I have ->-bleeped-<-. Is 20 too late to pass *attractively*? (pics)

[Bishounen]

Seriously, why? I personally think (Unless you live in SF or some other place with a similar insulated but large gay community)  going drag could hurt a transition. Wearing ridiculous make-up and having people think you are a man who dresses like a woman is gonna hurt your credability when you turn around and say "actually, i was a woman all along and now im gonna make it happen". People are just gonna be like, "sooo why the ridiculous make-up, why the ridiculous attitude?"

I believe Drag, transvestitism and transexualisms are three seperate things with overlapping areas. People do belong to multiple catagories I dont deny, but if you want people to believe its not all about sex and theatrics it might be smart to steer clear.

I really don't see the reason that testing other options before taking the irreversable plunge would be bad just because the T-community are afraid that someone starting out as a flamboyant drag queen discovers herself to be Transsexual.
If that was the case, a large chunk of the community would be gone with the wind already.

plus, he said himself that he apparently doesn't know exactly which road would be the best for him, hence utter carefulness is needed, as just going straight ahead with a sex change without having explored other options if you are not 100% certain that this is really The correct solution for you, might turn out disasterous.

People that have chaned sex and later on, perhaps after decades later, have regretted it, all say the same thing; Explore all other options before doing this.

If he is truly transsexual, then becoming a female is the thing he needs to do, as there in that case simply are no other options for him, but if he is merely an intense crossdresser or a Crossdreamer, then changing sex could instead potentially turn into a tragedy.
Although, as stated earlier, there also are non-transsexual changers that have actually turned out happy aswell.

[Sailor_Saturn]

Ok, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I am going to see my psychiatrist of 2 years on Tuesday, at which point I will request HRT and express that I am transgendered. What are the critical points that I need to make clear to him? I was hoping to go in with a list of questions and comments to talk about.

And just so that I can have an intelligent discussion with him, why exactly is autogynophilia a whack theory that should be discarded?

->-bleeped-<- is a whack theory because its proponents offer no scientific argument for their case whatsoever. Bailey's book, "The Man Who Would be Queen", essentially posits that all MTF transsexuals are either autogynephiles or extraordinarily effeminiate gay men. That in and of itself isn't the problem, the problem is that Bailey goes on to make this hypothesis unfalsifiable by arguing that any transsexual who doesn't fit his paradigm is simply lying and actually does fall into one of his two categories (they simply won't admit it). Also, take into account that Bailey's "research" is entirely composed of an examination of anecdotal evidence and that the sample he examined was not at all representative. If there is any actually scientific argument for the existence of  ->-bleeped-<-, I have not heard it.

Think of it this way, because this is in essence what Bailey did:

Suppose I am going to investigate whether a significant proportion of young people are using meth or other hard drugs. To conduct my investigation, I gather my sample from local drug dens. What do you expect I'll find? Why yes, young people do indeed use meth in huge numbers! In fact, my entire sample of young people used meth or some other hard drug! And when young people come forward and say that they don't use meth or other hard drugs? Well, those people are lying about their drug habit for social reasons. And when they get angry about that argument and start questioning my credentials? They're politically motivated activists upset over "legitimate science" showing something they don't like.

There's a reason Bailey had to leave his university post.  *Correction: Bailey left his chairmanship voluntarily and still serves on his university's staff.

Bailey's paradigm completely disregards the fact that transwomen think of themselves as women beyond the sexual sphere. That is, in their social lives, their professional lives, their spiritual lives, transwomen consider themselves women. That's the key point, that a transwoman considers herself a woman in full. It's not a sexual fantasy she has become affixed to, it's her core gender identity, her very being. Bailey's paradigm supposes that this is so because even being treated like a woman is a sexual thrill for an MTF, a hypothesis that could never be tested.

[Annah]

I agree concerning  ->-bleeped-<- being completely a "witch doctor" science. However, before I go on, I do have to state that there are trans people who readily and openly believe that they are  ->-bleeped-<-cs. In my opinion, it is their body and their life so they (those who call themselves an  ->-bleeped-<-c) can do whatever they want with it.

However, I do not lower myself to that standard. I am not trying to come across as judgmental but I have a higher sense of awareness with myself other than the act that I must be REALLY REALLY gay or just someone who sexually fantasizes about being a woman. I am sure the vast majority of trans out there will agree.

