Sex and Gender

[Jamie Nicole]

is anyone going to answer the question in the OP?

[Jamie Nicole]

allow me to be more clear and provide and clearer example:
for someone born male, that identifies as female, yet has every intention of keeping their penis, how do we explain the concept that they believe they are female?  how do we explain to a society that separates us based on genitalia?
please help me understand this

[Valeriedoeswcs]

This is a thread about biological sex. If a man is impregnated and has a child I for one do not view that as a male experience. Am I to look into his eyes with his belly grown full term, his breasts engorged and view him as male? Well when that happens, I will let you know what it was like.

There are very many beautiful women and handsome men on this site. Do I simply judge them based on their genitals, no, of course not. As folks with our condition, as folks with our transitional state, we are a blend of sex in some cases, and in others were are one or the other.

But the human population as a whole entity, aside from the exceptions, is biologically, reproductively male or female

[Annah]

to me it doesn't matter if a jelly fish gives birth to a baby boy or girl on a roller coaster in Disney World. None of that means very little to me in terms of gender expression.

What matters most to me is how that person feels about her/himself and who do they say they are.

Nosce te ipsum
Know yourself.

[Valeriedoeswcs]

We all as sentient human beings will decide for ourselves what is this or that. What makes sense in our world.

If some of the folks here view pregnant people as men go right ahead.

[eli77]

I'm not a big fan of the "female with a birth defect" argument, because the scientist in me does have to admit that yes, I was born physiologically and chromosomally under the classifications of a species-typical male and didn't seem to have a problem with that for at least some amount of time.  I can and will soon remedy the physiological-psychological disconnect, but the chromosomal one will always remain.  In the same way as an intersex person cannot cease to be intersex, I cannot ever stop being transsexual. 

I do not have a physiological-psychological disconnect, I have a brain-crotch disconnect. My brain is wired differently than it was supposed to be based on my genitals (or my genitals are arranged incorrectly based on how my brain is wired), this causes pain, ergo I perceive it as a defect (just as my migraines are a defect). I also believe that I won't stop being transsexual (specifically a transsexual female, as I was born); however, I can treat at least some of the defects caused by my condition (again, exactly like my migraines). None of that is an argument. It is a personal statement of identity.

"Decartes' mind/body divide is one the worst things to ever happen to medical science." That's an argument.

[Valeriedoeswcs]

I do not have a physiological-psychological disconnect, I have a brain-crotch disconnect. My brain is wired differently than it was supposed to be based on my genitals (or my genitals are arranged incorrectly based on how my brain is wired), this causes pain, ergo I perceive it as a defect (just as my migraines are a defect). I also believe that I won't stop being transsexual (specifically a transsexual female, as I was born); however, I can treat at least some of the defects caused by my condition (again, exactly like my migraines). None of that is an argument. It is a personal statement of identity.

"Decartes' mind/body divide is one the worst things to ever happen to medical science." That's an argument.

I love your writing and way of thinking of self and life.

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

allow me to be more clear and provide and clearer example:
for someone born male, that identifies as female, yet has every intention of keeping their penis, how do we explain the concept that they believe they are female?  how do we explain to a society that separates us based on genitalia?
please help me understand this

I mean, the only way for public perception to change is with time.  While older generations still feel more stigma against trans people of any kind, I think there's a great deal more understanding within the generations that are young adults right now.  My sister didn't even question my identity when I told her at age 12.  She simply accepted it, and overnight, I became her sister.  (Not her brother-until-sex-reassignment.)

I do not have a physiological-psychological disconnect, I have a brain-crotch disconnect. My brain is wired differently than it was supposed to be based on my genitals (or my genitals are arranged incorrectly based on how my brain is wired), this causes pain, ergo I perceive it as a defect (just as my migraines are a defect). I also believe that I won't stop being transsexual (specifically a transsexual female, as I was born); however, I can treat at least some of the defects caused by my condition (again, exactly like my migraines). None of that is an argument. It is a personal statement of identity.

"Decartes' mind/body divide is one the worst things to ever happen to medical science." That's an argument.

I've seen the studies regarding bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) sexual dimorphism, and the evidence certainly supports a neurobiological model for transsexuality, but I'm not entirely convinced.  The correlation could be indicative of a common cause of the two, or it even could be the reverse: that transsexuality causes biological sex-atypical bed nucleus synaptic connections.

I definitely agree with you on the latter half, though, even if I'd word it a little different personally.  I see the aspects of my chromosomal and current anatomical sex to be functionally normal, but because they cause me psychological distress, I believe that their removal will lead to greater happiness.

