Do you ever wonder why ?

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

This thread I guess is more so for the god-centric believers but non believers can also comment, however PLEASE reframe from derogatory comments regarding a person's belief in their god...Constructively challenging an opinion and which does not result in flaming or personal attacks is ok from both sides...

Now the last stages of my transition went quite smoothly, one could say a 'text book' case-acceptance of  'self', acceptance by others, blending into the social fabric of society, so to speak as a woman ...  .

However prior to this I struggled with accepting my congenital condition,  two suicide attempts both times ending up in hospital having my stomach pumped, plus a couple of short stints in psyche wards  in my early twenties...So yes at first life was a bit of a struggle.

Here's the thing, I have no belief in a 'supreme being', however in my younger years I had pondered the idea of a creator, but the mind quickly dismantled this through reason, leaving the god concept  "empty" of any substance, and yet now my life is wholesome, I tend to flow through life in a content state.

So it would seem some non believers like myself-[no doubt there are other non believer post transitioners] seem to have the believer's god working for 'us' when it comes to having a successful transition...Why would this god go out of his/her/its way to help non believers [so called sinners  ], yet make the lives of many of its devout believers somewhat unbearable ? 

One would think a just god, full of benevolence  would show preference towards its devout followers     and ease their suffering and lighten the burdens which they are struggling with...

I've heard many times that this believer's god "Works in mysterious ways !" and also "Helps those who help themselves!" including so it would seem non believers too..........Why ? 

I know that my understanding of life isn't going to change and it's one that's free of a supreme being...

Food for thought for some, for others it would seem it's a no brainer.....But I could be wrong...

Metta Zenda      

[Zaria]

'god works in mysterious ways' is just another way of saying "I haven't a clue why this has happened... but I still have faith in God". 
Personally, I think saying that God works in mysterious ways is a condescending answer... empty and pointless.

I believe that there is a monotheistic God, but I just think he's doesn't give a rats ass for us... as Voltaire said "The king of Egypt exists but there is no proof that he cares for a drowning rat on his ships" (paraphrased from Candide)...

Hugs
Zaria

[Anatta]

I believe that there is a monotheistic God, but I just think he's doesn't give a rats ass for us...

Hugs
Zaria

Kia Ora Zaria,

Are you a deist ?

Metta Zenda

[Zaria]

Kia Ora Zaria,

Are you a deist ?

Metta Zenda

I used to be a fundamentalist christian...  but had many problems with what the bible actually states compared to how it was 'interpreted' by various denominations.   Even a cursory reading of the bible will reveal that God is not a god of love, but of vengeance and violence.  The 'problem of evil' is too difficult to explain if there is a loving God...

I started studying philosophy as a hobby and started questioning some of my fundamental beliefs and found that they couldn't stand up to logical examinations. 

Am I a deist?  I guess it is a good a label as any

Kia ora?  hmm Maori?

Hugs
Zaria

[Anatta]

I used to be a fundamentalist christian...  but had many problems with what the bible actually states compared to how it was 'interpreted' by various denominations.   Even a cursory reading of the bible will reveal that God is not a god of love, but of vengeance and violence.  The 'problem of evil' is too difficult to explain if there is a loving God...

I started studying philosophy as a hobby and started questioning some of my fundamental beliefs and found that they couldn't stand up to logical examinations. 

Am I a deist?  I guess it is a good a label as any

Kia ora?  hmm Maori?

Hugs
Zaria

Kia Ora Zaria,

Yes it's a Maori greeting....

They do say that "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered - Religion is answers that may never be questioned !"

I had a brother in law who used to be a fundy, well to cut a long story short...He was a preacher, married with one child, then one day all hell broke loose..He got divorced, left the church, came out as 'gay'  and the last I heard he had been into sex, drugs and rock & roll and now lives with his same sex life partner...

  The lord sure does work in mysterious ways ! That's for sure 

Do you still maintain any contact with your fundy community ? 

Metta Zenda  

[Zaria]

Do I remain contact with them?  some of them will still speak to me, most won't. 

I lost contact with them when I started publicly challenging them on their beliefs.  Most of them just turtled and kept repeating the same dogma.

