Gender Is Not Defined By The Activities One Likes

[Natasha]

Gender Is Not Defined By The Activities One Likes

http://mytgjourney.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/gender-is-not-defined-by-the-activities-one-likes/
6/30/11
by mytgjourney

I know most of the people will read the title of this thread and go "duh", but some recent events got me thinking about how it seems some people use the activities or hobbies they enjoy to almost define their gender. In my opinion atleast the activities that one enjoys really has no bearing on gender. I know I am partially writing this to validate my own feelings but there is I believe truth to the statement. I am not one of those people who love everything feminine and hate anything related to masculinity activity wise. Infact, I love sports, I love video games, and many other things. All considered masculine activities. Can I really say for sure what feminine things I truly like as much as the masculine things I like? Nope I can't say for sure.

[Princess of Hearts]

Some of us embrace stereotypical feminine activities etc because we have been denied these things for so long.    We are like starving people at a banquet...in time we will have 'eaten' our fill and settled down.    For this same reason some of have also rejected male activities.   I am not interested at all in sport especially 'manly' sports like football(soccer) and rugby.  I also cannot tell one make of car from another.   I also dislike computer games, not because they are seen as male, but because I don't like the message that they send out to highly impressionable minds.   These games are heavily reliant upon violence, ultra violence, mass killing, and killing in bizarre and grotesque ways .  These games tell impressionable boys that violence is an acceptable way to settle disputes and he who smashes his opponent the hardest wins.   

[Sephirah]

I'm not sure how it's possible to do activities or hobbies if you don't actually like them, even if they are seen to define gender. I couldn't do something that bored me to tears for the sake of somehow reinforcing my gender, it really isn't worth wasting the time that could be better spent on something enjoyable instead.

Interestingly though, video games aren't a predominantly masculine activity anymore.

http://www.themarysue.com/gaming-statistics/

42% female, 58% male.

[Taka]

These games tell impressionable boys that violence is an acceptable way to settle disputes and he who smashes his opponent the hardest wins.   

for many boys these games give them an outlet for their aggression, so that they can solve conflicts irl without resorting to violence. when i get too pissed off to think clearly i'll go kill some monsters if i'm connected to the internet, or i'll read some of the gory violent comics that i like so much. most people understand the difference between fantasy and reality. some of the most violent men i've known have never touched a video game in their life, while some of the serious gamers are so nice i just want to huggle them half to death

as for interests defining gender.. too many men like to cook, and too many women play soccer to say there's a difference. interests don't define anyone's gender at all, but the environment one grows up or lives in may influence them. like how all the kids (including the girls, but excepting my bro) in my bro's middle school class went on to become car mechanics, simply because the only practical career choices were that, nurse, or teacher, and they all liked cars better than old people or kids

[Vicky]

I learned my "girl" hobbies and activities because of a childhood health issue, and since I could do them at all, I found I could do them well.  I very much enjoy my skills at cooking, sewing, embroidery and other craft items.  Once those health issues were resolved, I found that there were a lot of "male" activities that I would never be able to do, but others that I could dovetail (a pun, since I love fine woodworking too) into my "female" oriented activities.  The there are the gender neutral activities (my amateur/ham radio club meeting today was an even mix of male and female) that I enjoy and participate in as well. 

There are the lyrics to a children's song from my childhood that sum it up pretty well:

GRANDMA GRUNTS --

Grandma grunts at a curious thing,
That boys must whistle and girls must sing
Tra la la, tra la la, tra la la la la

Why can't girls whistle too if they will
If they manage to do it well....    (My apologies for any copyright infringment)

[Taka]

he he, nice song. though only "sinners" would ever whistle around here (christian society), it's associated with an old type of potentially harmful magic. you whistle when making wind, a wind that could kill those out at sea. not many outside the christian tradition know about this connection to magic, but they'll still tell the kids not to whistle "because it'll start raining"

[kate durcal]

If gender is not define by the activities one likes (which I agree)), then what defines gender?

Kate D

[Sephirah]

If gender is not define by the activities one likes (which I agree)), then what defines gender?

Kate D

Everyone who isn't you.

[kate durcal]

Gender identity and gender role

Gender identity is defined as a personal conception of oneself as male or female (or rarely, both or neither). This concept is intimately related to the concept of gender role, which is defined as the outward manifestations of personality that reflect the gender identity. Gender identity, in nearly all instances, is self-identified, as a result of a combination of inherent and extrinsic or environmental factors; gender role, on the other hand, is manifested within society by observable factors such as behavior and appearance. For example, if a person considers himself a male and is most comfortable referring to his personal gender in masculine terms, then his gender identity is male. However, his gender role is male only if he demonstrates typically male characteristics in behavior, dress, and/or mannerisms.

Thus, gender role is often an outward expression of gender identity, but not necessarily so. In most individuals, gender identity and gender role are congruous. Assessing the acquisition of this congruity, or recognizing incongruity (resulting in gender-variant behavior), is important in the developing child. It is important also to note that cultural differences abound in the expression of one's gender role, and, in certain societies, such nuances in accepted gender norms can also play some part in the definition of gender identity.

In order to understand gender identity development and related issues, definitions must be emphasized for clarity. The topic of gender identity is often discussed merely in terms of dysfunction, and the diagnosis of gender identity disorder is a known phenomenon in both children and adults. However, physicians should remember that all individuals possess a gender identity and that the process of becoming aware of it is an important part of the psychosocial development of a child. In the realm of pediatrics, recognition of gender identity is a process rather than a particular milestone, and variance from societal norms can cause distress to both the child and the child's family. It is necessary to understand the varied pathways that lead to a mature and congruent gender role in order to fully assess a person's behavioral health
(http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/917990-overview)

It seems that threy were talking about gender rolse rather than gender identity. Still, even the texbook defintions seem not clear, as above.

