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GOP Poll Graph Speaks 1000 Words

Started by Julie Marie, December 29, 2011, 01:06:40 PM

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Felix

pabulum 
n.
1. A substance that gives nourishment; food.
2. Insipid intellectual nourishment

everybody's house is haunted
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2012, 04:16:42 PM
What that graph says is that no consensus has developed, at this point in time, on who their nominee is going to be.

You are clearly under the delusion that somehow 'the people' or even 'Republican voters' pick the nominee, they don't.  There is no legal binding for any primary votes in any state.  These are in essence (as well as in fact) private groups acting privately.  The sitting members of the Republican Central Committees pick the nominee, and it's been a done deal for a long time now.  THE FIX IS IN.  They are going to pick the guy who is the most like them, ie: the richest white guy in the room who's been waiting the longest, and that's Mitt.  It's always been Mitt.  The entire process is structured in just that way.

I think your are being a little too jaded.  The primary election process was a "progressive" reform from the early 1900's to circumvent the so-called smoke-filled room(s) of state and national conventions.  The parties control the specifics of the primary process, but in those states where a caucus, open primary, or closed primary exists, the people do, indeed, have considerable say.  (Keeping in mind, of course, that the actual distribution of state delegates follows the Party's rules - which is how Obama got the Democrat nomination, although Hillary Clinton got more actual votes in the process.)

As I recall, four years ago Gov. Mike Huckabee won the Iowa caucus. He was not the eventual nominee.  12 years ago, George W Bush lost New Hampshire (to McCain), and was not the richest guy in the race (that was Forbes). Primary elections and caucuses are "binding" in some cases - it depends on state laws.

The process applies to Democrats as well as Republicans.  I contend we will see a winnowing process between now and February 5th (Super Tuesday), when there will only be two or three candidates still standing.  Ron Paul will run a quixotic, Jerry Brown-type (who I once supported) primary candidacy until he has to focus on his own House seat.
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Jamie D

Quote from: Felix on January 03, 2012, 05:15:11 PM
pabulum 
n.
1. A substance that gives nourishment; food.
2. Insipid intellectual nourishment

More to the point - bland, tasteless, baby food.
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 01, 2012, 12:33:09 PM
I think you mean EEG (electroencephalogram)

EKG (actually ECG, electrocardiogram) measures the heart.

Her EEG may flatline.
  •  

Vanora

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2012, 04:16:42 PM
THE FIX IS IN.

That is only partially true.  The backroom guys have their own reasons for wanting different people.  And those "guys" have many competing interests and constituencies.  But the party operatives, for the most part, just want to win the election.  And none of the other candidates other than Romney have demonstrated a working combination of charisma, intelligence, and a somewhat workable ideology to be able to reasonably expect to win a general election.  I'm not suggesting that Romney is an amazing candidate but he seems to be the best in the pack for winning the election. Many people have a Huntsman fantasy but he failed to put together an organization and campaign that could draw in more than single digits. All the other candidates pretty much have no chance although Newt might have done well in some debates with Obama because of his wonky approach. But he has a lot of other baggage to overcome.

Moreover, it makes sense that a conservative party would tend to go with someone who has been around for awhile.  The last thing people in a conservative party would want, almost by definition, would be an unknown who shakes things up too much.  And Romney's inconsistency has made it hard for people to support him.

Establishment people always try to fix things in their favor. They don't always have full control of the process but they clearly do have an advantage.

In the end, the voters have to vote in the primaries.  They don't love Romney but they don't appear to feel like there is a good alternative. This race would have changed instantly if someone like Mitch Daniels or Chris Christie would have run. I suspect the establishment and a whole bunch of mainstream Republicans would have jumped in immediately on a Daniels candidacy. 
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tekla

I am not jaded, but I did work in several Iowa campaigns.  And the 'winner' in this is going to get a highly-paid job at Faux News and a book deal, the 'loser' gets to face Obama.

Why do you think that people like Christy and Danials (and plenty of other 'smarter' 'Pubs) didn't run?  I'll bet because they are looking at the same things that I am, and those numbers are going to make it really hard for any real person to actually run against, and beat, Obama.

