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Anyone else think this is messed up?

Started by Matthew J. F, September 02, 2011, 03:37:20 PM

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xXRebeccaXx

Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2011, 09:14:36 PM
You do realize a court in Texas ruled it's not possible for someone who was born male/man to ever be a female/woman? Clearly some people do NOT believe I can be a woman.

All you have done is drawn your line slightly past where some other people have accepting a TS can be a woman. At some point when someone draws a line between where you need to go to be happy and where you are now, maybe you will get how wrong you are on this.

Texans are not real people, they are the human manifestation of bad ideas...
Even in death, may I be triumphant.
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insideontheoutside

"Liberal" lines of thought will always go, "Well people deserve to act however they like and do whatever they like to make them happy!" Make note that I use the term liberal, liberally and not in reference to politics. As much as I hate saying this, society DOES need rules. People can not actually do whatever the f**k they want to make them "happy". Think of the implications of that - and think it all the way through. Imagine a world where they were no checks and balances and no rules and people could just make all their own choices. People do have a lot of choices they CAN make (and usually do) but as Sharky (who actually DOES seem to be thinking things all the way through) pointed out, it's one of those, "where is the line drawn?" type of situations. Someone mentally unstable enough to want to chop off their arms and legs, I'm sorry, is not a very "healthy" individual to have making decisions. What if that person has a small child and is the only care-giver of that child? What if that person first decides other people also would look good with no arms and legs and takes matters into their own hands to make that a reality (I'm pretty sure there's police departments out there with reams of case files of "sick" individuals who committed similar types of crimes - all the while, gleefully doing it and truly believing they were doing the world some good). Like it or not, rules are there for a reason.

It's all so very easy to just sit around and call other people hypocrites because they might actually advocate that some rules might need to be in place, but then some things are minor enough to let slide (such as minor body modifications), but what's not so easy is to take a stand that people should not be allowed to do certain things - to be able to see the "fall out" that would actually happen if that were the case.

And comparing these types of modifications to transgender/transsexual people is like trying to compare apples and oranges. Trans stuff is already on the books as a diagnosed condition. I can argue all day long that I don't think it's a mental disorder but a naturally occurring phenomenon, but that really doesn't change anything. Yes, there are plenty of nut jobs out there in the world who feel they deserve happiness derived from whatever weird sh*t gets their rocks off - they're not exactly in the same class as trans people, so why are you putting them there? Why are you extending your personal "line" to include them? You just can't wave your wand with a broad stroke and declare that everyone has the same rights to do whatever pleases them. Things should be determined on a case by case basis and some general rules DO need to apply.

"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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xAndrewx

#82
I gotta say that while I do understand your disagreement Stephe and it is very well thought out that I agree with Inside and Sharky. Mathews (sp? Sorry on my phone so I can't check) original point seemed to be that they can do this without jumping through hoops like we have to. I agree.

We all need some line and sadly someone has to draw it. I cannot judge these people because I do not know them but I know that they are people. Thats my opinion on it and Sharky it takes guts to hold on to a disagreeing opinion so good for you man.

Edit: Upon more thought I decided to edit my post a bit. I think this better reflects my thoughts.

Sharky

Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2011, 09:14:36 PM
You do realize a court in Texas ruled it's not possible for someone who was born male/man to ever be a female/woman? Clearly some people do NOT believe I can be a woman.

All you have done is drawn your line slightly past where some other people have accepting a TS can be a woman. At some point when someone draws a line between where you need to go to be happy and where you are now, maybe you will get how wrong you are on this.
I am fully aware that everyone isn't supportive and understanding of transsexuals. I don't see what this has to do with anything. This is an entirely different issue. It is impossible for a human to be born with the identity of a tiger. Just because some texan may use a simular argument against transsexuals doesn't meant I'm wrong. It's a different line for a different issue. I've crossed many lines. There are ways around everything. Cat has obviously found a way around the Line. He just has to suffer through the surgeries without out the supervision of medical professionals and anastetic.
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Hermione01

QuoteSomeone mentally unstable enough to want to chop off their arms and legs, I'm sorry, is not a very "healthy" individual to have making decisions.

