Binary presentation: choosing a gender

[Julian]

I found out a couple days ago that I'll be able to get top surgery late next March. Since then I've been doing pretty much nothing but thinking, reading, and watching youtube videos about it. And a lot of that thinking has been directed at how I'll be able to present afterwards. For everyday, boobs vs no boobs probably won't make that much of a difference. I'll wear my same jeans, t-shirts, sweatshirts, sneakers. But there are a few situations where I'm not sure how to present.

I love to swim, and go to the beach in the summertime. I think it would be wonderful to be able to swim topless. However, aside from the lack of boobs, I won't look like a man. This kind of goes for toplessness in general. It's not like I'd be walking down city streets with no shirt on, but I'm not sure how I feel about having family members, roommates, and beach- or pool-goers see me. I don't think I'd have much of a problem with it, but how would people react? It's not like I'd be walking around with my tits out, but I'm clearly female.

The other issue is situations where a certain level of formality is required. If I present as androgynous to masculine most of the time, I think I'd feel obligated to wear men's formal attire. But I don't really like it. Anything more formal than a shirt and tie doesn't really suit me. I don't look good in suits. For formal events I could probably go either way, but what would I wear to a job interview? A woman could get away with wearing a nice blouse and nice slacks or a skirt. But for every level of formality in men's attire it seems like every article of clothing one wears is dictated. I'm afraid, though, that if I showed up to a job interview in a smart blouse and skirt with women's shoes, it would have a little too much of that boy-in-a-dress vibe. I'm totally cool with that any other day, but it wouldn't help me get hired.

This is getting kind of rambly and disjointed. I know how I would like to present, but I can't seem to reconcile that idea with the rest of my world. If I had my way I'd present as flexibly masculine or feminine depending on the day, go swimming in trunks and no shirt, and probably wear mostly women's clothing for anything more formal than business casual. But I live in the real world, and I'm not sure what to do.

[espo]

Keep in mind I know nothing     but if you went topless but still looked female you might be viewed as a flat chested girl walking around with no top on which is also against the law in some places and in that case if you are still legally female ... well it could be a problem.

The other dilemma about what to wear to a work interview would depend on how you feel at the time and just how formal you have to dress.  It might take some trying on of different styles of clothing to see whats comfortable.  It might actually be fun.

oh, and congrats on going forward with top surgery and that your parents are supporting you  ** thumbs up **

[supremecatoverlord]

Top surgery makes your chest look like it's male sculpted. You likely wouldn't be gendered as female if you went around topless, but I'm kind of wondering why you're getting top surgery if you know you couldn't even pass as "andro" with it; it still seems like you'd be uncomfortable even after having it, possibly even more so. I feel like having top surgery might also be limiting the types of clothes you could wear, especially if you're as gender fluid as you seem to be.  If you're still clearly female, but look as flat as a guy in a t-shirt, people might still stop and stare at you. I guess I'm just confused when you say that you're clearly "female", because that would imply that you would've even pass as androgynous without your shirt on...and that you can't pass for both genders, which is puzzling when it comes the idea of "gendered surgery". I dunno. Perhaps I'm just uninformed, but I could imagine this causing a lot of unwanted social problems for you.

Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. I would like to understand where you're coming from...but I feel like I don't quite yet. Sorry.

[Julian]

I thought about a response to this long enough for my bowl of ramen to get cold , and then long enough to eat it, and I'm still not sure how coherent I can be. 

Basically, this isn't really a social issue. It's an issue of me being comfortable in my body, and that comes before having to deal with it in terms of other people, because I'm around myself a lot more than other people are.

And as I tried to type up more of a response than that, I started to remember that I have no idea what things like masculine and feminine even mean. This happens when I think too hard. I'll try to come back to this in a couple hours.

[supremecatoverlord]

I kind of assumed it wasn't a social issue, but you sort of said that you wouldn't pass. And that's what got me...that you wouldn't pass according to you. I dunno. Sorry. I was just curious. ><

[Nero]

If you pass as female other than the chest, people will likely assume you're just not very well endowed or that you're a breast cancer survivor (especially if they see the scars). Either way, they'll assume it's a sensitive subject and few would be crude enough to bring it up.

I don't know how people will react to what appears to be a topless female with no breasts. Well, actually I did get a small taste of it right after top surgery. I had only been on T a few weeks at the time and didn't pass well. I was on vacation and went swimming in the pool with no shirt. An older lady and a guy who appeared to be her son (or maybe her much younger boyfriend, who knows?) were watching me from the dining area. And then, the 'son' came out and walked by under the guise of messing with his phone.    Later when I entered the dining area, they couldn't take their eyes off me. I don't know if they were trying to work out my gender or trying to get a better look at my non existent breasts but I got a kick out of it. The fascination was very blatant. 

