I need to voice this

[Torn1990]

Ok. I'm going to say it. I'm not calling anyone out but i see it as a trend on this forum allot; I find something seriously screwed up that us as trans women are posting pictures of (presumed) biological women as an example of how we as trans women should look. (*edit* i'm not suggesting that it's a problem that people are putting up pictures of  bio women and pretending it's themselves or just have it up in general. That's not my point! i understand discretion. i'm mostly talking about the "do i pass " thread or any threads where bio women are used as examples to criticize our own appearances in some way or another.)
I find it incredibly problematic.
We are pressing fantastic pressure on each other with those images, and i worry mostly for trans women who are young in transition, and are just joining this forum to have to feel this kind of pressure as well.
I strongly believe it encourages dysphoria of our genders.
There's a difference between posting a picture of some super model who is a (presumed) bio. woman as an example of bone structure, hair style, make up, what have you, and posting a picture of a model who is a trans woman. Or at least gender queer models.

I'm saying our goals of "passing" can be problematic, i think we need to learn to not just only be trans women who look like bio. women but trans women who feel like women and have that be the important marker of our transition.

In short: I worry that the use of cis women as examples of what one ought to be sets trans women up for disaster because it is too simple an either/or logic. Why can't we just be called and seen as women period?  My  intentions are not set out to offend anybody, but to start a conversation. It has been on my mind lately, any thoughts? 

[Cindy]

There was a similar thread a few years back asking why people didn't use their real pics instead of avatars and there are many reasons. Some people are frightened that they may be recognised and suffer from that. Some people are too nervous. Some people are worried about cyber-stalkers, and they are present on this site, unfortunately.  And others wish to keep their anonymity. All these are solid reasons.

Once you publish anything on the web it has gone to the ether for ever.

My pic is me. I'm glad to be regarded as a supermodel

Cindy

[Amy85]

Cindy brought up a number of very good reasons. The only thing I can add is that for some people their avatar is just another medium for self-expression, and is not necessarily an example of what they want to look like... or think that's what trans-women should look like.

[AbraCadabra]

I finally changed also to a comic, for some of the reasons mentioned. Also I got bored of the one and only pic I have of myself to used for an avatar.
I am a cyber-slob as it seems, have no means to get pics onto my schlep-top all by myself.

So there you go.

Axelle,
PS: I also was starting to get bored with a lot of threads here (still am), and my new pic depicts just that. Always like to hang with the truth :-)

[Cindy]

I finally changed also to a comic, for some of the reasons mentioned. Also I got bored of the one and only pic I have of myself to used for an avatar.
I am a cyber-slob as it seems, have no means to get pics onto my schlep-top all by myself.

So there you go.

Axelle,
PS: I also was starting to get bored with a lot of threads here (still am), and my new pic depicts just that. Always like to hang with the truth :-)

Axelle

I know absolutely what you mean.

I'm hanging by a thread.

Make sure we have each others emails.

When I leave I want to keep in contact with my friends.

Cindy

[Torn1990]

Axelle

I know absolutely what you mean.

I'm hanging by a thread.

Make sure we have each others emails.

When I leave I want to keep in contact with my friends.

Cindy

nono.. i understand discretion. That isn't my point.
I'm not necessarily talking about avatars, i'm mostly talking about the "do i pass thread"/"could i pass one day thread"  or other threads where presumed bio women in pictures are being used to criticize our appearances or used as examples for x y z reasons
  when  someone does put a picture up of themselves, some times we have other people posting pictures of presumed bio. women to show examples of how women are looking today or what have them. 
i think this can be a problem  and it's worth discussing. I honestly don't feel there's any reason for pictures of presumed bio. women to be anywhere on this forum.

[AbraCadabra]

Hey Torn1990,

yes, I get what you say, yet also avatars play a role in what you perceived - AND YOU ARE NOT WRONG IN WHAT YOU SAY - it's just another cyber issue that has some side effects... :-)

As for the 'do I pass' thread... I don't know, I mostly find it more embarrassing then anything else on this site.
A picture also can tell a 1000 lies, so it is pretty much of no value to me personally.
Plus sometimes if it does NOT seem to tell a lie, - it can give one a shock going from that beloved avatar(s) of the posters to the reality of their actual presentation. It's a real quandary!
We all have this need to look good (enough) and to feel accepted. To boot it's so much more of a girl thing as I mentioned earlier on.

I'm NEVER saying not to have these 'how do I look' thread(s), I just say where I stand with it, and I do see your point. It's well taken.