You do realize that the majority of people think cutting off healthy breasts and healthy penises is not normal. You're using an extreme case of people wanting a limb removed, (yes, there are documented cases of such people and they have a psychiatrist's approval with the said limb removed surgically under anesthetic, it is a diagnosed condition )yet people think cutting off healthy organs (breasts/penis) is as extreme as you can get.

I understand the frustration some having it hard to jump through hoops, to have their body modified to match their brains but picking out rare individuals who pay for their own kind of modifications are grasping at straws. They pay the price to be thought as a 'freak', yet they seem to revel in the attention, no harm done. This cat man must think it pretty cool to be brought into a discussion that really has nothing to do with anything. 

Why does it seem acceptable to rubbish the cat man?  Maybe he can't live being as he was before, should we deny him a place in society?  Would he and his kind be better off dead because society can't stand looking at them?  What about people born with deformities or suffer severe injuries from accidents?  Many in society can't stand to look at them either, should we shut them away or better still, exterminate them? 

These kind of discussions really don't serve any purpose other than fuel hatred against anyone who is different.  I don't for a moment presume to draw the line at what is normal even though the majority in society seem to think it's their duty.  It must be wonderful to be 'normal', look 'normal', behave 'normal' and call the shots on what's 'normal'.











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Sharky

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 09, 2011, 11:44:02 PM
"Liberal" lines of thought will always go, "Well people deserve to act however they like and do whatever they like to make them happy!" Make note that I use the term liberal, liberally and not in reference to politics. As much as I hate saying this, society DOES need rules. People can not actually do whatever the f**k they want to make them "happy". Think of the implications of that - and think it all the way through. Imagine a world where they were no checks and balances and no rules and people could just make all their own choices. People do have a lot of choices they CAN make (and usually do) but as Sharky (who actually DOES seem to be thinking things all the way through) pointed out, it's one of those, "where is the line drawn?" type of situations. Someone mentally unstable enough to want to chop off their arms and legs, I'm sorry, is not a very "healthy" individual to have making decisions. What if that person has a small child and is the only care-giver of that child? What if that person first decides other people also would look good with no arms and legs and takes matters into their own hands to make that a reality (I'm pretty sure there's police departments out there with reams of case files of "sick" individuals who committed similar types of crimes - all the while, gleefully doing it and truly believing they were doing the world some good). Like it or not, rules are there for a reason.

It's all so very easy to just sit around and call other people hypocrites because they might actually advocate that some rules might need to be in place, but then some things are minor enough to let slide (such as minor body modifications), but what's not so easy is to take a stand that people should not be allowed to do certain things - to be able to see the "fall out" that would actually happen if that were the case.

And comparing these types of modifications to transgender/transsexual people is like trying to compare apples and oranges. Trans stuff is already on the books as a diagnosed condition. I can argue all day long that I don't think it's a mental disorder but a naturally occurring phenomenon, but that really doesn't change anything. Yes, there are plenty of nut jobs out there in the world who feel they deserve happiness derived from whatever weird sh*t gets their rocks off - they're not exactly in the same class as trans people, so why are you putting them there? Why are you extending your personal "line" to include them? You just can't wave your wand with a broad stroke and declare that everyone has the same rights to do whatever pleases them. Things should be determined on a case by case basis and some general rules DO need to apply.

I completely agree with everything. I wouldn't want to live in a place where people could do whatever the hell the wanted just because it makes them happy. The reality is that there are mentally unstable individuals. I find it quite ridiculous that I shouldn't be allowed to state my opinion in a topic asking for opinions of people, who presumably aren't medical professionals, because I don't have more degrees than a thermometer, nor do I believe Stalking Cat is a sane unique individual.
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Da Monkey

I don't see what the big deal is.


So he wants to be a cat and another wants to be a lizard. Great, we'll put them on the cover of Big Whoop Magazine -- who gives a ->-bleeped-<-.

