Anyone else think this is messed up?

[tekla]

And MJ never had anything even reasonably approaching a normal life.

[xXRebeccaXx]

A horny personality?

I dont care how horny he is, He'll never see MY bedroom.

[tekla]

So, when he's not with you, who's bedroom is he looking at?

[xXRebeccaXx]

So, when he's not with you, who's bedroom is he looking at?

How would I know? He's not with me.

[Sharky]

But is there a point where mods can go too far?
Doesn't that depend on the person who is getting them?

Why do we intervene when someone wants to spend their life getting high or kill themselves, but not when they want to become another species? It's their body, there's no going too far, so they can do absolutely anything with it, right?
Well, because drugs are illegal and they kill people, and cause suicide kills people.
Exactly who is he killing?

I can assume for the same reasons that no doctor has or will do any work on him. He goes to some body mod artist.  He has done everything with no anaesthetic, since only doctors can give it.
Actually, it's because doctors can't "legally" do many of the body mods he's sought out.
See, it isn't a matter of him going to a doc and saying "I would like these face implants" and getting told no, it's a case of those implants simply being completely unavailable "outside" of body mod artists.

Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.
This is, again, an assumption.
He seems happy with his life.

You're assuming a lot about a man simply based off of his appearance.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're assuming.

Meaning, you don't know.
You don't have objective facts on which to base the assumption other than your knee jerk reactions to a man's appearance.

You don't have the qualification to call the man mentally ill and even if you did you do not have the information required to gauge his mental stability.
As such, it doesn't matter whether a man can be a cat or not nor why. You don't have a say in whether or not he's mad what so ever.

If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?

So what if drugs are illegal. Just because something isn't' legal doesn't mean it's bad. Drugs don't always kill people, there's just the risk. All surgeries run the risk of death.  Cat's next mod could kill him.  So you're allowed to do anything except kill yourself? I didn't say he was killing anyone. He also enjoys climbing trees and eating raw meat. One of those activities could kill him.

The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.

How is pretending to be a cat doesn't make you a cat, an assumption? There are a bunch of drug users that seem happy. There are truly insane people that seem happy.

No one knows everything so sometimes you have to assume. Your assumption is right, I don't have the qualifications to diagnose him as mentally ill.  I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable.  I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.

[xXRebeccaXx]

If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?

So what if drugs are illegal. Just because something isn't' legal doesn't mean it's bad. Drugs don't always kill people, there's just the risk. All surgeries run the risk of death.  Cat's next mod could kill him.  So you're allowed to do anything except kill yourself? I didn't say he was killing anyone. He also enjoys climbing trees and eating raw meat. One of those activities could kill him.

The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.

How is pretending to be a cat doesn't make you a cat, an assumption? There are a bunch of drug users that seem happy. There are truly insane people that seem happy.

No one knows everything so sometimes you have to assume. Your assumption is right, I don't have the qualifications to diagnose him as mentally ill.  I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable.  I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.

I couldn't agree more.

[~RoadToTrista~]

You are being pretty hypocritical Sharky. As long as it doesn't hurt someone else then he should have the right to do whatever he want's with his body.

[Sharky]

You are being pretty hypocritical Sharky. As long as it doesn't hurt someone else then he should have the right to do whatever he want's with his body.

How am I being hypocritical? So you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere? That there isn't a point where other people should intervene? Can no one be out of their mind and a harm to themselves?

[~RoadToTrista~]

Transsexual people can sure as hell be. We do much more than plastic surgery. We alter our body's hormone levels, get things removed, nothing that we do should be from a decision that's taken lightly. Some people could say we're worse because of that.

I'm not saying no one should intervene, but like, we shouldn't just restrict things because we're ignorant about it.

[xXRebeccaXx]

I honestly have no idea who's side to take, so im just going to leave.

[Stephe]

Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.

I guess you have never heard bigots say "A man pretending to be a woman doesn't actually make them a woman...."  And you don't thing gender transformations have some negative side effects related to them? If you want to impose limits on the cat guy, you are also making it OK for people to limit what I can do.

As far as intervention in people who wanna get high their whole life, if they aren't doing anything illegal and no one gives a crap about them, no one is going to intervene and you can't MAKE someone not spend their whole life high/drunk. I have friends who have. Suicide is only intervened if someone reaches out for help.

[Stephe]

If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?

