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What is a transsexual woman?

Started by Mahsa Tezani, December 09, 2011, 05:04:26 PM

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AbraCadabra

I had "no interaction with any sort of gender bending people throughout my live..." either.
In fact I only cross-dressed 2 times I can ever recall in 40 years, and that was for Halloween during my Air-Force time, and some or other party in the 70s.

I had much later minor contact with some lesbians (ex's lover and friends), a gay male (son's ex-teacher) with sometimes an odd friend of his.
All this would, I suggest to make me bolt straight - yet here I am transsexual.
Never could tune into male-gay sexually. They of course tuned into me – but got frustrated by my "doing the talk and not walking the walk" i.e. getting laid, doing anal, admiring dick, but I just don't for care for it – really not.

It may well be this huge diversity in background that makes it so tricky to fit us all under one cap/umbrella?

Thanks for the input,
Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Nurse With Wound

I haven't had any direct contact with any homosexual people really, apart from one guy in my high school who was never openly gay and only recently came out now that I hardly talk with him anymore. And it's the same for me as well, I could never be a homosexual male, hell it never even crossed my mind when I was figuring things out it was and always has been "I'm a girl".

But yeah, there are so many varying trans experiences yet we all share a common goal, at least to an extent, some people a little further than others. The problem is, is that people tend to think theirs is the only "true" one.
Scaring away, my ghosts.
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Jen61

Doctoral Theses from University of Gothenburg /\nDoktorsavhandlingar från Göteborgs universite
Incidence sex ratio gender identity disorder regret phenomenology attitudes aromatase androgen receptor estrogen receptor candidate gene
Description: Transsexualism denotes a condition in which the gender identity-the personal sense of being a man or a woman-contradicts the bodily sex characteristics. This thesis is based on three
independent surveys about transsexualism.
FIRST, all 233 subjects applying for sex reassignment in Sweden during 1972-1992 were retrospectively examined through medical records. The incidence of applying for sex reassignment was 0.17/100,000 individuals over 15 years of age and per year. The male-to-female (M-F)/female-to-male (F-M) ratio was 1.4/1. With the exception of an incidence peak related to the legislation regulating sex reassignment in the early 1970s, the incidence has remained fairly stable since the first estimates in Sweden in the late 1960s. The M-F (n=134) and F-M (n=99) groups were phenomenologically compared. M-F transsexuals were older, and more often had a history of marriage and children than their F-M counterparts. M-F transsexuals also had more heterosexual experience. F-M transsexuals, on the other hand, more frequently reported cross-gender behaviour in childhood than did M-F transsexuals. It is concluded that transsexualism is manifested differently in males and females. The regret frequency (defined as applying for reversal to the original sex) was 3.8%. Prognostic factors for regret were, 'a poor support from the family', and 'belonging to the secondary group of transsexuals' (denotes people who develop transsexualism only after a significant period of transvestism or homosexuality). SECOND, 28 M-F transsexuals and 30 male controls were investigated. To test the hypothesis that genes coding for proteins involved in the sexual differentiation of the brain influence the susceptibility of transsexualism, we analysed: (1) a tetra nucleotide polymorphism of the aromatase gene, (2) a CAG repeat sequence in the first exon of the gene coding for the androgen receptor, and (3) a CA repeat polymorphism of the estrogen receptor beta gene. Results support the notion that the gender identity is related to the sex steroid-driven sexual differentiation of the brain, and that certain genetic variants of three of the genes critically involved in this process, may enhance the susceptibility for transsexualism.THIRD, a questionnaire comprising questions about attitudes towards transsexualism and transsexuals was mailed to a random national sample (n=998) of Swedish residents, 18-75 years of age. The response rate was 67%. The results showed that a majority supports the possibility for transsexuals to undergo sex reassignment. However, 63% thought that the individual should bear the expenses for it. In addition, a majority supported the transsexuals' right to get married in their new sex, and their right to work with children. Transsexuals' right to adopt and raise children was supported by 43% whereas 41% opposed this. The results indicated that those who believed that transsexualism is caused by psychological factors had a more restrictive view on transsexualism than people who held a biological view
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justmeinoz

My take on this question is based on the Existentialism I have come to realise I have been practicing since I started transition.