Ultimately we are all here for a good time not a long time.
The story is the same, I've just personalized the name.
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Sharky

Quote from: xAndrewx on September 10, 2011, 12:03:33 AM
I gotta say that while I do understand your disagreement Stephe and it is very well thought out that I agree with Inside and Sharky. Mathews (sp? Sorry on my phone so I can't check) original point seemed to be that they can do this without jumping through hoops like we have to. I believe he may think he is a cat but he wants to stay in a human society. If that is the case try to see this view.  We as humans could not function in a society of cats so he could not function as a cat in a human society.

We all need some line and sadly someone has to draw it. I cannot judge these people because I do not know them but I know that they are people. Thats my opinion on it and Sharky it takes guts to hold on to a disagreeing opinion so good for you man.

Thanks, and at least we have hoops to jump through. Cat doesn't because it is against the law for a doctor to do the things he wants. Some zoo let him play with their Tigers. He said the real tigers knew he was a tiger too and recognized him as one. I'm assuming they were sedated and trained and a wild jungle cat would just maul him, but he thinks he can function in a tiger's society.
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Sharky

Quote from: Hermione01 on September 10, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
You do realize that the majority of people think cutting off healthy breasts and healthy penises is not normal. You're using an extreme case of people wanting a limb removed, (yes, there are documented cases of such people and they have a psychiatrist's approval with the said limb removed surgically under anesthetic, it is a diagnosed condition )yet people think cutting off healthy organs (breasts/penis) is as extreme as you can get.

I understand the frustration some having it hard to jump through hoops, to have their body modified to match their brains but picking out rare individuals who pay for their own kind of modifications are grasping at straws. They pay the price to be thought as a 'freak', yet they seem to revel in the attention, no harm done. This cat man must think it pretty cool to be brought into a discussion that really has nothing to do with anything. 

Why does it seem acceptable to rubbish the cat man?  Maybe he can't live being as he was before, should we deny him a place in society?  Would he and his kind be better off dead because society can't stand looking at them?  What about people born with deformities or suffer severe injuries from accidents?  Many in society can't stand to look at them either, should we shut them away or better still, exterminate them? 

These kind of discussions really don't serve any purpose other than fuel hatred against anyone who is different.  I don't for a moment presume to draw the line at what is normal even though the majority in society seem to think it's their duty.  It must be wonderful to be 'normal', look 'normal', behave 'normal' and call the shots on what's 'normal'.
For most people cutting off healthy breast or penises isn't normal. Thinking you're a tiger and transitioning into a tiger is extreme in my book. In the show I watched about people wanting to become amputees they said doctors, in America at least, wouldn't cut off a healthy limb. These people often give themselves a bad case of frostbite and force doctors to amputate the limb.

I also think if you need attention so bad that you will purposely make yourself a freak that you're off your rocker too.

You're right Cat doesn't really fit in this topic because it was created to complain about how people who do "abnormal" things to themselves can get the surgeries they want, but transsexuals can't without jumping through hoops. Cat doesn't fit because he can't even get doctors to give him the surgeries he wants and that wont change with a few therapy sessions.

I don't think pointing out that he is mentally unstable is rubbishing him. It's just calling it like it is. Not everyone deserves a place in society. I'm all for imprisoning those who can't conform to societies rules and even capital punishment. I don't think he needs to be locked up unless he decides to start hunting humans or something. I think it would be the most humane to let him stay crazy since he has passed the point of no return. He would have a whole lot of regret to live with if he ever gained his sanity. I don't see what having deformities or injuries have to do with anything. Those aren't choices you make.

I don't hate Stalking Cat I just think he is crazy. Everyone is different, but I believe in a functioning reality where there are absolute truths and normal and abnormal exists, even though it varies and evolves.
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: Hermione01 on September 10, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
You do realize that the majority of people think cutting off healthy breasts and healthy penises is not normal. You're using an extreme case of people wanting a limb removed, (yes, there are documented cases of such people and they have a psychiatrist's approval with the said limb removed surgically under anesthetic, it is a diagnosed condition )yet people think cutting off healthy organs (breasts/penis) is as extreme as you can get.

