can we get back on topic now?