Difference between androgyne *Identity* and androgynous *expression*

[helen2010]

Interesting thread.  Apologies in advance for the ramble but my journey is similar to many who have posted on this thread.

First my sense of identity continues to evolve.  ATM I am non binary but still present as male albeit with increasing androgynous or feminine elements.   I once considered myself a cross dresser and quite frankly was frustrated and puzzled by the need to dress 100%.  As Julia Erin said having to do the head to toe thing just felt like an artifice, a costume.

Then I was diagnosed TG and started hrt.   This was transformational and I rushed into FFS.   (Perhaps if. I had had Shantel's perspective this is something I may have delayed or avoided entirely).   Luckily my surgeon and I specified an androgynous outcome so I guess that FAS would be more accurate than FFS

Started the hair removal.  Finally clearing my face after 130 hrs of galvanic,  66 hrs of thermolysis and 7 full body ipl plus additional back treatments.

Hair growing longer and grooming eye brows and nails.   Dressing with a little more colour and style.

Still quite heavy due to athletics background, T and large frame.  I suspect that a focused diet would be a significant next step in my transformation but have yet to commit to this.

The above is presentational, each step is small but has been significant to me.  I have flexed low dose hrt to reflect my inner journey which shifted from the classic MTF binary transformation to MTA or MTNB

Internally the hrt, many hours of therapy, reading and discussion has led me along a path of seeking self understanding, authentic expression and conscious exploration, all within a marriage of nearly 30 years, a conservative (read largely military) family and a history of phlegmatism.  With hindsight I can see why I chose a military career, dangerous hobbies and the 'strong, silent type' persona as it protected me and hid me from those that may otherwise have seen that I was not a binary male, and was in fact just a very good actor and a full time fraud.

I now see my path as leading me to seek access to the fullest possible arrange of human attributes, emotions and expressions whether they have gender connotations or not.  I have shared this with selected family, friends and colleagues and received nothing but support and love. 

Being able to fluidly, authentically  and appropriately (for the situation and for me) express myself is my goal.  I suspect that this will likely cause me to present as more androgynous but it could lead me towards a more GQ presentation.  This does not mean that I don't see MTF as an option but that MTF currently feels to me, to be sub optimal, a compromise and surrendering to binary thinking and pressure.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Shantel]

I could parrot much of what Aisla said in terms of my own life and experience, all that had gone before in life was the crucible, hammer and anvil that made me who I am today, these are the things that make us all uniquely different and yet similar in this forum. And though I have opted for more color and style in my own life as opposed to the former drabness of strictly standard male presentation I would no more cast away the love of my life going on 45 years or my connection to extended family and a few very close friends than commit suicide. I can't speak for those that trash their entire past and hide their former history as if it never existed, nor will I condemn them for it, we are all so uniquely different internally and externally with different values and sense of connectedness and obligation to ourselves and others, so that I can't say what is right and what is wrong for others. Initially I had been moving at warp speed to full transition but an internal signal said NO! I made it half way there and after a lengthy time of introspection I came to the conclusion that this place is a composite of the best there is and I am at peace with that and with the One who made me.

[helen2010]

Shantel

We seem to have been following parallel paths.  You have highlighted a significant factor which I did not include in my post - socialisation or life experience/investment and evolving identity, perhaps because many (and I include myself) often see acknowledging one's past as a constraint or disabling factor re realising your dream and future.

As you have pointed out, we are however, products of our dreams, genes, family, formative experiences/events etc.  Much as I worked towards constructing a clean break from my past and starting afresh, I failed.  I had invested too much in family, career and community to walk away/damage/reject this asset. 

Realising this, was a cause for much introspection and much over think.  Did this mean that I was burdened, compromised or damaged by my past?  Or was I blessed by my past?   One thing that I have learned, and there hasn't been a lot, is that language is critical and integrating life experience and interpreting it positively is a strong enabler.  I therefore chose to see my past as a blessing.  I saw my behavior as appropriate rather than selfish or selfless, I saw that there was much that I could take forward and there was much that I could add and I could enhance.

Low dose hrt has produced a step change in my psychological health (no more dysphoria ).  Consciously owning and choosing a non binary presentation and identity has been a very powerful, empowering and affirming decision and statement.  I am no longer at the mercy of my past life or social forces, I can plot my course with confidence and take a journey which maximises the opportunity for personal growth and expression.

Aisla

[Shantel]

Right on Aisla, we're on the same trajectory hon! I've had enough misery in my own life than to create more for myself and those I love and care for when just a little fine tuning is sufficient.

