Conversation with an ignorant, yet very normal, friend

[sonopoly]

Okay, so I'm not transgendered, but I am compassionate and I am trying to get informed, because I do care.  Anyway, I met with this male friend who is very interested in me, and I had told him that I'm very compassionate towards transgendered people.  He finally told me that he didn't believe that a man can be a woman or vice-versa, because of the chromosomes - a man is a man and a woman is a woman simply because of the chromosomes. At that point, I got a bit heated, because he is an intelligent person.  I did tell him, that yes, I guess biologically, a person is male or female, but that was not important.  I told him that if a person felt in their heart that they were the opposite gender than their biology suggests in every way, what does That matter??? I mean what doe a freaking chromosome mean? We don't relate to chromosomes in our real, functional, and emotional lives. I mean, why would a chromosome mean more than a person's mind, heart and soul, right?  I think he finally got it.  I hope so, at least.

[sonopoly]

I also told him that gender is within the mind, not the body. Gender is not biologically based, not that that matters. I do believe that transgendered people are biologically their chosen gender for some reason.  I still can't back that up, but I do believe it is so.

[~RoadToTrista~]

I'll speak for myself, I'm pre-hrt and a senior in high school. I have a lot of anxiety with my body. I'm very uncomfortable with my shoulder-to-hip ratio, my slightly mannish hands, my skin. I can tolerate my facial hair because I think I look better in guy mode with it, but that's also uncomfortable to have. I'm very uncomfortable sexually too. When I feel especially dysphoric I get headaches too. My dysphoria would be a lot worse if I was fully grown, and it's slowly getting worse as my body becomes more masculine.

I'm just telling you because it's not all about feminine lifestyle or whatever.

[ToriJo]

Gender is not sex.  I'll use male or female to refer to sex, man or woman to refer to gender.

That said, sex isn't black and white.  Plenty of people have chromosomes that don't match genitals and/or gonads and/or secondary sex characteristics (hair, body style, etc), etc.  Many don't even know it.  There is a reason the Olympics don't do sex verification anymore - it's something science still doesn't fully understand.

There are female women with XY chromosomes.  That is reality.  Reality isn't black and white.

If someone who had a "F" on their birth certificate, has a vagina, has a female body type, lacks facial hair, etc, can have XY chromosomes, are they suddenly a man? Are they male?  If they have had chromosomes tested and know they are XY, are they different from someone who doesn't know and assumes they must be XX?  What about someone who is XXY?

What if the gonads match the chromosomes, but the external body still is feminine?

Going one further...what if the largest sex organ in the body doesn't match the chromosomes?  Which rules - the chromosomes or the sex organs?  What if I were to say that the largest and, by far, most important sex organ is the brain - why is the brain different?

That's just sex.  As for gender, that's a whole other topic.  But sticking with sex, even that isn't black and white.

Besides, just because a person's brain and body and chromosomes all match and they live the gender most people would expect, why does that mean nobody else in the world can be different?  It's pretty arrogant and illogical to, with a sample size of one, assume that the entire world is like you!

[Catherine Sarah]

Good points you raise there sonopoly,

Perhaps you friend needs to do a bit more research in the area of chromosome abnormalities. The department of neonatal intersex at the UCLA hospital has done some amazing work. Using an electronmicroscope they have found fragments of 'Y' in an 'XX' chromosome that has resulted in some masculine presentation in a girl baby. These fragments are so small they cannot be seen under a normal microscope. They are at a molecular level, which is indeed small.

Here's an example. How clean is your drinking water? Looks pretty clean in that glass. Now put a drop under a microscope and see how clean it is. Different story when you look a bit deeper. Sure we don't relate to chromosomes on a daily base in our life, but after all they are our building blocks of who we are. Hope it's helpful in some way.

Below is a link to that organisation (UCLA), as well as a variety of gender information from Science daily.

http://www.learner.org/courses/biology/units/gender/experts/vilain.html

There are 2 categories in Science Daily of interest (1) News, under Health & Medicine there is a section of Gene Therapy and (2) Articles, Mind & Brain there is a section on Gender Differences. The rest of the site is littered with new information that too is relevant. Hope you enjoy

http://www.sciencedaily.com/

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa luv
Catherine

[spacial]

It's amazing how many people will cite chromazones and DNA, when in reality, they know very little about what either is or how these affect their stance.

Most people will claim that males have a Y chromozone while females have an X. But is this actually true? Have any of these people ever checked their facts, let alone, examined their own?

I don't mean to suggest we try to confuse people, but it's amazing how many people will casually cite their beliefs about this mysterious X chromazone as final proof that what is is.

Kinda reminds me of those people who cite certainties from the Bible to back up their claims.

[Catherine Sarah]

Yes
Yes &
No
My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

[ToriJo]

Yes
Yes &
No
My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

I'm not sure what you were responding to, but if the first "yes" was essentially indicating that males have XY chromosomes and females have XX, I'd disagree.

