From Whence Comes the Transgender Community?

[justmeinoz]

Actually I sometimes refer to myself as Transgendered rather than Transsexual at first, when trying to explain this to someone who is seriously interested, but knows little of the subject.

I get the feeling that to a lot of people Transsexual causes them to think of Jerry Springer type situations, but if I say Transgender it sounds a lot more "medical".  Later I will explain that I am specifically Transsexual, and how this differs from Crossdressing, Transgendered, and Intersex. 

Karen.

[Tammy Hope]

History demonstrates that when people are divided, they crumble and fall.

a distinction need not be a division - i ask again, are we divided from homosexuals because they are L or G and we are T? Noting a distinction in no way requires that a division occur. that's not to say that there are not some transsexuals who want to fade into the landscape and not be "T" at all - but they will no more be with you if there is no semantic distinction than if there is - those are not the people who choose to fight.

on the basis that their aims are somehow more pure, more truthful, more coragious. Let's cut to the chase here. Superior.

Again - how about "different"? different does not in any way imply superior. I'll agree there are particular points in which I think the TS claim is more "pure" - for instance, on the front of marriage equality: since the crossdresser is in no way changing their gender, their marriage does not stand to be invalidated if the wrong law passes - the transsexual does face that risk. That's just one example of a difference. Another is medical - the CD or the GV has no need to concern themselves with whether or not an insurance plan covers treatment for GI issues.

To squint and pretend there is no distinction between the real life concerns of TS and TG people is just silly. It does not mean one group is better than the other.

I am still not quite sure how transsexuals seek to differentiate themselves from the mortals of this world. I do know, by any of the current definations, I will be excluded, consigned to the lesser group, transgender.

Emotionalistic rhetoric without substance. There is no claim to superiority. I do not think it is in error to suggest that from a practical point of view, seeking legal protection for those things a transsexual MUST do in order to complete his or her treatment is a more compelling claim than seeking to expand the scope of when and where a gender-nonconforming person may choose to...non-conform.

The two groups have much common ground there to be sure, but no, it's not logical to sacrifice the ability of the transsexual to use the target-gender restroom (for instance) so that a weekend fetishistic crossdresser can use it while in drag. YES it would be super cool if we lived in a culture where none of that mattered, but it does, and sensible priorities are NOT prejudicial. the all or nothing strategy almost never works well in political action.

but, again, nothing about that implies I am better than you or my needs more important - simply that they are somewhat different.

to take that as saying you are "second class" is your own fault - if you choose to hear an insult where none was delivered there's little anyone can do to stop it.

The long term damage this is going to do, and it will, make no mistake, could destroy almost every achievement we've collectively made so far.

I don't see compelling evidence of this.

I have to say, I find the attitude of the Sex group distasteful, stupid, self centred and short sighted.

I'm not sure who "the sex group" is. At the risk of repeating myself (again) - noting the specific needs and distinctions of two allied groups is NOT an argument that either set of concerns is superior to or more important than, the other. Environmentalists work together with animal protection people, but their specific agendas are NOT the same, nor is either necessarily superior to the other by definition. Gays and transgender people, ostensibly, work together, even though clearly they have different goals in many places. Are there many gays who FEEL and ACT as if the trans folks are the ugly step-sister who's not important? SURE.

But because inconsiderate people cop an attitude, it does not therefore logically follow that you throw out the logical premise which underlies the attitude.

[Tammy Hope]

I will contine to support all of my brothers and sisters in Transgender in their struggel for the absolute right of self expression. Which is the only rational, long term objective, however each choose to express that.

Indeed. But NO civil rights struggle was one whole cloth in one fell swoop. Such rights are recognized incrementally, when the fearful learn that the world did not, in fact, end the last time more liberty was granted.

I agree with you about the long term endgame, but i do not think it's realistic to assume you achieve checkmate on the first move.

[Tammy Hope]

>>>SMACK<<<

Okay, you're right. I'll stop.

I don't understand why folks are so invested in categorizing other folks in ways that the other folks don't want. There's a big difference between "I see you this way" and "You ARE this way because I say so, regardless of what you actually think."

+1

[V M]

Personally, I find the "Trans Term Wars" to be humorously and ridiculously redundant    But that's just my opinion...

