Sex and Gender

[Venus-Castina]

allow me to be more clear and provide and clearer example:
for someone born male, that identifies as female, yet has every intention of keeping their penis, how do we explain the concept that they believe they are female?  how do we explain to a society that separates us based on genitalia?

if someone claims a gender of female based on their characteristics, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly, their gender is female.......

where I have trouble understanding and comprehending is how can one claim a certain "sex" status when their genitalia is opposite the sex they are claiming and in some cases, have no interest in having the genitalia of the sex they are claiming.  can someone, anyone, help me at all in understanding this concept?

I would explain it exactly the same way as transsexuality is explained. For many people the mere idea that a gender identity can be different from ones genetic sex can be hard to understand.

To further answer your question, you need to realize that humans portray an enormous diversity in feelings and attitudes. Some people simply think different about certain concepts and as long as they do not harm others they are free to do so.
So how can anybody identify as female while keeping the male organ or vice versa?
People think differently about transition and being female. Some long for the srs above all, others find it far more important to be able to live and be accepted as a woman both professionally and socially, than to correct a small part that nobody will ever see. If I was presented the choice between a srs or by passing as a woman in public I would choose the latter without a doubt.
It can be that the person simply puts no value in their penis. If they don't hate it, if it is not in the way, if it doesn't affect their day to day life then why undergo a costly and risky invasive operation?

My apologies that this post is mainly written from a mtf point of view.

[Jacelyn]

All those labels under the transgender umbralla are indication of conditions of GID. They are conformists to the default gender binary due to biological imprints, i.e. MTF wishes to conform to cis female and FTM wishes to conform to cis male. The legal framework is based on physical (biological) characteristics, not mental. If legal framework can based mentally, it is highly subjective to abuse and manipulation of laws for criminal activities.

[Annah]

All those labels under the transgender umbralla are indication of conditions of GID. They are conformists to the default gender binary due to biological imprints, i.e. MTF wishes to conform to cis female and FTM wishes to conform to cis male. The legal framework is based on physical (biological) characteristics, not mental. If legal framework can based mentally, it is highly subjective to abuse and manipulation of laws for criminal activities.

Jacelyn, you kinda lost me half way through that explanation

[Annah]

That's rather confusing IMO although I am the queen zombie! Lol

wb

[daria]

So basically Wonderdyke knows what she's talking about.

[Morrigan]

It seems that there are overwhelming majorities promoting gender expression,
with significant points, pointing that it is sufficient for legal changes.

Counter-arguments include "rape is a concern" and "women don't have penises"

Where are all the post-op FTM's crying foul? For that matter do pre-op FTM's
complain of danger when they are in male restrooms?

I understand the whole gender vs. sex thing very well thanks to informative posters,
but I don't think these definitions were the desired answers.

[Just Kate]

I feel like eating popcorn watching this thread.

This whole thing is about validation.  Unfortunately that is something most transsexuals will not have.  There will always be someone who doesn't think of you the way you think of yourself regardless of what you've done to be perceived that way.  For some people, it is all about chromosomes, for others it is about presentation, but for what I believe is the vast majority, whether or not you are perceived as a male or female, is about the vibe you give them.  Real scientific I know.

So I say, good luck in your uphill battle.  Changing society is never easy, but the best thing we can do is be vocal, visible, and very harmless.

[Gadgett]

People are talking all this stuff about statistics "74% of TGs are more likely to rape Bambi with a 8' spiked Conan the barbarian peppermint candy cane than non tgs. Just because it's been made easier."

Well how about this? Christians are a lot more likely to legalize the beating and death of Gays than non Christians and because we allow some to get into politics "It's made easier." So should we ban anyone who is christian from running for office? Of course not. Why? because those who are like that are some of them not all of them.

People will always find ways to use laws and regulation to their immoral purposes. The idea is not to create these laws just cause of a few perverts. That only hurts those who need the protection the law is meant for. As a matter of fact I've known of "holy groups" who will do atrocious things like that just to scream why this law should not be passed just so those who need that protection will not get it.
We need to watch the individual, not the group.

[annette]

Hi Venus
To reply on your post about passing or srs and what to choose.
Suppose you can have both ? wouldn't you go for the srs because you're passing allready?

Last night I was in Amsterdam, seeing a show with drag queens, they were really beautiful, if you didn't know one could say these were lady's, so they should pass, they were very professional with their act.
But, proud to be a man and gay, calling "she" was not what they liked to hear, it was an act.
So, now it's gonna be complicated, looking like a lady and still want to pronounce with he.
Why? Those guys never ever wanted something to change about their genitals, never.