What meaning we attach to the term is determined by our consciousness, and what choices we make as a result.

Mahsa has made certain choices in her life, Axe'lle has made others, and I have made different ones again.  These have led to different actions.  All are equally valid.

Whether Mahsa doesn't accept the data provided by the latest research is irrelevant.  What matters to her is her choices and actions.  As long as she doesn't try to force her opinions on others, I will treat her's with respect, and defend her right to hold them, even if I believe she is mistaken.  If she doesn't treat others with the respect they deserve I will call her out on that. 

There is an urgent need to resurrect the qualities of respect, nobility and dignity, here and in society generally. They are not something that belongs to the Roman Republic or Medieval Knights, but something we can practice in our daily lives now.

To me a "transsexual woman", is a woman with a transsexual history.  It is two words, it is not the person themselves, who is unique and so beyond precise definition.

And that's my two bob's worth.  Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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MsDazzler

Well, I think it is difficult for most of you guys to understaqnd where Masha is coming from, but I do - because like her, I've been actively invovled in the LGBT community so I've seen people from all walks of life.

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Annah

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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) I have heard of at least one person who calls herself 'a reluctant transsexual' this person was in her words an effeminate child and was on a regular bases sexually abused as a child, she now believes this had something to do with her wanting a sex change...

::) So as you can see there's more than one reason as to why transsexual women believe they are transsexual women...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Jen61

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 02:08:10 PM
Kia Ora,

::) I have heard of at least one person who calls herself 'a reluctant transsexual' this person was in her words an effeminate child and was on a regular bases sexually abused as a child, she now believes this had something to do with her wanting a sex change...

::) So as you can see there's more than one reason as to why transsexual women believe they are transsexual women...

Metta Zenda :)

A guy walk in an emergency room and demand SRS to match his female identity. Family reports he has never vocalized or demonstrated any CD/TG/TS/TV. For the next three days his demands continue. On the fourth day he stops his demands for SRS and his class to be female. Toxicological examination demonstrated high level of some of the ingredients present in the nasal inhaler Vicks; patient acknowledge having smoked the contents of of a vicks inhaler.

No doubt that the mind can be bent and change by trauma or drugs, but here we are talking about the majority of TS people. As I posted before GID is biological in origen and no doubt modified by environmental and sociological factors.
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Anatta

Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 02:36:12 PM
, but here we are talking about the majority of TS people. As I posted before GID is biological in origen and no doubt modified by environmental and sociological factors.

Kia Ora Jen,

::) A transsexual is a transsexual is a transsexual...No matter what direction one is coming from, it's all subjective..."I think [I am] therefore I am [transsexual] !"...But only time will tell if this thought holds any truth !

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Mahsa Tezani

Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 02:36:12 PM
A guy walk in an emergency room and demand SRS to match his female identity. Family reports he has never vocalized or demonstrated any CD/TG/TS/TV. For the next three days his demands continue. On the fourth day he stops his demands for SRS and his class to be female.

You seem to have a lot of proof on chromosomes, psychological evidence for why you're female. What are you tryin to prove? That your more female than the rest of us. From your "I was always female" stuff. The stuff I always hear from older transitioners... It seems to be an endless mantra by older transitioners. While I completely understand why they say such... Other people have different perspectives on transsexual identity that don't match the textbook examples.

I support you Jen61, but you've also had six children and were married for 20+ years. I definitely think there's some overcompensation going on. Much of our conflict has been because I have no problem with my past, I am not gonna deny that I was a gay male or anything. That person I was years ago is still me. You on the other hand, were living your life in a very traditional masculine role for the past 20+ years. You presented as a straight man and although you're a lez now, I don't think the apple falls from the tree. A straight man and a lez woman are polar opposites in many aspects. Transition rarely changes personality and the soul is always the same.

