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Androgynous Sex

Started by AndrewL, November 23, 2011, 12:51:31 PM

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AndrewL

   Hi, I found Susan's via the FtM transsexual sub forum. I've had many identities in my past, and acknowledge I probably will in the future as well. My gender is male and I'm happy with that. What I looking for/need is a term to describe my sex to others.
   I've started transitioning legally and medically. When I first started I thought I needed to do everything, to "fix what was wrong". However since I started T I've found I'm more comfortable in my body. I like the voice change, the hair growth and particularly the genital growth/sensation. For the first time in my life I'm happy with my groin and I like that I have both a vagina and a penis. Essentially I've realized that I can stop before surgery and be me in a body that isn't male or female but rather something between them.
   This is a great success since it allows me to be happy where I'm at and to live as who I am without chasing the moon that I now know I didn't really need. My challenge comes in as I run into people locked in the gender binary who have honest questions about gender beyond it. I like to teach about whom I am and what I've gone through but I have no term to explain my sex which makes explanations difficult.
   I find it easy to explain the line between sex and gender and to demonstrate how each is comprised of a series of spectrums with fluctuations at every level. But I don't know what term I should use for my own sex. I like intersex, but due to its link with birth conditions I don't feel it fits well with me. I was assigned to the female sex at birth based on appearance and that has never been contested. I link Androgyny with gender and a desire to be seen as someone who is both/outside the gender binary. This doesn't work since I'm male and I'm hurt when I'm misgendered. Neutrois doesn't fit because a) I can't pronounce it and b) I feel that it implies a dysphoria toward the accepted genders which also isn't accurate. I did struggle with gender dysphoria but I believe that was related more toward feeling that surgery was necessary to be male as well as not having gone through puberty with male hormones. On T and legally male there is no more dysphoria.
   So there it is. Are there any terms/definitions you all know that might fit? It's not critical I have a specific term to teach, I can always explain I haven't found the right word yet. However I would like something I can list in those few places that distinguish between sex and gender.  Any ideas?
   Thank you for your help in advance.
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insideontheoutside

Why do you need a term? I find that most of the "normal" people (those who aren't LGBT) don't know or understand all the different terms either. Hell even I didn't know wtf Neutrois is. It sounded like some mental condition when I first heard it.

I'm interested in hearing about how you're happy being "in between" though.

"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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AndrewL

I'm looking for a term so I don't have to write a paragraph to explain myself. Also, I'm curious if there is a "right" name for it. Since I started to transition I've learned a lot of different labels/terms for identity and I'm always looking to learn more to foster discussion about who we are. If your curious I mostly know about neutrois from a google search that yielded this page (http://www.neutrois.com/).

insideontheoutside, I'm going to answer your question, but it will involve graphic descriptions of anatomy, just as an fyi.

When I started to transition I felt dysphoric. I couldn't take my shirt off  and I never went near my groin. As I started T, I began to watch myself because I knew that I wanted to document my transition. At first I was watching for changes, then I realized that I liked what I was seeing. At home I became comfortable without my shirt or binder, partially because I saw it as a "male" behavior and partially because I like the shape of my breasts (small B-cup). On T I began to be interested in sex, despite having previously been asexual. I had masturbated before, but it always felt wrong and vaginal penetration was painful and disconcerting. Then one time masturbating after T I felt right trying vaginal penetration and realized that I liked it. The more I explored my in-between body the more I realized that I didn't want/need surgery to change it. Lets use my breasts for an example. My primary reason for considering breast reduction was that I wanted to be able to go outside without a shirt. But having breasts and a hairy chest suites me. The T has helped me build muscle in my upper arms, but I still retain strength/shape in my hips.

Dressed, I'm read as fully male, but I like having female parts as well. I'm blessed in that I have a penis, vagina, breasts and upper body muscles. That is so cool/amazing to me. Plus for the first time in my life I feel at home with myself. I have a strong desire to live and grow and have moved past prior thoughts of destruction. I'm strong and beautiful and that works for me. I still get frustrated when people use the wrong pronouns, but having accepted my (androgyn/intersex/neutrois) sex its easier to understand, correct politely and let it go. The parenthesis unintentionally demonstrate why I'd like a word. Androgyn/intersex/neutrois is at the same time inaccurate, wordy and the best I have to relate a sex that I'm proud of. If I can't discover another term, I might just create one since for me a name can reflect pride.

