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Being transsexual is a sin?

Started by LostInTime, March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM

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Julie Marie

"I read, I studied, I prayed, and in the end, I got a sex change."

I love it!

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Chaunte

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 10, 2007, 11:38:45 AM
"I read, I studied, I prayed, and in the end, I got a sex change."

I love it!

Julie


Julie Marie,

lol!  THe first thing I thought of was Caesar's famous words: I came.  I saw.  I conquered!  Veni.  Vedi.  Vici!

Sooooo.....

Veni!  Vidi!  Quoniam mulier!

I came!  I saw!  I became a woman!
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KarenLyn

I equate being a transsexual with being beaten to within an inch of my life on a daily basis. Everyone has their breaking point. I'm pretty tolerant. I got beyond repeated suicide attempts and genital mutilation as a child. Once I found I truly had a way out I couldn't take it any more. Transitioning saved my life. I think if there is a god, it would approve.
I challenge any non-TS to the same test and see if they don't seek to escape the pain.

Karen Lyn 
    :icon_female:
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Shana A

QuoteI'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews.

Some rabbis also theorized that the meaning regarded dressing as another gender with the intent of committing a crime. I don't have a copy of it, but I've also read that it had to do with not wearing vestments of the other gender for prayer.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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ChildOfTheLight

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
Quote from: Mathew 19-12

Mathew v 19-12

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

This however seems to condone what we do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Actually, I've heard the same quote used to argue that the Bible recognizes and approves of asexuality.  In context, it seems more to refer to that, since they're talking about marriage, but I have no idea what the original said, or what "eunuch," which could reasonably refer either to someone without sexual desire or to someone who is "neither male nor female," or both (I seem to remember hearing that a disproportionate number of transsexual and transgendered people are asexual) was translated from.  Here's the context:

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"  "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?  So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."  "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"  Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.  I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."  The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."  Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

--Matthew 19:3-12, KJV
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Brianna

I spent 12 years at a Christian indoctorinization school. EVERYONE knows the Bible is the word of God, and everyone knows that the gays and the lesbians will be thrown into the lake of fire.

I fully support the damnation of all transsexuals.

Bri
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cindianna_jones

Quote from: Brianna on March 11, 2007, 11:54:51 AM
I spent 12 years at a Christian indoctorinization school. EVERYONE knows the Bible is the word of God, and everyone knows that the gays and the lesbians will be thrown into the lake of fire.

I fully support the damnation of all transsexuals.

Bri

I invite you to my open house in hell.  We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!

Cindi
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ChildOfTheLight

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 11, 2007, 02:11:23 PM
Quote from: Brianna on March 11, 2007, 11:54:51 AM
I spent 12 years at a Christian indoctorinization school. EVERYONE knows the Bible is the word of God, and everyone knows that the gays and the lesbians will be thrown into the lake of fire.

I fully support the damnation of all transsexuals.

Bri

I invite you to my open house in hell.  We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!

Cindi

Wouldn't that melt in hell?
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cindianna_jones

Quoteauthor=ChildOfTheLight link=topic=11066.msg81007#msg81007
Quote
I invite you to my open house in hell.  We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!

Cindi

Wouldn't that melt in hell?

<grin>  Na... all the hot air is going to heaven ;)

Cindi
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Brianna

Ice cream! How sinful! See you there! I'll bring my Madonna CDs.

Bri

ps- Besides. Being around a bunch of straightlaced Christians? For all eternity? THAT is my idea of hell.
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ChildOfTheLight

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 11, 2007, 02:19:27 PM
Quoteauthor=ChildOfTheLight link=topic=11066.msg81007#msg81007
Quote
I invite you to my open house in hell.  We'll be serving chocolate chip ice cream!

Cindi

Wouldn't that melt in hell?

<grin>  Na... all the hot air is going to heaven ;)

Cindi

In that case...

Brianna, God hates androgynes too, right?  ;)
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Brianna

Why not. Androgyones are going to fry too! Basically, anyone that didn't like the movie "Passion of the Christ."

Bri ;)
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Melissa

Quote from: Brianna on March 11, 2007, 02:54:14 PM
Basically, anyone that didn't like the movie "Passion of the Christ."
Yes, but what if a TS did like it?

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
No, see it was explained to me "that's different. You may have been born with this urge or feeling, but it's no different than the urge to lie, cheat or steal.
Just as taking medicine for a headache is, taking anti-depressants for depression, a person with ADD taking medication, and people with schizophenia taking anti-psychotic drugs is.  You can not physically see any of these ailments, yet many of these people are not adverse to treatment.  It's a double-standard.

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
It's evil and sinful, which is why you feel ashamed to tell people about it. Just as with all sinful impulses, with God's help, you can resist giving in to it."
This is simply a self-fullfilling prophecy.  They will harangue you about being afraid to tell them something that will cause them to harangue you.

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
They do tend to get confused about why it's OK to wear eyeglasses and such. If nothing else, it's not SINFUL to wear the glasses, but they seem pretty stuck when it comes to explaining why it's OK for them to correct how God made them. It seems like as long as the correction itself isn't sinful, you can contradict how God intended you to be.

