Why do some MTF's act like gay men?

[Joeyboo~ :3]

Yeah.

I'm sexy.

[Miniar]

I am gonna be the first to defend Jacelyn... her points are well researched and she makes good points. It may not be what you want to hear...But that's how life is outside of the transcommunity.

She has not cited one credible, reliable source.
She has refused to even acknowledge the linked, credible, peer reviewed, scientific research that contradicts her statements.

It's not about whether or not we "want to hear" what she's saying, it's about whether or not what she's saying is factually true (since she's presenting it as factually true) and the scientific consensus on the matter is that it is not factually true, the philosophical consensus (what there is of it that exists) is that it is not factually true AND the psychological consensus on the matter (what there is of it that exists) is that it's not factually true.
Which means, insisting on saying it's factually true when all the reliable, peer reviewed, scientific research available on the matter, along with all the psychological and philosophical theorem disagrees with one's statements, is makes us either willfully ignorant/misinformed, delusional or purposely lying.

Personally, I'm going to go with the willfully ignorant/misinformed as that's the most common cause for this sort of behaviour.
We, as human beings, have a tendency to become emotionally attached to our ideas of what is or isn't true and admitting one's ideas to be false can be an incredibly difficult experience and thus, many of us fall into the trap of going further and further away from logic and reason to try and defend one's demonstrably false statements with more and more convoluted explanations just to have to avoid admitting we were wrong.
To do this we have to make the (sometimes subconscious) choice to carry on being ignorant/misinformed and this is more common that anyone among us would like to admit.

So yeah.... Zero credible research sited =/= well researched.
Convoluted and demonstrably false =/= good points.
Pointing out how/why/what is false =/= "don't want to hear".

[Miniar]

I'm interested in hard science.

As you consider yourself a philosopher I'll point out that the philosophic burden of proof always rests on the person asserting a claim.
You asserted a claim (the definition of gender and it's functions according to you) thus the burden of proof rests on you.
You've also expressed a desire for "hard science" for evidence that you're misinformed.

Thus, I have this request.

Can you provide any link to any peer reviewed, scientific research that demonstrates your asserted claim as "true" using "hard science"?
If yes, please do.
If no, can you please stop claiming to be factually correct in your statements when you can not demonstrate (prove) them to be factually true?

[cynthialee]

Personally I would not hold up the peer review process as the final word in anything.

The peer review system is full of croneyism and near nepotistism. Truely groundbreaking research is stifled if the wrong people are involved or the research might jepordise the precious held beliefs of those who sit at the top of the ivory tower.

Oh yeah...
I still think you are full of it Jacelyn.

[Keaira]

You do!!! Come to Orlando to visit!!! I promise you will have amazing time!!

I've been to Orlando once and I totally loved it there. And there are two schools there that I want to go to: Full Sail and The DAVE School.

[tekla]

Personally, I'm going to go with the willfully ignorant/misinformed as that's the most common cause for this sort of behaviour.

I'll go with that too, adding in what the good Doctor Asimov said thirty years ago, long before in internet enshrined them.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"[/i] - Isaac Asimov, column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

Adding in that it's not only the US that suffers from this anymore.

[Sailor_Saturn]

I am gonna be the first to defend Jacelyn... her points are well researched and she makes good points. It may not be what you want to hear...But that's how life is outside of the transcommunity.

Have you READ what Jacelyn has been saying, Mahsa? Let's have a review of some of the "well-researched" arguments she's made:

(a) Womens' sexual response up until age 30 is essentially non-existent, and any woman who says otherwise is a liar trying to promote her self-image.
(b) Only cis-gendered females are actual females.
(c) Perception and empiricism are the same thing.
(d) Binary dichotomy is the mechanism through which everything functions. Put more simply, there are only ever two kinds of anything. EVER.

Choose your allies more wisely.

And Jacelyn? Your arguments about psychology being a bunch of subjective bull-crap don't hold water. Do you know what a meta-study is? It's a compilation of large numbers of research data to point out generic trends therein. Hundreds and hundreds of studies' results are compiled and analyzed statistically. If those studies were all a bunch of subjective hooey, they wouldn't create any generic trend at all. In other words, you'd expect RANDOM DATA. Sorry to report for your side that meta-studies are not a bunch of bull, and careful examination of the methodology of any published work (meta-study or no) is STEP ONE of the review process. Among the things to be weeded out? Subjective, non-scientific bull-crap which doesn't actually gather a conclusion through data.

[pretty]

Oh no, somebody was wrong on the internet!!

Quick, debate squad! Win them over to your point of view! Because that's how it always ends!

[Princess of Hearts]

This thread has generated a great deal of unwanted negative energy!     I can remember a time when Susan's was a much gentler less argumentative time, has that been lost?

[winter88]

i also know some girls that act like gay guys and yell out the car window at guys but dont get accused of acting like gay guys beacuse they look like girls.

i also know some transexuals that act like gay guys but dont get accused of it cuz there so damn passable

it seems to me that the ones that get refered to as acting like gay guys are usually the ones that look kinda like guys and dont pass very well. it just proves that physical appearance is more powerful than ones mannerisms

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

When it comes to philosophical debates of this kind

It would seem East is East and West is West and never to two shall meet...

