Why do some MTF's act like gay men?

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

I didn't depend on that to qualify myself but to demonstrate to you what is common sense differed in geography, culture and political environment. You mentioned sociological, psychological, and biological perspectives, but only the last have a scientific validity.  The other is not exact science due to their method which is lacking of definitive determination of the component of cause and effect.

Did you not get the memo that sociology and psychology are social sciences?  If we consider the two from the perspective of logical positivism and its empirical values, then they both are no longer "lacking", in your terms.  Even if we don't, to narrowly define "science" as purely "empiricism" is also constricting and limiting.

Simple answer: philosophy (of buddhism) is the actual science of perception (element of consciousness), it deal with real cause and effect components (mental factors) that can be validly determined with degree of consistent precision. Instead of having to depend on statistical data from various survey which are not cause and effect dependence, but dependence on various individual opinions. Individual who is bias due to their own psychological conditions simply clinged to their own version of the opinion, the multitude of numbers does not mean the data is more accurate, it simply mean in a region, people share a similar view. But the mass is not without flaw, for example it is due to mass influence that human committed historical crimes against humanity.

And...when we look at studies carried out in several countries, your "region-specific bias" criticism vanishes.  When we're talking about a universal human condition (the gender or lack thereof of different people), you actually have to take into account more than your own and your friends' experiences because no matter how many people you know, there is no method by which you can tell if their experiences are in any way representative of how others in the world experience gender.  That consistent precision is only true of your own perception of your own beliefs, and as such really can't be extrapolated to everyone in the world.  That would be a failure to grasp the theory of mind.

[Miniar]

Wrong, word is simply word, meaning is meaning, thus word != meaning. Words are pointers (inference) of meaning, in order to point, a combination of words and sentences are needed to reinforce a meaning stated. Meaning is not just a reference to an object, but include the reason.

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[Mahsa Tezani]

Could it be.....have you ever heard of 'trannie ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-s'? Gay men who dress up or even more for the sole purpose to attract 'butch'/'straight' men who are into T's but *not* into (gay)men?

Those gay men/sometimes turned into T's are usually overtly and blatantly sexually behaving.

I personally know one such a (very middle aged) person who's not on HRT but even had breastimplants to be more 'succesful' in attracting and processing 'straight' men in industrial quantities. Not pay but for 'fun'.

Of course she calls  herself '->-bleeped-<-' ,the 'straight' men's attention grabbing word ;-)

We're not yet educated on this very specific subject, so here's a good read. Tragic but funny.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-22/news/the-->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<-/

Ironically, I prefer gay men. I had to actually adapt myself to straight men over the years. I am doing this for myself, not because I want the "straight" man.

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

Ironically, I prefer gay men. I had to actually adapt myself to straight men over the years. I am doing this for myself, not because I want the "straight" man.

Mahsa, don't ever change.  As a favorite website of mine proclaims, you do you.

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

i have a feeling Joey is waiting for the 400th post 

[Mahsa Tezani]

Mahsa, don't ever change.  As a favorite website of mine proclaims, you do you.

Well i mean there's plenty of open minded bisexual "gays" who wouldn't mind having a long term relationship with me. Prefer that overall, to a straight guy who is either too dumb to figure out I am trans or so open minded, he should just come out as bi.

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

Well i mean there's plenty of open minded bisexual "gays" who wouldn't mind having a long term relationship with me. Prefer that overall, to a straight guy who is either too dumb to figure out I am trans or so open minded, he should just come out as bi.

I was praising you, babe.  Take the compliment. 

[JenJen2011]

My, my..What has my thread come to? Lol.

[Jacelyn]

Did you not get the memo that sociology and psychology are social sciences?  If we consider the two from the perspective of logical positivism and its empirical values, then they both are no longer "lacking", in your terms.  Even if we don't, to narrowly define "science" as purely "empiricism" is also constricting and limiting.
And...when we look at studies carried out in several countries, your "region-specific bias" criticism vanishes.  When we're talking about a universal human condition (the gender or lack thereof of different people), you actually have to take into account more than your own and your friends' experiences because no matter how many people you know, there is no method by which you can tell if their experiences are in any way representative of how others in the world experience gender.  That consistent precision is only true of your own perception of your own beliefs, and as such really can't be extrapolated to everyone in the world.  That would be a failure to grasp the theory of mind.

As mentioned, social science is not hard science, in other words it is science of culture, humanity and politics, it very much dependence on the differences of geography, culture and political environment,  these three are not static truth, but are ever evolving and conditional, thus social science merely document the result of observation of occurrences in a region and group, even if they manage to obtain the mean / average data of all regions and groups, it still didn't recognise the cause and effect relationship of various mental factors (field of perception, consciousness, and mind), as the latter is outside the scope of present science. But this field of perception, consciousness, and mind is area of specialization of philosophy and religions. Various philosophical and religions do disagree with one another, thus it is a subject that is much debated in their respective field. Your social science won't even come close to the standard required by some of these critical thinkers. It is something like comparing a kindergarden education with a doctorate thesis in the field of perception and reality. To be honest, your social science barely touches the surface.

[tekla]

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[Sailor_Saturn]

Now people are starting to catch on to what I was doing before! I'll reiterate the point by posting again:

I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari Kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!

What is my meaning, Jacelyn? ^__^

[Anatta]

Kia Ora Jacelyn,

I'm afraid you have an up hill battle when having to deal with such 'conditioned' minds...I'm sure you know what I mean, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, just stating the obvious = we are all 'conditioned' to think in a certain way which tends to bind us to a certain thought pattern-we become our thoughts...Once we understand this and decide to do something about it, only then will we become 'free thinkers' in the true sense... Instead of 'becoming' our thoughts[ both negative & positive] we observe them ...

