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GOP Poll Graph Speaks 1000 Words

Started by Julie Marie, December 29, 2011, 01:06:40 PM

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Jamie D

Quote from: Julie Marie on January 10, 2012, 11:00:05 AM
There are certain buzz words in politics that cause irrational behavior in certain humans.  "Communism" and "socialism" are two of them.  If you can tag someone with either or both of those stigmas, you can seriously handicap them.  It's a lot like how certain christian identified people use the word "homosexual" instead of "gay".  For the ignorant, it stirs up a lot of irrational fear.

There is a rather humorous litany of labels that Obama haters have tried to attach to him.  For the educated, that hasn't worked.  I'm not saying he's a saint.  Simply being a politician precludes him from that category.  But when you compare him to the parade of GOP hopefuls that the Pubs are displaying as the Great White (or Black) Hope, Obama is simply the better alternative.

But regardless of who you like, if your trans, LGB, or just an advocate, supporting (most) Republicans is like a Jew in Nazi Germany supporting the Third Reich.  By and large, the entire Republican party has stood steadfast in NOT supporting ENDA.  They see LGBT people as third class citizens and, if given the ability to do so, would probably lock us all up in reparative therapy camps and keep us there until we're "cured".  And I don't see even a glimmer of hope this attitude will change anytime in the near future.

I understand and am sensitive to your experience with workplace discrimination, but to compare Republicans to mass murders is over the top, hyperbolic, and just plain wrong.

Need I remind you that, when Democrats controlled both houses of Congress, in 2007-2008, and with a Democrat executive from 2009-2010, they failed to pass ENDA?  Why was that?

Republicans, largely, treasure individual liberties and rights.  I can not think of a single Republican in power who has advocated "camps" for gender variant people.

While I am opposed to discrimination and bigotry on all levels, there exist good reasons to oppose specific legislation.  In general, I oppose creating special "classes" or "groups" of persons to afford special rights.  You cannot create social harmony by dividing people into interest groups.  Discrimination will be ended through understanding and education.

And not all GLBT organizations or spokespersons have supported ENDA.  In 2009, for instance, Indiana Equality called ENDA a "new form of segregation."
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tekla

Though the point may have been a bit harsh, it's no secret that the current crop and their base supporters are no big fans of expanded civil rights unless it's for corporations - though, and I'll admit that it's cracking me up - and even then I'm hearing some of them complain (like I said, I'm really laughing my ass off here) about money in politics and how hard it is to fight the rich guy.  I mean hearing them talk about money in politics was like listening to Hugh Hefner, Bob Guccione, and Larry Flint decry using sex to sell magazines.


And what is it about the big Saul Alinski 5-Minute Hate that's been going on over him and Obama (though it started with Hillary)?  Heck, I always thought of Saul as a big old All-American success story.  Though to be sure not until recently did anyone outside his city/and or/field really knew of him.  Let's face it, handbooks on community organizing don't exactly fly off the shelves like sexual serial killer stories with titles like The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Did he advocate violence?  Push for a violent overthrow?  Did he tell people to come armed?  Did Saul ever advocate saying: "We came unarmed this time"?  Did he in fact ever use any tactics that were not democratically approved?  Was his overall strategy not pretty American - keeping government close to home and responsible for/responsive to those who elected it?

He did stand counter to the politics of people like Hizhonor Da Mayor there in Chicago, but then again, I'm really doubting that you're part of the Richard J. Daley fan-club either.  But I will say something positive about Mayor Daley, and it's something that the right-wing has gone loco about - Daley understood that even though Saul and himself never saw eye to eye, envisioned two totally different outcomes, and served two vastly different consitinties, Daley himself said: "Alinsky loves Chicago the same as I do."  And people forget that - or outright ignore it by trying to claim that he's not even an American - that Obama loves the same USA that Julie and I love, and it's the same country that those busy wrapping them selves in a flag to notice, claim to love also.  So he comes down on a political point somewhat different than yours?  That's the basis of democracy is that people have differing points of view about the same issues/facts.

But the way people want to link Obama to Alinsky is like he's Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky and Mao all rolled into one.  And he's not.  Nor is he The Club of Rome or the Illuminati meeting all in secret there - hell no, everything Alinsky did was out in the open, in small meetings with everyday people.  And what happened when all those people got together?  Did all these people get together and demand that the government take over the means of production, thus ushering in a workers paradise with cradle to grave governmental care of every whim? 

