Hey everyone!

[apple pie]

Hello there!

I have been full time for just a few months (since I was moving home anyway I thought I'd go full time), but have largely stayed away from the transgender community because I want to feel normal like everyone else who isn't transgender, and at times I just don't really want to think about it... so I'm not quite sure why I am here! But here I am

So maybe it's why I have some ideas in my head which seem to be different from the standard ideas... For a start, I am actually not comfortable with being transgender (and generally don't talk about it unless I trust the person a lot). And for example, I tend to think, I can understand it if friends don't want to accept me, and then I would just quietly fall away from them.......

[annette]

Hi Apple pie

welcome to the forum.
I've read your post with interest and especially the part that you want to be normal.
I've good news for you honey, you are normal.
But the only thing is, you have a birth defect, as so many people have....hey, nobody is perfect.
Thankfully there can be something done about it.
As you will read the posts on the forums you'll see that there are many normal persons, we read, learn, love, suffer are sometimes bored, you know, these kind of stuff.
Main problem is that society don't see you as normal, why? beats me, I don't know.
On the other hand, why should your friends have to left you? you're still the same person and the became friends with you because you had some qualities they liked about you.
So, I hope things will work out in the good way for you.

hugs
Annette

[Jillieann Rose]

Hi Apple,
It's good to meet you.
What is normal? We are all different from one another.
But most of us here at Susan's were born with some wrong parts and parts missing.
And as Annette said

Main problem is that society don't see you as normal, why? beats me, I don't know.

That is why we are here. To help and support one another.
Many leave this site once they are full time but some stay to help the new ones.
If your losing friends because you were born with a birth defeated were they really friends?
Please stay and join in the conversations here at Susan's, your experience is valuable if you share it with others.
Welcome to Susan's,
Jillieann

[apple pie]

Thank you for your welcome, annette and Jillieann!

I think I expressed badly what I wanted to say about feeling normal. I am normal enough alright, like annette said! But I don't feel normal because there's always a significant portion of each day when I think about transgender matters, and sometimes it feels like I waste so much time thinking about it. And non-transgender people don't waste this time...

As for friends, I know that the idea of friends is that they accept you. Yet I sometimes imagine what it'd be like to be someone who, for example, was brought up learning that all GLBT people are evil. If I grew up in Saudi Arabia (and not transgender), it would be very improbable that I'd accept a transgender friend. That's an extreme example I know (I don't actually have any Saudi Arabian friends), but I tend to think that those who would reject me do so because of the preconceived ideas drilled into them from the environment they grew up in - and that's very hard to change. I have my own preconceived ideas about other things too myself! So I don't blame them for not accepting me, and just quietly stop contacting them...

Anyway, I suppose I am the less common type then! Since I am coming here only after becoming full time I am a bit surprised though, since I thought people who are full time would actually want more support. Hmmm maybe that's why I'm here? (after having said I don't know why I'm here)

[Starriver19]

Hi apple it is very nice to meet you

[RachaelAnn22]

Hi Apple Pie,welcome to Susan's,Hugs,Rachael

[Padma]

Hi Apple, and welcome to Susan's! We're a diverse and friendly bunch here (the head count is over 7800) - get into things as slowly or as quickly as you feel comfortable, I'm sure you'll find plenty of support here, as and when you feel you need it.

And be sure to check out these links for the bobby on the house rules:

• Site Terms of Service and rules to live by
  
• Standard Terms and Definitions
  
• Post Ranks ( including when you can upload an avatar/post links and photos)
  
• Age and the Forum
  
• Reputation rules
  

[annette]

Hi Apple

I don't think you expressed badly, I know what you mean, because I was there, where you are now more than 30 years ago.
But in the late 70ies  it was another time, less information, no internet, so people didn't know anything about TG.
In the present time everybody is able to find the information they need.

Please don't put yourself in a lower grade just because you're TG, you have the same rights as everybody else.
If I should have a friend with a problem what I can't understand I would do anything to get more information to try to understand.
And friends are people, with feelings, and there is a longtime connection, so if I wouldn't understand, I should be able to support the friend, coz that's what friends are for.
Friendship is builded on respect to eachother, otherwise it isn't a real friendship and than you loose nothing.

