Yes, you pass. Ummm, no you don't.

[Dahlia]

What's even worse than the natural-hormones only 'you pass fine, all woman' etc is post FFS pics showing the final results after a year or so.

Comments as 'excellent results' 'you must be thrilled', '100% passabele' while I sometimes see stratospherical lifted eyebrows, hideous cheekimplants making a face 'look off', sometimes piggynoses, a strange overstuffed pillow face,  a (fairly completey) surgical altered face etc.

Sometimes one of these 'features' sometimes more, sometimes all of 'em....

Sometimes the MTF in question realises that herself and is looking for revision, sometimes it works as a 'magical token'  because she had FFS anyway with a 'famous, good doctor'  talking about the new clothes of the emperor....(and this strange, almost godlike fixation on 'the good dr'.....she paid a large amount of money after all...)

Damage done....terrible, much more worse than telling 'white lies' to a unaltered unpassable MTF. That is: if someone like a post FFS patient like that is gona give 'advice' based on her own 'excellent results'...

All this made me think not twice but several times over  what my FFS needs exactly were and how to realise them *WITHOUT* looking surgically altered.

I had my FFS late 2004 with dr Chettawut who firstly mentioned: 'your nose is ok. No need to change it, it's gonna look unnatural'.
A vey clear and good sign to proceed with dr C.

(both dr Suporn and dr Noorman van der Dussen recommended me a nose job during a 2002 and 2003 real life consultation....without me asking any advice about my nose that is.
BUT my natural nose is short, rounded with a slightly upturned tip and a low, scooped nosebridge...I realised all of a sudden that 'the good' FFS surgeons tend to tell you what they think what a MTF likes to hear.

Plus they want to earn money with performing unnecessary procedures of course. Good reason to turn both down. My nose  would have ended up mutilated )

Then dr C gave me the natural results I requested, after showing him post FFS pics telling  him what I most certainly NOT wanted.
I am pleased with the results and very, very happy I managed to listen to my gut instincts considering FFS surgeons and their 'ethics'.
And *not* taking any advice of post FFS MTF's with 'excellent results')

Thing is.....bio women who had had (too much) plastic surgery often look like MTF's.
Same thing goes a 1000 times over for a 'over FFS'd' MTF having had too much or the wrong (tasteless) procedures.

Often 'excellent results', '100% passable' , '100% GG looking on the internet only.

IRL kind of freaky looking, often attracting (negative) attention which they 'explain' as 'of course people look at me, I'm drop dead gorgeous now'...

I've seen it.

[ByeBye]

While waiting on line at the cosmetics store, I saw a boy, about 7, and his mother. He first whispered and then asked loud.

Is that a boy or a girl?

The mother answered... BOY.

So that means I don't pass yet.

As for my night last night, I'm about 75/25 in favor of not passing.

2 people used masculine pronouns around me.

The 4th person actually said girl...

[niamh]

There has always been an epidemic of good-intentioned dishonesty here, and it annoys me too.

I'm ok with generosity and optimism, and people saying that "you'll definitely pass one day, and here are some suggestions on how to get better..." but telling someone they "totally pass right now 100%" when the person really, really doesn't is obviously a lie. It's not helpful, it's the opposite of helpful.

Ditto. Exactly my thoughts on the issue. My feeling is that the point of such photo threads is to give people who ask for it honest feedback. Maybe there should be a thread where people can just post their pictures where commentary is not demanded but if it's the "Will I pass someday?" thread and someone clearly looks male, telling them that they already look like a girl is just moronic.

[Jaime]

Dammit, I knew it!!!


*runs away crying*

[lilacwoman]

[quote author=Mahsa the disco shark . Giving me a huge advantage to most trans.
I just ask my friend/dragmom who is obsessed with trannies and constantly critiques their faces/bodies/etc. Him and I basically concluded being trans is essentially a "full time draq queen" lifestyle...thus makeup is more important and some can't even be saved by ffs. I mean due to bone structure and various other features, no transsexual is gonna be "fool proof". They will always some male characteristics the public will be able to point out and say, "Thats a man". It's a fact of life.
[/quote]

Its also a fact of life that you contradict yourself almost every time you post something.   