In terms of identity, I'm a female.  I don't think that the pathologization of transsexuality helps us as a community, so to call it a "birth defect", even in a way that asserts our identified sex, I see as potentially harmful for the image of the trans* community.  Gender variance happens, and it should be accepted as an alternative to species-typical gender conformity.

[Valeriedoeswcs]

Gender variance happens, and it should be accepted as an alternative to species-typical gender conformity.

I think this is what everyone has been saying all along. Yet some of us are penalized, mocked, shunned, smited, put down, denigrated and told just to stfu for saying the exact same thing.

At least its what Ive been saying. There is gender variance while at the same time there is species typical gender conformity in the population when taken as a whole of some billions. Variance does happen and should be accepted without a doubt, but it is not the rule considering the entire population of the planet. And expecting that entire population to change based on those variances is unrealistic.

But if it makes people feel better to smite and ban, then smite and ban away.

[Valeriedoeswcs]

Thank you, Val. But honestly, Rebekah is a decade younger than me, and probably twice as smart as me.

Yes, we have to recognize brilliance. Cheers to you both.

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

The discrepancies in my body cause me (though it's somewhat better now) to feel nauseous, like I am going to throw up. The stress of trying (and failing) at pretending to be a bloke produced migraines. The anorexia, insomnia, cutting, and suicide attempts were all physical damage to my body. Being on testosterone directly impacts my mental functioning - depression, apathy, anxiety, strange outbursts of rage and irritation. There is no wall between the physiological and the psychological. My anatomical sex was not functioning normally.

And it's MY birth defect. I don't feel anyone else needs to identify that way. And if me identifying that way is negatively effecting other trans folk then we get back to other really stupid ->-bleeped-<- about non-ops and etc. Please lets not go there. Nobody should subordinate their identity to "the trans* community." How about I promise to keep my story out of the media, good enough?

Obviously, I support the decision of anyone to self-identify however they want, because their individuality is worth more than "image", whatever messed up concept that is that we have to be "well-behaved" so that one "lapse" doesn't cause transphobia to persist, so if you see it as your birth defect, then your birth defect it is, and I'll classify the way I feel in my own way.

(No seriously, you raise a good point.  We don't need to pay homage to the trans* community for any reason.)

But your last line I entirely agree with. I'm just not sure it describes me very well. Gender doesn't really mean much to me: I'd be entirely comfortable in a non-gendered society, probably more comfortable than I am in this one. My "trans-ness" is exclusively in regards to my body and how my body is perceived.

Hm.  I'm not sure where you're getting the suggestion you bring up, because the same is true for me; in the same way that I feel uncomfortable with male gender roles, I don't like being pigeonholed into female gender roles because my sexual identity is female.

Thank you, Val. But honestly, Rebekah is a decade younger than me, and probably twice as smart as me.

Flattery!  You're quite kind, but it's mostly that passion regarding an issue drives me to learn.  There are other fields where I know nothing! >_>

[ByeBye]

Another reason why true transsexual and transgender are different things. Transgender girls just act like girls and try to get away with looking like one. Transgender girls' gender is female but their body stays male. True transsexuals on the other hand have gender as female and sex becomes female too. The term transgender means to change "gender" or sex of personality and the term transsexual means to change sex of body. I feel like I'm on the wrong board and I am looking for people who suffer from Harry Benjamin Syndrome.

[Annah]

Another reason why true transsexual and transgender are different things. Transgender girls just act like girls and try to get away with looking like one. Transgender girls' gender is female but their body stays male. True transsexuals on the other hand have gender as female and sex becomes female too. The term transgender means to change "gender" or sex of personality and the term transsexual means to change sex of body. I feel like I'm on the wrong board and I am looking for people who suffer from Harry Benjamin Syndrome.

the word transgender and transsexual can mean different things to different people.  No one word is longer the correct way of saying something to define someone else.

For example, my doctors and I use "transgender" because I went from one gender presentation to another. I do not use "transsexual" because transsexual can often times be connotative to sexuality in which it is not for me because my sexuality stayed absolutely the same. Nothing "transed" over.

What I mean by this is someone will say ok...."homosexual = sexually attracted to same sex" "Heterosexual = sexually attracted to different sex" "Asexual = No real attraction to any sex" and "pansexual = attracted to any form of sexual attraction."

So if I went off of these terms, then someone can easily construe "Transsexual = attracted to a crossing sex." Which can be confusing to laity.

Also, the United Kingdom uses the word "Transgender" in most of their articles and books when dealing with your version of "transsexual."