Yes.

You know how foreign it is for most males to imagine a person would want to have their penis amputated? I bet if you asked most males "You have a choice, arms and legs or your penis" it would at the very least be a hard choice to make. 

The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.

Interesting, do you have a reference for that law? If that was true how could a plastic surgeon do that to Jocelyn Wildenstein?

  I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable.  I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.

You still don't seem to grasp what this guy has done isn't that different in some peoples eyes from a guy having himself surgically modified into a woman (or vice versa) do you?

[Stephe]

How am I being hypocritical? So you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere? That there isn't a point where other people should intervene? Can no one be out of their mind and a harm to themselves?

OK how about if some people decided a line should be drawn because THEY believe trying to change your gender is too out there and you should just stay unhappy because THEY think it's too extreme?

[xXRebeccaXx]

Im going to have nightmares tonight...

[Miniar]

If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?

If they can do so, knowing the risks and complications involved and are able to make a living as a quadruple amputee, why not?

So what if drugs are illegal. Just because something isn't' legal doesn't mean it's bad. Drugs don't always kill people, there's just the risk. All surgeries run the risk of death.  Cat's next mod could kill him.  So you're allowed to do anything except kill yourself? I didn't say he was killing anyone. He also enjoys climbing trees and eating raw meat. One of those activities could kill him.

I didn't say "all drugs kill people", I provided a reason why we consider it fine to intervene in one case where we don't intervene in others.
Personally I think that a person who makes the conscious choice of suicide, with all the facts in place, should have the right to do so. If I were diagnosed with a terminal disease that would lead to a slow and painful death, I'd like to be offered that same respect as we show house-pets and decide to go out my own terms rather than (for example) starve to death from the inside out, similarly I don't think drugs should be illegal, monitored and regulated, but not illegal.

The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.

And there's the rub.

"what is deemed normal"

You know that there's people who "deem" transsexuals as abnormal?
You know that all too often the gatekeepers of transition decide who is and who isn't "normal" and so deny treatment to people who don't fit their idea of the transgender mold treatment?

How is pretending to be a cat doesn't make you a cat, an assumption? There are a bunch of drug users that seem happy. There are truly insane people that seem happy.

Actually the assumption is "I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects"
You don't know his life. You don't know what his choices have done to his life.
The only "negative effect" you can, with any reliably, state that it has had on his life is that "you" think he's crazy.
That's it.
And unless his quality of life hangs on what you think of him, that can't even be reliably stated to be a negative effect on his life.

No one knows everything so sometimes you have to assume. Your assumption is right, I don't have the qualifications to diagnose him as mentally ill.  I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable.  I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.

Actually, you do need a degree to tell whether someone's mentally ill, you can presume or suspect or even assume, but your word is moot unless you have information to back it up. You can not say with any certainty that the man's lost his mind in any shape way or form.

People look at us, trans people, and decide that we're crazy, just like you've decided he's crazy.
I don't know him, he might very well be crazy, but it's not my place to say, nor is it yours.

How am I being hypocritical? So you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere? That there isn't a point where other people should intervene? Can no one be out of their mind and a harm to themselves?

What makes you hypocritical is that you're using the exact rhetoric for drawing the line at Cat which people use to suggest that the line should be drawn well before that (making us people who've crossed the line and then some.)

No one here is saying that Cat's in his right mind in his decision, what we're saying is that it's not something we can accurately dictate.
If Cat has a healthy, happy life, with all his mods and his beliefs, then who are we to tell him that he's wrong?

Don't like someone's choices, then don't do 'em yourself.
Simple as that.

[Stephe]

If Cat has a healthy, happy life, with all his mods and his beliefs, then who are we to tell him that he's wrong?

Don't like someone's choices, then don't do 'em yourself.

Exactly. I went to Furcon this spring. It was interesting seeing how into "being a furry" these people are. Don't really understand it but I could tell they were VERY happy being in their fur suits. Made me happy just watching them Should we draw the line there, that someone is insane for wanting to BE a furry? There are so many odd things people need to do to be happy, we have NO RIGHT to put limits on them unless they hurt some innocent person.

[dalebert]

We really would be much better off keeping insurance OUT of these procedures, at least in the US. I wonder if we wouldn't be better off without health insurance all together but that's another issue....

