Dont normally promote the idea of self medicating, but.............

[shelly]

Annah, dont an Endo just deal with blood and hormone dissorders. Think Jesse point was, there was no reason for me to be self medicating as there are docs out there who would possibly prescribe hormones to somebody who thinks they are  Androgyne!!!

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

And if you know what you need and you think that endocrinologists won't prescribe hormones unless you're transsexual...then stretch the truth?  In the same way that trans* people learned to parrot the "true transsexual story" in the era of gatekeeping (though, who am I kidding, the age of gatekeeping hasn't ended), you can do the same.

[Annah]

Annah, dont an Endo just deal with blood and hormone dissorders. Think Jesse point was, there was no reason for me to be self medicating as there are docs out there who would possibly prescribe hormones to somebody who thinks they are  Androgyne!!!

Endocrinologists are the pivotal point of doctors who help trans people to medically transition in a hormonal respect. HRT is, in a sense, fixing a hormone disorder.

Also, you say you are androgynous but your Avatar shows you as a very feminine woman. I mean no disrespect and maybe I do not know enough about androgynous people to make an assumption but if you would approach me and stated you were Androgynous, I would be confused too. I am very open and I will accept that as truth from your point of view but I would, honestly be confused...because if you look as you do in your avatar, then I would assume you were feminine and female like qualities versus gender neutral qualities.

[shelly]

Endocrinologists are the pivotal point of doctors who help trans people to medically transition in a hormonal respect. HRT is, in a sense, fixing a hormone disorder.

Also, you say you are androgynous but your Avatar shows you as a very feminine woman. I mean no disrespect and maybe I do not know enough about androgynous people to make an assumption but if you would approach me and stated you were Androgynous, I would be confused too. I am very open and I will accept that as truth from your point of view but I would, honestly be confused...because if you look as you do in your avatar, then I would assume you were feminine and female like qualities versus gender neutral qualities.

Annah, everyone has their own opinion of what its like to be andro, to me it has nothing to do with how i look, its how i feel. I can understand totally your confusion, but to me i feel 60% female and 40% male, dont know really how i came up with those percentages, its just my way of stating that i feel more female than male. A lot of my time i have to come across as being male, whever it be due to work or my own family life, but at least on sites such as Susans i can let my female side out the cupboard, hence the avatar picture. I dont like my lifestyle as my female side feels as if it is not playing on an equal pitch as my male side and that alone is the reason i feel why i sometimes go in such depressive mood swings, just takes a trigger and i can spend days, weeks or months in a black hole. I see me taking hormones as a way of bringing the two sides of me together and creating just one person, mind over matter it may well be, but at the moment i cant remember the last time i felt so good.

As Endo's deal with Trans people, well i dont have to go on any further do i as im not Trans!!!! Wonderdyke, i think most of us Andro folk go through spells in their life when they believe they are TS, my spell was about 25 years ago. First of all i had to get refferal from my GP to a mental health shrink, then from there to a gender specialist, who i managed to convince that i was TS, but to tell you the truth probably only 50% was actually the truth, the rest i made up, which wasnt too hard as there were plenty of TS programmes about to give me ideas of what to expect and what to say. Trouble was where i had not been totally truthfull, it wasnt suprising that after 6 months of being on hormones and going to speech thereapy and also getting my first appointment with the hospital which would of carried out my operation, i realised that gender reassignment was the last thing i wanted so therefore put an end to all treatment, have never looked back and dont regret not going ahead with it, although i do sometimes wonder how my life would of turned out, personally think i would not of been alive now. Do wish i had of kept living this lie a bit longer, just to get bigger boobs, but hey that was then and this is now. As for going back and making out i am TS again just to get prescribed hormones, well i dont honestly think i would get pass first base as from what i can gather things are a lot more harder in this country now, in fact the last mental health nurse i saw stated she had never come across someone who she felt was TS as and i quote "Theres normally always a reason why you people are the way you are" so there you are, my part of England is offically a TS free zone???

[Annah]

The androgynous people I have met stated they are neither male nor female (or fully male and fully female). From what you are describing as yourself as being more feminine than masculine but then enjoy the creature comforts of male, there are those who would classify that as Bi Gender. And since you are doing DIY and being andro, are you taking estrogen as well as keeping your testosterone?