'Saved' from what?  Hypocrites like you and your friend?

a fulltime drag queen would get read by everyone - many TS pass so well that they just pass you by on the street and you never notice them.

[Dahlia]

Its also a fact of life that you contradict yourself almost every time you post something.   

'Saved' from what?  Hypocrites like you and your limp wristed ****** friend?

a fulltime drag queen would get read by everyone - many TS pass so well that they just pass you by on the street and you never notice them.

Ehm,  a loooooong time ago I noticed too that gay DQ's are very often much more feminine looking and presenting themselves much more tasteful than most MTF's who happen to be former straight men, often under a bad wig and dressed horribly.
Sometimes they seem to have forgotten about their 'femaleness' and almost walk like John Wayne under a wig and  in drag, so to speak.
And if they all of a sudden remember 'their femaleness' they play 'women' in the worst way imaginable.
I've seen this very often.

Or they are sometimes even downright masculine in their presentation.

Yet they claim to be 'no less of a woman than a born woman'.

It's a funny, yet fascinating phenomenon.

[Bishounen]

Recently I've been reading posts from several girls telling other girls they "totally pass", "definitely pass", "you look all woman", etc and then I look at the pics they're referring to and perhaps something is wrong with my eyes but I just don't see it.

I don't want ya'll to take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be mean or make any of the girls feel bad, I just don't think it's right that we lie to them. I wonder if these girls are saying it just to be nice? Or maybe my transdar is too strong and I know what to look for? Like some people tell me I pass but I don't see it.

Now, some of these girls are totally pretty but pretty=/=passable. So, maybe they're mixing the two?

I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten me a bit.

I totaly agree.
And you know, I actually find that so common strategy quite rude aswell, as the people posting the pics generally asks for honest opinions and to be "blunt", and yet they get an answer that, in my opinion, is ridiculing and almost belittles them and treats them as little children; You know, when a 7-year old have put on some huge dress and smeared lipstick all over half the face and the grown ups goes; "Qoh how beaituful you are!", instead of just honestly helping the child, which it would definitely appriciate the more.


I mean, if someone that looks totally and litterally like a guy, asks for honest opinions on it and wants advice, and gets a "Oh you look 100% female", then Aargh!

No, it's not too sensitive stuff, it is important stuff and if a person wants honest opinions on their looks and what to do to make the best of it, then darn it, give them that help they ask for, for they will need it if they, for instance, wants to be Stealth.


Please note: This ofcourse only applies when honest feedback is asked for- Telling someone that She looks like a guy or that a T-guy looks like a girl when not requested, it is nothing else than rude and is unforgivable.
Again: The honest feedback should only be stated when requested.

[MsDazzler]

i also never say "you pass" anymore unless i see videos of you and you talking in them.

If you want me to know if you pass, then i wanna see you on video and talking. Voice, in my opinion, is the biggest factor in passing.

You can look absolutely beautiful but if you sound like a guy I will be honest and you do not pass nor do you blend in (unless you can go through life without talking).

Does this apply to me? lol. I am deaf and use ASL and don't speak, heh.

[lilacwoman]

so if you see someone with a chunky body wearing shapeless sweatshirt, jeans and trainers walking with a swagger and a face that is rough skinned and hairy and there is no gendered signs such as jewellery, handbag or heels and lots of people stare at it you assume its a bloke in drag when chances are it is either a bull dyke or jobless trash mother?

go through life looking for nonpassing TS and you'll see many TGs.

if you do see these nonpassers forget to do female then it just proves the theory that a true TS will have a genuine inner femaleness that controls everything regardless of what age they transition.
TGs lack this and don't like to know so.