[Satinjoy]

Good heavens you folks are brilliant.

Fascinating.  Did you sacrifice the mtf for your wives or realize it was off your center?  Both for me, but there was something not quite right with the mtf part for me anyway.  Doesnt click.  Yet physically and prefered clothing, even if hidden, fully mtf.  Lately I want to push, but that boundary was set and resolved and accepted a month ago.  An annoyance, nothing more, that I cannot fully transition around my girl.  She cant handle it.

We need these enduring marrage successes so bad on this site.

I can control expression, but not the core identity, that I have to embrace instead.

[Shantel]

Good heavens you folks are brilliant.

Fascinating.  Did you sacrifice the mtf for your wives or realize it was off your center?  Both for me, but there was something not quite right with the mtf part for me anyway.  Doesnt click.  Yet physically and prefered clothing, even if hidden, fully mtf.  Lately I want to push, but that boundary was set and resolved and accepted a month ago.  An annoyance, nothing more, that I cannot fully transition around my girl.  She cant handle it.

We need these enduring marrage successes so bad on this site.

I can control expression, but not the core identity, that I have to embrace instead.

I just addressed a lot of this in Alpha male expression, going to check out for the evening and spend some time with the sweetie here.

[luna nyan]

I can control expression, but not the core identity, that I have to embrace instead.

Nicely put.

I am non-transitioning sacrificing that portion of myself for the sake of my family.  In addition, what's around now for treatment, though quite impressive, isn't there for me.  Financially, restarting my career is not an option.

So I make do with what I can, electro, low dose HRT, and making occasional noise here.  Perhaps some day I'll say stuff it all - if that day comes, I hope and pray someone will be there to catch me, because I have no idea which way I'll go.

[helen2010]

It's funny that post low dose hrt, and having lived the life of an alpha male, any less masculine expression gives me enormous relief and validation.  Yes the significant downside of a binary transition is a real deterrent,  but so is ignoring the benefit of a non binary expression which feels far more consistent with my non binary identity.  I almost feel that it would be a personal failure to choose a binary transition when I know that either binary does not capture my identity.

Aisla

[Shantel]

It's funny that post low dose hrt, and living the life of an alpha male, any less masculine expression gives me enormous relief and validation.  Yes the significant downside of a binary transition is a real deterrent,  but so is ignoring the benefit of a non binary expression which feels far more consistent with my non binary identity.  I almost feel that it would be a personal failure to choose a binary transition when I know that either binary does not capture my identity.

Aisla

Yes to this! 

Though I am on full dose female HRT and have been for years, it makes me no less non-binary in my expression or in the perceptions of others because male behavior is 90% +/- learned through socialization and 10% +/- testosterone driven, the same can be said about female behavior, which means that we will remain who we are at our core regardless. I got this from the VA endocrinologist who says there is no way to scientifically quantify those figures which are more the results of learned observation so the plus/minus factors can vary from one individual to the next. This conversation came about as he was amazed that I had no intentions of becoming a woman like all the rest of his MtF veterans do and questioned my motives as his experience up until then was working with strictly binary types.

[helen2010]

Shantel

I look forward to the day when binarism is consigned to the annals  of history.  Explaining non binarism to binarists seems to be a permanent topic of conversation.   Once explained, you can see understanding and then alarm as they consider the possibility that, often for the first time, they are not just pink or blue, that they exist on a continuum - that they have the opportunity and responsibility to explore and to express their identity

Aisla

[Shantel]

Shantel

I look forward to the day when binarism is consigned to the annals  of history.  Explaining non binarism to binarists seems to be a permanent topic of conversation.   Once explained, you can see understanding and then alarm as they consider the possibility that, often for the first time, they are not just pink or blue, that they exist on a continuum - that they have the opportunity and responsibility to explore and to express their identity

Aisla

I was on an elevator years ago in a high-rise office building in my work clothes, should have taken the service elevator. The men and women in their slick business suits seemed a bit put off, the air was thick with their stuffy insufferable arrogance. I couldn't help but muse over the thought of what would happen if everyone was suddenly naked and "poof "their clothes just disappeared. From a physical perspective this ties in to perceptions that people cling to about themselves, who they are and how they fit the binary model.

[Charr Lee]

I identify as androgyne, but my expressión is too fluid, sometimes i have an androgynous expression, other time i have a masculine or femenine expression.

Not all androgynous are androgynes and not all androgynes are androgynous

[Nightfire1972]

I had a breakthrough about Androgyne expression on night on a long walk home.