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Jen61

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 11, 2011, 03:29:52 PM
You seem to have a lot of proof on chromosomes, psychological evidence for why you're female. What are you tryin to prove? That your more female than the rest of us. From your "I was always female" stuff. The stuff I always hear from older transitioners... It seems to be an endless mantra by older transitioners. While I completely understand why they say such... Other people have different perspectives on transsexual identity that don't match the textbook examples.

I support you Jen61, but you've also had six children and were married for 20+ years. I definitely think there's some overcompensation going on. Much of our conflict has been because I have no problem with my past, I am not gonna deny that I was a gay male or anything. That person I was years ago is still me. You on the other hand, were living your life in a very traditional masculine role for the past 20+ years. You presented as a straight man and although you're a lez now, I don't think the apple falls from the tree. A straight man and a lez woman are polar opposites in many aspects. Transition rarely changes personality and the soul is always the same.

I am at awe at the clarity of your thinking. Who am I to argue with you ? All I have to say is "Amen"
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El

I consider myself transgendered because i vary from traditional gender roles, its a blanket term. I consider myself transexual because i have and for as long as i can remember always have identified my own gender identity as female where my biological gender so to speak is male. Although there is a huge scope of transgendered people i find that my own experiences fit very nicely into the medically pre-defined definitions of these words, transgendered and transexual.

The only time in my life i consider myself to  have been a "crossdresser" was when i was in boy-mode pre-transition, the last time i cross dressed was the day before i went full time. Now i accept that many people belive they are transvestites etc and then later realize they are transexuals but i do believe if we are sticking to actual meanings of these words the two are mutually exclusive (unless maybe there was a FTM transexual who did a drag act or some other rare case?)

I believe when the doctors say "only you can decide if you are transexual" they mean only you can decide whether you truelly believe/feel that your internal gender does not match your exterior gender. They do not mean, you can take a word and make it mean something else. Fair play if you dont fit within the definded catagory of what a transexual is, by no means let anyone put you down for it or try to label you somethign you are not, call yourself transgendered and leave it at that or call youself a human being? I just take issue with the hijacking of words that have well defined meanings. It sucks to be labeled as something you dont feel you are and i understand some people in the community loath all of these words and labels BUT the reason for having these labels is for people who DO fit into them to be able to express ideas and have people udnerstand what is trying to be said.

Im sure if i was to say "I identify as a trainspotter because i like to eat cake" people would take an issue in that is not what a trainspotter is.
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Jen61

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
Kia Ora Jen,
A transsexual is a transsexual is a transsexual...No matter what direction one is coming from, it's all subjective...
Metta Zenda

But the laws that enslave us, or the absence of law that protect us, or the absence of health service for us are not subjective, they are a reality

Educating the decision makers, religious leaders, and the general public on the biological underpinnings of GID will no doubt will result on la favorable laws and in a changes in public opinion and acceptance.   

The results indicated that those who believed that transsexualism is caused by psychological factors had a more restrictive view on transsexualism than people who held a biological view
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El

Its probably worth mentioning. My parents are still together, my father worked as a landscape gardener (very masculine job) and my mother was in sales and marketing before i was born and has been a stay at home mum/ ebay power seller ever since. I have a straight brother who has no trouble with the ladies and I am not aware of any abuse in my past.
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stldrmgrl

Okay, I am in awe of this discussion and quite frankly, I really shouldn't be surprised.  Just for kicks, I'll reiterate the dictionary terminology of "transsexual".

Quote
trans·sex·u·al
   [trans-sek-shoo-uhl]
noun
1.
a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2.
a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

Wow, do you see what I see?  Or rather do you not see what I don't?  It doesn't mention a source of the transsexualism; it doesn't say it must be biological nor does it say it must be caused.  Hmm, that's interesting.  I'd say the greatest definition of all, is the actual one because it encompasses all of the thrown around opinions and comments within this thread, into one term; oh look, that term is transsexual!