That said, I do worry about future relationships, legal matters and locker rooms. I have no earthly idea if I'll ever meet someone who can appreciate me as a man while stimulating the female organs in the manner I'm drawn to. I'm finally ready for sex, but have no idea how to go about finding a partner that is willing to explore safely with me. My solution here is to be honest and trust that there will be someone who's curious enough to be attracted to me at some point. Legally I can change my last two ID's with a hysterectomy. That said I plan to work in law enforcement and there are cases where officers are being arrested due to concerns about what they did on duty (use of force, etc.). I do worry about what would happen to me in a correctional setting if I was ever detained. Legally I'll be all male soon, but my penis is small (~2") and I don't know if it would be sufficient to keep me classified as a man, especially since I'm not going to have surgery to remove the vagina. Locker rooms I generally navigate around by changing in a stall, but I do think about how I'll handle it if I ever have to use a restroom without doors/curtains on the stalls.

Did that answer what you looking for? I do love answering questions and discussions, so if I didn't quite explain things well please let me know.
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Taka

"androgynous sex" might actually be a good term

see all kind of definitions of androgynous here, and decide for yourself if you like it
http://www.wordnik.com/words/androgynous

i for my part think it sounds better than intersex, while hermaphroditic might be an ok alternative
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Padma

If I've learned anything on this site, it's that if you do find a term to use, you'll still have to write that paragraph afterwards to explain the term, because each person means something different by it :). If you want unambiguity, you'll have to be prepared to explain. Both what you do mean by it, and what you don't mean by it.

I hope you find a label that fits you comfortably, but it is only like an outfit you try on, you don't have to wear the same label all your life.
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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AndrewL

Padma, Thanks for the advice. I know I'll probably end up writing the paragraph, but at least in my notes I can explain it once and then move on. I have accepted labels change, when I'm feeling cheeky I'll joke that at some point I've been everything in the LGBTQA spectrum at one point.

Taka, thank you for pointing me to the those definitions, it definitely helped me reshape how I view the term androgynous.

Now for the great news, I found the word!!!! Its traditionally only applied to butterflies, but it feels immediately right for me. The term is "Gynandromorph" and wikipedia defines it as "A gynandromorph is an organism that contains both male and female characteristics. The term gynandromorph, from Greek "gyne" female and "andro" male." Morph refers to a distinct form of a species. I love it because it acknowledges me as part of the human species with both female and male parts! I know I'll always have to explain it, but now I can write what my sex is in a word, even if only in my own notes. I am a male gynandromorph and that makes me so excited!

In case you're curious I found this term on a site called OMG-facts in an article about a half-male/half-female butterfly in London's Natural History Museum (http://www.omg-facts.com/view/Facts/39478). It's a cool article and I love hearing about non-binary creatures because it reinforces the fact that there are so many natural and acceptable variations to genders and sexes.

Happy thanksgiving everyone! I'm thankful that today I found the word I was looking for.
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Kinkly

If you Identify as Male and you comfortable in your body with your current level of transition then you are not required to have expensive surgery that you may not be happy with the results to be you as for a label you are Male or F2M. most Trans guys I know don't intend on having "bottom surgery"  but they are clearly male to all their friends I know that some trans people are very much that unless you have special treatments then you are a lesser trans person then someone who does but that is just Bull. with all trans treatments you should do it because it is what you need to do to feel whole and/or happy.  doing stuff for the sake of "thats what I'm suposed to do" is just silly and can lead to you feeling bad for spending time and money on something you don't want or need
I don't want to be a man there from Mars
I'd Like to be a woman Venus looks beautiful
I'm enjoying living on Pluto, but it is a bit lonely
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EmmaM

Transition is about getting to your happy place, so you should label yourself "alright." That's a good descriptor.
Loved.
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shelly

Quote from: Padma on November 24, 2011, 05:27:13 PM
If I've learned anything on this site, it's that if you do find a term to use, you'll still have to write that paragraph afterwards to explain the term, because each person means something different by it :)