Taking total passability as proof of genuine TSness then only the kids who transition at 5/6/7 are real TS and everyone else is just a TG in need of therapy to act like the male or female they were assigned as at birth and there needs to be laws to keep all these goddam perverts out of the changing rooms of Macy's and for Pete's sake shut all those eastern women's colleges to eradicate lezzies.   

[apple pie]

I would still say pass to those that don't pass to me or most people here but that I think will pass in front of pretty much everyone else.

I don't think that's being dishonest; I think I'm only giving an adjusted opinion that is practical. People generally don't see the tell-tale signs so easily as we do. In fact, those tell-tale signs will make us sometimes think someone is trans when they aren't!

[Eve of chaos]

I constantly post pics in the "do I pass thread" looking fro honest advice.
being out in the real world quite often and on other websites I know that I sadly dont pass.

yet I've only been told I pass really well on here. so I get this is well

what makes me curious is if it bothers some of you and you feel like you should always give real advice why dont you chime in with this real advice?

not being accusing, maybe you do. I just never get it it seems.

[apple pie]

I constantly post pics in the "do I pass thread" looking fro honest advice.
being out in the real world quite often and on other websites I know that I sadly dont pass.

Like someone pointed out earlier, passability in a still picture is quite different from passability when you're actually meeting someone... your demeanour, voice, confidence and so on all affect it greatly. (A not-very-passing voice can already kill off most of the passability...) I don't think it necessarily means people here are being dishonest...

[Mahsa Tezani]

I constantly post pics in the "do I pass thread" looking fro honest advice.
being out in the real world quite often and on other websites I know that I sadly dont pass.

Really? You've said that you pass well in the real world. Btw, you've just began...things are notoriously difficult and awkward in the beginning.

As for other websites, people are d-bags on the net. Besides fb, my pic isn't out there as I am not part of other forums. Just too busy to worry about the opinion of people on the net. There's an actual world out there to live in.

[stldrmgrl]

I love the "redirects" this topic seems to be getting in regards to honesty from one trans person to another.

"Trans people clock extensively."
"Trans people are always looking."
"We have to support each other so I'm not going to be honest."

Let's keep in mind that there are not a chosen few who are the "judges" of passing and well, darn it, we're stuck with their opinions.  The people who post their pictures on these threads are asking other trans people for their honest opinion.  If they wanted the opinion of cis-people, I'm sure they'd ask them.  I find it completely amusing reading the many responses as to why honesty within the trans community cannot be valid in terms of what "real" reaction they will received from the general public.

Here's how I feel.  If you don't want to be honest, fine.  But if it were me asking for opinions and every single response I read was, "omg you pass", I'd be a bit skeptical.  So if honesty is forbidden, I'd recommend adding a disclaimer to each response saying "just trying to be nice!"  We are all grown ups, so if someone says they want blunt honesty, I'm pretty sure they want blunt honesty; if they get defensive over certain comments, oh well, that is their fault for asking for honesty.

As for the discussion of being unable to comment whether someone passes or not based off a photograph alone; no, it cannot be stated as a certainty that in any and all situations the person will pass.  But, if I comment on a photo, I make sure to include the words "judging by this photo" before I share my opinion.  This way, hopefully, it is implied that perhaps in other situations, photographs, videos, etc., my opinion does not necessarily apply.  Furthermore, I don't know as I didn't care to look, but if the people who are saying they'll never be honest are the same ones saying you can't judge by a photo, I find that a bit redundant; it would seem to me it could be audio, video, a thousand pictures from all different angles and lighting or even a real-life meet and greet, and the truth would still never be spoken.

Anyway, that's my rant.

[Mahsa Tezani]

While waiting on line at the cosmetics store, I saw a boy, about 7, and his mother. He first whispered and then asked loud.

Is that a boy or a girl?

The mother answered... BOY.

So that means I don't pass yet.

As for my night last night, I'm about 75/25 in favor of not passing.

2 people used masculine pronouns around me.

The 4th person actually said girl...