Also, just to play one side of the fence, unmonitored DIY hormones can eventually make you more depressed than you were before you started the hormones. I know you do not believe this right now and if I heard this two years ago, I would not believe it either. But after awhile, my endo had to place me on another regiment because after a few months of HRT with the HRT medication i was on, I went from being depressed once every other blue moon (I've been like that since I can remember) to being depressed and experiencing mood swings once a week. The HRT was the culprit. After the medication was switched, I stabilized.

Also, have you tried contacting any of the Endocrinologists before making the decision to gamble with this? Or was it based on a couple experiences you have had. There are over 2900 Endocrinologists in England (according to the Society for Endocrinology of England)....which is A LOT. I do not mean to sound presumptious, but have you really tried your best to procure a doctor? Because with over 2900 Doctors at your disposal, I would at least pursue these doctors first.

England is smaller than the size of Alabama. When I lived in rural Maryland before going to college, I would drive 3 hours to visit my doctor. That's 3 hours going about 110 KM an hour. When there is a will, there is a way. And with 2900 doctors, I am sure there is one that will help an androgynous person.

Good luck

[jesse]

perhaps i misunderstand something because in the U.S. you do not have to be transexual to be put on hormones only gender nonconforming. soc revised  7th makes this point abundantly clear and i thought in england this was the golden standard since srs and other treatments are publically funded. but again perhaps i just dont understand the system there in the end its a matter of health we are concerned for you  its a big risk factor to be on hormones without care and since you have said you have wished you were dead in the past and consequently are not afraid of dying this sounds like co morbid conditions that need to be addressed as well by a therapist as anxiety and depression run high in the community especially with the added stressers of gender non conformity ontop of general life stress that effects everyone
hugs i am happy you feel better just hoping you'll find a better way i took illicit hormones for a year before going legit it turned out that i was under taking doses so the effects were nill other then some emotional relief and a year of my life wasted when i could have made progress not to mention the unnessary risk of unknown source and quality of the meds themselfs
jessi

[Bishounen]

Shelly is unfortunately right that many doctors will refuse to prescribe hormones unless the patient is, or fakes to be, a Transsexual.
In some countries, this is even a policy by law, that the only persons that have the right to free Sex-corrective medical help are those intending to go the whole way. In other words, no Androgynes, ->-bleeped-<-s or other gendervarianted people.

Speaking of it, I knew a T-person that wanted to live as a "->-bleeped-<-" but had no money on her own to afford hormones, and therefore decided to "go the whole road" only to get free help to becomming feminized.
I ofcourse told her that it was an extremely silly idea have a full sexchange only to get hormones, and that she should get the hormones by her own by any means she could afford them, but little did she head my advice and went ahead whith the whole thing anyways and also got the surgery.
I don't know how she felt about having had the surgery done as I never asked her, but she did seem to be always somewhat edgy and almost angry afterwards and argued about all types of stuff. Don't know if it was connected, though.

[shelly]

The androgynous people I have met stated they are neither male nor female (or fully male and fully female). From what you are describing as yourself as being more feminine than masculine but then enjoy the creature comforts of male, there are those who would classify that as Bi Gender.

Dont know a lot about the sub sections of different genders, but i think someone who is Bi Gender takes up the characteristics of the gender they are in at he time, where someone who is Andro dont change reguardless of if they are in a male or female role. Now myself, although i feel more comfortable in a female role, my wife says i never change no matter who or what i am at the time, hence why i feel i am Andro.

i took illicit hormones for a year before going legit it turned out that i was under taking doses so the effects were nill other then some emotional relief and a year of my life wasted when i could have made progress not to mention the unnessary risk of unknown source and quality of the meds themselfs
jessi

Totally expect i am doing the same thing myself Jesse, but the "placebo effect" has been life changing it put an end to one of the most depressing spells i had gone through in my life, it just went on and on and on. Now how long this effect gonna last before i might start thinking "hang on, nothing seems to be happening here" well i dont know, but as i said i live for today, so we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

Shelly is unfortunately right that many doctors will refuse to prescribe hormones unless the patient is, or fakes to be, a Transsexual.