Tomorrow, when the red, white and blue clown car heads off to South Carolina and New Hampshire all of those offices will close down.  But tomorrow Obama will still have 8 full time offices up and running in Iowa.  BO already has over $60,000,000 in his fund and he hasn't even really started to raise money yet.  He'll have ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS, before the convention.  That's going to be real hard to raise late in the game, particular for a candidate who is not exactly setting the base on fire.  It's going to be even harder if the 'Pubs seem to be running a loser (and that's most of them).  80% of the money for either party comes from the same sources - largely corporate money - who give to both sides so that no matter wins, they win.  And that's not jaded, that's just good business.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Vanora

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2012, 08:31:45 PM
Why do you think that people like Christy and Danials (and plenty of other 'smarter' 'Pubs) didn't run?  I'll bet because they are looking at the same things that I am, and those numbers are going to make it really hard for any real person to actually run against, and beat, Obama.

It is usually hard to unseat an incumbent. In the last 100 years Wilson did with the help of Theodore Roosevelt. FDR did it in the midst of the Depression.  Reagan did it during the Carter malaise days.  Clinton did it with the help of Perot and a weak economy.

So the career minded cautious politician usually won't run if he wants a real stab at the presidency.   Daniels doesn't appear to be an egomaniac like many of these people.  Or he might have told the truth that his family doesn't want him to run.

Obama has a good chance to win if the economy recovers at all. He probably has a much better chance to win if he can get Hillary on the ticket with him. if the GOP turns out to be a lock on the House and the Senate then some moderates will vote for Obama to keep the government from having one party control.
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2012, 08:31:45 PM
I am not jaded, but I did work in several Iowa campaigns.  And the 'winner' in this is going to get a highly-paid job at Faux News and a book deal, the 'loser' gets to face Obama.

Why do you think that people like Christy and Danials (and plenty of other 'smarter' 'Pubs) didn't run?  I'll bet because they are looking at the same things that I am, and those numbers are going to make it really hard for any real person to actually run against, and beat, Obama.

Tomorrow, when the red, white and blue clown car heads off to South Carolina and New Hampshire all of those offices will close down.  But tomorrow Obama will still have 8 full time offices up and running in Iowa.  BO already has over $60,000,000 in his fund and he hasn't even really started to raise money yet.  He'll have ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS, before the convention.  That's going to be real hard to raise late in the game, particular for a candidate who is not exactly setting the base on fire.  It's going to be even harder if the 'Pubs seem to be running a loser (and that's most of them).  80% of the money for either party comes from the same sources - largely corporate money - who give to both sides so that no matter wins, they win.  And that's not jaded, that's just good business.

It appears tht there is no clearcut winner in Iowa this evening.

Mr. Obama will need all of that $1 BILLION he plans to spend in 2012 if he hopes to win.  He spent $750 million last time around.

Case in point:
In February 2009 his job approval rating was 62% favorable; 19% unfavorable
Today it is 47% favorable; 48% unfavorable (source: Real Clear Politics)

In a hypothetical matchup between Obama and a generic Republican:
Republican 47%; Obama 43% (source: Rasmussen Reports, 1/3/2012

The last president to have such a poor approval rating one year prior to an election was Jimmy Carter in 1979.  He was blown out by Ronald Reagan in 1980.  (Gallup 12/2/11)

MSNBC (11/11) reports that Obama's disapproval among independents is at 56%, disapproval among suburban residents at 57%, disapproval among midwest voters  at 52%.  These were key constituencies for his 2008 election.  Obama's own campaign advisors term these poll results as "of concern."
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tekla

OK, one more time with feeling.

People, like voters, don't elect the President, states do.  So the numbers don't matter until you break them down into electoral votes.  And the biggest states are pretty blue.  And, for the most part there is no real campaign in them.  People in NYC and SF really don't see any Presidential ads, there no sense in wasting the money.  So all that huge amount of money - and a billion is just a start, wait till they really start adding up the superpac money - is going to be poured into only a couple of states that really swing it.

But - and bookmark this so I won't have to say "I told you so" you'll just be able to come back and read it every day....