The Mom brought her son to the cosmetic store? He might be a future makeup artist, as he has an eye for the gender aesthetics. I did that at a young age, constantly with my Aunt and Mom.

[pebbles]

I stopped visiting that thread for that reason. Specifically I commented on one other persons picture mentioning their hairline was rather severe and counted against them they then got aggy at me because they couldn't do anything about it and made various comments back.

Generally you have some idea if you go outside as to how pepole refer to you and treat you. Of course you can never know for certain because some pepole do genuinely use unusual pronouns or are just polite.

[Mahsa Tezani]

TGs lack this and don't like to know so.

Really? No one would ever mistake the women I work with for anything but female. Being overdone and girly makes people register "female" instead of male.

I posted photos of DQs on this site and people were like, "They could be cis"...yeah, primming yourself and putting you're all into something is better than half assing it.

Whether trans people want to acknowledge it or not. It is DRAG 24/7. No matter the amount of surgery, hormones, or makeup... Your final results depend on how good of a "boy in drag" you make. Hormones, ffs, etc are just the results of applying the "DRAG" 24/7. However, I see ts women as "women". Even though it's been hard for me to call that person "ma'm"... But to even think a majority of ts women are on the same level as GG's is laughable. If you only have one face, you better make it fabulous. But most ts women don't even do that...Like the girls I saw yesterday, I made it sure they knew they weren't as fab as me.

Furthermore, cispeople aren't stupid. I can spot even the best transsexuals because something if always "off". Gay men are the most conditioned, cuz we see everything from every angle. Most of them do drag, most of them know ts's and hun, that looks like BAD DRAG. Yes, gay men will straight up tell a TS they look like crap.

TS women have to work a million times harder to "pass" as ciswomen. You don't have the option of NOT wearing makeup(SUBTLE makeup makes a huge difference) because you weren't technically born "female" bodywise. Maybe in the mind, but no one can see what is going on in your mind. Therefore, you have to present and impress. Because no effort will always look bad.

[Just Shelly]

I'm sure the OP meant this question about MTF's!! I don't understand why you have to make reference to Dairy Drama  Drag Queens all the time. Its a complete different situation! Do they live like they present 24/7/365.

I'm sure you would of thought the woman at the DMV that helped me was trans. She wasn't but she was about 6'2 220 and although not bad looking not pretty.

The difference between a trans and an GG is a GG can look fairly manly, masculine whatever and they still have something that spews female. A trans could pass 100% of the time but if there's any uncertainty about them someone could then start picking out manly features.

[Mahsa Tezani]

I'm sure the OP meant this question about MTF's!! I don't understand why you have to make reference to Dairy Drama  Drag Queens all the time. Its a complete different situation! Do they live like they present 24/7/365.

Some practically do.

Okay, DRAG= DRESSED AS GIRL. You presented as once as male, and are now female 24/7.... You're no different than some of them. It isn't all about heavy makeup or looking like DIVINE. Many of the dq's calmed down either look like MIDs or pretty girls.

But I heard you're suggestions and I'll start referencing cosplayers or furries LOL. DQs do it right... They go from looking like gay men to females better than most of the people here do.

[Eve of chaos]

Like someone pointed out earlier, passability in a still picture is quite different from passability when you're actually meeting someone... your demeanour, voice, confidence and so on all affect it greatly. (A not-very-passing voice can already kill off most of the passability...) I don't think it necessarily means people here are being dishonest...

my voice may not be perfect, but I know it hasnt outted me. I can get away with it on online videogames and most people dont question it.
not worried about my demeanor either. ive always been girly and have been mistaken for a girl form behind many times before transition. so I tihnk I carry myself well

My problems are all in the face and shoulders I think.

but anyway lol. I know most people can tell. if im introduced as female I think they can accept it. because they have someone elses word of my gender. but without that I think everyone knows and is just polite about it.

the problem is I cant get into anyones head. so all i can do is make inferences about my passing.

that and I dont blame anyone for not being able to be honest on here. its hard to tell if someone really passes to you or not when you already know they are trans.