Feeling like transitioning again. . .

[Alexmakenoise]

Last night, I had dinner with a few friends for the holidays.  We've all known each other for years from the bar/neighborhood/music scene.  I've never talked directly about my gender issues with any of them, but I think they've noticed that I'm more like a guy, etc.  So, last night, out of the blue, one of them started calling me "Kim/Mick", and talking to me like a fellow dude.  Like he could tell what I was going through because it was pretty obvious.  I was struck by how good it felt, and since then I've been thinking, "What am I doing living in San Francisco, very awkwardly trying to live as female when I actually identify as male?  WTF?"

Living as a woman - especially here - I'm really repressed.  It's wrong to be anything other than myself.  And I'm a hypocrite because if anyone else were in my situation, I'd tell them to open up and be themselves.  But transition is scary:

- I don't want to take hormones (don't want to be dependent on anything drug-like, don't want to go bald, or other possible side effects)
- As a straight woman, you have more options in terms of partners than you would as a gay man with no penis
- What if I changed my mind?
- In SF, it seems like there's a lot of pressure to start transition right after coming out; there's not as much support for people who want to take their time
- When I feel strongly attracted to a man, I feel very feminine; I can imagine this making me doubt my decision... unless I stop going for straight men (maybe that's the real problem)

I guess it's just that it's a huge change to make, and I want to be happy with my body as it is.  But it's so hard to live as female when, mentally, you really aren't one.

[Felix]

It's been hard for me to accept the fact that transition means I can't any longer date or sleep with heterosexual men. It did put off my transition. To be "a gay man without a penis" is indeed a really bad situation.

I think the only people who keep me from feeling like a monster are bisexuals and BDSM types. And straight or gay guys who have lived sheltered lives and now want adventure.

Providing "adventure" kinda messes with my head too, though.

I can feel feminine while attracted to men. I think that's okay.

[Alexmakenoise]

Hey Felix, it's good to hear from someone else who's thought twice about transition for those reasons. 

In my case, I'm not sure to what extent my concerns are valid, and to what extent I'm just making excuses for myself.

The thing about living as female and having relationships with hetero men sounds good in theory, but the truth is that my gender issues always crop up and get in the way of those relationships eventually.  I think I'd be better off living openly as genderqueer/ftm and having relationships with men who are into that.  Here in SF, there are lots of openly bi guys, and I think the odds are good that I'd meet one who really liked me for who I am.  The only thing holding me back is fear of the unknown. 

I think I'm going to start coming out to my friends as genderqueer, and make more of an effort to be a part of the local genderqueer community.  It seems like a good place to start, being non-binary, so there won't be too much pressure to get on T and go through that whole process.

[Torn1990]

you'd find alot of love in the gender queer, queer feminist, queer communities in sanfran and there definitely are those spaces if you look.
I can actually relate with alot of what youre going through as far as those fears go, but i do have a date to start hormones.
What I keep in mind is, if i start hormones, i can also stop them.

*edit* i just read your above post. Good luck with that! i love being a trans woman that is gender queer, it allows for so much breathing space.

[Felix]

The thing about living as female and having relationships with hetero men sounds good in theory, but the truth is that my gender issues always crop up and get in the way of those relationships eventually.  I think I'd be better off living openly as genderqueer/ftm and having relationships with men who are into that.  Here in SF, there are lots of openly bi guys, and I think the odds are good that I'd meet one who really liked me for who I am.  The only thing holding me back is fear of the unknown. 

This. I live in Portland, and after a couple years here it became clear that my being closeted no longer had anything to do with my surroundings, and was entirely the product of my own hangups.

[insideontheoutside]

I also won't take hormones.

But it seems to me that in order to actually live your life as male (changing your gender marker on your ID and that sort of thing) it's a requirement. Honestly I can see the legal issues in it, but what if you are trans but have personal concerns about hormones and/or surgery? Then what? I'm actually curious about that because no one else seems to be in that boat. Everyone just wants to get on hormones, etc. I don't want to change my body any more. I don't want to be dependent on a drug for the rest of my life. I don't want any side effects and personally I've tried hormones and it just wasn't for me. In my own case it's not really a fear so much as it is my own views about natural health. It's something I feel really strongly about.