Thought itself is the thinker and I'm sure you understand this Jacelyn...

Metta Zenda

[Mahsa Tezani]

Kia Ora Jacelyn,

I'm afraid you have an up hill battle when having to deal with such 'conditioned' minds...I'm sure you know what I mean, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, just stating the obvious = we are all 'conditioned' to think in a certain way which tends to bind us to a certain thought pattern-we become our thoughts...Once we understand this and decide to do something about it, only then will we become 'free thinkers' in the true sense... Instead of 'becoming' our thoughts[ both negative & positive] we observe them ...

Thought itself is the thinker and I'm sure you understand this Jacelyn...

Metta Zenda

For the last time... what does kia ora mean

[Princess of Hearts]

It means 'hello' etc

[Sailor_Saturn]

Zenda, just because you follow a philosophy which asserts that all views on a subject are equally worthy of consideration doesn't mean that anyone who thinks that is bogus is just closed-minded. A Confucian scholar would say you're simply refusing to rectify the names, and that your way of thinking only generates chaos and strife. They would respond to your assertion that they are conditioned to give definite meanings to everything by saying that you're conditioned to never give definite meanings to anything. In essence, they would assert that you're as conditioned as they and just aren't admitting it, instead choosing to give yourself the title "free-thinker".

Basically, they'd scream "Things are real! They have meanings and form!" and bang a teacup against the table until you admitted that there was a teacup and a table.

Not that I can't sympathize with your way of thinking. I'm particularly amused by Zhuangzi in his responses to common Confucian critiques of Taoism. But in the case of words, there are a limited number of contexts to which they can be properly applied. Jacelyn has it backwards. Possible meanings and thoughts are infinite, the words through which these things can be expressed are finite. Language is a limiting factor, like it or not.

[Mahsa Tezani]

Why do gay men act like gay men?

Science has yet to prove that phenomenon.

[Sailor_Saturn]

Why do gay men act like gay men?

Science has yet to prove that phenomenon.

Damn it, Mahsa. Stop dividing by zero!

[Anatta]

Zenda, just because you follow a philosophy which asserts that all views on a subject are equally worthy of consideration doesn't mean that anyone who thinks that is bogus is just closed-minded. A Confucian scholar would say you're simply refusing to rectify the names, and that your way of thinking only generates chaos and strife. They would respond to your assertion that they are conditioned to give definite meanings to everything by saying that you're conditioned to never give definite meanings to anything. In essence, they would assert that you're as conditioned as they and just aren't admitting it, instead choosing to give yourself the title "free-thinker".

Basically, they'd scream "Things are real! They have meanings and form!" and bang a teacup against the table until you admitted that there was a teacup and a table.

Not that I can't sympathize with your way of thinking. I'm particularly amused by Zhuangzi in his responses to common Confucian critiques of Taoism. But in the case of words, there are a limited number of contexts to which they can be properly applied. Jacelyn has it backwards. Possible meanings and thoughts are infinite, the words through which these things can be expressed are finite. Language is a limiting factor, like it or not.

Kia Ora Sailor S,

Thanks for your interesting response....However before I continue I would like to point out "Closed Minded" was your choice of 'words' ...A 'condition mind' in how I used the term  as nothing to do with the narrow closed minded nature of a 'bigot'...I was simply stating the obvious[for those who have an understanding of Buddhism and Dependent Origination/Arising ]...

"All phenomena in the world comes into being because of 'causes' and 'conditions' without them no phenomena would appear in this world and no phenomena could 'exist' in this world...Nothing has an independent existence of it's own !" All phenomena arises from causes and conditions...All phenomena disappears due to causes and conditions... Causes and conditions themselves are phenomena and they arise from other causes and conditions...What is a cause here may be seen as a phenomena there or as a condition else where...

Slightly off topic but what the hell...............

When it come to the table and teacup  and differences in philosophical 'thought'... Through observation meditation 'I' [in the conventional form] like Jacelyn am fully 'aware' of this 'conditioned' state of mind...

Things are thoughts and thoughts are things, and when it comes to the table and teacup yes they exist as a table and teacup [by name/label only], and 'only'  from the observer's side...

Without the observer observing and mentally labeling, would there still be a table and teacup ? Or just material, pieces of wood and bits of clay/china ?[even to imagine this there as to be imagination which arises in the observer etc].... To say yes, then one would have to explain how they can exist as a table and teacup[from their own side] when no one is 'observing' them...

The table and teacup's existence 'depends' on the 'conditioned thoughts' that 'arise' in the observer's 'conditioned' mind...

Free standing- unobserved, the table and teacup don't exist on their own, how can they ?

From what I gather Jacelyn's not only well educated [like yourself and many others who have joined the debate] but it would seem she is also an 'experienced' meditator-hence her approach to this topic...

I on the other hand don't have a way with words, my vocabulary is limited [even for a native English speaker]  I have what you would call a 'simple' contented mind, 
'I' like to 'think' free from clutter...

Back to topic...

Why do some M2Fs men act like gay men?

Because of cause and condition

Metta Zenda

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

I think there's an inherent problem with returning to topic because of the cissexist, heterosexist, misogynistic assumptions that the very title perpetuates.  Thus, when we're discussing assumptions about male and female sexuality and behavior, we're discussing the very validity of the topic at hand in the first place.  When we're discussing gender as it's seen through the eyes of different sciences, we're relating to the previous discussion.

[Anatta]

For the last time... what does kia ora mean

Kia Ora Mahsa,

"Kia Ora" as Happy girl mentioned is a Maori greeting Hi, Hello, G'day, it can also mean 'thanks'....

Do you know what a Maori is ?

Metta Zenda