Androgyne: gender identity or gender expression

[symempathy]

After talking with Sevan in intersex forum, I decide to open this topic to have a clearer understanding of androgyne.  I hope everyone will help me with the experience you have.

According to wikipedia, an androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society.

Although the definition says gender identity, it also mentions masculine and feminine gender roles. That sounds more like gender expression to me.

I am a genetic male, but I do have certain desires that are usually typical in a female.

Like a male, I like my deep voice, my dark eyebrows, and my masculine facial feature. However, I hate my facial hairs, my prominent trachea, and my body hairs especially pubic hairs.

I'm exercising regularly because I want my chest to be a little bigger and my abdomen to gain more muscles. That makes me feel more of a man. However, the important organ that makes a man proud in bed is what I despise. I don't like my penis. I feel embarrassed when it erects although I'm alone in my own home. I want it to be soft all the time. I also want to lose my testicles and have a vaginal orifice there. Although I don't think about losing my penis, I'm willing to lose it to have a vagina. Well, not an actual vagina because I don't want clitoris or labia minora.

Perhaps I'm androgyne without knowing it. However, what I desire to have seems to be a manifestation of my femininity. I never really think about identifying as an androgyne. Since I grew up, I have been thinking about what male or female characteristics that I want rather than what I am.
Therefore, I don't know if androgyne is about identity or expression. I hope you can share your experience with me. Thank you.

[Pica Pica]

I'm very strongly in the camp that androgyne is an identity rather than expression.

I can't see the point of androgyne if it were nothing more than an expression, would make it a waste of time and thought and effort as far as I can see, because an expression is expressing an identity, so an androgynous expression without an androgynous identity seems rather false.

This doesn't mean I don't believe in androgyne expression, because I do, but it must express something...and that something is an androgyne identity.

[ativan]

Just remember that androgynous (expression) is nothing more than a fashion statement.

You can look androgynous (expression) and not be Androgyn (Identity)

You can be Androgyn (identity) and not look androgynous (expression)

If You are Androgyn (identity) and look androgynous (expresion), you don't.

You then look androgyn (expression of identity). Which can have a look of androgynous (expression), but it isn't.

As long as you have an Androgyn identity, your expression is Androgyn.

The fashion world and eveything that goes along with it's BS has a set idea of what androgynous is, a blending of male and female.
While this may sound correct, it isn't the definition of Andgrogyn. Wikiwhatever has a lame definition.

Welcome, hang around for awhile and see what you think (as far as it being significant to your identity). Or just hang around for the fun of it.

[Sevan]

Welcome to the unicorn forest! Glad you made it over.

So in your minds eye...what would your perfect self look like/feel like/dress like? Without society to tell you what you should think or how male/female acts/looks...just you.

A tough question. Simple on the surface...but very difficult underneath. Super important though! Once you get that figured out...then it's a matter of finding out what science has come up with for options, and finding real solutions to the very real stress of gender angst/issues/disorder.

[symempathy]

Welcome to the unicorn forest! Glad you made it over.

So in your minds eye...what would your perfect self look like/feel like/dress like? Without society to tell you what you should think or how male/female acts/looks...just you.

A tough question. Simple on the surface...but very difficult underneath. Super important though! Once you get that figured out...then it's a matter of finding out what science has come up with for options, and finding real solutions to the very real stress of gender angst/issues/disorder.

What you are saying reminds me of my attraction for masculine features in an individual, not a male. There are some males who have highly masculine characteristics: bold facial hairs, large jaw, big muscles, deep voice, etc. Yet I'm not attracted to them. There are guys who have little or no facial hairs, soft skin (like that in a woman), a little overweight. Yet I'm attracted to them. Suppose that they tell me they are androgynes, I doubt that my attraction for them will change. First impression is hard to break.

I'm not American, so I can't reach the level of self esteem that American people have. Perhaps what I see is just on the surface. I can see that Americans - at least people I met - are secured with their identity. I guess that is why they don't seem to shield away their gender expression. In a romantic relationship or friendship, I don't see the difference between a woman and a feminine man. The reaction that a masculine guy has for his girlfriend and his feminine male friend doesn't seem different. Off course, that guy is only in love with the girl. What  I mean is his behavior towards his lover and his friend.

I say this because I experienced it myself. I'm not flamboyant or effeminate, but I'm soft enough that other guys generally treat me like they treat their female friends. When they have conversations with their masculine buddies, they become football players.