It would be hard to prove I am an  ->-bleeped-<-c through it's very definitions but one would assume that I would not attend Seminary fulltime as Annah, work in the public sector, and serve in a Church if all this was a fetish for me or a chance to live out my ultra gay maleness.

The theory of  ->-bleeped-<- is just so incorrect that I hardly ever visit the discussion. Dr. Anne Lawrence really popularized it by stating she was an  ->-bleeped-<-c. She also has some deep seeded issues....one of them being she had her medical license stripped away from her by abusing her anesthesia as a doctor.

Sadly, new girls who first discover or begin to discover who they are may run into her website when searching for transgender issues. If anything, it is tragic that her website is still up.

Having a doctor call a trans an  ->-bleeped-<-c is no different than a doctor accusing someone of witchcraft because she has a mole on her body. It's not scientific, it's poor research and it's damn outright stupid. If my doctor diagnosed me as an  ->-bleeped-<-c, I would fire him right on the spot. Can you imagine a cardiologist suggesting to have leeches suck out your bad blood rather than the more modern treatments?

If your doctor diagnosed you with that (to the OP) he is either a very old man who has never bothered to look into the latest medical journals concerning transsexualism or he is just ignorant. Nevertheless, I believe him to be underpar with contemporary psychologists.

Does he also make you read the position of the stars to get a better outlook on your condition too? Because right now, he sounds like someone right out of the dark ages.

[Joandelynn]

If there is any actually scientific argument for the existence of  ->-bleeped-<-, I have not heard it.

I haven't heard of that either. But unfortunately the terms  ->-bleeped-<- and homosexual transsexual are still copied and being used by other scientists in their publications, and that bugs the hell out of me (also because it is extremely insulting to call a transsexual woman who's into men "homosexual").

[Bishounen]

Regarding the earlier debate concerning Being a female and Wanting to become a female, I provide the following account that is interesting;

A TS woman in transition recognizes autogynephilic arousal in herself, and wonders whether she is a "true" transsexual:

    I read most of your article on  ->-bleeped-<- with my mouth open or my hand up to my face. I had two initial reactions: it made me uncomfortable to read something which so closely described my crossgender urges which don't seem to fit the TS "norm"; and at the same time, it relieved me to realize that perhaps I'm not the only one who has such feelings. You may have answered a question which has shadowed me for the entire 18 months I've been in therapy.

  For all intents and purposes, I am conducting myself like the standard vanilla "woman trapped in a man's body", and the prospect of my carrying out a successful transition, including changing gender in my present job, seems to be good. But throughout all this, I have been haunted by a question which neither my therapist nor I can answer. In contrast to the so-called "true transsexuals", I do not believe myself to BE a woman, nor did I ever believe myself to BE a girl while growing up. I certainly wasn't masculine -- I played almost exclusively with girls and did not act at all macho, but I never thought I WAS a girl. My motivation for transitioning, which I have freely shared with my therapist, is not that I believe I AM a woman, but that I want to BE a woman, and that I have no question that I would be more psychologically comfortable LIVING AS a woman. But I cannot in all honesty look a genetic female in the eye and say, "I am a woman, just like you," which is the impression I get listening to other TSs I read about or write to.

    What has bothered me for so long about all this is [my belief] that to admit this is to say that I am not a "true transsexual;" hence I have no reason to transition. But if I don't transition, I ask myself, then what? How do I deal with this unbearable anxiety? Four times this year, I have decided that, for this and other reasons, I simply must remain male. And all four times, I became seriously suicidal within a week.... So, I am going with the only other option I know of which will keep me alive and functional -- be the "true transsexual," go through with transition, and keep my mouth shut regarding my confusion.

More accounts worth reading, regardless of whether one believs the ->-bleeped-<--theory itself or not, is to be found here: http://www.annelawrence.com/28narratives.html#1
And here: http://www.annelawrence.com/31narratives.html#29
(Yeah yeah it is linked to Anne Lawrence's site, but it's still personal stories worth reading.)

[Annah]

Yeah anything linked to Anne Lawrence's site is not worth reading. No offense. Look at her bibliography section; it's all materials that she had written and half of those narratives are CD erotic writings. Not my cup of tea.

It's like reading a book King Henry VIII wrote about the sanctity of Marriage.

[Bishounen]

Yeah anything linked to Anne Lawrence's site is not worth reading. No offense.

It's like reading a book King Henry VIII wrote about the sanctity of Marriage.

