Yes, you pass. Ummm, no you don't.

[Tazia of the Omineca]

I admit I am prejudice. I don't mean to be I just am.
It's probably just because I am scared of like everything.

[mixie]

I admit I am prejudice. I don't mean to be I just am.
It's probably just because I am scared of like everything.

That's probably one of the most honest comments I've seen.   I think people try to combat their fears and insecurities by being "realists" but the reality some people are seeing just doesn't match what me and several other people I know have seen.

[eli77]

What the hell are you disgusted by?    Prejudice might not be your reality but it certainly is for many others.

Mixie might be too polite to point out specific examples, but I'm not:

We at least try to look like we belong there.

sorry but if you dont wanna get mistaken for another gender, dont dress yourself like it. otherwise you shouldn't WHINE about the cruelty of society.

Really guys? We are gonna be the gender police now? This is the kind of stuff that makes me question why I still frequent these forums. I'm wearing a men's shirt today, I guess I must deserve to be tossed out of women's bathrooms too.

It's one thing to say, "people are prejudiced, that's really ->-bleeped-<-ty, but that's how it is." It's another to be complicit in that perspective.

[mixie]

It's one thing to say, "people are prejudiced, that's really ->-bleeped-<-ty, but that's how it is." It's another to be complicit in that perspective.

THIS!

This is getting out of hand. Look - when I saw her I thought she was a man. If I saw her in a ladies' restroom I would do what the guard did and query it, but when she proved she was female it should have ended there and then with an apology from the guard. That is where this went wrong.

If you look like a man and act like a man then of course you will be queried if you are somewhere reserved for females - after all it COULD be a man in the ladies' room. Someone has to check, but the check should be courteous.

Beverley

This except the "proved"  If she said she was female, it should have been dropped.

[eli77]

This is getting out of hand. Look - when I saw her I thought she was a man. If I saw her in a ladies' restroom I would do what the guard did and query it, but when she proved she was female it should have ended there and then with an apology from the guard. That is where this went wrong.

If you look like a man and act like a man then of course you will be queried if you are somewhere reserved for females - after all it COULD be a man in the ladies' room. Someone has to check, but the check should be courteous.

Beverley

I'm just going to say that I entirely, 100% disagree, and then turn it over to the brilliant and talented Ivan E. Coyote to respond to this: http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Dear_Lady_in_the_Womens_Washroom-10801.aspx

[mixie]

I said 'proved' because that is what she did. She produced ID. It should have ended there and then.

Beverley

Oh I know what you meant.  You were just explaining what happened.  But I just pointed it out to emphasize. 

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

So then, what should happen when a man DOES lurk in the ladies with the intention of pleasuring himself by the simple act of being there?  Should he not be challenged in case he is a lesbian passing as male?

Beverley

Sorry, not taking the bait.  The desires of the cisnormative, heteronormative patriarchy are irrelevant when discussing the importance of the right to self-identification of trans and queer people.

[mixie]

Here's the thing for me.   She was referred to as "IT"  so this tells me that she actually clocked as a transgender female.  If she was clocked as a cisgendered female that looked like a guy,  the security guard would have been embarrassed for her.  So her demeanor and gestures must have come across as feminine.  Then the guard thinks "it's one of those queers" and decides to make a case out of it.  Otherwise he would have been embarrassed and sorry for her, if she looked so masculine.

You can tell that this wasn't a normal mix up.  This was a delicacy of sexism and transphobia.   Grrr


Compare   A security guard sees a man looking in the window in the back of a store.   He comes up and says "what are you doing"  The guy says "I work here and I left my keys inside"  the security guard calls the cops.   The cops come and the guard says "Well I saw this Ni**er trying to break in"   then it turns out that the guy was telling the truth. 


The fact that the guard called him the N word shows that the reason he didn't believe him is because the guard is racist.   He would prove it himself.  This is the same thing.  The reason the guard stopped her was because he was transbiased.   Not because he got confused.   

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

Fair enough.

Enjoy....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1385889/Joel-Hardman-wore-female-rubber-mask-wig-spy-women-public-toilets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388343/Starbucks-Peeping-Tom-William-Zafra-Velasco-filmed-45-women-children-toilet.html


Beverley

Yeah.  Those things are happening already, even with all the intolerance in place to ensure that trans people don't "upset" the cis people with their presence.

Honestly, I don't believe that something as trivial to one's need to urinate necessitates a sex-stratified system in the first place (and, what's more, I believe that the concept of legal sex / gender should be abolished altogether), but the least we can do is allow people to use the restroom without having their dignity stripped down in front of their faces with a "gender check".

[missjanealice]

can we get back on topic and leave the "bathroom BS" behind?

I think it is interesting because I often get a "no, you don't pass" from posting pictures but I get ma'am'd all the time. I even have people refer to me as so-and-so's daughter/ sister. Pictures simply can not answer the age old question of "do I pass". They can however give us good feedback on things to improve and I think the idea is more "critique my picture" and less "do I pass".

[mixie]

can we get back on topic and leave the "bathroom BS" behind?

I think it is interesting because I often get a "no, you don't pass" from posting pictures but I get ma'am'd all the time. I even have people refer to me as so-and-so's daughter/ sister. Pictures simply can not answer the age old question of "do I pass". They can however give us good feedback on things to improve and I think the idea is more "critique my picture" and less "do I pass".