I mean, seriously.  There is no evidence to support anything as to the source or cause of transsexualism, thus it just is.  If you are one gender and have desires to be the opposite, ding ding ding - you win!  Aside from society's games and discriminative regulations, there are no try outs, there is no test to pass; if you feel you are transsexual and you can read the above definition and say without a doubt that it applies to you as your belief you are transsexual, then you are.  As mentioned, terminology cannot be bent to fit a criteria if is not included in the definition of that term, plain and simple.

I love reading these arguments, I really do.  They get no where and no one is going to change their opinion, which is the most fascinating of it all; it's your opinion.  Do you know why "agree to disagree" exists?  Because opinions contain no fact, thus debate of opinion is something that can go on for eternity.  Convincing the general public, government and health care providers of transgender needs, does not require the factual knowledge of the source of transsexualism.  Why?  Because we don't know it, and as soon as we all start bickering with each other as to what we each believe the cause/source of it is, everyone is going to have it in their minds that if we the transsexuals cannot come up with an agreement as to what the hell is going on and why, how can we possibly take them seriously?  Anti-discrimination rights exist because of people fighting for what they believe in as an expression of who they are.  Not knowing the cause does not in any way invalidate a true issue and certainly does not attribute to failure in anti-discrimination rights.

Get over yourselves, seriously.  Agree to disagree on opinion, and accept that transsexualism has no known factual cause as of yet; this attitude is what will closely knit our community and aid us in equal rights.
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Sweet Blue Girl

I define myself a transsexual in drag now, continuing the male stereotype till the end of this i hope short time.
I just wish world would come out easier than it is even in this forum.
It's right that definitins are done to understand things, and help people in the beginnings to confront such themes, butwe're far from that self-conscience state, and i guess reality is more than a sum of definitions, otherwise we should have an ID card a mile long.
I think that i trust my soul enough to don't care about definitions anymore, i am just a woman, ->-bleeped-<- for me is the passage from a desolate maleness to my reality, transsexualism is who I am for the society altough I just feel another type of woman, blondes, brunes, redhaireds and transsexuals.
I dont like people who uses science to defend themselves or to attack just as it was a religion. Science tells it's genetic, but we are the ones who make questions to science and search too much or too few, because there are really more than two genders, there are man women and something in between, androginous, intersexed and so on, who knows how many. And if someone doesn't fit into transsexualism genetically but maybe fits in another situation who are we to use our lacking science agains them?
I agree with Gracie on the most part.
I also think that older transsexuals are like pioneers of our history so i pay respect.
But like in every situations age makes people conservative to new frontiers. In the end I dream a word in wich  parents will raise their transsexuals childs without all the sufferings I paid because I wasn't understood or i didn't express myself well and I did not understand the answers given. i dream of this world for the children i will never have.
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Lily

The cause really doesn't matter to me. If someone says they are a woman/man/other, that's enough for me.
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Jen61

Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 11, 2011, 04:21:13 PM
I mean, seriously.  There is no evidence to support anything as to the source or cause of transsexualism, thus it just is.   
Biol Psychiatry. 2009 Jan 1;65(1):93-6. Epub 2008 Oct 28.
Androgen receptor repeat length polymorphism associated with male-to-female transsexualism.
Hare L, Bernard P, Sánchez FJ, Baird PN, Vilain E, Kennedy T, Harley VR.
Source
Human Molecular Genetics Laboratory, Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates. We explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization and/or feminization. Specifically, we assessed the role of disease-associated repeat length polymorphisms in the androgen receptor (AR), estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta), and aromatase (CYP19) genes.
METHODS:
Subject-control analysis included 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. Associations and interactions were investigated between CAG repeat length in the AR gene, CA repeat length in the ERbeta gene, and TTTA repeat length in the CYP19 gene and male-to-female transsexualism.
RESULTS:
A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p=.04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or ERbeta genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism were identified.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.


Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism
Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism
Lauren Hare, Pascal Bernard, Francisco J. Sánchez, Paul N. Baird, Eric Vilain, Trudy Kennedy,
and Vincent R. Harley. BIOL PSYCHIATRY 2009;65:93–96
Background: There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates. We
explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization
and/or feminization. Specifically, we assessed the role of disease-associated repeat length polymorphisms in the androgen receptor (AR),
estrogen receptor _ (ER_), and aromatase (CYP19) genes.
Methods: Subject-control analysis included 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. Associations and interactions
were investigated between CAG repeat length in the AR gene, CA repeat length in the ER_ gene, and TTTA repeat length in the CYP19 gene
and male-to-female transsexualism.
Results: A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat
lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p_.04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or
ER_ genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism
lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism
were identified.
Conclusions: This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.





Sex steroid-related genes and male-to-female Transsexualism
Susanne Henningssona, Lars Westberga, Staffan Nilssonb,
Bengt Lundstro¨mc, Lisa Ekseliusd, Owe Bodlunde, Eva Lindstro¨md,
Monika Hellstranda, Roland Rosmondf, Elias Erikssona, Mikael Lande´ng,*
Department of Pharmacology, Institute of Physiology and Pharmacology, Go¨teborg University,
Go¨teborg, Sweden Department of Mathematical Statistics, Chalmers University of Technology, Go¨teborg, Sweden Section of Psychiatry, Institute of Clinical Neuroscience, Go¨teborg University, Go¨teborg, Sweden Department of Neuroscience, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden
eDepartment of Psychiatry, UmeaUniversity, Umea, Sweden
fDepartment of Heart and Lung Diseases, Go¨teborg University, Go¨teborg, Sweden
gDepartment of Clinical Neuroscience, Section of Psychiatry S:t Go¨ran, Karolinska Institutet,
Stockholm 112 81, Sweden
Received 16 November 2004; received in revised form 12 February 2005; accepted 14 February 2005
Summary Transsexualism is characterised by lifelong discomfort with the
assigned sex and a strong identiÞcation with the opposite sex. The cause of
transsexualism is unknown, but it has been suggested that an aberration in the early
sexual differentiation of various brain structures may be involved. Animal
experiments have revealed that the sexual differentiation of the brain is mainly
due to an inßuence of testosterone, acting both via androgen receptors (ARs) andÑ
after aromatase-catalyzed conversion to estradiolÑvia estrogen receptors (ERs). The
present study examined the possible importance of three polymorphisms and their
pairwise interactions for the development of male-to-female transsexualism: a CAG
repeat sequence in the Þrst exon of the AR gene, a tetra nucleotide repeat
polymorphism in intron 4 of the aromatase gene, and a CA repeat polymorphism in
intron 5 of the ERb gene. Subjects were 29 Caucasian male-to-female transsexuals
and 229 healthy male controls. Transsexuals differed from controls with respect to
the mean length of the ERb repeat polymorphism, but not with respect to the length
of the other two studied polymorphisms. However, binary logistic regression analysis
revealed signiÞcant partial effects for all three polymorphisms, as well as for the
interaction between the AR and aromatase gene polymorphisms, on the risk of
developing transsexualism. Given the small number of transsexuals in the study,
the results should be interpreted with the utmost caution. Further study of the
putative role of these and other sex steroid-related genes for the development of
transsexualism  may, however, be worthwhile.
2005 Elsevier Ltd. All

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xXRebeccaXx

I dont really think you're transsexual, some degree of transgender maybe, but not transsexual
Even in death, may I be triumphant.
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El

I dont know why im transexual, i just know i am, i think thats all that matters. I believe it to be something biological as i see no environmental factors it could have been but i studied psychology and i know that something as small as a mother panicing about a spider on one occasion in front of a baby can cause life-long arachnaphobia in that child. So i wont discount a environmental influence.
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