[spacial]

I don't find it humourous at all. I see it as, at best, utterly silly at worst, sinister.

The reason for the separation of gays from transgender is that gay is about emphasising their sexuality. That is fine for them, since their objective is a recognition of their fundimentally sexaul relationship.

Transgender saw itself, fundimentally about lifestyle and self expression. What someone may or may not have sexually, is no-one's business. On a personal level, we embrace a wide spectrum of relationships. The unifying factor is how we seek to present ourselves to the world according to our conscience.

While we, as a unified group, present the message of individual liberty, to express ourselves according to our personal conscience. While we continue to meet detractors by labeling them as seeking to impose restrictve values. While we seek to continue and maintain the principals of individualism and liberty, begun after the reformation and which created the USA, ours becomes the real face of American values.

But as I said, I simply cannot see the point in creating a division between some post-op people and the rest of us. I especially don't understand why the post-op people seek to identify themselves with the term, Transexual, when we have previously spent so much energy seeking to stand back from this term, which some have rightly described as reminiscent of Jerry Springer. (I have no intention of changing my sex. My sex is female. My body has been poluted by an ugly growth which I can do little about).

I see no difference between someone who seeks as complete as possible transision, to someone who seeks to express themselves through basic dress style or expressions of gender varient behaviour. Society has already embraced so much gender varient behaviour, from long hair, even pony tails, in men, to essentially male associated clothing in women. The process is only being stalled by those that see the modern world as fundimentally flawed and that the causes of this are moden values.

I appreciate the point that distinction may not be a division. However, this is clearly the effect if not the purpose. I especially find it surprising that some feel the need to proclaim to the world that they are indeed post-op. I also appreciate the point of the claim, but still fail to see the point of the distinction.

I am eagerly looking forward to a clarification from those that seek this.

[spacial]

Indeed. But NO civil rights struggle was one whole cloth in one fell swoop. Such rights are recognized incrementally, when the fearful learn that the world did not, in fact, end the last time more liberty was granted.

I agree with you about the long term endgame, but i do not think it's realistic to assume you achieve checkmate on the first move.

No, but taking the chess analogy further, the reason a player will show an apparent weakness at an early stage , is to ultimately create a strong position later on. That can only work when the opponent has already, mistakenly assumed they are in a strong position.

The presumption of our oponents is not mistaken. They are infinately stronger than us. They carry all the cards because they carry the forces of law and the mob. Our only hope of winning through here is to deal with each objection with a strong defence that reinforces opponents, not undermines them.

[Tammy Hope]

Society has already embraced so much gender varient behaviour, from long hair, even pony tails, in men, to essentially male associated clothing in women.

Indeed. And that in itself point to the distinction between "expression" and "condition"

if, for instance, insurers see transsexual medical treatment as nothing but a sort of extreme form of "expression" they have no more reason to cover it than they do implants for the vain cougar.

Furthermore, consider the various businesses and jobs for which the variant expressions you mentioned are NOT an option? Cocktail waitress? Park your butch expression at the door, honey. Banker? We'll pass on the ponytail sir. Police officer? the list goes on and on. To add to that, a man with a ponytail doesn't get to go in the ladies room, nor a butch lesbian in the men's. (generally speaking)

IF our petition is "allow us the freedom to express a gender variant presentation" then that freedom will stop in all the same places the male ponytail stops.

This sort of roadblock is not consistent with the SoC for transsexuals in transition.

Because I'm concerned about where I'm legally allowed to pee, does that mean i'm gonna throw the crossdresser or drag queen under the bus? No. But their problems are not always my problems and mine are definitely not always there's.

I can't really speak to the bit about what the post-ops think - I'm pre-op and under the best case scenario (outside of winning the lottery) i will be for years to come. but i DO understand the temptation to, having done all that can medically be done, just blend in and be "just another woman" - heck the most rewarding days i have now are the days when no one reminds me that I'm not.

i do, also, feel the pull of vocal activism - to clear the path for those who might come behind me, but i very much let my mind wander to a day when I could go all over town and not one soul would recognize me as anything other than just another woman.