I have lost some friends, people who knew me for more than 10 years, I was blaming it to myself, coz I was TG.
Later on I realized it wasn't me to blame, the blame was on their narrow minded thoughts.
I've met other people, who knew about my problem, with some of them I have a friendship for over more than 25 years.
There is no need to explain, they know about my past and accept me for the one I am.
When one of us have a problem, the others try to help to solve the problem, if that's not possible, I try to support my friend, giving an ear to talk to, put an arm around a shoulder, being discrete so never tell anybody else what going on, that's friendship in the way I see it.

I hope you have friends who accept you for who you are, coz it is not your fault to be born this way.

Hugs
Annette

[apple pie]

Thank you annette, I won't put myself in a lower grade

I don't blame those who don't accept me, but I don't blame myself either. Like you said, it's because they are narrow minded, but I still won't hold a grudge against them just because of that either... often they can't help being narrow minded either because of their upbringing. I let them go and I don't think "he/she was someone who was mean/not nice/whatever"...

I have a couple of really good friends who I actually hardly contacted before I told them about it, but then supported me greatly afterwards—I treasure them greatly!

[annette]

Hi Apple

For what I've read from you, I think you've got an excellent point of view.
You're gonna make a lot of friends and I think you're a great contribution to the forums.

About your feelings of being normal, well I don't think anyone of us didn't want to be born as a transgender, hell no, it should be a lot easier to be born in the right gender, but nature makes faults once in a while.
I work in a hospital and the other day I saw a x-ray of a child with seven toes, everyone thinks it's too bad for the poor child, operations and so on but when it has to do with genitals people are a bit crampy about it.

After I had srs , I was thinking also what people should think about me, after all those years I don't care anymore, because I know who I am and what I've got to offer.
And of course it will always play a role, I do not think of it daily but when you're going into a new relationship for example there is a time you have to tell, that's always difficult.

But...that's the way it is, we have to take it as it comes and accept it.
I would lie if I say that it was giving trouble, when people know you a little better and they find out you're a good person it's not a big issue anymore, at least that's my experience.
After all, there is more to say about a person than gender, isn't it?

I'm glad to hear you have met some people who will support you, count your blessings girl.

hugs
Annette

[apple pie]

Thanks for your compliment

Unfortunately I am someone who cares quite a lot about what others think about me usually... I care a lot about whether people think I'm nice, I'm caring, I'm considerate... and so on, and I get upset if people think I'm nasty (and would go to great lengths to ensure they know I never meant to be nasty)... I suppose that at some point when I grow older, I will stop caring but it may take a few more years!

But fortunately at the moment, I don't care too much about how they think of me in terms of gender. It's probably related to the fact that I don't really think of myself mainly in terms of gender in the first place—I don't really like to put the emphasis on the boy-girl thing. Like you said, there's a lot more to a person than gender. I think of it as just one of those standard characteristics like being Asian or having blonde hair or something like that: you happen to have that characteristic, but you don't usually go on and on and on about being Asian or having blonde hair. It was also one reason I stayed away from other trans people, because I had the impression that it seems trans people often focus too much on gender! It's almost like some teenage gamer who spends allllll their time on gaming and doesn't think about much else—get a life!! I'm glad not everyone is like that here

I suppose "having the wrong genitals" is different from "having the wrong number of toes", because it's standard for humans to have ten toes and also standard for humans to have the male genitals or the female genitals. So while "having seven toes" is immediately recognizable as incorrect, someone with a body that has every standard characteristic of being male isn't really incorrect in the same sense. On the other hand, mental states different from the standard one (whatever that actually means...) are actually also incorrect in the same sense as having the wrong number of toes. So perhaps in a sense, it's our brains that developed incorrectly and not the genitals, which as far as I can see grew completely correctly after a correct transcription of the correct sequence of genes that dictate how genitals develop (whereas in the case of toes, either the genes mutated or the transcription was botched). So purely in terms of reason, the easiest "cure" would have been to somehow switch the brain's identified gender to the same one as the genitals, but since there's no real way of effecting that (at least at our current level of medical knowledge), the best way to deal with it is to adapt the person's life to the brain's status, which is basically what's done with all the other issues to do with the brain anyway (Alzheimer's or strokes etc.).