In another scene, I see a male and a female basketball players converse with each other like two buddies.
From what I see, it seems like masculinity is communicating with femininity and vice versa rather than a male or female is communicating with another one.


So if androgyne is like what wikipedia defines, I think it is something more like a race or ethnic group than just simple male or female. That is why I don't dare to take androgyne label yet. My masculine side is still dominant, so if I need to have an identity, I'm probably a male despise the level of my femininity manifestation. However, that is only because I was raised in a culture that conservatively associates male with masculinity and female with femininity.

Sorry for my digression. I'm not trying to make a labyrinth of identity. Perhaps I should hang around this forum longer to see the fun of it.

[ativan]

Hang around! Your welcome here. I hope you find out a little more about yourself. Here you can be you, there isn't a need to be like anyone else.
Emerald once said, "Be yourself, be genuine, and whatever gender you are will become self evident.". Good advice.

Ativan

[foosnark]

I don't particularly think of Americans as having higher self esteem than others -- arrogance maybe.

The Wikipedia quote is messy.  Identity is internal to the mind, and expression is external.  It's like asking whether someone believes in god(s) and they answer with "I have red hair."

Identity is what you feel.  Expression is what you do with it, limited by other outward factors but by far fewer rules than we usually realize.  Expression and identity are linked but not by a rigid iron bar.  If I'm feeling sad I can play the blues or a gloomy Goth song or a loud ->-bleeped-<--off rock tune or a morose flute solo or a mathematically complicated fugue or the happiest goofiest childrens' ditty or I can just sit and listen to the rain, and those are all valid expressions of my inner state.  Similarly, If I'm androgyne, I can dress however I want, act however I want, and play whatever roles I want, within somewhat reasonable limits anyway, and those are all valid expressions if they're genuine.

[mimpi]

Firstly please not let us equate anyone with their national government and its practices. Americans included

As for the gender identity/gender expression in regards to Androgyne they really are separate entities as I see it. My gender expression maybe androgyne but my gender identity is very female. Think that may go for most people wherever they happen to lie on the two spectrums, for some of course they may coincide but statistically they may well be a minority.

Live and let live, the important is to try to be happy and make others happy too.

[tekla]

Firstly please not let us equate anyone with their national government and its practices. Americans included

Yeah, because you wouldn't want to hold anyone in a democratic nation responsible for the government they elect or anything.

[mimpi]

Generally in most democratic nations the percentage of the population as a whole that have voted for a government tend to be a minority and a significant one at that. UK's present PM got 36% of the votes and was voted for by 17% of the UK population. 83% of the population didn't vote for him but we're still stuck with him!

[symempathy]

Firstly please not let us equate anyone with their national government and its practices. Americans included

As for the gender identity/gender expression in regards to Androgyne they really are separate entities as I see it. My gender expression maybe androgyne but my gender identity is very female. Think that may go for most people wherever they happen to lie on the two spectrums, for some of course they may coincide but statistically they may well be a minority.

Live and let live, the important is to try to be happy and make others happy too.

This saying of yours is eye opening. Unlike you and others, I mess up with identity and expression. Now what you are saying makes it quite clear to me.

What I say about Americans having high self esteem is only my observation. I didn't mean to stir racial issues. I don't go out much, and I stay home or go to college most of the time, so whatever I see happens in school. Caucasian students seem very confident in their gender expression. I don't know how they identify themselves, but they are not embarrassed expressing who they are, and they seem very happy about it. I wish I could be like them.

[Taka]

i usually don't express gender at all. i gave up on that a long time ago because my personality, gender assigned at birth, and people's expectations can't seem to overlap at all. some times they intersect slightly, but that's all. so now i just try my best to express myself

androgyne is an identity to me. i found it not too long ago when i was going through a major identity crisis, trying to decide on whether i am male or female. my problem was that i couldn't decide on either one of them, no matter which one i choose i feel like i'm lying. finding that 3rd choice really put my mind at ease

[Shana A]

For me, Androgyne is primarily related to identity, how I feel inside. My gender is neither male or female. How one chooses to express their gender outwardly can also be an important aspect for some androgynes, whether it be clothing, HRT or surgeries. In a perfect world I'd express my gender way more femme all the time, however I also like to eat and pay my mortgage so I do what I must to keep work.

Z