Ultimately, perhapps that's the greatest distinction then:

for the Gender Variant who does NOT seen to transition to the status of "just another woman (man)" - there ongoing mission in life is non-conformity.

For the TS, who's dream above all others is to fit smoothly into the customary binary arrangement, the LAST thing they ultimately want is to be seen as "variant" or a non-conformist. Perhaps this is not 100% true but it's the vast majority. I know that in my own mind, the ONLY thing that would make me identify openly as trans post op - in a high profile way - would be if I thought I could make a real difference in acceptance for others just starting out. but even then I would do everything I could to appear entirely "ordinary" - not variant and not "non-conformist"

and even more so if i chose not to be involved in activism.

So what you are ultimately asking is "why do all you people who want very much to conform not want to be labeled non-conformist?"

Which, ya know, kinda answers itself.

[Ann Onymous]

Transgender saw itself, fundimentally about lifestyle and self expression. What someone may or may not have sexually, is no-one's business. On a personal level, we embrace a wide spectrum of relationships. The unifying factor is how we seek to present ourselves to the world according to our conscience.

And for me, as a former transsexual, this was NEVER about 'lifestyle' or even 'self-expression.' Both of those terms imply basically that one CHOOSES to present in a particular manner, and for ME, it is critical that the world understands that I had a medical condition and that I did not simply wake up one morning and decided that I wanted to present in a different manner.  It WAS about LIFE in the sense of correcting a birth defect.  And once the physical was corrected to match the mental, then there WAS no further issue...I could get on living as the lesbian I was intended to be.

[Padma]

I experience both, and they're distinct and separate: there's a way in which I'd like to present myself (which is about clothes, hair, stuff like that) which will indeed be a choice - but there's also a more fundamental change to my anatomical appearance, which isn't something I've "chosen" but something I need to have happen to reflect my sense of true gender (which I never "chose", except while I was choosing to ignore it).

[Shana A]

Another is medical - the CD or the GV has no need to concern themselves with whether or not an insurance plan covers treatment for GI issues.

There are some gender variant, genderqueer, androgynes, third gender and others not mentioned who do want/need/desire/require medical treatment so as to bring their body in congruence with their internal sense of gender, and thus have similar insurance and documentation concerns. I don't think it is as simple as drawing a line and saying TS is this and TG is that. There is overlap.

Z

[tekla]

Many seek mental health services also.

[Shana A]

Many seek mental health services also.

Yes. I'm sure I paid my therapist (out of pocket) enough for a nice room redecoration or two 

Z

[tekla]

I know that when your sitting by yourself, and are looking at yourself vs. the world it and everyone in it that it's easy to draw all sorts of bright lines and hard distinctions.  The more real life examples you have, the more in the middle of it you are, the more Möbius that line gets.  Because there are all sorts of people, on all sorts of journeys, and at all conceivable points along the way.  How the hell am I supposed to tell?  I mean the only hard bright line that can be drawn is to have everyone pull down their pants and we'll check it out.  I can't believe that's what anyone wants.  Though many infer that it is EXACTLY what they want.

[Ann Onymous]

I don't think it is as simple as drawing a line and saying TS is this and TG is that. There is overlap.

There is NOT enough overlap so as to allow a group to try and force those of us who subscribe to a binary and have life fully in order into an overly broad umbrella term that SIMPLY DOES NOT APPLY TO OUR LIFE!

I can only hope that one day the majority gets WHY those of us in the apparent minority are so pissed about our voices being ignored...

[spacial]

And for me, as a former transsexual, this was NEVER about 'lifestyle' or even 'self-expression.' Both of those terms imply basically that one CHOOSES to present in a particular manner, and for ME, it is critical that the world understands that I had a medical condition and that I did not simply wake up one morning and decided that I wanted to present in a different manner.  It WAS about LIFE in the sense of correcting a birth defect.  And once the physical was corrected to match the mental, then there WAS no further issue...I could get on living as the lesbian I was intended to be.

I understand your rationale. I understand and share your feelings.

Traditionally, we have been forced, by society, to exist in a manner according to its values and standards. A few brave souls who sought to alter their presentation and the way society interacts with them, faced ridicule and persecution, if discovered.

But it is about self expression. Expressing who we are, as opposed to whatever society has dictated.