IMO, if one have a crave to be a woman, one wants to live as a woman with all the facts about womanhood, and that's far more than wearing cute clothes and put on the make up.
I maybe a bit blond but I don't understand why one wants to be seen and live as a woman but refuse the treatment for it, I am NOT saying they don't have the right to it, everybody should live how they want to live. I only saying I don't understand but that's from my limited binairy perspective.
Nobody sees what's between your legs? Fall in love with someone, make love and there is a slight change they will notice about it, I'm pretty sure of that.

I am really curious about your reply on this.

XX
Annette

[Cen]

I maybe a bit blond but I don't understand why one wants to be seen and live as a woman but refuse the treatment for it, I am NOT saying they don't have the right to it, everybody should live how they want to live.

There is the risk of less than desirable results, complications, and death (not to mention the huge price tag.)  It's a permanent and serious decision to make, and for those who's dysphoria is not strongly centered around their genitals it might seem unnecessary for them to live a happy life.

[Whitney]

allow me to be more clear and provide and clearer example:
for someone born male, that identifies as female, yet has every intention of keeping their penis, how do we explain the concept that they believe they are female?  how do we explain to a society that separates us based on genitalia?
please help me understand this

Why is it so critical for you to separate people into groups? Isn't that the basis of discrimination? If we want racism to go away we need to stop looking at it from the perspective that there are black people, brown people, white people, yellow people, etc. What really matters is that there are people. They have different color skin, but they also have different colored hair, and eyes, and perhaps one has freckles and one does, or one has hairy knuckles and another doesn't. People are people and separating them out into categories only provides the framework for raising individual groups above others.

Now, in the case of physiological differences I'll pull from the ever loved bathroom scenario. It's stupid. There are zero practical physiological reasons why we require bathrooms to be separate by body-type. All humans urinate and defecate; duh. Certainly women require stalls, lacking required body parts to make use of the "for-your-convenience" urinals. HOWEVER this is a trivial factor and in reality provides no detriment to a communal facility. In actuality, combining such facilities would provide an increased traffic capacity for everyone. Take for example the situation where the men's restroom goes nearly unused while the women's has a line out the door. Those facilities reserved for men are being underutilized solely for the sake of gender exclusion.

As for gender, I like to look at the entire structure of gender as a human manifestation of the preconceived roles of provider and nurturer. They are ideas of convenience and prescribe no real meaning at all. Consider for a minute what it means to be a girl, in the sense of gender and entirely disregarding physiological differences from female and male bodies. Certainly there are some things girls prefer more than boys, and vice versa. But are these preferences imbued by nature or by man? Are affinities for things, such as pink or blue, only a vestige of human intervention into the early stages of development? If a human was devoid of color entirely would they naturally fall along the "girls prefer pink and boys prefer blue" stereotype? I tend to believe they would not, that such decisions are influenced entirely by experience. At this avenue I'd like to assert that gender means nothing. It is a word we use to describe a condition that, as a condition itself, has very little meaning anymore. Most boundaries once erected between the two predominate man and woman genders have been brought down the same way we brought down the Wall; with blood, sweat, and tears.




I didn't proofread this, Captain America just finished encoding and I've been itching to watch it all day, certainly you all understand  . Sorry if parts of it seem to jump around, or make no sense at all. Hopefully I only need to swing my stick at this salacious equine once.

[justmeinoz]

I think we need to keep in mind that every description will be limited by the need to describe an idea or object in words.  No two people will derive exactly the same meaning from any word, and the word is not the thing described, just a model.
We tend to forget these points. Also definitions change over time, and from place to place.

Karen. (Who is quite into the philosophy of General Semantics.)

[wheat thins are delicious]

when I had a penis I viewed my body as male ...because well, frankly, it was. My body was that of a man.

However you viewed/view your body is one thing, but don't try to put your views of your body onto those of others.

and if you thought your gender body was male prior to surgery then that is your own personal path and convictions. However, others here view our entire being; body and soul as female regardless of a new vagina or not.

I know many transmen are are very masculine and very male who never had bottom surgery. I view them just as much a man as a cisman. Same principle goes for transwomen.

When I go out with a man or a woman I do not ask them to show me their genitals to see what gender they are. I look into their eyes and see the gender coming from their spirit, their smiles, their convictions and their stories.