I know, very contrary to the standard opinion, but I told you in my first post that I do have some non-standard ideas in my head We say that the others don't understand transsexuals because of preconceived ideas in their minds, but transsexuals also have preconceived ideas too (what I called standard ideas). I like to let them go and see what I can see without them.

[Robyn]

Welcome aboard, Apple.

I enjoyed your writings in this thread not only for the teasers about nonstandard ideas but also because your writing is extremely clear. (Makes me wonder if you are an engineer or a professional writer.)

I hope I'll see some of your ideas, although I spend most of my time in Chat.  Do come over and join us there. It is nice to get some conversations going about gender issues/ideas.

Robyn

[annette]

Hi Apple

Thanks for your post, like I said...an excellent point of view.
Especially the preconceived ideas of transsexuals too.
I think you're so right, when you let them go it's a lot more objective.
I think we can learn a lot of you.
I didn't want to compare 7toes with gid, it's more that I wanted to say that things can go wrong, even when you don't see it on the outside, that's some part of life we have to accept.

I like your way of writing very much, to the point, clear and with a sharp eye for details.
Thanks for joining us, people like you are more than welcome.

Hugs
Annette

[Sage]

Hi, apple!  I'm Sage!  Nice to meet you.   

[apple pie]

Actually I popped into chat once or twice before I think, but I didn't know what to say! I'll try it again some time.

I think my strange way of writing is an old habit from what I used to study, which had us writing stuff that takes one from a bunch of assumptions to a series of conclusions (often wading through numerous traps where something seems obviously true but actually is not in the process) so don't mind it!

From just the few days I've been here, it's definitely me learning from everyone here so far and not the other way round. I'm glad to be here

And hi Sage!

[grrl1nside]

I suppose "having the wrong genitals" is different from "having the wrong number of toes", because it's standard for humans to have ten toes and also standard for humans to have the male genitals or the female genitals. So while "having seven toes" is immediately recognizable as incorrect, someone with a body that has every standard characteristic of being male isn't really incorrect in the same sense. On the other hand, mental states different from the standard one (whatever that actually means...) are actually also incorrect in the same sense as having the wrong number of toes. So perhaps in a sense, it's our brains that developed incorrectly and not the genitals, which as far as I can see grew completely correctly after a correct transcription of the correct sequence of genes that dictate how genitals develop (whereas in the case of toes, either the genes mutated or the transcription was botched). So purely in terms of reason, the easiest "cure" would have been to somehow switch the brain's identified gender to the same one as the genitals, but since there's no real way of effecting that (at least at our current level of medical knowledge), the best way to deal with it is to adapt the person's life to the brain's status, which is basically what's done with all the other issues to do with the brain anyway (Alzheimer's or strokes etc.).

I have been staring at this for a bit now. Somehow, I find myself on a similar wavelength and in broad agreement with what you are saying yet finding something in it that makes me nervous. Why is that?...

Maybe it is seeing the repeated use of correct and incorrect, the words 'standard' and 'cure?' The layout of, if everything had just followed this correct sequence of this or that... There is so much dependent on everything following this or that path, this chemical release at that rough time and it goes on throughout our life. A person's development can be impacted by so many internal and external factors and although as a physical person we may have a "wonderful" image of correctness, we are all in fact imperfect in some way shape or form.

In a way, that is why I'm increasingly hopeful. As people have slowly started to realize that the human body has all sorts of quirks, problems, frailties, and strengths and that most of us have experienced them in some way, shape, or form that there is a growing acceptance that all sorts of things of happen and that we rarely fit in a simple binary healthy/unhealthy, male/female, correct/incorrect model. I'm very happy to see that most binaries are under challenge and for good reason. I did notice that there was an implicit hierarchy in that paragraph. The visual (can see 7 toes) is prioritized differently than that which is not immediately viewable (the mind/brain?). What would have been more interesting is if you developed the same discussion but comparing say multiple brain/mental conditions (e.g. the gender development issue compared to Alzheimers/Stroke or a mental health condition say schizophrenia) and how they are received as "correct/incorrect."  I suspect that it might be quite revealing about some of the other value hierarchies out there (e.g. male/female is not just a binary but prioritized).