It is about lifestyle. Being free to live according to our conscience and feelings, rather than the dictates of others.

And it is about choice, however uncomfortable and horrifying the alternatives may be. It is a choice that is created by the social evolution in post reformation, human society. The same choice which encouraged a few brave women to stand up and say they are not idiots. The same choice that encouraged many people, negro, Slavs, indeed many others to stand up and say, I am a man, a free man, I demand my dignity. The same choice that encouraged ordinary people to expect opportunities based upon their ability and effort, rather than their social class. The same choice that created America and brought hundreds of thousands onto the streets to demand an end to war. The same choice that gay people took when they started their 'Coming Out of the Closet' movement.

I don't seek to undermine the intensity of your personal needs, nor the strength of your motivation. We continue to have many, within our community, for whom that intensity and strength simply isn't enough to overcome the pressures of environment. Most of us were, at a time, in that situation, as demonstrated by the need for transision in the first place.

And I will take this opportunity to defend those that don't actively seek full transision simply because we all lack the expreience and knowledge to fully understand the pressures that have created their situation.

Frankly, the claims of medical justification leave us open to the mercy of others, especially within the psychology community. We cannot prove medical justification, however much we may feel, innately, that it is there. Such 'evidence' that has been presented is open to interpertation on so many different levels.

To assume that we can ignore the revisionists, the trads, (making false claims of religious justification), the minority that seek to impose their narrow attitudes up us all. To ignore the effects these people have on parents and relatives of those struggling to come to terms with who they are. To ignore those who seek to impose economic, social, acedemic and even legal sanctions. To assume that these people have retreated is, I suggest a serious error.

Our call, our demand must be to repeat the same demand that women, slaves, lower social classes, the poor, the disabled, gays have all made over the last 400 or so years, we demand to be free.

[Ann Onymous]

I understand your rationale. I understand and share your feelings.

[snip]

But it is about self expression. Expressing who we are, as opposed to whatever society has dictated.

It is about lifestyle. Being free to live according to our conscience and feelings, rather than the dictates of others.

The only thing that could remotely be considered 'lifestyle' is that I am a lesbian.  However, I also do not subscribe to the theory that BEING a lesbian is a lifestyle or a choice.  I have YET to have a single straight person who could answer the question of when they realized they wanted to sleep only with people of the opposite sex...to a person, they have always responded that they just knew.  My being lesbian is no different. 

Self-expression?  That comes down to whether one wants to wear slacks or a skirt.  It has NOTHING to do with the fact that I *AM* female.  I subscribe to a binary.  I don't buy into the variant theories nor are the issues of those who do directly on point with MY issues. 

I am NOT 'transgendered' no matter how much people like Cristan and others the umbrella crowd insist that those of us who got on with life may be...the fact that they REFUSE to accept that some of us want NOTHING to do with the effing umbrella is just appalling because it places them in the precise position of doing what they accused "Gay, Inc." of having done for so many years- ignoring the voices of the apparent minority.     

[spacial]

The only thing that could remotely be considered 'lifestyle' is that......

I'm sorry, but I don't argue semantics.

[Tammy Hope]

And for me, as a former transsexual, this was NEVER about 'lifestyle' or even 'self-expression.' Both of those terms imply basically that one CHOOSES to present in a particular manner, and for ME, it is critical that the world understands that I had a medical condition and that I did not simply wake up one morning and decided that I wanted to present in a different manner.  It WAS about LIFE in the sense of correcting a birth defect.  And once the physical was corrected to match the mental, then there WAS no further issue...

Yes, YES, YES!

Precisely!

[Tammy Hope]

There are some gender variant, genderqueer, androgynes, third gender and others not mentioned who do want/need/desire/require medical treatment so as to bring their body in congruence with their internal sense of gender, and thus have similar insurance and documentation concerns. I don't think it is as simple as drawing a line and saying TS is this and TG is that. There is overlap.

Z

In some cases, but the distinction I'm making is between those who do and those who don't. There are ALWAYS exceptions (just as there are people who identify as TS but are "non-op" for whatever reason) but exceptions do not disprove the GENERAL reality that MOST GV (and ALL CD's) are not seeking the sort of results achieved by medical intervention.