Unless one[from a Western perspective] can make sense out of non-sense=[which I might add making sense through 'non-sense' is the Buddhist approach to things] only then will one find the answer =a deeper understanding...

"Whoever sees dependent origination sees the Dharma; whoever sees the Dharma sees dependent origination !"

Back to the original question


"Why do some M2Fs act like gay men?"

In short 'spontaneity' = The quality of being spontaneous and coming from natural feelings without 'constraint'...They are just being their 'true selves' warts and all ...

Metta Zenda

[Jacelyn]

As you consider yourself a philosopher I'll point out that the philosophic burden of proof always rests on the person asserting a claim.
You asserted a claim (the definition of gender and it's functions according to you) thus the burden of proof rests on you.
You've also expressed a desire for "hard science" for evidence that you're misinformed.

You failed to understand empirical evidence is never in the form of words, gender is not material science, it is of subjective perception, it cannot be demonstrated as an objective phenomena.

Thus, I have this request.
Can you provide any link to any peer reviewed, scientific research that demonstrates your asserted claim as "true" using "hard science"?

I have mentioned I believe in hard science, but not gender science which is not hard science but of sociology, humanity and politics. Thus apparently you have not read the points I've made and just wish to argue for argument's sake only.

[xXRebeccaXx]

What could it be?

People are stupid and or annoying?

[wavy gravy]

maybe they're confused?

[winter88]

I use to be friends with another ts and I could never understand her behavior. All I know is that it reminded me of the way some gay men act.

For example, when we use to go out cruising in the car, she would roll down her window and start yelling at guys and say. "hey baby, i'm horny" or some sleazy comment like that. She was always VERY obnoxious and loud. Her mannerisms are also very exaggerated.

She flirts with almost every man she comes in contact with and has even performed oral sex to a complete stranger in front of a nightclub for the public to see.

The reason I compare her to some gay men is because I've seen a lot of them who act the same way. I don't understand how she expects people to view her as a woman acting the way she does.

What could it be?

QUE BOLAAA NINA? LOL

Ever heard the sayin you can take em out da ghetto but u cant take the ghetto out them. lol.

thats pretty much how it izzzz. for some trans girls anyhow. lol

[Joeyboo~ :3]

I actually agree with that lol.

It's depends on how you grew up, fa real~

[winter88]

I actually agree with that lol.

It's depends on how you grew up, fa real~

yea it sucks for me cuz i grew up around flamers since the age of 14. although i had a blast. i think people today can see that flamboyant-ness in my persona and voice, and i think that gives me away a great deal, im working on correcting it.

ive noticed trans girls that grow up and hang around people that are not flamboyant seem to pass really well with their mannerisms.

me on the other hand. honey i grew up in south beach miami fla wit the MISS THING DRAGGGG QUEENS...lol. nuff said!

[wavy gravy]

I use to be friends with another ts and I could never understand her behavior. All I know is that it reminded me of the way some gay men act.

For example, when we use to go out cruising in the car, she would roll down her window and start yelling at guys and say. "hey baby, i'm horny" or some sleazy comment like that. She was always VERY obnoxious and loud. Her mannerisms are also very exaggerated.

She flirts with almost every man she comes in contact with and has even performed oral sex to a complete stranger in front of a nightclub for the public to see.

The reason I compare her to some gay men is because I've seen a lot of them who act the same way. I don't understand how she expects people to view her as a woman acting the way she does.

What could it be?

maybe they're a drag drama queen? lol

[Miniar]

You failed to understand empirical evidence is never in the form of words, gender is not material science, it is of subjective perception, it cannot be demonstrated as an objective phenomena.

I have mentioned I believe in hard science, but not gender science which is not hard science but of sociology, humanity and politics. Thus apparently you have not read the points I've made and just wish to argue for argument's sake only.

Actually, I was (to be perfectly honest) hoping you would respond with this.

Since you yourself assert that gender is not a hard science, but a subjective perception, would you concede that there is no way to assert factual truth regarding gender?
If you agree that there's no way to assert factual truth regarding gender, will you refrain from asserting factual truth regarding gender?

[Jacelyn]

Since you yourself assert that gender is not a hard science, but a subjective
perception, would you concede that there is no way to assert factual truth
regarding gender?
If you agree that there's no way to assert factual truth regarding gender, will you
refrain from asserting factual truth regarding gender?
.

Such questions showed that you are confusing truth as objective perception, whereas subjective perception is not truth. Objective perception is dependence on subjective perception. Objectivity simply means the subjective perception can be replicate in one or more persons. Subjective perception is also required for empirical evidence, but in the process of communication, the evidence in the form of words is not empirical, it only become empirical when replicated subjectively in the person who required the evidence. Thus the term subjective is intimately associated with truth, whereas objectivity is not independent of subjectivity in each individual.