I understand the frustration some having it hard to jump through hoops, to have their body modified to match their brains but picking out rare individuals who pay for their own kind of modifications are grasping at straws. They pay the price to be thought as a 'freak', yet they seem to revel in the attention, no harm done. This cat man must think it pretty cool to be brought into a discussion that really has nothing to do with anything. 

Why does it seem acceptable to rubbish the cat man?  Maybe he can't live being as he was before, should we deny him a place in society?  Would he and his kind be better off dead because society can't stand looking at them?  What about people born with deformities or suffer severe injuries from accidents?  Many in society can't stand to look at them either, should we shut them away or better still, exterminate them? 

These kind of discussions really don't serve any purpose other than fuel hatred against anyone who is different.  I don't for a moment presume to draw the line at what is normal even though the majority in society seem to think it's their duty.  It must be wonderful to be 'normal', look 'normal', behave 'normal' and call the shots on what's 'normal'.

Point missed.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Stephe

Quote from: xAndrewx on September 10, 2011, 12:03:33 AM

We all need some line and sadly someone has to draw it.


My point is: Be careful about allowing lines to be drawn. Very easily the line could be moved to a place between you and where you need to be happy. It actually was not that long ago.
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Miniar

Quote from: Stephe on September 10, 2011, 10:33:24 AM
My point is: Be careful about allowing lines to be drawn. Very easily the line could be moved to a place between you and where you need to be happy. It actually was not that long ago.

Exactly.

And my point is not that everyone should always be allowed to do whatever they want whatever that may be without any checks or balances or what so ever.
My point is, we don't get to draw the line based on the personal opinion, likes and beliefs of unqualified people, or whoever insists the loudest.

We don't get to assign sane v.s. insane on personal opinion.

The line has to be drawn, not based on what we "think" or "like" or "feel" but based on reason and logic and research with the end goal in mind to allow us all the chance to the best quality of life possible, not just physically but also emotionally and psychologically.




"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Mr. Fox

I think that guy in the mugshot looks awesome, ha ha.  But yeah, having to get letters is annoying.  Luckily I managed to schedule top surgery without one because I've been fulltime for so long (yet nobody will prescribe me hormones!  Annoying).  Anyway, I don't see why we must draw a line.  So somebody thinks they shouldn't have a left leg, or they should be a tiger . . . so what?  They're not hurting anybody.  In the case where they have a child, as you mention, stopping them from body modification won't actually help.  The mental problem (if you think there is one), will remain, and if there's any danger to the child, that would be it.  If you claim it is the physical changes which cause the problem, well them you'll have to start taking kids away from anyone who loses limbs in a car accident, or while fighting for our country.
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Mr. Fox

And of course my profile picture is Pete Burns, the queen of plastic surgery.  How appropriate.
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tekla

What if that person first decides other people also would look good with no arms and legs...

There is a pretty bright line between what you do to yourself, and what you would do to others.  Often expressed as: Your freedom to swing your arm stops at my nose.  So bringing that into the issues is just a straw-man/red herring argument trick.  We're not - and no one did - talk about forcing/mandating others to do this.  No one is talking about forcing anything on anyone, except Sharky who wants to punish non-conformity (I'm all for imprisoning those who can't conform to societies rules). 

I guess my first (and really only question) about any of this, all of it, body mods/transsexuals/hippies/Amish and Mennonites/anybody and everybody outside the mainstream is.... What's it matter to you?  If it's not harming you, interfering with your life, impacting you personally what's it matter if someone wants body tattoos making them look like a lizard, or a cat person, or if they want to live off the grid, or pursue a life structured around a different and differing set of values what's it matter to you?  Is the lizard guy, or the cat person, or the TS person impacting your life?  If not, what's it matter to you?

Worrying that some person might lump you in with 'those people' is useless as you can't control what other people think.  And if it comes down to freedom or fear, I'll take freedom.  Some people will always take things 'too far'.  That's how we find out exactly were 'too far' is.  And, usually after they are dead, they tend to be seen as pioneers, visionaries, artists and all that.  But that's not why they do it, I think they do it because, like the summit of Everest, they do it because it's there.  And still, in all the differences, we're all still more alike then we are different. 