So some folks get out of one lie, their gender prison, and walk straight into the next cell - the 'presentation prison'... It makes me VERY sad just to take note of it, eish.

Not ALL but quite some of us, and that is what you took note of. In that sense it is very much a good thing you've been drawing our attention to it.

Thank you,
Axelle

[Sailor_Saturn]

The only thing I can add is that for some people their avatar is just another medium for self-expression, and is not necessarily an example of what they want to look like...

DING! Got it in one! That's exactly what I use my avatars for. And as soon as I'm done working on it, I'm going to replace my rune avatar (also carefully chosen as an expression) with a nice fan-picture of Sailor Saturn. Well...her civilian form, anyway. But rest assured, I don't just put up an avatar for the hell of it or to establish some sort of false ideal. Anything I put up is a reflection of me personally.

Besides, as people become more associated with this community it will become clear that those avatars that are simply borrowed photographs are not intended to represent some sort of ideal self. The young are tough, they can handle that revelation. I know, I'm young.

[JenJen2011]

I don't see anything wrong with it. The point of transition is to physically change our bodies to be more congruent with how we feel and for MTF's, it's looking like a woman. So, why not compare? Why would I want to compare myself to another trans? My goal is not to be trans but just a woman. We just have to be realistic with our expectations based on what each of us have to work.

[MarinaM]

You bring up an interesting philosophical question:
Will some of us learn to be content with "looking" trans? I think that some openly trans, "clockable" people are beautiful, and intimidatingly so. They wear their difference about them like a gown / cape (what have you), and are secure in their identity. There are some things about being trans that can be embraced, each case being different, and this is why I think that therapy or brief stints in the community can be helpful. Just a few things that kind of defy so called gender norms:

1. Many women complain about their hips not being small.
2. Many people we consider stunning have advanced bone structure.
3. Many men hate to shave.
4. Everybody worries about their body and image.

Some things are just human.

My avatars are always meant to serve my mood. When I look at the one of my baby and I, it cheers me up.

[Torn1990]

Hey Torn1990,

yes, I get what you say, yet also avatars play a role in what you perceived - AND YOU ARE NOT WRONG IN WHAT YOU SAY - it's just another cyber issue that has some side effects... :-)

As for the 'do I pass' thread... I don't know, I mostly find it more embarrassing then anything else on this site.
A picture also can tell a 1000 lies, so it is pretty much of no value to me personally.
Plus sometimes if it does NOT seem to tell a lie, - it can give one a shock going from that beloved avatar(s) of the posters to the reality of their actual presentation. It's a real quandary!
We all have this need to look good (enough) and to feel accepted. To boot it's so much more of a girl thing as I mentioned earlier on.

I'm NEVER saying not to have these 'how do I look' thread(s), I just say where I stand with it, and I do see your point. It's well taken.

So some folks get out of one lie, their gender prison, and walk straight into the next cell - the 'presentation prison'... It makes me VERY sad just to take note of it, eish.

Not ALL but quite some of us, and that is what you took note of. In that sense it is very much a good thing you've been drawing our attention to it.

Thank you,
Axelle

Exactly.
i worry there might be internalized transphobia that persists in such logics.

[pretty]

I don't really understand your reasoning...

The whole point of transition is to socially present as a cis girl, so you obviously want to look like a cis girl. Don't fool yourself, when someone doesn't pass in public, few people actually see them as a woman, even if they use proper pronouns to be nice. That's the world we live in.

It seems really silly to hide pictures of cis girls when anyone here sees them on a daily basis anyway. Any dysphoria caused by that would have already been there from daily life. At least, personally, I don't aspire to look like people who are obviously trans. I don't want to be publicly trans. I just want to be a woman, and look like one too.

If I posted in the pass thread and someone wanted to give me an example of what was hurting my passability, I certainly hope they would use a picture of a cis girl. Because that's the whole point of passing.

[Torn1990]

I don't really understand your reasoning...

The whole point of transition is to socially present as a cis girl, so you obviously want to look like a cis girl. Don't fool yourself, when someone doesn't pass in public, few people actually see them as a woman, even if they use proper pronouns to be nice. That's the world we live in.

It seems really silly to hide pictures of cis girls when anyone here sees them on a daily basis anyway. Any dysphoria caused by that would have already been there from daily life. At least, personally, I don't aspire to look like people who are obviously trans. I don't want to be publicly trans. I just want to be a woman, and look like one too.

If I posted in the pass thread and someone wanted to give me an example of what was hurting my passability, I certainly hope they would use a picture of a cis girl. Because that's the whole point of passing.