All in all, my decisions haven't really kept me from being myself it's just that a portion of society sees me differently than I see myself. I also don't mind being androgynous looking, which I know is a factor in my own case.

But there definitely is a, "pressure to get on T and go through that whole process" out there. That part of it all I really don't care for myself.

[Felix]

I also won't take hormones.

But it seems to me that in order to actually live your life as male (changing your gender marker on your ID and that sort of thing) it's a requirement. Honestly I can see the legal issues in it, but what if you are trans but have personal concerns about hormones and/or surgery? Then what? I'm actually curious about that because no one else seems to be in that boat. Everyone just wants to get on hormones, etc. I don't want to change my body any more. I don't want to be dependent on a drug for the rest of my life. I don't want any side effects and personally I've tried hormones and it just wasn't for me. In my own case it's not really a fear so much as it is my own views about natural health. It's something I feel really strongly about.

All in all, my decisions haven't really kept me from being myself it's just that a portion of society sees me differently than I see myself. I also don't mind being androgynous looking, which I know is a factor in my own case.

But there definitely is a, "pressure to get on T and go through that whole process" out there. That part of it all I really don't care for myself.

No way. I know guys who refuse hormones because they don't like needles, or don't want facial hair, or don't want to smell funny, or don't want to spend the money, etc. It's not a problem for them.

The surgery thing seems (in the U.S.) to only be an issue with the SSA. Idk what kind of stick they have up their butt, but they do expect us to alter (some say mutilate) ourselves in order to prove our gender. It's not nice and it's not fair.

[Alexmakenoise]

The surgery thing seems (in the U.S.) to only be an issue with the SSA. Idk what kind of stick they have up their butt, but they do expect us to alter (some say mutilate) ourselves in order to prove our gender. It's not nice and it's not fair.

Yeah, it's like we're pressured into surgery, even if we don't want it all that much.  And then our detractors attack us for "self-mutilation".    Personally, I like the idea of having top surgery, and would happily pay that insane amount of money and go through the month-long(?) healing process to have a flat chest.  But it's not for everyone.  We definitely shouldn't have to alter our bodies that drastically in order to prove our gender.  I understand it's how they can tell you're committed to your transition, but there must be another way.

[insideontheoutside]

No way. I know guys who refuse hormones because they don't like needles, or don't want facial hair, or don't want to smell funny, or don't want to spend the money, etc. It's not a problem for them.

The surgery thing seems (in the U.S.) to only be an issue with the SSA. Idk what kind of stick they have up their butt, but they do expect us to alter (some say mutilate) ourselves in order to prove our gender. It's not nice and it's not fair.

I've seen the rare guy on this site that doesn't want to take hormones, but it does seem highly rare. I would also say it's more from the psychological/medical world that the pressure comes from, not necessarily from other trans guys. Most people seem to be accepting and realize that not everyone is the same.

Yeah, it's like we're pressured into surgery, even if we don't want it all that much.  And then our detractors attack us for "self-mutilation".    Personally, I like the idea of having top surgery, and would happily pay that insane amount of money and go through the month-long(?) healing process to have a flat chest.  But it's not for everyone.  We definitely shouldn't have to alter our bodies that drastically in order to prove our gender.  I understand it's how they can tell you're committed to your transition, but there must be another way.

I'd love to ditch the moobs but I have this thing about surgery too. Long ago I probably could have played the "intersex condition" card and tried to get all my paperwork changed to male, but I know it would not have gone over well with my parents and I have no idea if it would have actually changed my life for the worst. I probably would not be where I am now in life. Also, anyone who could actually manage to transition without drugs or surgery would have to be cozy with the fact they still might look female or at the very least andro to some people.