Ofcourse, you are in your full right to not do so, although it is a bit of an odd strategy, as it basically is like saying in plain text that "I refuse to hear other peoples stories if they do not say what I want them to say".

Plus, your example with the book is limping, as the linked personal anecdotes is not written by Lawrence herself, but by other people- not her.

[Annah]

Ofcourse, you are in your full right to not do so, although it is a bit of an odd strategy, as it basically is like saying in plain text that "I refuse to hear other peoples stories if they do not say what I want them to say!".

Plus, your example with the book is very limping, as the linked personal anecdotes is not written by Lawrence herself, but by other people- not her.

No offense.

I know the stories were not written by her ....I was referring to her bibliography section.

Plus, it is not me saying "I do not like what she has to say so I will not see her site."

I saw her site before. It was a joke. I read the entire site in the past. I have no desire to go back there and read out her outdated, wrong, and inaccurate beliefs on other trans.

[tekla]

There's a reason Bailey had to leave his university post.

And what would that be?  In October of 04, Bailey resigned as chairman of the Psychology Department, he is however  Bailey still serves as a Northwestern professor (I just looked at the facility directory) so he wasn't forced to do much of anything.  Being chairman for the most part is a suck-ass academic job that gets less than no respect^* and is often chosen on the basis of picking the least offensive person.  They put one of his classes on hold, but hes' still got his office, staff, and of course, his paycheck.  So I'm not even sure I know what your are talking about.  I am, however, convinced you don't either.


I agree concerning  ->-bleeped-<- being completely a "witch doctor" science.

When I first read that I cracked up, I was thinking, who knows maybe she does have a sense of humor.  But once I realized you were serious - well then I really, really laughed.  Just for the sake of more yucks, academic to academic about more academics, you are of course going to provide more scientific proof for your son-of-god killed turned zombie who loves you but if you don't get down on your knees to worship him you're going to hell just to prove how much he loves you thesis aren't you?





* - no research, no respect.  Big deal, you can sign a travel voucher, in most of the companies I've worked at, so could a secretary.

[Bishounen]

I know the stories were not written by her ....I was referring to her bibliography section.

Plus, it is not me saying "I do not like what she has to say so I will not see her site."

I saw her site before. It was a joke. I read the entire site in the past. I have no desire to go back there and read out her outdated, wrong, and inaccurate beliefs on other trans.

Well, I have no real problem with that as I do not really agree with her opinions either.
Or perhaps rather, I agree with some of it, and I am also certain that Autogynephilic individuals/transitioners indeed do exist, but, as earlier stated, I disagree with it being an allcovering explanation, so to speak.

Anyway, I understand your standpoint.

[Annah]

When I first read that I cracked up, I was thinking, who knows maybe she does have a sense of humor.  But once I realized you were serious - well then I really, really laughed.  Just for the sake of more yucks, academic to academic about more academics, you are of course going to provide more scientific proof for your son-of-god killed turned zombie who loves you but if you don't get down on your knees to worship him you're going to hell just to prove how much he loves you thesis aren't you?

it takes a pitiful and sad person to constantly bash another person's religion in multiple threads to get a response or try to get "under someone's skin."

Here is some advice for you and your ego: Grow up a little, start acting like your age and not a teeny bop teenager who gets off on putting others down, and stop hiding behind your countless posts here as some sort of authority figure on everything there is. Because I can see right through it.

You may see yourself as an expert of everything but I see you as a bitter and sad old person who has nothing better to do with their life but to post here constantly as some warped form of an alpha female.

Oh, and just for the record: I do not believe that Jesus was resurrected so your method of attack was pointless.

[Annah]

Well, I have no real problem with that as I do not really agree with her opinions either.
Or perhaps rather, I agree with some of it, and I am also certain that Autogynephilic individuals/transitioners indeed do exist, but, as earlier stated, I disagree with it being an allcovering explanation, so to speak.

Anyway, I understand your standpoint.

Oh i agree with that. I believe there are people who believe they are ->-bleeped-<-. The OP here believes it. I do believe they do exist as how they define themselves but I think, for the most part, the definition can be destructive more than it can be resourceful.

[Ultimus]

Regarding the earlier debate concerning Being a female and Wanting to become a female, I provide the following account that is interesting;
More accounts worth reading, regardless of whether one believs the ->-bleeped-<--theory itself or not, is to be found here: http://www.annelawrence.com/28narratives.html#1
And here: http://www.annelawrence.com/31narratives.html#29
(Yeah yeah it is linked to Anne Lawrence's site, but it's still personal stories worth reading.)