If I am wearing clothes, and I own them, then those are *MY* clothes. There is no Male or Female clothing. There is only *MY* clothing, and other people's labels of the cloth I drape over my body are other people's labels that do not concern me.

It's still hard diving into a women's section of a clothing store, and I dress more like a masculine lesbian than a woman. This doesn't keep gross men from making kissy sounds at me or think I am a prostitute, because anything with feminine features *MUST* be looking for sex from men?

I remove a lot of body hair, and I think this causes me problems at work. I assume people think I am possibly Gay because the concept of Queer would require them to think about the world in terms other than themselves, a thinking that happens when you're Queer because you have to come out of the cocoon of taught behaviours.

Having said this, I don't necessarily think it is vitally important to take on the cosmetic/asthetics of the other gender to identify as Androgyne. It is something I choose to do to celebrate myself and feel comfortable when I am not threatened by society or family.

But, being Androgyne is ultimately a state of consciousness as I have experienced it.

[✰Fairy~Wishes✰]

My gender used to be all over the place. And it some ways, it still is. I identify as a transwoman now, but I still identify as genderqueer.

I used to identify as a agender, and then I identified as an androgyne. And then I went back to identifying as agender for a while.
In some ways I feel kind of like both and androgyne and a transwoman. But really I'm a transwoman. I've discovered I was a girl all along.

But I still don't want to have a stereotypical feminine body type in all ways. I won't breasts and curves and things like that.
There are all sorts of things. Just because you identify as a gender doesn't mean you want to present in that way in all the ways.

There are female feminists and male feminists who try to go against gender stereotypes because they feel like it's important to challenge stereotypes.
Lots of feminist women like to present in a masculine fashion because they feel like it's important to be against gender stereotypes. And lots of feminist men like to present in a feminine fashion because they feel like it's important to be against gender stereotypes.

I think it's important and wonderful to challenge gender stereotypes. Gender roles are really bad. They're the worst thing. And women and men come in all different shapes and sizes!

[EchelonHunt]

A biological female body born with a birth intersex condition that led me to believe I would grow up as a boy rather than a girl - it's kind of amazing how much an enlarged penis-like clitoris changes your view on your body and mind... Believing I was a male and coming to realize I am non-binary... then realizing I originally desired to be sexless, viewing myself as a neutered male... then agender, neutered male, agender, neutered male, agender... 

Coming to accept I have feminine qualities within my identity that continue to grow stronger and stronger everyday, yet I do not desire a female body. Female(ish) voice, curves, smooth skin, smells, little to no body-hair... just no indicators of breasts or vagina. If I desired such, I would wear false breasts (a A-B cup size)... I would prefer this than to deal with these... things on my chest that are much too large.

Does having a strong leaning towards femininity negate the androgyne label...? Non-Binary is open enough as an umbrella... agender seems close but I relate to femininity, even though femininity is not a gender, it's a trait of one...? I don't know... someone said being agender means you cannot relate to femininity or masculinity at all, yet I do... I have very strong desire to gender express myself as feminine or androgynous.

Or maybe I am a female who has a not-female body...? Perhaps I am a boy who is feminine in nature and appearance, having no genitals of neither sex.

Such confusion... How to nip it in the bud...?

I am Jacey... a sexless person who enjoys dressing like a female...

[Dread_Faery]

You might be a demi-gendered individual.

[Allison Wunderland]

Judith Butler, UC Berkeley, Gender/Feminist Critical Theory ("Gender Trouble" and others) -- talks about "gender performance." In essence, we perform all the time. Some of us think about it more than others. Cis-types don't think about it much at all. Their "performance" is seamless, unaffected.

Right now I think about what I'm wearing, if it "works" -- which is gender ambig, or "unisex" . . . I dress like women, engaged in outdoor recreation, at the beach.

There's a realm "in the middle" where presentation is not altogether "obvious" -- hair to the shoulders, 6 earrings of varying "gender" depending what/how I'm doing/feeling.

Mostly I'm "authentically me." The perceptions of others is not my concern.

[Allison Wunderland]

My expression tends to be practical: I get my hair cut very short because I hate going to get my hair cut, so very short makes it take longer till I have to get it cut again. I wear jeans and sweatshirts because that's the most comfortable clothing for me; style means nothing to me. (Color is important, though; if reflects my mood or gives me some level of personal power when I lack it or lets me blend into the background when I don't want it. I select my t-shirt color "carefully.")