[Alexmakenoise]

I've seen the rare guy on this site that doesn't want to take hormones, but it does seem highly rare. I would also say it's more from the psychological/medical world that the pressure comes from, not necessarily from other trans guys. Most people seem to be accepting and realize that not everyone is the same.

I'm not sure if pressure was the right word...  Around here, informed consent seems to be the norm, and it seems like most guys get on T within a couple of months after coming out, if not sooner.  Even my therapist referred me to an endo in the first or second visit, and then we seemed to run out of things to talk about.  It was kind of like, "Well, you're a guy, so what are you waiting for?"  Then the therapy became more about me putting off transition for the wrong reasons (which was appropriate - I was putting it off for the wrong reasons).  But coming from living as a straight woman, I'd rather ease into it by living as genderqueer for a while.  I'm sure that's not unheard of, but I haven't met anyone who's doing it that way yet.

I'd love to ditch the moobs but I have this thing about surgery too. Long ago I probably could have played the "intersex condition" card and tried to get all my paperwork changed to male, but I know it would not have gone over well with my parents and I have no idea if it would have actually changed my life for the worst. I probably would not be where I am now in life. Also, anyone who could actually manage to transition without drugs or surgery would have to be cozy with the fact they still might look female or at the very least andro to some people.

You can switch your gender legally due to an intersex condition?  If so, do you know what would count as "intersex"?  I have a standard female body, but I seem to have really high testosterone, so I often wonder if there's some medical thing causing me to be so masculine.  I would still want to live as male, but it would be good if it could make transition easier, or if it could help me to make sense of the situation I'm in.

[insideontheoutside]

I'm not sure if pressure was the right word...  Around here, informed consent seems to be the norm, and it seems like most guys get on T within a couple of months after coming out, if not sooner.  Even my therapist referred me to an endo in the first or second visit, and then we seemed to run out of things to talk about.  It was kind of like, "Well, you're a guy, so what are you waiting for?"  Then the therapy became more about me putting off transition for the wrong reasons (which was appropriate - I was putting it off for the wrong reasons).  But coming from living as a straight woman, I'd rather ease into it by living as genderqueer for a while.  I'm sure that's not unheard of, but I haven't met anyone who's doing it that way yet.

You can switch your gender legally due to an intersex condition?  If so, do you know what would count as "intersex"?  I have a standard female body, but I seem to have really high testosterone, so I often wonder if there's some medical thing causing me to be so masculine.  I would still want to live as male, but it would be good if it could make transition easier, or if it could help me to make sense of the situation I'm in.

Yeah like I said I get that most people actually want the hormones but if you don't you're either questioned (like by the psychologists who seem to think if you don't want them then you're not really male - or by other trans guys who think you're weird) or you're just an anomaly. I don't think it's weird to live as genderqueer or "ease into" anything really. I don't like that there's this set procedure for transition. I know I'm in the minority with that but everyone is different and while a lot of people do take things at their own pace there is a race to the finish line going on with others. Also, in a lot of states it's very hard to change your gender without SRS. Hormones aren't enough for some of them. And if you're not doing either well you can pretty much forget trying to get your birth certificate changed.

As for the intersex condition, it's tough. I've never had the chromosome tests done (perhaps I had when I was young and never knew or was told) but I was born with ambiguous genitalia - which you would think would be enough. But since I also have internal female bits (even though they're atrophied and don't exactly work) I got the "F" even though that's never how I identified. I also have a much higher level of testosterone than the average female but apparently that's not enough either with most doctors. Honestly I think some serious reevaluation on what intersex actually is needs to happen. It's not just CAH or chromosomal abnormalities or being a true hermaphrodite ... and there are supposedly tons of classifications but gender is such a societal hot button that it's really difficult to change it once you get assigned at birth.