This this this.

allow me to be more clear and provide and clearer example:
for someone born male, that identifies as female, yet has every intention of keeping their penis, how do we explain the concept that they believe they are female?  how do we explain to a society that separates us based on genitalia?

Honestly why does it matter?  The only way anyone will ever know what is in a person's pants is if they are told by that person.  Based on outward appearances people assume that the genitals match the gender being presented.

[VeryGnawty]

Where are all the post-op FTM's crying foul?

Because, the guys aren't stupid enough to engage in useless catfights.  And no, this is not a stereotype.  I'm not saying that girls are overly sensitive while guys are rational.  Although, it would certainly appear that way based on the amount of female presence in all of these "debate" threads.

[AbraCadabra]

Well, differences MATTER, and judgment also does.

We can try to avoid some of them, but you can not avoid ALL of them.
If we could – we'd all be dead by now.

If one can manage well e.g. live with one's BI-polar situation, why bother to do anything about it - I would agree. Just because it be not desirable to BE BI-polar? Surely not.

Now stepping out, making a spectacle of oneself, is on another page.

So, the same applies with non-op folks. If you get by well, need not look for any validation anywhere, who is to say what's up - or what you should, or should not be? (Being asexual might help though... just a thought)

Trying on these here pages to get VALIDATION for your decision (like: I LOVE my big dick, etc. etc. and now go call me a woman) is another thing yet.

No female born female would give you this sort of validation, so why look for it with post-op MtFs? Wrong place to look for this IMHO. Do your thing and go about your business? Just fine it be, - I'm sure.

If you fine, and have no issue to be who you are and look like, that's just fine, but please don't –flaunt- your decision in order to get validation. Not a good place as we have seen by now over and again.

All the fancy rhetoric will not change any of it. Be and stay who you are if it works for you. Yet looking for validation of this sort is a sign that it does not work so well for you - after all.

My 2 cents,
Axelle

[Morrigan]

I don't think any of the people who argue that they are fine with keeping their genitals,
complain that people don't accept them. I generally find those ones to already have
partners and are happy where they are. It's the lonely ones that seek to perfect their
bodies in every way.

I also wouldn't ask any non-op to consider themselves asexual, it doesn't bother me what's
between someone's legs. Maybe that's me being to accepting of a partner, but I don't see it
as such a big deal.

If you demanded a man to have a penis, most FTMs would let you down, and that's kind of
unfair, I think. If you can manage to get around such physical boundaries, I think happiness
would be easier to find.

[kelly_aus]

Haha. Excuse me for a moment, I just noticed something. Some people's smites just wont stick. How does that work? ...its too funny. Some people really are saints and walk on water, very cool.

Okay, back to regular programming...

I disagree that transsexuality is simply a label. It is a diagnosis. Here are some snippets from the Medical Necessity Statement from WPATH.

WPATH - Medical Neccesity Statement
That said I identify as a woman as well, who doesnt, other than the guys? I did suffer from transsexualism which I was cured of.

You are aware that this is a consensus formed among the members of WPATH? And that not all members of WPATH actually agree with it? My therapist and my gynaecologist are both members and one agrees and one disagrees.. One of them is a post-op woman.. Guess who doesn't agree?

[AbraCadabra]

Ah, very good, yet some more moral, exeptionalism.

Just now we can also dig up the fact the lable / notion / idea / concensus of being female and male is JUST yet just another agreement - obviously some folks over here do NOT agree with either.

Like all is a dream and NOTHING is real, hum. Sounds vaguely familiar...

So all and EVERYTHING being so fluid, it makes me wonder we can communicate at all - actually amazing.

As some Austrians would say: "Nix is fix..." (nothing is fixed :-)

Axelle

[annette]

Maybe not all of the health careworkers do agree with WPATH.
But there are also people who do not agree with the law, they steal, robbing and murdering, is that a legalisation to forget about the law and agree that everything one do is okay?
If health careworkers can't live with the standards of diagnosis or treatment, they can also work somewhere else, I heard McDonald's is looking for new employers.

[rock chick]

Morrigan,
if all is in butter (pun intended) why even bother to post here?!

I do not follow that logic. If everyone is as content as you say - we would no see those arguments of late.

Lastly, asexual... well, I speak from experience (incl. my own) and do not yet again feel like grinding my pip on this all US idealist, exceptionalist, experience.

It's getting so tedious, repetitious, and really plain boring.
Like every one and this uncle, brother, friend, etc. is SO different just to prove that everything is ever so relative, what EVER we talk about here, eish!

Um, different mind-sets, all I can say.

Hm,
Axelle

butter?