Wow, that kind of sums of my position. I've never felt like I was a girl trapped in a guy's body, but at the same time, I have this overwhelming desire to be a girl. My experience is exactly like that exert!

I am going to see my psychiatrist in 1.5 hours, hopefully I will come out with some good news.

[stldrmgrl]

I didn't say anything about attraction.

I am not attracted to men, if I was I wouldn't consider myself homosexual but if I engage in anal sex with my anatomical parts I was born with I am having a homosexual sex. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct!

I won't comment as to the actual definition of "homosexual" as it has already been stated, however, just to keep your mind open, ciswomen too can have anal sex and by far does not constitute anything homosexual.  Such a comment suggests you perceive yourself as a man having sex with another.  When I think of "homosexual transsexual [woman]" I lean towards a transwoman being attracted to another woman.  Just my two cents, carry on...

[Bishounen]

Oh i agree with that. I believe there are people who believe they are ->-bleeped-<-. The OP here believes it. I do believe they do exist as how they define themselves but I think, for the most part, the definition can be destructive more than it can be resourceful.

I definitely agree that there are indeed people that believe themselves to be Autogynephilic although in reality they are transsexuals, but I meant actual Autogynephilics, that want's to transition because of Erotic reasons, rather than Gender Identity-reasons.

For instance, in my opinion the following individuals are not transsexuals, but some type of Auto-Fetishists or possibly, to use the loaded term,  "Autogynephiles";

I am a 36 year old post-op male-to-female transsexual. I had my SRS four years ago. As long as I can remember, I always fantasized about having a woman's body. Every time I would see an attractive woman, I thought how nice it would be to actually be her. Well, now I have succeeded.

During my transition, I realized that I didn't want to be a woman, but the idea of developing breasts and being forced to become feminized became so strong that I had surgical procedures done on my face and body, up to and including SRS. I am now completely feminized and must live the rest of my life "trapped" as a female. Deep down I know I could have lived comfortably as a man, maybe just crossdressing; but now I have to present myself to the world as a female.

It's hard to describe the pleasure I have now in my womanhood. What most would feel to be a bother -- makeup in the morning, wearing bras, pantyhose, and heels -- I consider them a joy. I'm in a 24/7 masquerade party, out there fooling everyone. The joy and excitement of this is as much thrill as I need. I look in the mirror [and say], "Look what I've done to myself, and look what I now have to live with. I can't go back, or undo these permanent changes to my body. I am forced to be feminized for the rest of my life." What a turn-on! I have thought about [going back to living as a man], however, I love my 38D breasts, and at best I would be an incomplete male.

And;

I am a 35 year old M to F post-op of five years. I feel I have a unique situation. Before and during transition, all I could think of is becoming a woman. I started dressing at age 14 and wished that I could one day wake up and change into a female. I started transitioning when I turned 26. I couldn't wait till I could have SRS -- that was my ultimate goal. With each step along the way, I treasured seeing my maleness disappear while I blossomed into a woman. My erections began to wither away as my breasts began to bud. I will never forget the day when I tried to have sex with my girl friend and I just couldn't get an erection. I felt so good knowing I had lost all my manhood at that point; after that I never really had an erection again.

Finally after four years I had SRS. For the first year it was great, exploring getting to know my new body, seeing what I had missed all my life. I came to feel very comfortable with myself, and actually the desire to be a woman stopped. I didn't know what happened. I felt as though I had made a terrible mistake. After a year of still feeling the same, I began to see myself as trapped, and having to live as a woman. After a while the good feelings came back; but instead of feeling great being a woman, I now felt great being trapped as a woman.

All the difficulties associated with being one began to give me pleasure, for instance: having to wear a bra and pantyhose, having to put on makeup when you are running late in the morning, having to sit to pee, wiping myself while I remembered how easy it had been before when I could just stand and pee, having to keep up with fashion, torturing my feet in heels, knowing that I at times was judged on how I looked, and being treated as a second class person. These things turn me on greatly now, knowing what I have given up. I have begun seeing a therapist regarding my feelings, and I know that while I may have made a mistake having SRS, the truth is I really love having to pass and live with my secret regret.

[Lynn]

This was a thread someone made just asking a simple personal question, but it has somehow degraded into petty fighting on who has the rights views.

I guess this is why we can't have nice things.