[Paul]

I know I'm delayed on responding, sorry about that, but I think it's helpful in a way when your friends notice your gender issues before you come out.  I told a handful of people I had considered transitioning back in 2009 and then I put it on the back burnder for a while again.  Then out of the blue last year a different friend randomly started calling me Paul.  Sort of as a joke, but also sort of because he viewed me as another guy.  Even though I wasn't ready to completely come out, let alone transition, it helped knowing that if I did get to that point I'd have his support and that he already accepted me for me.  Other friends in our group started calling me Paul as well, so once I was finally able to come out this past summer and really started to think about transitioning again it made the process easier.  So definitely take it as a good sign if he's already seeing you as male.

[Alexmakenoise]

Paul, I agree.  I'm hoping that if my friends accept me as a masculine person first and foremost, it'll make my transition easier - both on myself and on them. 

It means a lot to me to know that they see me for who I really am, and accept me.  I guess people are often more perceptive, and more open-minded, than I expect.

[Felix]

I know I'm delayed on responding, sorry about that, but I think it's helpful in a way when your friends notice your gender issues before you come out.  I told a handful of people I had considered transitioning back in 2009 and then I put it on the back burnder for a while again.  Then out of the blue last year a different friend randomly started calling me Paul.  Sort of as a joke, but also sort of because he viewed me as another guy.  Even though I wasn't ready to completely come out, let alone transition, it helped knowing that if I did get to that point I'd have his support and that he already accepted me for me.  Other friends in our group started calling me Paul as well, so once I was finally able to come out this past summer and really started to think about transitioning again it made the process easier.  So definitely take it as a good sign if he's already seeing you as male.

I actually had a lot of people nudge me and say and do similar things off and on for years and years, and I feel both bad for brushing them off and relieved and pleased to have been recognized. It's interesting.

[Alexmakenoise]

Yeah, it's like people know you better than you think they do.

[Paul]

Haha, yeah.  When I came out to one of my aunts she said she's known for years, but was just waiting for me to tell her, haha.

[Mister]

Last night, I had dinner with a few friends for the holidays.  We've all known each other for years from the bar/neighborhood/music scene.  I've never talked directly about my gender issues with any of them, but I think they've noticed that I'm more like a guy, etc.  So, last night, out of the blue, one of them started calling me "Kim/Mick", and talking to me like a fellow dude.  Like he could tell what I was going through because it was pretty obvious.  I was struck by how good it felt, and since then I've been thinking, "What am I doing living in San Francisco, very awkwardly trying to live as female when I actually identify as male?  WTF?"

Living as a woman - especially here - I'm really repressed.  It's wrong to be anything other than myself.  And I'm a hypocrite because if anyone else were in my situation, I'd tell them to open up and be themselves.  But transition is scary:

- I don't want to take hormones (don't want to be dependent on anything drug-like, don't want to go bald, or other possible side effects)
- As a straight woman, you have more options in terms of partners than you would as a gay man with no penis
- What if I changed my mind?
- In SF, it seems like there's a lot of pressure to start transition right after coming out; there's not as much support for people who want to take their time
- When I feel strongly attracted to a man, I feel very feminine; I can imagine this making me doubt my decision... unless I stop going for straight men (maybe that's the real problem)

I guess it's just that it's a huge change to make, and I want to be happy with my body as it is.  But it's so hard to live as female when, mentally, you really aren't one.

More dating possibilities as a straight woman that a ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<- in SF? Are you kidding me?!  Gay transmen are the new thing in SF!  As a straight, monogamous guy I'm in the vast minority.  You'll get plenty of action-- relax and have fun!!
'
Also, in SF, there is a huge presence of guys who don't medically transition completely or even at all.  I think you need to do a bit more examining of the local community because dude, you're practically a cookie cutter FTM around here.

[Alexmakenoise]

More dating possibilities as a straight woman that a ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<- in SF? Are you kidding me?!  Gay transmen are the new thing in SF!  As a straight, monogamous guy I'm in the vast minority.  You'll get plenty of action-- relax and have fun!!
'
Also, in SF, there is a huge presence of guys who don't medically transition completely or even at all.  I think you need to do a bit more examining of the local community because dude, you're practically a cookie cutter FTM around here.

Haha, good to hear!  Sounds like I'm in the right place at the right time and I just need to get out and find where the action is.