Great post. I often wonder if insurance as an industry would be viable if we didn't have such a screwed up legal system, so insanely litigious, and that's not just health insurance. Insurance companies with teams of high-priced lawyers seem to manage to get out of paying so often when the big bills turn up. And the little (relatively speaking) bills just keep getting higher and higher. I've heard the point that health insurance paying for regular doctor visits is like having car insurance that pays for your gas and maintenance. It's no surprise that the premiums AND the price of services skyrocket.

And so many people are in a mode of living in debt and paycheck-to-paycheck (it's our culture) that the idea of saving up money for basic care and minor emergencies and just paying a much smaller premium for catastrophic coverage like hospital stays, is just outside of their imaginations.

It makes sense to me that if a person is paying for it themselves, they shouldn't have to jump through any hoops. If you expect insurance to pay it, then obviously it needs to be a "condition" first, which understandably requires a diagnosis.

[xXRebeccaXx]

Actually, you do need a degree to tell whether someone's mentally ill, you can presume or suspect or even assume, but your word is moot unless you have information to back it up. You can not say with any certainty that the man's lost his mind in any shape way or form.

People look at us, trans people, and decide that we're crazy, just like you've decided he's crazy.
I don't know him, he might very well be crazy, but it's not my place to say, nor is it yours.

Exactly, I mean gay people in the 50's were lobotomized, so were us transpeople in the 60's and 70's.
So who are we to judge someone by the choices they've made in their life.

If you dont like what he's done to himself, then dont repeat his actions, simple as that.

[Sharky]

Transsexual people can sure as hell be. We do much more than plastic surgery. We alter our body's hormone levels, get things removed, nothing that we do should be from a decision that's taken lightly. Some people could say we're worse because of that.

I'm not saying no one should intervene, but like, we shouldn't just restrict things because we're ignorant about it.

I don't have a problem with body mods. You could say I was "modded" I used to have 6 piercings, got tattooed, stretched my ear lobes. But he takes it to a whole other level. He isn't just doing it because he thinks it looks cool, or that his body is a work of art, he really does think he is a Tiger.

I guess you have never heard bigots say "A man pretending to be a woman doesn't actually make them a woman...."  And you don't thing gender transformations have some negative side effects related to them? If you want to impose limits on the cat guy, you are also making it OK for people to limit what I can do.

As far as intervention in people who wanna get high their whole life, if they aren't doing anything illegal and no one gives a crap about them, no one is going to intervene and you can't MAKE someone not spend their whole life high/drunk. I have friends who have. Suicide is only intervened if someone reaches out for help.

I'm not saying it's ok for people to limit what you can do. You actually are a woman, it is possible for you to be a woman. It is not possible for someone to be a tiger.
If they are getting high, they probably are doing something illegal. A lot of people would give a crap and try to stop them.

You know how foreign it is for most males to imagine a person would want to have their penis amputated? I bet if you asked most males "You have a choice, arms and legs or your penis" it would at the very least be a hard choice to make. 

That's because most males are men.

Interesting, do you have a reference for that law? If that was true how could a plastic surgeon do that to Jocelyn Wildenstein?

He now travels to Phoenix, Arizona to have his surgery carried out by body modification artist Steve Hayward. Cat cannot go under the surgeon's knife because it is illegal in the United States for a medical professional to alter someone's appearance beyond what society deems normal.

This also means that Cat has to brave surgery without taking anything for the pain. In the US, only qualified doctors are licensed to administer anaesthetic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/articles/disorders/gallery/gallery_case2.shtml


I'm assuming Jocelyn Wildenstein surgeries were done slowly over a period of time and were labeled as things like lip plumping and not tiger lips.

You still don't seem to grasp what this guy has done isn't that different in some peoples eyes from a guy having himself surgically modified into a woman (or vice versa) do you?

I know some people would lump him in with transsexuals.

OK how about if some people decided a line should be drawn because THEY believe trying to change your gender is too out there and you should just stay unhappy because THEY think it's too extreme?

They think that because they are uneducated about trans issues. You can not be born with identity of a Tiger.

If they can do so, knowing the risks and complications involved and are able to make a living as a quadruple amputee, why not?