Nope. 

More often then not people organized for such basic things as stop lights, stop signs, turning that abandoned lot with all the trash into a park, police protection, upgrading of sanitation equipment to meet the standards of the rest of the city, better schools, and a more responsive government that at least listened to them on occasion.

That's what old Saul was really all about, helping people to solve little problems and in working together they could begin to solve bigger problems - which is also the foundation of theater, corporations, industry, armies, unions, government and team sports  - I'm not seeing some big huge wrong about any of it. 

Matter of fact, when Saul quotes Judge Hand, I kinda like him.  Alinsky liked to quote Hand's saying that it was important to have 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide."

And to the degree that Julie Marie, and myself, and not a few other people - see one side of the political debate dominated by exactly those doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated types, with no shortage of religious and political and racial fanatics extolling views/attitudes/notions and polices that are far out of the mainstream - well if it's not full out scary yet, it's certainly way past time to take it seriously. 

I don't think anyone's got an inside track on truth going on right now.  The problems we are facing are novel in that they are the result in no small degree of the doctrinal thinking of the past, and will need new solutions and not old applications.  It's not that they were unseen - they have not crept up on us exactly - but the old notions couldn't envision a solution so they just ignored the growing problems, the mounting anomalies, and the ever-expanding list of systemic breakdowns until they just ran smack into the tree.  Thelma and Louise baby.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 11, 2012, 10:22:41 AM
Though the point may have been a bit harsh, it's no secret that the current crop and their base supporters are no big fans of expanded civil rights unless it's for corporations - though, and I'll admit that it's cracking me up - and even then I'm hearing some of them complain (like I said, I'm really laughing my ass off here) about money in politics and how hard it is to fight the rich guy.  I mean hearing them talk about money in politics was like listening to Hugh Hefner, Bob Guccione, and Larry Flint decry using sex to sell magazines.

"... a bit harsh ..."??  Comparing Republicans to Nazis is exactly what I termed it; "over the top."


And what is it about the big Saul Alinski 5-Minute Hate that's been going on over him and Obama (though it started with Hillary)?  Heck, I always thought of Saul as a big old All-American success story.  Though to be sure not until recently did anyone outside his city/and or/field really knew of him.  Let's face it, handbooks on community organizing don't exactly fly off the shelves like sexual serial killer stories with titles like The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Did he advocate violence?  Push for a violent overthrow?  Did he tell people to come armed?  Did Saul ever advocate saying: "We came unarmed this time"?  Did he in fact ever use any tactics that were not democratically approved?  Was his overall strategy not pretty American - keeping government close to home and responsible for/responsive to those who elected it?

You are correct that Alinsky did not openly advocate violence.  The context of his book, Rules for Radicals, written in 1971, was in the immediate aftermath of the turbulent 1960's.  But neither did Alinsky condemn violence.  He was a committed Marxist and a revolutionary.  He referred to his opposition as "the enemy."  He advocated a more stealthly approach to radicalism and revolution.  But at the same time he asked, "Does this particular end justify this particular means?" thus leaving the door open to the more common Cummunist approach to violent revolution.  After all, he admired the Spanish Civil War phrase, "Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."  That is not exactly the approach of a pacifist.

He did stand counter to the politics of people like Hizhonor Da Mayor there in Chicago, but then again, I'm really doubting that you're part of the Richard J. Daley fan-club either.  But I will say something positive about Mayor Daley, and it's something that the right-wing has gone loco about - Daley understood that even though Saul and himself never saw eye to eye, envisioned two totally different outcomes, and served two vastly different consitinties, Daley himself said: "Alinsky loves Chicago the same as I do."  And people forget that - or outright ignore it by trying to claim that he's not even an American - that Obama loves the same USA that Julie and I love, and it's the same country that those busy wrapping them selves in a flag to notice, claim to love also.  So he comes down on a political point somewhat different than yours?  That's the basis of democracy is that people have differing points of view about the same issues/facts.

Obama does not love traditional America.  He is a committed leftwing ideologue who believes he operates under a superior moral imperative.  Did you ever read Stanley Kurtz's, Radical-in-Chief: Obama and the Untold Story of American Socialism?  There is not one shred of doubt that Obama embraces the socialist ideal, while at the same time, runs away from the label.

With all due respect to the late Mayor Daley, Obama is much more closely associated with Harold Washington.