I don't know, I don't get it, I'm just trying to understand them so I can hopefully avoid being killed for being an "abomination" and all.
There is nowhere in the bible where it explains that being a TS is a sin.  It also does not explain what a man or a woman is.  It does not say a woman has a vagina and ovaries or that a man has a penis and testicles.  I believe the equivalent of IS and TS are mentioned in the bible, but they are referred to as eunuch. 

Quote from: Matthew 19:12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

When it says somebody is born a eunuch, it is simply saying the person is IS and when it says they are made that way by men, I believe it is referring to a TS.  You can look through the entire bible about eunuchs and it talks about them being servants.  This was the custom at the time, not something that was ever commanded by the bible.  The custom now is for us to blend into society as men and women.  Nowhere in the entire bible does it ever condemn eunuchs.

Melissa
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gina_taylor

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 10, 2007, 10:38:49 AM
Quote
The Old Testement was written to install laws upon the people, and that was done before Jesus Christ was born. After Jesus Christ was born, we moved into the New Testament, for which I feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament, so what was written has no barring.

Gina,
By my understanding you are correct.  But that still doesn't stop people from using it to condemn.


You are so right there Beverly Ann. Any one can take anything from any time period and will use it whether it still holds ground or not.

Gina
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rhonda13000

Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Link

I do have a few questions though. Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin? I honestly cannot remember any references to transsexuals at all. And for those that say it was not considered, remember Ecclesiates 1:9-11 where it says there is nothing new under the sun.
[...]

Show me where it is denounced or called an abomination or ridiculed. It is not there. If you say God did not discuss it so as not to confuse people, then please tell me what is being described in Ezekial. That book is the most confusing I have ever read.

Nowhere, and I study Scripture.

But then neither is 'non-Hodgkin's lymphoma' and the etiology of the two are suspected to be the same.
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BeverlyAnn

Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 13, 2007, 06:36:41 PM
Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin?

Nowhere, and I study Scripture.
But then neither is 'non-Hodgkin's lymphoma' and the etiology of the two are suspected to be the same.

Rhonda, are you saying the causation of transsexualism and non-hodgkin's lymphoma are suspected to be the same?  If you are, please cite your source because I would love to read that.

Beverly
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rhonda13000

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on April 13, 2007, 07:30:30 PM
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 13, 2007, 06:36:41 PM
Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin?

Nowhere, and I study Scripture.
But then neither is 'non-Hodgkin's lymphoma' and the etiology of the two are suspected to be the same.

Rhonda, are you saying the causation of transsexualism and non-hodgkin's lymphoma are suspected to be the same?  If you are, please cite your source because I would love to read that.

Beverly

Here are a couple of them:

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/EDs-PWG-16jun01.htm

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/

The subject of "Endocrine Disrupters" and the ubiquity of the problem is actually scary.

It is a sobering and extensive study.   :'(
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jeri

LOL i am a sinner!!! like a major sinner! but not from being ts....

i am not religious but, i came across some religious
stuff in our defense. you might find it interesting...

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. [The Bible, John, 9:3].

"... in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." [Matthew 7:1]

AND there is this reference....

In the Hebrew scriptures, consider Deborah, the warrior, poet and judge of Israel. The eunuch in Queen Esther's court (without whom, the entire story would have fallen apart), and the role of eunuchs in the downfall of Jezebel. We have God's promise to eunuch's in Isaiah that they will have a part in the temple (something excluded by the Levitical law).
And then there is this obscure reference in a critical passage in Mark 14.:
So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."
This "man carrying a jar of water" is curious, because typically this was the exclusive work of women and children in Jesus' time (as it was in Zambia when I lived there as a missionary). I imagine it might have be more rare to witness such a man then, than being told to look for and follow a man today in a US city carrying a large flowered purse.
Why was this man carrying water? Why was he acting outside of the prescribed gender roles? It must have been rare or else the disciples could have followed any number of men instead of this one. We don't know, but it raises interesting questions.

AND there is this argument, although i would never describe myself - or any of you - as eunuchs...

The only inference one can make relates to trans women who were those eunuchs who had themselves castrated (not born eunichoid — intersex — or forced into eunuchood). Isaiah and, I believe, Jesus speak approvingly of these individuals, considering them worthy of a monument and a name "better than sons and daughters," an "everlasting name" that shall not perish (Isaiah 56:5).

so all you biblical scholars, have fun with all that. i don't own one. i just don't trust the men who did the interpretation or the translation....
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rhonda13000

Quote from: LostInTime on March 08, 2007, 05:07:05 AM
Link

I do have a few questions though. Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin? I honestly cannot remember any references to transsexuals at all. And for those that say it was not considered, remember Ecclesiates 1:9-11 where it says there is nothing new under the sun.
[...]

Show me where it is denounced or called an abomination or ridiculed. It is not there. If you say God did not discuss it so as not to confuse people, then please tell me what is being described in Ezekial. That book is the most confusing I have ever read.

I challenged two ministers and other christians of the faith [church of Christ] about the absence of categoric and unequivocal condemnation of my TS, as stated or implied by Scripture.

The two ministers never responded to me and the other christians fumbled with total misapplications of the same Scripture. Neither of these is acceptable.

The non-response of the two ministers constitutes a tacit admission of the weakness of their positions.
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cindianna_jones

God hasn't been very clear on a number of current issues in his "word" has he?  I suppose that's what you get when you have a gentile emperor put the little book together for you.

Cindi
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