I'll definitely have to mull this over some more... Very well-written by the way. I was thinking your brain transplant idea, mixed with your writing style would make for an interesting science fiction piece if you are a writer.

Cheers...

[apple pie]

Hello grrl!

Yes what I wrote probably is unsettling!

I think I tried to use the words "correct / incorrect" to imply the correctness of the underlying biomolecular operations of gene transcription—seven toes is "incorrect" in the sense that even though the original genes would have programmed the person to develop ten toes, some chemical processes didn't go the way they usually go during cell division, and somewhere down the line, the copied cells know to grow only seven toes instead. I used the word "standard" to imply a standard that is to some extent arbitrary, just one that many people agree to be the norm (during a particular period in human history I might add).

But then I said something about mental states different from the standard one are incorrect in the same sense as having the wrong number of toes... now that I read it again, I think here the "correct" / "incorrect" label should be applied to the brain and not the mental state, and unfortunately I have to insert an extra assumption at this point—the assumption that there exists such a thing as "brain gender", that is, the genes for the brain, when correctly transcribed, will always make it somehow operate in a male or female way. So the transcriptionally "correct" brain would operate in some particular male way if the cells are male, and would operate in a female way if the cells are female. So in a transsexual, the brain developed incorrectly... etc. ... and then the rest of what I said follows.

Now that you point it out, these words, together with the word "cure", probably reminds people of what the Nazis used to do, which definitely makes people nervous! I didn't have that in mind at all though when I wrote it. I think standards pretty much inevitably change over time. From imprecise things such as what's considered as a standard beautiful body shape for a girl, to precise scientific standards such as the definition of the second (unit of time), standards are bound to change, and I am not really worried that they won't One day, if the Catholic Church survives in human history for long enough, they will recognize homosexuality as normal, just as they have now recognized all sorts of things they used to say were blasphemous or whatever in the past.

[grrl1nside]

Hi Apple Pie!

Thanks for the thoughtful and, again, very articulate reply. By the way, it was exactly the Nazi and other orthodoxies (including aspects of medicalization) that made me very nervous about what you were saying. I also tend to see standards as historical and time-bound. I wonder in some respects, even from a scientific point of view, how much our notion of gender and sex will change. Fingers crossed, that we will come to see it as having a heck of a lot more grey than we often have. Of course, I have more than a little self-interest in that....

I'm having a giggle at myself thinking how funny the human body is. Well, at least mine is.  I'm not even on HRT yet and my wife laughed at me this morning saying I have more womanly hips than she does. So, between my brain and my hips, I have either a whole lot of genetic incorrectness or maybe those were the things that went right.

I am glad that you are challenging us to think at such a level. It can only help us to clarify our own thoughts on the roots of our selves and our community.

I look forward to chatting and learning in the other forums.

[apple pie]

Hmmm I actually don't view gender and sex as really completely different things (yet again non-standard )... I know, people say, sex is your biological sex, gender is the social idea of male/female. But I wouldn't put down something different in a form depending on whether it asked for "sex" or "gender"... However, I haven't really sat down and tried to formulate how then sex or gender should be defined.

Something else in my mind that's also pretty non-standard is that I don't believe in all sorts of equality between people in two related categories, such as age, sex etc. As an example, suppose intelligence could be represented as a number (which may not be true but well...), where a higher number denotes higher intelligence. What's the chance that the average intelligence of race A is equal to the average intelligence of race B? It is effectively zero or almost zero, because if two numbers (not necessarily a whole number) were chosen between (say) 0 and 100, there is zero probability that the two numbers would be equal (both numbers would have an infinite sequence of random-looking decimal places behind the decimal point). So almost certainly (i.e. with probability 1), race A is more intelligent than race B or race B is more intelligent than race A.

Anyway, I think it's enough crazy ideas from me for now, heehee See you around in the forums