It's just a label. To try to clearly define one over another will never ever work. Because no matter how much evidence you have to support one word, another person can come up with the same evidence for the other.

Same goes for sexual reassignment surgery versus gender confirmation surgery. The two words are basically describing the same procedure. It is how you, personally, see the phrase and how it is important to you that matters.
Whenever I am approached and they ask what I am, I simply tell them "I am female."

[Valeriedoeswcs]

Haha. Excuse me for a moment, I just noticed something. Some people's smites just wont stick. How does that work? ...its too funny. Some people really are saints and walk on water, very cool.

Okay, back to regular programming...

I disagree that transsexuality is simply a label. It is a diagnosis. Here are some snippets from the Medical Necessity Statement from WPATH.

WPATH - Medical Neccesity Statement

<SNIP>
Gender Identity Disorder (GID), more commonly known as transsexualism, is a condition recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, (DSM-IV, 1994, and DSM-IV-TR, 2000), published by the American Psychiatric Association. Transsexualism is also recognized in the ICD Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders, tenth revision, as endorsed by the Forty-third World Health Assembly in May 1990, and came into use in WHO Member States as of 1994.

<SNIP>
The criteria listed for Gender Identity Disorders (GID) (at F.64) including transsexualism (at F.64.0) are descriptive of many people who experience dissonance between their sex as assigned at birth and their gender identity, which is developed in early childhood and understood to be firmly established by age 4,[1]  though for some transgender individuals, gender identity may remain somewhat fluid for many years. The ICD 10 descriptive criteria were developed to aid in diagnosis and treatment to alleviate the clinically significant distress and impairment known as gender dysphoria that is often associated with transsexualism.

<SNIP>
The current Board of Directors of the WPATH herewith expresses its conviction that sex (gender) reassignment, properly indicated and performed as provided by the Standards of Care, has proven to be beneficial and effective in the treatment of individuals with transsexualism, gender identity disorder, and/or gender dysphoria. Sex reassignment plays an undisputed role in contributing toward favorable outcomes, and comprises Real Life Experience, legal name and sex change on identity documents, as well as medically necessary hormone treatment, counseling, psychotherapy, and other medical procedures. Genital reconstruction is not required for social gender recognition, and such surgery should not be a prerequisite for document or record changes; the Real Life Experience component of the transition process is crucial to psychological adjustment, and is usually completed prior to any genital reconstruction, when appropriate for the patient, according to the WPATH Standards of Care. Changes to documentation are important aids to social functioning, and are a necessary component of the pre-surgical process; delay of document changes may have a deleterious impact on a patient's social integration and personal safety.

That said I identify as a woman as well, who doesnt, other than the guys? I did suffer from transsexualism which I was cured of.

[JenJen2011]

My smite should be erased as well. That person did it because I didn't agree with her opinion and wouldn't return her PMs. Lol. So childish.

[Annah]

i think that's awesome you use the term "transsexual" and you were cured of it.

I just use a different label.

[Valeriedoeswcs]

i think that's awesome you use the term "transsexual" and you were cured of it.

I just use a different label.

Why cant you acknowledge that it is a standard professional medical diagnostic term and if a different diagnostic term is used in your case then use that? What harm does that do you? Why do we have to argue?

To go back to the topic, this is a thread about biological reproductive sex hence my statements on hard penises and pregnancies.

I received a violation warning for the below quote.

Because women have vaginas, clitorises, labia, breasts, etc ...in my opinion of gender theory. They dont have hard-ons.

Just so everyone knows.  I am not disputing it publicly. Just putting it in the context of this discussion. Other people are free to make threads on masturbating with popcorn butter or penetrating their partners anally but still consider themselves women, but if I make a statement about hard-ons of my personal view of male and female bodies, its objectionable. There is a double standard in my case.

It is up to the rest of you to discuss this honestly.  I hope you do.

[Annah]

Why cant you acknowledge that it is a standard professional medical diagnostic term and if a different diagnostic term is used in your case then use that? What harm does that do you? Why do we have to argue?

I'm not arguing over it. It's valid for you to use transsexual and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it whatsoever and it is valid for me to use transgender and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Labels just isn't something that defines me so it's not a big deal to me which label is used. If I am forced to use a label then I chose to pick transgender. No one is making you chose a label for me and no one is making you to chose a label for you. So, how I see it, the argument is kinda a moot point about which one is right and which one is wrong.

It's simply whichever one you want to use.

[Sarah Louise]

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html

Community Definitons for Susans

Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

These are the accepted definitions for Susans, so TG and TS are not interchangeable here.

[Annah]

thanks