...the insane religious wingnuts conservative "values voters" now have their candidate (not really, they wanted Sara, but she's too busy being a grifter - and too smart - to actually run)*.  And it's a guy who not only lost re-election a sitting senator, but lost by a record amount.  But the people who control the party (who are now free to do what they want because of the Citizens United ruling) are going to insure that Romney - Mister 1% himself - wins.  And the easy way to do that is to run negative ads that destroy (and it's not going to be hard, he's not ready for prime time) Santorum.  That (plus Mitt's RINO stuff, and the Mormon deal) is going to turn off the very voters that the 'Pubs need to turn out in order to win.  As is being shown in some very red states, getting out the vote is only half the battle, suppressing the opposition is the other half, and BO is not even going to need to try to do that, it's going to be a done deal before the convention.

That's the story, it's not that Obama has to win, they just have to make sure that Mitt loses, and the way that Mitt is going to have to go - or will be 'gone' for him by his corporate pals - to eliminate the competition is going to insure it.  Look at the negative ads run in Iowa that sank Newt in one week and double it, then triple that (particularly in South Carolina, if Mitt wins there, then its all over), and that kind of campaign has been shown time in and time out to turn people off.

Long campaigns also turn people off.  And the 'Pubs have been running since the day after they blew (like Linda Lovelace in a penis convention) the last election and woke up to find a black man in the White House.  And as much as 'generic Republican' beats Obama, the 'Pubs actually have to run a real person, and lots and lots of people are already bored/tired/burned out by all the ones who have been running.

Incumbants have a huge advantage regardless of the party.  People often credit that to the power of holding the office, and that is a huge advantage.  But the bigger advantage - the one Obama has and the 'Pubs can't - is that he doesn't have to run a primary.  Primaries divide parties, they don't unite them.  And while you picked up the money sentence, you missed the more important fact that I listed before it.  So I'll repete it, because it's critical.

Tomorrow, when the red, white and blue clown car heads off to South Carolina and New Hampshire all of those offices will close down.  But tomorrow Obama will still have 8 full time offices up and running in Iowa.

And not just Iowa, but in all 50 states.  While the opposition tears itself apart, Obama is busy building organizations, boots on the ground, real people (not virtual) doing real campaign work.  And it's in place a year out from the election, while the 'Pubs won't really be able to do that until May at the earliest - but most likely not until the summer.  That's what early money buys, organization.  And organization wins elections that are close.

But, here is where it is now.

Bachman, Huntsman, and Perry (also Trump, Governor Timmy, and Huckabee who liked his Fox money more than his country apparently) are gone.  Newt is dead in the water, but going out gracefully is not his style, so look for him to put the knife in Mitt's back (that Mitts superpacs put in Newt's back, so it's more like just returning it to him) on his way out.  Trump will make 3rd Party noises, but would never actually do it.

Mitt 'won', but still has no excitement behind him, no sense of momentum.  In four years he really didn't win any more 'Pub voters than he had last time.  That's flat like soda left out in sun and rain.  Yeah, he 'won' but 75% of the 'Pub voters didn't vote for him.  That's that bad indication for him.

The religious right has their guy, and he's not not a winner.  His negatives are huge, his electability marginal, his appeal outside that base is lower than zero.  He's almost a crazy-train level hawk in a war weary country, all that attack Iran stuff is going to lose him votes.  The anti-abortion, anti-gay stuff does not get him any more votes than he already has, and lose him votes in a general election in a ->-bleeped-<-ty economy.  Destroying him is going to be so easy it's going to be hard not to look mean doing it.  Even if he picks up ALL the rest of the values crowd that's only another 13-15% of the 'Pubs, so he's still not over 50% in his own party.  It's a democratic wet dream to run against Rick Santorum.

Ron Paul did well, but he did as good as he's ever going to do.  What's more I doubt that more than 25% of his supporters (5% of the Iowa vote) would support ANY other candidate.  They LOVE Ron Paul, but don't really care for anyone else - it's like a political cult more than a political campaign.  And, he spend a year building that kind of support in Iowa, but he's not going to be able to do that in any other state, all of which have more votes than Iowa does.  But he's in it for the long haul, I don't think he dropped out last time until June, so he's going to be a pain, one that both Rick and Mitt are going to have to contend with, but one that has no value to either of them, or indeed the party.  But the worst nightmare (a 3rd party run) is not going to happen because of his son.