As ive already stated before the UK is like a 3rd world country when it comes to recognising Androgyne, to me it makes perfect sense, if a male or female get only half the ingredients of a Transsexual during the 9 months of a pregnancy then what do you get left with? Well in my eyes an Androgyne, but hey what do i know? But the point is in this country unless you are TS then you have no hope of being able to access hormones, so i had no option whatsoever other than do what i am doing now, the effects might only be temporary, but i am really enjoying life at the moment and thats all that counts. Thankyou all for your concern though and like i said, after a few months i will get a health check done at my GP surgery and ask they check my blood as well.

[the_physicist]

The androgynous people I have met stated they are neither male nor female (or fully male and fully female). From what you are describing as yourself as being more feminine than masculine but then enjoy the creature comforts of male, there are those who would classify that as Bi Gender. And since you are doing DIY and being andro, are you taking estrogen as well as keeping your testosterone?

Also, just to play one side of the fence, unmonitored DIY hormones can eventually make you more depressed than you were before you started the hormones. I know you do not believe this right now and if I heard this two years ago, I would not believe it either. But after awhile, my endo had to place me on another regiment because after a few months of HRT with the HRT medication i was on, I went from being depressed once every other blue moon (I've been like that since I can remember) to being depressed and experiencing mood swings once a week. The HRT was the culprit. After the medication was switched, I stabilized.

Also, have you tried contacting any of the Endocrinologists before making the decision to gamble with this? Or was it based on a couple experiences you have had. There are over 2900 Endocrinologists in England (according to the Society for Endocrinology of England)....which is A LOT. I do not mean to sound presumptious, but have you really tried your best to procure a doctor? Because with over 2900 Doctors at your disposal, I would at least pursue these doctors first.

England is smaller than the size of Alabama. When I lived in rural Maryland before going to college, I would drive 3 hours to visit my doctor. That's 3 hours going about 110 KM an hour. When there is a will, there is a way. And with 2900 doctors, I am sure there is one that will help an androgynous person.

Good luck

I don't think you understand how healthcare in the UK works. you cannot just walk into a doctors and pay for treatment you want. that doesn't work here. Yes, there are some private doctors, but the vast majority are NHS and you can't pay them to do anything. Sure, there are some private places, but you can't just go to a private endo. they don't really exist. they might be some endos working in private hospitals or clinics, but then again, you can't go knocking on their doors, you have to go through the whole private system and you guys in America should know how expensive that might turn out to be. it's not something most people could possibly afford.

[Annah]

I don't think you understand how healthcare in the UK works. you cannot just walk into a doctors and pay for treatment you want. that doesn't work here. Yes, there are some private doctors, but the vast majority are NHS and you can't pay them to do anything. Sure, there are some private places, but you can't just go to a private endo. they don't really exist. they might be some endos working in private hospitals or clinics, but then again, you can't go knocking on their doors, you have to go through the whole private system and you guys in America should know how expensive that might turn out to be. it's not something most people could possibly afford.

i understand that. The doctors I mentioned are listed in the UK healthcare system.

[the_physicist]

i understand that. The doctors I mentioned are listed in the UK healthcare system.

But the UK healthcare system doesn't function on an insurance basis. You don't go to a doctor and then get your insurance to cover your treatment.

UK healthcare extends even to illegal immigrants as it's considered a human right. It's paid for by all taxpayers and is a public service and an institution. That means though that when you go to the doctor, although it's all free, you do have to put up with the fact that you will have to wait for treatment and go through the system. So you have to start at you're GP's who then refers you to a specialist. You can't just go to a specialist. And almost all specialists are located in hospitals or special clinics. Without your GP screening your claim for specialist treatment and allowing you to have it, you get nowhere. And if you want to see an endo for gender reasons, they'll send you to a shrink first to have him validate that.
And when you do get the doctors to finally give you a referal to a specialist such as an endo, then you are put on yet another waiting list based on how urgent your case is. And even if your GP let you see an endo, then your endo can just look at the guidelines and see you don't want to change your sex and tell you that you're clearly not meant to be in their office then.


edit: and this system is not a small one for poor people and then there's lots of private doctors and hospitals that 'most people use'. almost everyone uses the national health care system, even the Queen. the private clinics are often for services not offered by the national health service, such as cosmetic surgery or such like. They also have to deal with bad press when things go wrong in a private practice as they are decried as not being regulated enough (that may be undeserved, but it still puts off many and I think most who use private health care facilities in the UK are foreigners actually, at least that's my experience in London).