So, if you go around topless and don't pass well as male, people probably will stare.

I really don't think the lack of visible breasts in a woman's blouse or dress will be a problem. I still got gendered female for months after top surgery. I don't think anyone even paid attention to my chest. The world is full of flat chicks. And most people would be too polite to say anything if they did notice. Their first thought isn't likely to be 'no tits = boy in dress'.

[caseyyy]

Yeah, flat chest in a shirt while appearing female otherwise doesn't seem to make a difference. I was essentially flat before I got fat (ha) and was gendered female still.

As for presentation...hard to say, but for a job interview, maybe pick something deliberately 'unisex' that couldn't be clearly gendered either way. Once you have the job you'd have more freedom to experiment, unless it had a uniform or something.

Being topless though, i have no easy answers for you, sorry.

[Sevan]

I don't really have any answers but I want to share some solidarity with ya here. Having been on T for (nearly) two years I now have to shave everyday and there are many days when I'd really rather not. I'd like to walk to work presenting male....and I can't really. It's not an option. I can only really present male in some social situations (around friends that know or our GLBT center, etc)
I don't mind going to work "en femme"...most days I prefer it...but I would like the option to switch it up and I don't feel society allows for that really.
The desire for switching up has intensified after my breast reduction. Not really sure how to proceed socially. I guess i just dress how I want to dress most days and press the boundaries if that's what's gonna happen. *shrugs* It's just work that becomes the rub. It's the only place in my life that's kinda...forced attire (gender wise)
I worry about that with my name change as well. Will people assume me male with a name like Sevan and then be surprised when I walk in dressed in a skirt and blouse? Not sure...

[Julian]

I worry about that with my name change as well. Will people assume me male with a name like Sevan and then be surprised when I walk in dressed in a skirt and blouse? Not sure...

Sevan sounds like Devon and Bevin, two androgynous names I've seen in women. I think you might get some double-takes, but no trouble.

And solidarity is good. Nice to know there's someone in a similar boat.

[Sevan]

Oh! In thinking about it a bit more...I think if you play up secondary gender characteristics of the direction you're trying to present tends to "push it over the edge" and make people feel more comfortable because they "know" the gender you are....

Example:
If I'm feeling like I'm looking very male in my energy or facial structure (I swear it shifts some day to day...I swear.) but you're trying to present female; you could just add some mascara or lip gloss. Boom. Clearly female.

If you're trying to present more male it's a little more difficult...but I think hats help (though I'm not a fan of hats...myself) facial hair (if you've got it) and clothing choices.

Just those little things that push it over seem to really help. Though...what definitely makes me nervous is job interview type situations. Situations where they've formed an opinion (however loose..) before seeing me, and then when we meet it could be awkward. That's my big fear. For sure.

[Julian]

One thing I think about a bunch is my eyebrows. I keep them shaped and relatively thin, and I really like them. But I'll never pass as male with them like that. And I tend to do the opposite thing. If I'm wearing baggy jeans and a button-down, I like to wear mascara and make sure my eyebrows are nice.

I also have a singular nostril piercing with a little gem in it, that I never plan on taking out. Why do I make things hard for myself?

[Sevan]

I have my nose peirced too and it's got a stud in it and I love it. I never take it out. I do have a "blank" that I can put in so it doesn't look like my piercing is there, but it keeps it open. I bought it for passing male but really it's just too much work and I never use it. Lol!!!

[Julian]

I got a retainer once, for a play I was in. But I broke it. The plastic wasn't as flexible as advertised. I love my little gem. I need to get more in different colors.

[Virginia]

I'm a MAAB beanpole, 5' 10" 146 pounds, on HRT for 2 years with laser/electrolysis to remove my facial hair excepting my VanDyke, natural groomed eyebrows, shoulder length hair and a pair of 36A mosquito bites on my chest. Hormones basically reduced my body hair to a typical female pattern that's fine enough so I don't have to shave my chest or legs when I present as female but still satisfies my sense of male self. It took two years to bring my dysphoria about my maleness under control, and last summer I was finally comfortable with going topless again. Seconding Sevan's thoughts, it's all about gender cues for me; I have no problems being accepted as a guy without a shirt in cut-offs & my scrufty VanDyke, or as a girl when I shave and wear a little eyeliner/mascara & a bikini. Think Emperor's new suit;  if you are comfortable with yourself, you can pull it off.