The problem with most 'Christians' (and fundamentalists are no different) is that they don't actually read their bibles.  Sure fundamentalists like to claim that their beliefs are 'bible based', but most of them have never actually read the book.   What most of them do is listen to people who claim to have read the book.  When I challenge them on their beliefs, they can't actually reply with a scripture quote.  The small percentage that actually does read it, reads through a denominational lens.  They will put their own interpretation on what the text says instead of what the actual words say.   Its kinda funny actually, most fundamentalists decry deconstructionism but they collectively do the same thing between denominations.

Hugs
Zaria

[Anatta]

Do I remain contact with them?  some of them will still speak to me, most won't. 

I lost contact with them when I started publicly challenging them on their beliefs.  Most of them just turtled and kept repeating the same dogma.

The problem with most 'Christians' (and fundamentalists are no different) is that they don't actually read their bibles.  Sure fundamentalists like to claim that their beliefs are 'bible based', but most of them have never actually read the book.   What most of them do is listen to people who claim to have read the book.  When I challenge them on their beliefs, they can't actually reply with a scripture quote.  The small percentage that actually does read it, reads through a denominational lens.  They will put their own interpretation on what the text says instead of what the actual words say.   Its kinda funny actually, most fundamentalists decry deconstructionism but they collectively do the same thing between denominations.

Hugs
Zaria

Kia Ora Zaria,

It would seem you are one of the lucky more fortunate ones who got away virtually unscathed, many are not as fortunate as yourself, and for some it can take many years to undo the damage caused by [for want of a better word] "brainwashing"...

There's a saying in the atheist and I guess the agnostic world too [it's their version of René Descartes's "Cogito ergo sum"] they say "I think therefore I am 'Atheist' [Agnostic]!" 

Metta Zenda  

[espo]

From the perspective of that there is a creator, then I would say circumstances and personal expectations would make the difference.  I mean lets face it, the human being is a broken machine that death finally puts out of its misery.  There are so many ways to look at a situation and the person who's family placed in them self respect and strength will make different choices opposed to the person who was told they were a piece of crap and would be a loser all their life.  I think its more of psychological thing then a religious thing unless you are absolutely sure that NO christian has ever transitioned successfully.

[Anatta]

From the perspective of that there is a creator, then I would say circumstances and personal expectations would make the difference.  I mean lets face it, the human being is a broken machine that death finally puts out of its misery.  There are so many ways to look at a situation and the person who's family placed in them self respect and strength will make different choices opposed to the person who was told they were a piece of crap and would be a loser all their life.  I think its more of psychological thing then a religious thing unless you are absolutely sure that NO christian has ever transitioned successfully.

Kia Ora Espo,

I know of post op trans-people who call themselves Christians, and from what I gather for some their transitions were successful, and others whose transition was any thing but successful... However the point I'm making [from my personal perspective that is] is that a supernatural being had no hand in it whatsoever...

Those successful ones might like to 'think' that a god's on their side and has helped them in some way, but then one would also have to think why on earth would this god help the non believers to successfully transition, when they continue to have no faith/belief in a god-what's this god's point ?

However you are right when you say it's 'psychological'... It's all in the minds of the believers and non believers, however the non believer seems to be more aware of this fact and tend to take advantage of it....


Metta Zenda    

[espo]

Maybe the question that should be asked is why does the creator allow anything good at all to happen to non believers ?  If that can be answered satisfactory then we might be able to come up with reasons why the creator appears to not have helped every believer equally.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

Or perhaps I should have said "What's 'god' got to do with your transition ?"

Metta Zenda

[espo]

   maybe we should determine if there is a god first and then start asking questions 

[Anatta]

   maybe we should determine if there is a god first and then start asking questions 

Kia Ora Espo,

For the agnostic maybe... However our trans brothers and sisters who are 'theists' have no need to determine whether their god exists or not... In their minds  s/he/it is real enough...And this is more so targeting our theist members-probing their minds for answers....

Metta Zenda

[fionabell]

Hello Zenda,

Maybe from a non religious perspective: Mutations happen all the time. By which I mean all the time. So why can't nature decide that you are metamorphosing into a female? Everything that happens in the universe is natural. Even building a house or sewing a dress. so you were born with male genitals but you are female.

Fi

[justmeinoz]

Existentialists hold that life has no intrinsic meaning.  Our consciousness gives life it's meaning, based on the choices we make.  Even refusing to make choices and allow ourselves to follow the herd is in itself a choice.