(talking sex, not gender)

I would agree most females have XX, and most males have XY.  But it is not universal by any means (as many of the people here would know from personal experience).

There are people with pretty much every possible combination of chromosomes and sexual organs and hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics.  Sure, in most people, these things all would be as expected based on chromosomes - but any theory that can't handle the corner cases is obviously false.  And these corner cases are real (I know several non-transsexual people who are corner cases).

In addition, you can't elevate genetics above other biological traits.  Sure, XX or XY usually indicates male or female.  But so does what type of gonads you have.  So does your secondary sex characteristics (body hair, for instance).  So do your external sex organs.  Do does the amount of different hormones in your body.  All of these are just as biological as chromosomes (or even parts of chromosomes).  And, I'd say, albeit definitely controversially, you can't ignore the brain's sex either.  While science hasn't yet come around to realizing brain sex is significant (despite having tons of theories that are very stereotype-reinforcing about differences in brains between men and women - kind of ironic, actually), science does recognize that chromosome type is not a valid method of determining if someone is male or female (it's fine for determining things within a range of probability, just like whether someone has male or female external sex organs works most of the time).

There is fascinating reading on gender verification in sports (they really mean "sex verification", but sex is a dirty word to many...), including literally hundreds of journal articles about why the simplistic systems (looking for a Y chromosome, testing hormone levels, viewing external genitalia, etc) are not accurate.  That is why you always see multi-disciplinary teams when sex verification is done in athletics - if it was as simple as what chromosomes a person had, there would be no need for the complicated process when it is done.  For this reason, most international sports generally don't verify sex anymore - because of the gray areas, which are not uncomon among athletes - for instance, in Atlnata at the 1996 Olympics, 8 women "failed" the test for a Y chromosome - in other words, they had part (or, in this case, all) of a Y chromosome - they were XY.  Further testing revealed that these people absolutely were women and were thus allowed to compete.  (they weren't trans - 7 were intersexed with AIS, one had a her gonads removed and was 5-alpha-reductase deficient; for both the AIS and 5AR-deficient people, male androgen or hormones could not affect the body biologically and they were presumably were indistinguishable externally from any other females; while intersexed, these women were also females).

[Catherine Sarah]

Sorry Slanan,

If I've caused any confusion. My 'Yes, Yes, No + apology', response was in reply to the 3 questions in Reply No. 5. I tend to agree with your first response. I just don't want to offend anyone.

My apologies if I have.

Thank you for your understanding
Catherine

[spacial]

Slanan makes some good points. But my principal concern is that so many assume a division is created by what is pressumed to be cut and dried.

As Slanan's references point out, the issues are not so cut and dried.

The differences between male and female female humans seems so obvious because that is necessary for our own biological functioning. In reality the differences are not as major as we might think. both have mamory glands, though generally more developed in one. Both begin, in early development, with similarly placed gonads, but in one these grow and eventually sit outside the body. Both have a sexually exclusive proboscis, it develops differently depending upon function.

Most people have come to accept that homosexuality is innate, principally because of its presistance, historicaly. Transgender is also presistant, though effective treatment in the form of SRS, is new. not to mention, very welcome.

I just feel that these people who attempt to cite chromosomes to emphasise their claims about others are treading on very shakey ground.

It is understood that most people are not personally drawn to being transgender. It is equally understood that most are not drawn to being homosexual. Most people are not drawn to select most other people as life time mates. (Thank heavens for that! My wife is mine, thank you very much).

These are behaviours, and like most, have many multipul factors.

We can't simply explain everything in terms of Chromazones. Though most things are undoubedly features of chromazone arrangement, even a world class expert wouldn't attempt to point to every features as having such specific causes.

We also, must strongly object to any sort of restrictions or rejections based upon specious claims about chromasomes. Social or otherwise.

And Cathrine. I take no offense with your intelegent and practical responses. I thank you for these as I do for responses from anyone. One of my visions of hell will be where everyone agrees with me. I'll be bored stiff. My next will be where I'm always or even frequently right. I'll never learn anything that way, have very little reason left to think and again be bored stiff. Unlike Woddy Alen, my brain is my number one favourite organ.

[sonopoly]

I'm sorry for not responding as the OP, but I enjoyed your thoughtful responses.  When I wrote that he was "normal", I think I really wanted to say intelligent and very educated.  I was quite surprised by his opinions, because I almost always expect intelligent and educated people to be very open and supportive of LGBT issues.  I fully expect uneducated folks to be against this group and it bothers me, but it's not a shock.  When I hear that an intelligent and educated person has these opinions, it really bothers me.

I really related to spacial's comparison to religious people who use the bible to back up their claims. I've always had an issue with that.  They don't get that MAN wrote the bible not God (if God does indeed exist).  I do think the bible is a fantastic piece of literature, but it surely isn't something that you can use as any sort of evidence of anything.