But the way people want to link Obama to Alinsky is like he's Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky and Mao all rolled into one.  And he's not.  Nor is he The Club of Rome or the Illuminati meeting all in secret there - hell no, everything Alinsky did was out in the open, in small meetings with everyday people.  And what happened when all those people got together?  Did all these people get together and demand that the government take over the means of production, thus ushering in a workers paradise with cradle to grave governmental care of every whim? 

Nope.

A nice exposition of Alinsky's Rule #5: Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It's hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

Charges that Obama is philosophically influenced by the Marxist Alinsky are not in the same realm of political mythology and propaganda that has sprung up around the "New World Order" or the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion."


More often then not people organized for such basic things as stop lights, stop signs, turning that abandoned lot with all the trash into a park, police protection, upgrading of sanitation equipment to meet the standards of the rest of the city, better schools, and a more responsive government that at least listened to them on occasion.

That's what old Saul was really all about, helping people to solve little problems and in working together they could begin to solve bigger problems - which is also the foundation of theater, corporations, industry, armies, unions, government and team sports  - I'm not seeing some big huge wrong about any of it.

When Alinsky talks about mobilizing "mass power," he is not contemplating the issue of stops signs before the town council.   

Matter of fact, when Saul quotes Judge Hand, I kinda like him.  Alinsky liked to quote Hand's saying that it was important to have 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide."

You are right about that.  The biggest offenders, of course, being the irreligious authoritarians of the 20th century.  The premise of America is that the people have a natural right to rise up against tyranny and oppression.  But socialism, as practiced behind the "iron curtain," was/is a malignant form of government, and as practiced in many non-communist countries today, is a form of statism and a soft tyranny.  Both are antithetical to the American tradition.  To the extent that Obama admires and attempts to emulate modern socialism, he a traitor to our founding principals.

I am all for political pluralism and open debate. That is the American tradition.  I don't claim to know the absolute truth, but I do know when I'm being presented a bill of goods.


And to the degree that Julie Marie, and myself, and not a few other people - see one side of the political debate dominated by exactly those doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated types, with no shortage of religious and political and racial fanatics extolling views/attitudes/notions and polices that are far out of the mainstream - well if it's not full out scary yet, it's certainly way past time to take it seriously.

Rule 5 again.  Are ad hominems necessary?  Are those who don't agree with you "racists," "intellectually constipated," "humorless," and "doctrinaire"?  It is, I suppose, all a matter of perspective.

I don't think anyone's got an inside track on truth going on right now.  The problems we are facing are novel in that they are the result in no small degree of the doctrinal thinking of the past, and will need new solutions and not old applications.  It's not that they were unseen - they have not crept up on us exactly - but the old notions couldn't envision a solution so they just ignored the growing problems, the mounting anomalies, and the ever-expanding list of systemic breakdowns until they just ran smack into the tree.  Thelma and Louise baby.

The good thing about the American political system is that it has historically been "self-correcting."  There was a certain genius in the checks and balances designed by the Framers of the Constitution, both within the structure of the American federal government, and its relationship to the States.  Great issues work their way through the political process, from the grass roots level to the institutions of government.  The original design allowed for flexibility and the opportunity for change.  Sometimes, in the case slavery, for instance, it led to violent confrontation.  However, many, if not most issues (i.e. suffrage, civil rights, guaranteed freedoms and liberties) are solved through the peaceful, democratic process.  I don't believe one can make the house a stronger dwelling by tearing away the foundation and destroying the framing.  But that, it seems, is the change that Mr. Obama has promised and tried to enact.
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Julie Marie

There's a difference between using the word "like" and making the statement "it would be identical to".  The analogy was not intended to say Republicans want to gas LGBT people and put them in concentration camps, only that voting for someone who does not support equality when it comes to LGBT people, when you are lesbian, gay, bi or trans, is encouraging more discrimination.  But yes, I do believe certain conservatives would be more than happy to force us into reparative therapy until we're cured.

Quote from: Jamie D on January 11, 2012, 12:33:41 AM
While I am opposed to discrimination and bigotry on all levels, there exist good reasons to oppose specific legislation.  In general, I oppose creating special "classes" or "groups" of persons to afford special rights.  You cannot create social harmony by dividing people into interest groups.  Discrimination will be ended through understanding and education.