My presentation tends to be male. I do not have any of the typical female trappings (jewelry, make-up, feminine clothing) and hence am taken as male.

EXTENDED POST FOLLOWS -- LONG, BUT SEEMINGLY PROBATIVE -- It's turning into a dissertation!

Interesting . . . 

Ironic that there's no "cis-designation" in this post. (WHICH IS PRECISELY THE WHOLE POINT!)

Personally, we're "in the middle" -- All sorts of "female" role performance traits (cf. Judith Butler), but I choose to "straddle" and in the straddling keep open the option of integrating both sides (sex) into an authentic self.

Cis-male here, and integrated from both ends of the "hetero-normative dyad." The "style" is "Coastal Week-End Casual" -- even there's a boutique locally that uses this tag as a marketing niche. We shop Goodwill -- Hoodies, tank tops, polar fleece jacket/pullover, beach-comber pants (men's are "clam-diggers" women's "capris" -- but basically long cargo shorts), wading sandals. Lots of layering to fit the changing weather.

(Let's note here that I do indeed have a full wardrobe of frilly, lacy, dresses, skirts, under-trappings, absurd stuff I can't wear "out" but love and horde anyway.)

Added benefit is that this gear allows me to walk, hike, recreate. Practical, functional clothing. Unisex or gender ambiguous. I concede that I shop for women's stuff that fits, works and that much of this "cross-over" is politically motivated (check my signature).

I'm gonna add my email to/from Judith Butler herein (infra) --

And so, we've considered anti-androgens, bi-lateral orchi, electrolysis -- but without equivocation, no top/bottom surgery. I don't want "to become someone else." I've been me all my 67 yrs, and it seems schizo to me to think about changing "who I am." (Besides which, I'm not broken and don't need fixing.)

Endocrine systems are fussy, delicately balanced. Trying to tweak that balance into a new/different balance point is daunting in the first place, possibly fraught with all sorts of imbalance issues for me. But mostly, I'm feeling like I don't need to tweak my body to make it conform to cultural expectations regarding the "dyad." I'm most comfortable being able to move back and forth across the line.

Finasteride, HRT, bilateral-orchi . . . down-sides seem to be fat gain, strength loss, osteoporosis. Let's add to this that we're getting serious about fitness, losing weight, improving endurance/muscle tone. In the aerobic/fitness world, I'm a "quick responder" -- gain fitness rapidly from exercise. Part of this is testosterone.

Down-side of testosterone is facial hair, body hair. Male bone structure, thinning hair (mine is medi-thick, full-body, beyond my shoulders), AND, having been chronically sexually abused as a child, I don't like seeing my abuser standing naked in the mirror! Male sex drive drives me nutz, threatening, and like being on a bucking horse! I hate it!

I'd like to take the edge off the testes . . . (Finasteride), but 83% of those using it get anxious/depressed. I'm 100% service connected for anxiety/depression. But also I wonder if the psych issues are related to "loss of sex drive" and "feminization" which is entirely the whole point! Sounds like a crap shoot.

And, having spent considerable time/effort in weight loss, body fitness, I'm hesitant to tweak the hormonal balance on a body that's all tuned up and running smoothly, health issues under control (cholesterol, blood pressure, diabetes2, reflux).

Week-end beach casual -- pragmatic for recreation, and "presenting" somewhere in the middle. Clothes from both genders (unisex, ambiguous), earrings (6 ea), shoulder length hair, colored hair ties . . . 

Let me post my email to Judith Butler, and her reply

--------------------------------------------------------------
Blow me away here!

Judith Butler, Gender/Crit. Theory, UC Berkeley,   


This came up in therapy:

"Normative" suggests valorization & that accordingly, we amongst the  in-between are ipso facto not  "normal."

We are "normal" -- not dysfunctional, not pathological. We are a minority, but we are not "defective" -- & we shouldn't "need" radical, invasive, medical intervention to "fix" something not broken in the first place.

This is a cultural issue. Cis-women are permitted to "cross-dress" in male attire w/o raising issues of presentation/orientation. Cis-men not culturally permitted options to dress female on account of socio-cultural conventions.

But all this "in between" gender niche has always been a "normatve" feature going back at least to Deuteronomy -- who viewed the middle-orientation as an "abomination" -- and accordingly "not normative."

But gender diverse orientation is entirely normative. And cis-men shouldn't need to submit to radical, extreme medical intervention to fix what's not broken.

What about "Non-hetero-majoritarian"

-----

"SchizoMorphia" -- The anxious post-gender-transition epiphany that one still is who they (sic) are, but no longer who they were.