[lilacwoman]

the original post was the question of should the person give up a miserable lonely male life in th ehope that transitioning to female would be better.
the attractive sister shows the potential feminising and most transitioners who persevere do claim to be happier so the only way to answer the question is to transition or at least fem up and see what it feels like knowing that it may be some months or years before feminiing seems complete.
roll the dice or toss the coin or stay miserable.

[pretty]

I definitely agree that there are indeed people that believe themselves to be Autogynephilic although in reality they are transsexuals, but I meant actual Autogynephilics, that want's to transition because of Erotic reasons, rather than Gender Identity-reasons.

It's funny because people around here actually deny the identity of  ->-bleeped-<-cs because they're afraid of having too much in common with them! Isn't that ironic!  ->-bleeped-<-phobia! Haha 

[RhinoP]

Honestly, I'll be honest with the OP and say that to be able to as much as "pass" as a woman, jaw/chin surgery is likely needed - he does have a very large jaw and chin line that simply occurs on maybe 0.5% of the female population, that 0.5% of those women still being considered ugly regardless. Beauty is (maybe in Africa or the Medieval Days) subjective, gender usually isn't. You also do have a nose that appears more masculine than not, but I would leave that until after an improvement in the jaw and chin - it's much more common for a girl to have a masculine nose than a super-masculine jawline. One good thing is that, like me, you have very feminine eyes and having FFS will really bring them out.

Otherwise, I just don't think there's much you can do for now if you don't want the people your age to poke jokes at you. At your age (my age too) you will be joked about if you transition while literally looking very masculine, "->-bleeped-<-" will be the first thing that pops into peoples' heads. You say you won't be happy as a badly passing or very ugly female, and I say that while you still have some confidence about you (you're very good looking "as a guy" - you should at least be able to make many friends and snag high paying jobs without really even trying), try to save up enough money to have a FFS procedure or two. It's changed so many lives for the better.

Now, before anyone accuses me of being rude, the reality is that the jawline, chin, nose, and forehead are some of the features most reactive to male androgens, and these features only grow to large proportions if a body secretes a high level of those androgens. Absolutely no natal girls develop masculinizations of these features unless their body has a hormonal imbalance that causes too many growth hormones to be secreted. It just is very rare among natal females, and these features on men do hinder passing by extreme amounts, not to mention, if the person wants to achieve a generally (sexually) attractive appearance. It's what sucks about the human growth process, it's not my fault, I suffer from the effects of it more than most folks do.

[Ultimus]

Well I talked to my psychiatrist and he agreed that after 2 years of not being able to make these feelings go away, that it's a good idea to explore the other direction. He's sending me to a gender identity specialist in our city and we're going to see what she says. He says that we'll be able to determine to go on hormones and what not.

Honestly, I'll be honest with the OP and say that to be able to as much as "pass" as a woman, jaw/chin surgery is likely needed - he does have a very large jaw and chin line that simply occurs on maybe 0.5% of the female population, that 0.5% of those women still being considered ugly regardless. Beauty is (maybe in Africa or the Medieval Days) subjective, gender usually isn't. You also do have a nose that appears more masculine than not, but I would leave that until after an improvement in the jaw and chin - it's much more common for a girl to have a masculine nose than a super-masculine jawline. One good thing is that, like me, you have very feminine eyes and having FFS will really bring them out.

Otherwise, I just don't think there's much you can do for now if you don't want the people your age to poke jokes at you. At your age (my age too) you will be joked about if you transition while literally looking very masculine, "->-bleeped-<-" will be the first thing that pops into peoples' heads. You say you won't be happy as a badly passing or very ugly female, and I say that while you still have some confidence about you (you're very good looking "as a guy" - you should at least be able to make many friends and snag high paying jobs without really even trying), try to save up enough money to have a FFS procedure or two. It's changed so many lives for the better.

Now, before anyone accuses me of being rude, the reality is that the jawline, chin, nose, and forehead are some of the features most reactive to male androgens, and these features only grow to large proportions if a body secretes a high level of those androgens. Absolutely no natal girls develop masculinizations of these features unless their body has a hormonal imbalance that causes too many growth hormones to be secreted. It just is very rare among natal females, and these features on men do hinder passing by extreme amounts, not to mention, if the person wants to achieve a generally (sexually) attractive appearance. It's what sucks about the human growth process, it's not my fault, I suffer from the effects of it more than most folks do.

No, I appreciate honesty. Lying to me and saying, "Oh you will look just like a female!" doesn't help me.