I didn't say "all drugs kill people", I provided a reason why we consider it fine to intervene in one case where we don't intervene in others.
Personally I think that a person who makes the conscious choice of suicide, with all the facts in place, should have the right to do so. If I were diagnosed with a terminal disease that would lead to a slow and painful death, I'd like to be offered that same respect as we show house-pets and decide to go out my own terms rather than (for example) starve to death from the inside out, similarly I don't think drugs should be illegal, monitored and regulated, but not illegal.

And there's the rub.

"what is deemed normal"

You know that there's people who "deem" transsexuals as abnormal?
You know that all too often the gatekeepers of transition decide who is and who isn't "normal" and so deny treatment to people who don't fit their idea of the transgender mold treatment?

Actually the assumption is "I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects"
You don't know his life. You don't know what his choices have done to his life.
The only "negative effect" you can, with any reliably, state that it has had on his life is that "you" think he's crazy.
That's it.
And unless his quality of life hangs on what you think of him, that can't even be reliably stated to be a negative effect on his life.

Actually, you do need a degree to tell whether someone's mentally ill, you can presume or suspect or even assume, but your word is moot unless you have information to back it up. You can not say with any certainty that the man's lost his mind in any shape way or form.

People look at us, trans people, and decide that we're crazy, just like you've decided he's crazy.
I don't know him, he might very well be crazy, but it's not my place to say, nor is it yours.

What makes you hypocritical is that you're using the exact rhetoric for drawing the line at Cat which people use to suggest that the line should be drawn well before that (making us people who've crossed the line and then some.)

No one here is saying that Cat's in his right mind in his decision, what we're saying is that it's not something we can accurately dictate.
If Cat has a healthy, happy life, with all his mods and his beliefs, then who are we to tell him that he's wrong?

Don't like someone's choices, then don't do 'em yourself.
Simple as that.

I was flicking through the channels the other day and started watching this talk show with an anorexic woman on it. She said she was fully aware of all the risks and complications related to her anorexia. She also mentioned that she was forced feed in a hospital. Most people seem to believe that there is a line where an obligation to save someone from themselves starts. I'm not exactly sure where this line is, but I think extreme things like transforming into a cat and becoming a quadruple amputee are crossing it. The idea is that these people are in need of help and you should try to stop them from ruining their lives.

I agree that if you are dying and suffering that you should be able to be put out of your misery. I don't think healthy people should be allowed to kill themselves. I also don't see how getting high is different than getting drunk.

Society deems what is normal and what isn't, and that's constantly changing.  I didn't make the law and I don't know where the line is drawn.

Yes I know there are people who deem transsexuals as abnormal.

I don't think doctors should be forced to perform transsexual related care if they are worried about the patient regretting it or whatever.

He said that he had a hard time finding work and a girlfriend. I imagine eating with those teeth is a challenge. Raw meat is known to be risky. I do know what he has shared.

Don't you also need a degree to declare that someone isn't mentally ill? I highly doubt I can be convinced  that a sane person would think they were a Tiger.

What I say may sound similar, but it's a completely different issue.

"But some doctors contend that Stalking Cat displays a form of body dysmorphic disorder, which affects one's perception of personal appearance to the point of obsession..... "It is possible to have a coherent view that is nonetheless detrimental to one's well-being," McGee said. "This is a patient who's being harmed by medicine in the interest of his tradition."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002441727_catman16.html

Exactly. I went to Furcon this spring. It was interesting seeing how into "being a furry" these people are. Don't really understand it but I could tell they were VERY happy being in their fur suits. Made me happy just watching them Should we draw the line there, that someone is insane for wanting to BE a furry? There are so many odd things people need to do to be happy, we have NO RIGHT to put limits on them unless they hurt some innocent person.

I don't 100% know what a furry is. Don't they just dress up like their favorite animal characters from Japanese stuff? They don't really think they are a wolf or whatever. Can that innocent person be themselves?

[Stephe]

He isn't just doing it because he thinks it looks cool, or that his body is a work of art, he really does think he is a Tiger.

I'm not saying it's ok for people to limit what you can do. You actually are a woman, it is possible for you to be a woman. It is not possible for someone to be a tiger.

You do realize a court in Texas ruled it's not possible for someone who was born male/man to ever be a female/woman? Clearly some people do NOT believe I can be a woman.

All you have done is drawn your line slightly past where some other people have accepting a TS can be a woman. At some point when someone draws a line between where you need to go to be happy and where you are now, maybe you will get how wrong you are on this.