Well, i think our perspectives diverge because i see being transgender as a separate gender, even though i'm on a transition path. i think that the goal to be a cis women  is problematic especially for those transgender women who aren't privileged in the ability to pass. Don't you think that is destructive for those women? i think our concept of beauty is distorted, along with the concept of beauty in this world we live in. My perspective is a bit more revolutionary, i get that. i just think while we are going from male to female, we shouldn't go from one mask to another. i want to be accepted not as just a women, but a transgender women. It's my perspective, thank you for yours, i can see what you're talking about i just don't think it's always achievable and i worry that women who can't achieve this cis women goal wont have a safe space to enter where being and looking trans is a beautiful thing.  i feel like a women far more then I look like one at times, and I think that's what matters most in a transition process.

[pretty]

Well, i think our perspectives diverge because i see being transgender as a separate gender, even though i'm on a transition path. i think that the goal to be a cis women  is problematic especially for those transgender women who aren't privileged in the ability to pass. Don't you think that is destructive for those women? i think our concept of beauty is distorted, along with the concept of beauty in this world we live in. My perspective is a bit more revolutionary, i get that. i just think while we are going from male to female, we shouldn't go from one mask to another. i want to be accepted not as just a women, but a transgender women. It's my perspective, thank you for yours, i can see what you're talking about i just don't think it's always achievable and i worry that women who can't achieve this cis women goal wont have a safe space to enter where being and looking trans is a beautiful thing.  i feel like a women far more then I look like one at times, and I think that's what matters most in a transition process.

Well, I figure identifying as "trans" is more identifying as a third gender, there are other gender identities for that if you don't like the "F" binary that is the intent of "MTF". I guess I see "trans" as a description of a process, not an identity. "I'm transitioning" is something like "I'm undergoing chemotherapy" to me, because it is corrective. These are of course my opinions, but I do believe that this is what the term "transsexual" is intended to describe in the first place.

I don't think it's fair to say people who aspire to the standards of any normal cis woman are wearing another mask. Isn't that just repeating the layman position that an MTF can never be a real woman? That MTFs are forever relegated to "transness"?

Being and looking trans might be a beautiful thing for an androgyne or for anyone who appreciates that aesthetic. For a woman, or at least for me, it would be a curse. Accepting that as beautiful would just be settling for chimera status--it wouldn't actually be satisfying. I know self-acceptance is important, and that's a bridge to cross when I come to it if I don't always pass, but that can't change my actual goals for transitioning at all.

I think it is fair for people to opt out of being compared with cis women if they want, but I don't think it's fair to assume by default that they are aiming (or should aim) for trans standards.

[Torn1990]

Well, I figure identifying as "trans" is more identifying as a third gender, there are other gender identities for that if you don't like the "F" binary that is the intent of "MTF". I guess I see "trans" as a description of a process, not an identity. "I'm transitioning" is something like "I'm undergoing chemotherapy" to me, because it is corrective. These are of course my opinions, but I do believe that this is what the term "transsexual" is intended to describe in the first place.

I don't think it's fair to say people who aspire to the standards of any normal cis woman are wearing another mask. Isn't that just repeating the layman position that an MTF can never be a real woman? That MTFs are forever relegated to "transness"?

Being and looking trans might be a beautiful thing for an androgyne or for anyone who appreciates that aesthetic. For a woman, or at least for me, it would be a curse. Accepting that as beautiful would just be settling for chimera status--it wouldn't actually be satisfying. I know self-acceptance is important, and that's a bridge to cross when I come to it if I don't always pass, but that can't change my actual goals for transitioning at all.

I think it is fair for people to opt out of being compared with cis women if they want, but I don't think it's fair to assume by default that they are aiming (or should aim) for trans standards.

I see what you mean. I struggle with my own perspective as a trans woman, so I certainly understand. 
i don't think being and looking trans makes me any less of a woman. (i know you aren't disagreeing with that.)
i guess i want to proudly separate our crowd from cis women because cis women have been privileged to never have been confronted with questioning their gender. That is a badge i think we all should wear.
   
Also, i do not think a transition process should be "corrective" because this corrective ideology is why I brought up masks. We are women, social society has told us otherwise because of the false assignment at birth. This corrective process is just their to satisfy societies social construction. Even cis women wear masks.
When it comes to biological matters, i can understand that as well as relate to it but I still think it comes down to being a social issue. I see a transition process as making improvements, as well as going through something spiritual and self empowering not corrective for me.