Besides, some people's purpose in life is to serve as a bad example and a warning.

Long ago blues guys were tossing around versions of this.
There ain't nothing I can do or nothing I can say
That folks don't criticize me
But I'm going to do just as I want to anyway
And don't care just what people say

If I should take the notion to jump into the ocean
Ain't nobody's business if I do
If I go to church on Sunday then cabaret all day Monday
Ain't nobody's business if I do


They were right then, they are still right.


Not everyone deserves a place in society.
Okey dokey, then, if that's the way you want to play it.  Do we get to vote?  What happens if your the first person voted off the island, is that OK?  I mean we got big dog piles of people like you, one more or less ain't gonna make a big difference but how many tiger people do we have?  ICID - infinite diversity in infinite combination: 'Twas ever thus.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Kyle_S

I have nothing wrong with what any of these people are getting done to themselves, but yeah. It does piss me off that we gotta struggle to get the things we NEED to get done, as a core of our identities....even if its the core of their identity too, why should they be so priviliged to just go and get it done, when it can take so many of us YEARS or even worse, not AT ALL? Ugh. Touchy topic for me.... :-\
'Though all men be made of one metal, yet they be not cast all in one mould'

- John Lyly Euphus, The Anatomy of Light (1579)
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xXRebeccaXx

Quote from: Kyle_S on September 18, 2011, 04:51:12 PM
I have nothing wrong with what any of these people are getting done to themselves, but yeah. It does piss me off that we gotta struggle to get the things we NEED to get done, as a core of our identities....even if its the core of their identity too, why should they be so priviliged to just go and get it done, when it can take so many of us YEARS or even worse, not AT ALL? Ugh. Touchy topic for me.... :-\

The standereds of care weren't written for us, its for people who "think" they're transsexual.
Even in death, may I be triumphant.
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Darrin Scott

Quote from: xxScarlettxx on September 18, 2011, 05:29:07 PM
The standereds of care weren't written for us, its for people who "think" they're transsexual.

...and what's wrong with people who "think" they might be? Not everyone knows from a young age. For some, it's a process and for some, therapy greatly benefits them. I'm not upset or angry that I have to go to therapy to get T, surgery...etc...it's part of the process and one I'll gladly take to make sure I know what I'm doing and can work out any feelings I may have.





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Stephe

Quote from: Darrin on September 18, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
...and what's wrong with people who "think" they might be? Not everyone knows from a young age. For some, it's a process and for some, therapy greatly benefits them. I'm not upset or angry that I have to go to therapy to get T, surgery...etc...it's part of the process and one I'll gladly take to make sure I know what I'm doing and can work out any feelings I may have.

Note your post uses the word "I" six times talking about what others should have to do.

Not everyone needs professional therapy to work out their feelings on this. Some people have spent years of introspection and talked with many different people to figure themselves out. I would agree that some people (such as yourself?) do much better talking to strangers about this sort of thing, some people respond better talking with people who care about them. Some of us -knew- from the time they can remember they felt this way..

I would never say no one should ever need professional therapy, why do others try to say everyone does?
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Darrin Scott

Quote from: Stephe on September 18, 2011, 08:40:42 PM
Note your post uses the word "I" six times talking about what others should have to do.

Not everyone needs professional therapy to work out their feelings on this. Some people have spent years of introspection and talked with many different people to figure themselves out. I would agree that some people (such as yourself?) do much better talking to strangers about this sort of thing, some people respond better talking with people who care about them. Some of us -knew- from the time they can remember they felt this way..

I would never say no one should ever need professional therapy, why do others try to say everyone does?

Please be aware that I don't think everyone needs to see a professional. You're right, I feel more comfortable talking to people who are considered professional therapists. I was responding to the idea that the standard of care was written strictly for people who "think" they might be trans*. To me, that comment came off as a little condescending. I was saying that some people DO need to work through things with professionals, like myself. Others, like yourself? Don't and it's a little more clear to you I'm assuming. Nothing wrong with that. I just think both groups need to be respected.





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