Kate D

[spacial]

In another thread, Julie Marie made the point, which I agree with:

The repulsion exhibited by "straight" men by even the slightest thought of intimacy with another man always leads me to "methinks thou dost protest too much."

Reading this thread, has got me thinking a bit more.

It seems to be an almost universal reality that straight men especially, feel a need to prove themselves, often using physical threat to back up their position. Indeed, I've noticed that those men who don't, seem to be more likely to be labeled as possibly gay.

I'm wondering if this may be part of the feral instinct of securing their position within the male peer group?

[Sabriel Facrin]

If all males were to be alpha males, there'd be no cooperation in the first place, right...? I really think that the hard-rule gender segregations are nothing more than artificial.

Over time the line between a male area and female area has really blurred, and it's an overall awkward situation for recent generations that neither gender have nitches they can work into naturally.  Considering males are no longer the labor gender, and females are no longer the nurturing gender, unlike older times, there's no effective ways for individuals to stick themselves out as their gender.  On top of that, we get all these new standards that are gradually going towards the promotion of a gender attempting to be attractive towards itself, a gender blanketing its interests and attractiveness to BOTH genders, and flat out 'fence jumpers' so to speak...you can say that with each generation there's a good heavy thwak of a mace upon 'Gender Role' ---and it's especially important for cisgender heterosexuals because it's what they run on for their romance/reproduction aspect.

I guess it only makes sense that against the breaking bounderies, in order to cling onto gender significance, a social allergy has developed in the genders.  I do find that just about anyone still won't buy too much into it, though, unless if a man is especially flamboyant or a woman especially brutish compared to the "standard".

[spacial]

Not so sure about your conclusions Sabriel.

Firstly, all males, self evidently, don't become Alpha, any more than all females do, but they all seek it and submit to those that succeed. That's the structure of the male peer group.

I have to agree with your point that male and female roles have blurred, but to an extent. The differing peer groups they tend to form are the same. I suggest the blurring is more because they tend to indulge in each other's activities and females tend to wear male clothing.

Personally, I suggest that females nurturing remains very distinctive. I also suggest that male nurturing has always existed. But generally remains distinct.

[LordKAT]

he he, nice song. though only "sinners" would ever whistle around here (christian society), it's associated with an old type of potentially harmful magic. you whistle when making wind, a wind that could kill those out at sea. not many outside the christian tradition know about this connection to magic, but they'll still tell the kids not to whistle "because it'll start raining"

Having been raised a christian and surrounded by them, I have to disagree here. I never even heard of this whistle christian relationship. More likely it is location based.

[kate durcal]

i grow up in a catholic country in SA, and never heard of "the powerful magic associated with fartin while whistling." You just wait till I tell the boy's about this one, there is going to be a lot of whistling in my household, LOL

Kate D

[Taka]

Having been raised a christian and surrounded by them, I have to disagree here. I never even heard of this whistle christian relationship. More likely it is location based.

as i tried to explain, the christians don't like whistling because of how it's used for magic. but you're right, it is a local thing. in norway wind used to be necessary to get anywhere while too much of it could kill. a country of sailors, whistling is a way to imitate the sound of the wind, so it is natural to use for wind magic, and many don't like to be reminded what damage a good storm can do at sea. now most people have forgotten why we're not supposed to whistle, and some of the locals here have been pretty shocked to hear people whistle psalms in finland. they never were seafarers, so to them whistling is not related to anything sinful

[justmeinoz]

Interesting topic. 
Girls can do anything they want as far as I am concerned.  Over the last few weeks I have realised I have been a Feminist since I was a child, and never could understand how gender could affect the size of your pay packet.  Having grown up in an Army family I was aware of women  like the Israeli Army's women soldiers, and the activity of the Red Air force's "Night Witches"( they bombed the Germans in obsolete biplanes, at night). 

I am moving from inland Victoria to Tasmania, and plan on buying a place on the beach so I can fish whenever I like.
Some people might sonsider fishing to be a "male" activity, but I can remember how a lot of the women living on the lakes in the East of the state would all get together for a day of Bream fishing.  Not easy to catch, you have to be dedicated.
Damned if I am going to give up motorcycling either, I'll just find a women's club to ride with if there are bigots around.
Karen.

[Hikari]

Interesting thread, it does seem to me in general that lots of stereotypical masculine activities are competitive whereas lots of stereotypical feminine ones are cooperative. What is intresting about this though, is that there is usually an element of the other, for example, while most sports do compete to win, you still have to cooperate with your team. Likewise, while there is no "winning" knitting or crocheting, I have certainly seem people compete to try and make something nicer than their friends.

I think that most of this is culture though, but I am sure that nature plays at least a role in it too. That being said it has very little bearing on who someone is. A cisgendered woman who likes playing paintball is never seen as being someone who is secretly a man since she enjoys the activity, and while I have had male friends question my sexuality due to my hobbies none of them (that I am not out to) have even thought anything about gender due to it.

@ Princess of Hearts: There are nonviolent games too, I love the strategy in some games, and even some that involve destruction that I like such as Eve Online or Carnage Heart are pretty hard to call violent. I think that compaines sell violence in the same way they sell sex in movies, but not all movies have sex in them either.