I think it is fair to say that all those here have made some pretty major choices, and refuse to regret them or make excuses.  Trying to work out why we are transgendered or intersex is not really looking for an excuse, as we have already chosen where we are going, at least for the present moment, and there is no way to undo our condition. 

The term transition implies that  we are undergoing a process of change and are not a finished article, and realistically will never truly stop transitioning all our lives, even after SRS. 

Karen. 

[annette]

There is nothing wrong with believing in a supreme being and living by the bible, as long as you keep that just for yourself.
Problem with most believers is that they project their believe on your lifestyle and are most critical of what you're doing with your life.

Problem with the bible is that, it's  written vague, so everyone has an own perspective and interpretation on it.
IMHO non believers has to approach believers with respect for their religion and believers has to show respect to the other point of view from the non believers.

If this could be achieved, everybody could live in freedom and peace.
Now, religion is often abused to criticise people who think different. It's a pity.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

If one thinks about it, the theist's god is [when it comes to transitioning and for want of better words] just a bystander an onlooker...With hands tied so to speak...

I just find it strange when I hear a believer say things like "God wants me to do this s/he/it has given me a sign etc !" Then on the other side of the same holy coin we have other believers who 'believe' god sees gay and trans-people as sinners-going against god's will...

I might be free of all this mental toing and froing  that many believers must continually go through, like doubts and questioning their beliefs when under pressure, but it doesn't stop me wanting to get to the core of the trans-believer's mind set, what makes them continue on with their line of thought regarding their god....

Both side of the coin are driven by 'faith'  both 'believe' their god is with them-this alone should sow the seeds of doubt in a god's existence....

But enough said from me for now.......

Metta Zenda

[Anatta]

Hello Zenda,

Maybe from a non religious perspective: Mutations happen all the time. By which I mean all the time. So why can't nature decide that you are metamorphosing into a female? Everything that happens in the universe is natural. Even building a house or sewing a dress. so you were born with male genitals but you are female.

Fi

Kia Ora Fi,

The possibilities are endless or so it would seem....Especially when it comes to Mother Nature....

Metta Zenda

[Seras]

I am not religious, I am a hard sceptic who believes we can know nothing of (G)god/s:

So it would seem some non believers like myself-[no doubt there are other non believer post transitioners] seem to have the believer's god working for 'us' when it comes to having a successful transition...Why would this god go out of his/her/its way to help non believers [so called sinners  ], yet make the lives of many of its devout believers somewhat unbearable ? 

God is supposed to be "all loving".

One would think a just god, full of benevolence  would show preference towards its devout followers     and ease their suffering and lighten the burdens which they are struggling with...

It is not moral for a person to be partial to others for reasons irrelevant to the case. If God is all loving then it is not congruent that God would pick anyone over anyone else. You really think such a supreme all loving being would be so bitchy as to not help people who needed help because they did not show proper respect, out of ignorance or otherwise?

I've heard many times that this believer's god "Works in mysterious ways !" and also "Helps those who help themselves!" including so it would seem non believers too..........Why ? 

If it is a fair God a just God then it cannot show partiality to anyone for any reason that is not of relevant importance. If the God is all loving then it loves everyone, the real question is why would it not help you?

The traditional monotheistic God of the western world is three things. All loving, all knowing and all powerful, it is also supposed to forgive for all sins. If you consider this definition then the answer to your questions become clear. This God is not the vengeful bitchy God of the old testament unleahsing plagues because you did not slaughter your goat properly and demanding you take an eye for an eye, it is the God of love for all, why would you ever question that such a God, should it exist would not help you?

Until of course you include the clauses on free will.


---

As for the problem of evil, again the free will defence (Plantinga) does a pretty good job with regards to moral evil but it is not the only thing out there, it flounders a bit though with regards to natural evil. However there are many theodicies, discovering the problem of evil is far from the end of the argument.

[annette]

So many times things did go wrong in the name of religion, even in this modern time.
Suicide bombers, 9-11, child abuse in the church, recent past Northern Ireland and in the past millions and millions are slaughtered in the name of God.
I think it's time for humanity to use common sense.

I honestly think when it comes to transition, you have to do it yourself, you can pray till you look purple to God to make you a girl, but I never heard that something like this ever happenend.