[Julian]

The androgynous people I have met stated they are neither male nor female (or fully male and fully female). From what you are describing as yourself as being more feminine than masculine but then enjoy the creature comforts of male, there are those who would classify that as Bi Gender.

Just wanted to address this. There are lots of ways to be androgynous; it's an umbrella term. What Shelly has described is to me a very valid androgynous identity. Bigender, to my understanding, is the 'fully male and fully female' state, but only experiencing one at a time.

Also, you say you are androgynous but your Avatar shows you as a very feminine woman. I mean no disrespect and maybe I do not know enough about androgynous people to make an assumption but if you would approach me and stated you were Androgynous, I would be confused too. I am very open and I will accept that as truth from your point of view but I would, honestly be confused...because if you look as you do in your avatar, then I would assume you were feminine and female like qualities versus gender neutral qualities.

I would think it would go without saying here that presentation can have little to nothing to do with internal sense of gender.

[Annah]

I would think it would go without saying here that presentation can have little to nothing to do with internal sense of gender.

Oh, I would agree. I was just trying to get to what the therapists may had been confused about by presenting outwardly female but being androgynous. I also agree that androgynous people are sadly misunderstood quite often.

[Annah]

But the UK healthcare system doesn't function on an insurance basis. You don't go to a doctor and then get your insurance to cover your treatment.

UK healthcare extends even to illegal immigrants as it's considered a human right. It's paid for by all taxpayers and is a public service and an institution. That means though that when you go to the doctor, although it's all free, you do have to put up with the fact that you will have to wait for treatment and go through the system. So you have to start at you're GP's who then refers you to a specialist. You can't just go to a specialist. And almost all specialists are located in hospitals or special clinics. Without your GP screening your claim for specialist treatment and allowing you to have it, you get nowhere. And if you want to see an endo for gender reasons, they'll send you to a shrink first to have him validate that.
And when you do get the doctors to finally give you a referal to a specialist such as an endo, then you are put on yet another waiting list based on how urgent your case is. And even if your GP let you see an endo, then your endo can just look at the guidelines and see you don't want to change your sex and tell you that you're clearly not meant to be in their office then.


edit: and this system is not a small one for poor people and then there's lots of private doctors and hospitals that 'most people use'. almost everyone uses the national health care system, even the Queen. the private clinics are often for services not offered by the national health service, such as cosmetic surgery or such like. They also have to deal with bad press when things go wrong in a private practice as they are decried as not being regulated enough (that may be undeserved, but it still puts off many and I think most who use private health care facilities in the UK are foreigners actually, at least that's my experience in London).

I understand this. Just like there are endocrinologists here, I simply cannot go to one and get an appointment.

I have to go through the WPATH channels to be approved and then search one out. But when the channels are open then I can explore the doctors that are available to me.

Likewise in the UK, you go through the proper channels within social healthcare and once you are approved then you seek them out.

[smooth]

From my own experience I know that it is possible to see specialists without referrals as I did it twice. However if you're hoping to get a prescription from an endo or surgery they might well insist on letters of suitability before they put pen to paper or scalpel to skin. You'd need to visit a shrink or two to obtain what is basically a letter of suitability. Self medicating, visiting another country or similar is a means to circumvent this. I'm not saying it's right but it's a possibility. Some people like to have a hand to hold for support and some resent it, finances are a factor as well.
I read somewhere else possibly in this forum (not the exact words) "It's ironic that I have had to take female hormones in order that I can be happy being a boy...." I doubt there's many shrinks who would understand this but it makes perfect sense to me. I'd resent be mentally poked and prodded so that someone else, ie a shrink, could make sense of it themselves before deciding that I should have permission to move forward with my life, f*%K that!
Point from another post: My own understanding of bi-gender is a bit of both at the same time, a blurring of the definitions, A state of mind, as is sometimes the case and not necessarily accompanied by a choice in any gender typical clothing or pursuit. "only experiencing one at a time" Isn't there already a label or two for that already. I still find the idea of labels a bit pointless and limiting and not worthy of the amount of conversation and argument that they attract.