Couldnt agree more Padma, myself it was important to find a group of people i could relate to, thought in my early years i was just TV, then thought i was TS,  finally came acorss Andro and thought yep thats me, however then noticed members going on about getting the Andro look, well thats not me, so maybe im not Andro after all. The longer ive spent on here however, i too have noticed that different peoples translation of Andro can vary a lot, even a large department store has came out with a range of clothes this year under the slogan of "The Androgyne look" got quite excited at first, untill i realised it was the colours of clothes themselves they were on about and not the actual style. Guess even the big stores have a different meaning to the term.
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Bishounen

Ameline: How about 'Intergender' or 'Genderqueer', then?

Wikipedia;
QuoteGenderqueer (GQ; alternatively non-binary) is a catch-all term for gender identities other than man and woman, thus outside of the gender binary and heteronormativity.[1] People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as one or more of the following:

    both man and woman (bigender, pangender);
    neither man nor woman (genderless, agender);
    moving between genders (genderfluid);[2]
    third gender or other-gendered; includes those who do not place a name to their gender;[3]
    having an overlap of, or blurred lines between, gender identity and sexual orientation.[4][5]

Some genderqueer people[6][7] also identify as transgender, and may or may not wish for physical modification or hormones to suit their preferred expression. Many genderqueer people see gender and sex as separable aspects of a person and sometimes identify as a male woman, a female man, or a male/female/intersex genderqueer person.[8] Gender identity is defined as one's internal sense of being male, female, both, or neither, while sexual identity refers to an individual's enduring physical, romantic, and/or emotional attraction to others.[9] As such, genderqueer people may be a variety of sexual orientations, as with transgender and cisgender people. Genderqueer identification may also occur for political reasons.[10][11]

"Genderqueer", in addition to being an umbrella term, has been used as an adjective to refer to any people who transgress distinctions of gender, regardless of their self-defined gender identity, i.e. those who "queer" gender, expressing it non-normatively.[12] Androgynous is frequently used as a descriptive term for people in this category, though genderqueer people may express a combination of masculinity and femininity, or neither, in their gender expression and not all identify as androgynes. However, the term has been applied by those describing what they see as a gender ambiguity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: ameline on November 24, 2011, 04:40:33 PM

insideontheoutside, I'm going to answer your question, but it will involve graphic descriptions of anatomy, just as an fyi.

When I started to transition I felt dysphoric. I couldn't take my shirt off  and I never went near my groin. As I started T, I began to watch myself because I knew that I wanted to document my transition. At first I was watching for changes, then I realized that I liked what I was seeing. At home I became comfortable without my shirt or binder, partially because I saw it as a "male" behavior and partially because I like the shape of my breasts (small B-cup). On T I began to be interested in sex, despite having previously been asexual. I had masturbated before, but it always felt wrong and vaginal penetration was painful and disconcerting. Then one time masturbating after T I felt right trying vaginal penetration and realized that I liked it. The more I explored my in-between body the more I realized that I didn't want/need surgery to change it. Lets use my breasts for an example. My primary reason for considering breast reduction was that I wanted to be able to go outside without a shirt. But having breasts and a hairy chest suites me. The T has helped me build muscle in my upper arms, but I still retain strength/shape in my hips.

Dressed, I'm read as fully male, but I like having female parts as well. I'm blessed in that I have a penis, vagina, breasts and upper body muscles. That is so cool/amazing to me. Plus for the first time in my life I feel at home with myself. I have a strong desire to live and grow and have moved past prior thoughts of destruction. I'm strong and beautiful and that works for me. I still get frustrated when people use the wrong pronouns, but having accepted my (androgyn/intersex/neutrois) sex its easier to understand, correct politely and let it go. The parenthesis unintentionally demonstrate why I'd like a word. Androgyn/intersex/neutrois is at the same time inaccurate, wordy and the best I have to relate a sex that I'm proud of. If I can't discover another term, I might just create one since for me a name can reflect pride.