-----

67 yrs. old here.  Cis-male, Allison Wunderland on FaceBite. Disabled veteran (PTSD, gender-dysphoria), Ph.D Eng. linguistics, critical theory 1988. We need to sit in on your classroom.

☆☆☆

Name/email redacted

Text "edited" by a not-so-smart Android app.


Let's see what she thinks . . .



Dear [Allison Wunderland]

Thank you for your message.  In general, I do not reply to all the queries I get, but I am glad to reply with this one message.  I am sorry I cannot pursue a dialogue any further.

On the one hand, we argue against forms of normativity that set up one model as "normal" and demeans others as abnormal or pathological.  On the other hand, some of us want to be regarded as "within the norm of the human" that is, within the spectrum of gender and sexual possibilities.  So in the first instance, we object to restriction and hierarchy, but in the second, we ask for inclusion and the suspension of derogatory judgment. Perhaps we ask too much of terms like normativit, norms, the normal, and normalization.  IN philosophy, "normative" described positions that posit what shoudl be the case.  And yet, in most queer theory, "normative" is equated with normalization.  I think that is probably an error. Perhaps the struggle is for a "new normal" - to expand our ideas of normality.  That seems to be the desire implicit in the remarks that I have read.  I am not sure any category of identity will solve this problem.

Good luck with your reflections.

best,
Judith Butler

--------------------------------------------------


Blow me away here!

[Gewaltraud]

Believing I was a male and coming to realize I am non-binary... then realizing I originally desired to be sexless, viewing myself as a neutered male... then agender, neutered male, agender, neutered male, agender... 

Coming to accept I have feminine qualities within my identity that continue to grow stronger and stronger everyday, yet I do not desire a female body. Female(ish) voice, curves, smooth skin, smells, little to no body-hair... just no indicators of breasts or vagina. If I desired such, I would wear false breasts (a A-B cup size)... I would prefer this than to deal with these... things on my chest that are much too large.

Does having a strong leaning towards femininity negate the androgyne label...? Non-Binary is open enough as an umbrella... agender seems close but I relate to femininity, even though femininity is not a gender, it's a trait of one...? I don't know... someone said being agender means you cannot relate to femininity or masculinity at all, yet I do... I have very strong desire to gender express myself as feminine or androgynous.

Or maybe I am a female who has a not-female body...? Perhaps I am a boy who is feminine in nature and appearance, having no genitals of neither sex.

Such confusion... How to nip it in the bud...?

I am Jacey... a sexless person who enjoys dressing like a female...

I'm not intersex, but am a biological female who identifies as sexless. I like the sound of neutered* because if I have to belong to any one sex, I'd prefer it to be without genitals. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Anna-Varney Cantodea, singer and sole band member of Sopor Aeternus and the Ensemble of Shadows, but a lot of her photography and lyrical themes remind me of what you wrote. I think confusion is a part of our whole dilemma.

Despite major confusion via dreams, thoughts, fantasies, etc. I often think I should maybe want male genitals. Then I think harder and -ope, nope, no genitals, please, then it starts again from the beginning. It's enough to drive you mad! I wear whatever I feel like (usually a band shirt with whatever pants fit me at the moment), depending on weather, crocs or Docs. It's neither sex/gender-based nor does it orient itself to a specific subculture. Lots of people ask me what I am (male, female, punk, goth, band member, insane, etc.), so whatever I'm doing, I must be doing right.

[Allison Wunderland]

"Kein Gott, Kein Staat, Kein Fleischsalat"

Ich habe es so viel gern . . .

German/English online trans. (pun intended) for Fleischsalat,  is "meat salad with mayonnaise" --

I'm not "sexless" -- which might be a problematic trans. from the German. I'm sexual, but I'm not sexually active, not with other people. Not requiring or seeking a partner (I'm 67.) Sexual relations get complicated.

Gender relations are another matter. Gender is inescapable, unavoidable, ineluctable.

A lot of your physical body is going to "present" a gender for you before you make any choices about it. The rest of the "presentation" is a politically charged exercise where statements take on context and complication.

Nobody "mistakes" me for "female." -- despite my wearing a lot of "female" labels in the clothing. It's all gender neutral stuff -- except for the parts that don't show.

"Chopped meat, flesh-salad with mayonnaise" -- "Fleischsalat"

I'd like to try "genderless" -- I'd like to believe in "gender-faeries" . . .

Mostly, I like to avoid the "Fleischsalat."