* - I seriously doubt such a person could win a national election anyway.  No matter who was running against them.  We're a corporate-industrial state, not a theocratic backwater.  The more they pour on the religion, the deeper they sink with the swing voters who have no real attachment to those issues like abortion, prayer in school, gay marriage but who do care deeply about economic issues, and their own economic situation these days (bad and looking worse in the future) in particular.

... and if you though I was cynical/realistic before, wait till you read this...I also have no doubt that sometime long about last summer Sara Palin got a plain anonymous package, envelope, tape (something along those lines) that detailed the information that had been collected on her and would be released if she ran.  So she was offered a choice, run and have that stuff come out, or fade away with her millions.  And here's the real cynical part, I'll bet it was the Republican establishment that sent it to her.  She was the only real threat to the establishment because she has what Mitt, Newt, Michele, Ron, Rick et all can't match one on one - hell they can't match it as a group - and that's charisma.  They could not afford to take the risk that she might win.  That's how the big boys really play the game.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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justmeinoz

Sounds nearly as complicated as preselection for the Australian Labor Party.  Then the "faceless men" pick the candidate.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Julie Marie

Quote from: Vanora on January 03, 2012, 07:28:09 PM
And none of the other candidates other than Romney have demonstrated a working combination of charisma, intelligence, and a somewhat workable ideology to be able to reasonably expect to win a general election.

None of the other candidates has the money the Mitt campaign does.  And the "Restore Our Future" super-pac that backs Romney is outspending the Romney presidential campaign 2-1.  So for every dollar his presidential campaign spends on getting him elected, his super-pac spends twice that.  His showing in the polls wouldn't have been so steady without the big bucks backing him.

And thanks to the ever-so-wise Republicans on our Supreme Court, we have no idea from where all that money is coming nor do they have to tell us.

Last night I heard a comment to the effect "the Tea Party doesn't like leaders so whoever is in the lead, they won't support."  If true, that may be one of the reasons for the schizophrenic graph.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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tekla

In the end you're going to have an establishment selected elite candidate vs. an establishment selected elite candidate.  When has it ever been any other way?

I'm not sure what this elaborate dance is all about, except to maintain the illusion of citizen participation and give our utterly worthless media something with which to sell soap and pills, but - as with the last election - no major policies will change, that's for sure.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Vanora

Quote from: tekla on January 04, 2012, 12:36:02 PM
In the end you're going to have an establishment selected elite candidate vs. an establishment selected elite candidate.  When has it ever been any other way?

I'm not sure what this elaborate dance is all about, except to maintain the illusion of citizen participation and give our utterly worthless media something with which to sell soap and pills, but - as with the last election - no major policies will change, that's for sure.

Things have changed in the past.  In the last 50 years LBJ changed things quite a big and so did Reagan.  I would say though that in the last 20 years little has changed.  The government appears to be more and more run by special interests many of which are corporate but there are many others too. The government was bought and paid for by special interests even before the Citizens United decision.  Very few pieces of legislation are not tainted with complete garbage. So it appears that the government is getting less responsive to solving real problems.  And you could reach this conclusion whether you are liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between.
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tekla

#33
Hard to find two more establishment types than LBJ and Reagan.  There are several different establishment elites in the US.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Vanora

Quote from: tekla on January 04, 2012, 08:38:41 PM
Hard to find two more establishment types than JBJ and Reagan.  There are several different establishment elites in the US.

Yes. But they both shook things up in different ways.  And I suspect history will judge both of them with some positives and negatives but also judge them as being more consequential than all the other recent presidents.  The real question is whether or not our system has any capacity to create positive change now.
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tekla

I don't think it's a matter of capacity as it is one of need and will.  Both of those eras had a broad-based demand for change, as well as a general consensus as to what changes were needed.  We don't have that now, but I do think it's starting.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Felix

Quote from: tekla on January 04, 2012, 08:38:41 PM
Hard to find two more establishment types than JBJ and Reagan.  There are several different establishment elites in the US.





Yay. :laugh:
everybody's house is haunted
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tekla

Good catch, I ought to hire you as my proofreader.  Though JBJ is pretty establishment elite too.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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justmeinoz

I read a quote by LBJ that said Kennedy could never have done what was required to end Segregation in the South because he was an outsider, but being a Texan he could.  Makes sense.
At least Bachmann and Palin are  out of the race from what I understand.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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tekla

Palin was never in the race, she just collected money like she was.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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