That said, I do worry about future relationships, legal matters and locker rooms. I have no earthly idea if I'll ever meet someone who can appreciate me as a man while stimulating the female organs in the manner I'm drawn to. I'm finally ready for sex, but have no idea how to go about finding a partner that is willing to explore safely with me. My solution here is to be honest and trust that there will be someone who's curious enough to be attracted to me at some point. Legally I can change my last two ID's with a hysterectomy. That said I plan to work in law enforcement and there are cases where officers are being arrested due to concerns about what they did on duty (use of force, etc.). I do worry about what would happen to me in a correctional setting if I was ever detained. Legally I'll be all male soon, but my penis is small (~2") and I don't know if it would be sufficient to keep me classified as a man, especially since I'm not going to have surgery to remove the vagina. Locker rooms I generally navigate around by changing in a stall, but I do think about how I'll handle it if I ever have to use a restroom without doors/curtains on the stalls.

Did that answer what you looking for? I do love answering questions and discussions, so if I didn't quite explain things well please let me know.

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I've spent many years of my life hating the fact that I was born "in between" so to speak. I've never had a "normal" body, so of course that's all I wanted for a long time. I hate having tits. They're not even large like some people have to deal with but they do absolutely nothing for me but get in the way. I like having a dick, but it doesn't function 100% like a normal guys so that's another issue I've had to try to become ok with. Physical appearance I'm not so distraught about. My birth certificate and ID have "female" on them, so throughout my life I've had to play that part day-to-day. But I've gotten past that. I've realized I can still be myself no matter what people are calling me. And depending on how I look or how I'm dressed that can vary, even in a single day, whether people take me as male or female. It doesn't bother me really anymore. The only thing that does is the body issues. I'm kind of stuck on that. I know I can't change things physically (I'd never want to have surgery anyway for multiple reasons) so this is how it's going to be for the long run, so I'm looking for ways to just be completely comfortable with the "in between". I guess it helps to get other people's perspectives on that. I find it rare actually that someone is really comfortable with having aspects of both, physically. It seems most want it one way or the other.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Taka

gynandromorph sounds like a really cool description of your body, ameline. glad you found your term
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smooth