It's interesting missjanealice.  In your avatar picture.  I would say 100 percent pass.  But you posted another picture from a different angle.  I would clock you on that one.   And this is why pictures are not good indicators.

I look horrible in photographs.  One reason is that I am usually taller than everyone taking the pictures.  So I think I look huge and fat with a double chin.   And some people say "Oh no you look lovely!"  But I don't look like I think I look.   Sometimes people really compliment me on my looks when I am out.   But it's more do with how I act than how I look.

Sometimes I see people on here putting on make up and trying to make that picture look good.  I know that in person I would be thinking they don't pass.   

[AbraCadabra]

* And some people say "Oh no you look lovely!"  But I don't look like I think I look.   Sometimes people really compliment me on my looks when I am out.   But it's more [to] do with how I act than how I look. *

And that about also wraps it up for me also.
One more thing that plays into it all is 'expectations' - we actually more often see only what we want to see!

If we have a heightened awareness of the Xgender of another person it makes it almost automatically difficult NOT to nit-pick...

Look at my avatar and it can be interpreted as both – male or female – at least in my estimate.

Axélle

[missjanealice]

* And some people say "Oh no you look lovely!"  But I don't look like I think I look.   Sometimes people really compliment me on my looks when I am out.   But it's more [to] do with how I act than how I look. *

And that about also wraps it up for me aslo.
One more thing that plays into it all is 'expectations' - we actually more often see only what we want to see!

If we have a heightened awareness of the Xgender of another person it makes it almost automatically difficult NOT to nit-pick...

Look at my avatar and it can be interpreted as both – male or female – at least in my estimate.

Axélle

What-eves Axelle... your avatar is superbly fem and you have improved a lot!

[AbraCadabra]

Oh thanks sweetie, must be as I said --- we often, mostly see only what we want to see?
Yourself, as was said earlier, look nice, very nice, and femme IMO.

It's like that gg looking in the mirror and saying: "I don't like what I see!" (bad hair day?) and her friend goes: "But you look just GREAT!"
And actually meaning it...

Thanks again for correcting my 'misconception' :-)
Axélle

Note: "We do not see things as they are – we see things as we are"

[Stephe]

It's like that gg looking in the mirror and saying: "I don't like what I see!" (bad hair day?) and her friend goes: "But you look just GREAT!"
And actually meaning it...

The other day I RUSHED out of the house, it was a 30 minutes from out of the bed to out the door. Shower/ makeup/pick outfit etc. My friend I hang out with was like "Wow you look great today" and I was thinking "uh no I don't"

[Keaira]

I like my hair. It styles itself! I kid you not. For the past 3 days I've had my hair parted on the right because I woke up the day after washing my hair and it was like that. So I pulled most of it back and put it in a ponytail. It's different. I like it. For now.
But whenever you see my hair in a different style, it's because my hair did it. I dont know if it makes me less passable, but I'm finally coming to terms that my forehead is not as big as I think it is.

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

Most of humanity disagrees with you on that point.

All the more reason for me to advocate my position.

This particular incident could have been handled much, much better with dignity intact on all sides. I do not think this was a 'trans' incident, I think it was simple stupidity mixed with rudeness.
Beverley

Anytime people don't subscribe to sex-essentialist, oppositionally sexist stereotypes and make it public with their expression, society places a judgment on them, and that societal transphobia isn't only an issue for the trans community, as we saw from this video.

It was also bred of stupidity and rudeness, but I think it's important to be aware that that rudeness has a source in society-wide transphobia and binarism.

[Keaira]

How is this for passing, vocally at least. This happened to me at 9am this morning.

I was woken by the phone ringing and in my half awake state, I gave my usual 'Hello"

The woman on the other end asked if she was speaking to Angela, my wife. I said 'No." So then I was asked if this was the Finlay household, she was trying top get ahold of my son's parents. I told her she had the right number. So she went though her speel, asking if I thought it would be beneficial to have extra help for my son in class, etc. I said sure. Who wouldn't want help for their childs education, right? So she finally askes me.. And this is what though me for a loop... She asked if I was my son's grandma, step-mother or guardian. I said no, I'm his Dad.

"Sorry?"

I repeated louder, "I'm his Dad!"

Silence for almost a minute. Then I sighed and said "Don't worry, I get that a lot."

So she gives me a number to call to get my son enrolled in a program at his school and she ends it with "Have a nice day Ma'am."

I stood there staring at the phone wondering what the hell just happened. I told this woman I was my son's father and she still called me Ma'am. then I hung up and went back to bed.

here's the thing though. I made no effort to sound feminine!

[wendy]

Keaira I have TS MTF friend that speaks in her male voice.  She was always called Ma'am in her male voice on phone and did not need to change her voice when she transitioned at 62. Cool.
.....
Axelle your avatar is female and you keep looking better.  Maybe that is why you are being watched.  People are watching how you keep looking better within months.

............
Miss Jane Alice your avatar is female.  You look as if you are athletic and female swimmer.  Nice picture.

[YinYanga]

4/5 times strangers on the phone call me 'Ma'am' ...difficult and embarassing when you have to correct them, and they usually end up saying it regardless...in the end I don't mind, maybe there's hope I can voice-transition in real life aswell when everything HRT-related gets started