Hi Ameline, it sounds like your in a good place, don't let anyone try to tell you you're not. I'm in a similar place myself but from the other side of the fence and without the need to explore sex.... any more  ;) A luxury of age  :) I think it was Boy George who said  "I'd rather have a cup of Tea" Since then I think that oversight on his part might have gotten him into a little trouble  >:-)
I personally think androgyny is a state of mind and not necessarily the clothes you wear or the colours you choose. I was speaking to a MtoF just the other day and she said "I haven't become a woman to wear trousers" my first thought was ok fair enough but did you become a woman so that you could wear a skirt.... Do clothes define a person???? I suppose on the surface they do, it's an obvious marker that's for sure but are they really necessary to feel the like the sex that you already know that you are.... I think I'm a little "out there" with my opinion on this but hey! Here goes  ;D First of all I'm certainly not trying to upset anyone with my thoughts so apologies if I do.
For the majority of MtoF's transition is made into a trial of fire and brimstone because it's seen as necessary to complete a real life test WTF is all that about. Why Why Why do they think that wearing obviously female clothes, skirts, heels etc is necessary to show a persons commitment to changing their gender, How f**king ridiculous and spiteful (sorry but that's how strongly I feel) Is it fair to expect a guy who's six foot tall and 200lbs to don a dress and make up to demonstrate that he has a female brain in his head. We all know that this just isn't the case or at least we should. There are other ways to determine a persons commitment or depth of feeling towards changing gender but forcing them into clothes that they might not ever attempt to wear is certainly not one of them. Humiliation being seen as a tool to determine wether your genuine or not. My first and only visit to Charring cross  GID clinic some 25 years ago where I was told your hands and feet are to big, go away. They did manage to make their evaluation a little more detailed than that but that's what it boiled down to. Thankfully! so I hear things have moved on since then. These people were considered to be the experts, what hope has a transgender person got of finding some happiness in life when you're having to confront a lack of understanding like that. If I'd been a bit older and with some more life experience behind me I'd have dropped him on the floor and given him cause to find fault in his opinion. I wonder how many people experiencing gender confusion have gone away from such a meeting and jumped from a high building or swallowed a bullet when they've been given "help" like this. * I remember reading about a particular old school shrink here in the UK who I almost went to privately in order I could receive a procedure I was pursuing at that time. One of his patients a MtoF was waiting in the waiting room for her appointment, there were other people also sat waiting as it was a shared waiting area. She head been full time for some time, on hormones and everything and was just waiting for final approval for re assignment surgery. This supposed expert entered the waiting room and called her to her appointment by using the title of Mr and what was formerly her now redundant male name. You can imagine the distress this caused which she described in her writing. She was forced to stand up and identify herself in front of complete strangers. She wanted to sit tight and ignore the call as well she should but her appointment would have been cancelled and the date for her surgery delayed as a result. By all accounts the shrink had used this tactic before and he wouldn't have relented and addressed the patient by their actual chosen name. Needless to say I considered that it might be best if I didn't go to see him. Apart from being ridiculously expensive I may have been forced to show him the error of his ways  ;)
whilst I can totally understand that there are some transgender people who's only hope of some peace of mind is top and bottom surgery and everything in between and all over but I can't help thinking that there are some who get swept along in the whole experience and end up going further than they might otherwise have had to, to achieve some peace of mind.... *In some ways they are forced to behave and dress as their brain sex to prove that their thoughts and feelings aren't just a "phase they are going through" or a "fantasy" they might be having this month.
There's an easy way to determine wether or not someone's serious or not and it doesn't involve potentially humiliating them and putting their lives at risk. The introduction of cross sex hormones, that is hormones of a persons brain sex will fairly quickly determine wether a person is for real or not. In the short term the effects of hormones can soon make up a persons mind as to their suitability to transition or not as may turn out to be the case. If they aren't taking them for more than a few months in the case of MtoF then most of the effects will reverse to some degree and those that don't shouldn't be too troubling to accommodate as life progresses. I wonder just how many people have died as a result of violence, perhaps as a result of the real life test, when measured against medically supervised hormone treatment....
Transition: An interesting word, does it have to mean swapping "everything" over, ticking all the boxes, crossing all the T's and dotting all of the I's (Ali G!)  ;D From my ramblings I think you have worked out my opinion on that one. If my own Identity as I now see it, had been identified as a possibility for me 10 20 or 30 years ago I might have had a happier life as a result. There's always a chance that, that might not have been the case but it wouldn't have been as a result of wrestling my gender issues. How many lives could have been saved....
Personally I was never comfortable with cross dressing, it was helpful in getting me some relief from my tortured mind but it never felt right to me. If I were to be judged on that last statement some might say that "it's pretty obvious you're not the real deal" I beg to differ  :) As part of my own 'transition" I have permanently removed testosterone from my system, altered my hairline, tweaked my nose, removed my beard and chest hair and adopted estrogen as my chosen hormone. I'm as happy as Larry or Loraine, who cares, I;m cured and life has continued quite nicely thanks in NO! part to the bloody experts ;D ;D ;D ;D These days I don't present as female at all, I don't cross dress and yet I'm happy. I achieved my own happiness by making some changes that according to the experts would not be a good idea for me.
In short  ;D Forget labels who needs em, what purpose do they serve. before we're male/female, Black/White we should be recognised for what we do, how we do it and who we Really are.... I think Gender, skin colour, clothes etc are secondary to happiness, recognising them and differences in them and creating requirements for them only causes issues. For example in my hypothetical world where gender isn't recognised: there's no name for it; you can wear whatever you want; including nothing at all if that's your choice; have sex with who ever you want, assuming mutual agreement of course; would there be a word like transgender or the dysphoria that some of us suffer from.... Come to that would there be half the problems in the world that there are today  :o  Don't get me started on religion or the drugs war  ;D I've no doubt given you eye ache already assuming you've gotten this far  ;D
To finish  ;) finally ;D I must add that this is only my opinion, I wouldn't force it on anyone though I might argue as to it's validity  ;D I may change it in the future according to my experiences between now and then, whenever that is and I reserve that right  :D I hope it's been informative, maybe thought provoking and even a little funny at times, If I've offended anyone you have my humblest apologies BUT GET OVER IT!  ;D
In answer to those questions at the bottom of any posts we might do "Are you a human?" Uur... I think so >:-)


see you on the beach....
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