Providing equal rights is not supporting special classes or groups.  Saying that non-LGBT people can enjoy certain rights and privileges that LGBT people can't enjoy is.  You can't be fired for being straight but there are states where you can be fired for being gay.  And the rest of the states make you run through the ringer should you be fired for being gay.  Law is one thing, enforcement of those laws is quite another.

The "special rights" thing has been spun about for as long as those who are being discriminated against have demanded equal rights.  And it's total BS!  Those who truly enjoy special rights, the people who aren't being discriminated against because of the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their nationality or their gender identity, are very fond of pulling out the "special rights" claim because they are protecting their own special rights.  They don't want everyone to have the same rights because the pool in which they swim will get more crowded.  They don't want the competition.

So next time you point out special rights, make sure you take a hard look at who truly is enjoying special rights.  Cuz it ain't us.   
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Jamie D

Quote from: Julie Marie on January 12, 2012, 12:44:20 PM
There's a difference between using the word "like" and making the statement "it would be identical to".  The analogy was not intended to say Republicans want to gas LGBT people and put them in concentration camps, only that voting for someone who does not support equality when it comes to LGBT people, when you are lesbian, gay, bi or trans, is encouraging more discrimination.  But yes, I do believe certain conservatives would be more than happy to force us into reparative therapy until we're cured.


Providing equal rights is not supporting special classes or groups.  Saying that non-LGBT people can enjoy certain rights and privileges that LGBT people can't enjoy is.  You can't be fired for being straight but there are states where you can be fired for being gay.  And the rest of the states make you run through the ringer should you be fired for being gay.  Law is one thing, enforcement of those laws is quite another.

The "special rights" thing has been spun about for as long as those who are being discriminated against have demanded equal rights.  And it's total BS!  Those who truly enjoy special rights, the people who aren't being discriminated against because of the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their nationality or their gender identity, are very fond of pulling out the "special rights" claim because they are protecting their own special rights.  They don't want everyone to have the same rights because the pool in which they swim will get more crowded.  They don't want the competition.

So next time you point out special rights, make sure you take a hard look at who truly is enjoying special rights.  Cuz it ain't us.

Your statement was, essentially, "Any transperson who would vote for a Republican is like a Jew who would vote for a Nazi."  You are obviously an intelligent person, so you must realize how hurtful that comparison can be.

Republicans have traditionally and continue to support equal rights. It was the nascent Republican Party that fought to end slavery in the 1850s and 1860s.

It was the Republican Party, in the 1870s, that was the first major party to equal rights for women, including pay equity.

It was the Republican Party that provided the votes to pass the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The problem with all legislation, like ENDA, that create "protected classes," is that they ultimately create preferences, quotas, etc.  As we saw in the Bakke case, preferences, such as affirmative action, can end up as reverse discrimination.

Like Dr.King, I believe that all people should be judged by the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin ... or faith ... or nationality ... or sexual orientation.
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tekla

To be fair the 'Pubs could help out a little and stop acting like they are, and actively begin calling out their 'supporters' who advocate policies that our counter to our national interests and culture.  This ain't the Republican party of the 1800s', and it's absurd to even provide that kind of comparision, just as bad as the Jew/Nazi one.  It ain't even close to the Republican Party of the 1960, who 'provided the votes' (that's 'Pub speak for 'we didn't write or really support the bill but watch us take credit for it anyway') for the Civil Rights Act.  That party was sane.

While I don't think that the Republican Party is racist per se, and indeed has many loyal followers of all stripes, it is the party that's number one with racists.  And while I don't think the Republican Party is totally doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated, it's for sure the party that's number one with people who are.  The Republicans intentionally drew to them the extreme margins of right-wing and Christian thought, and now they are paying the price for that. 


Are those who don't agree with you "racists," "intellectually constipated," "humorless," and "doctrinaire"?
And while I don't find everyone I disagree with to be doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated, I can't ignore that not only do such people exist (and in seemingly record numbers), but they also seem diametrically opposed to the most basic values I cherish, and moreover represent an obstacle to progress and an impediment on the road to change.  They are not just expressing a different point of view as rational people can, coming to differing conclusions based on the same facts, they are actively in the way and have nothing to add to the solution - and, in fact, they oppose the basic notion of a solution that's not based in a rigid ideological state using heavy police powers to enforce their particular notions of conformity.

I'm looking for more democratic solutions that would work to help promote liberty and justice for all in the land of the free and the home of the brave.  I'm not interested in a theocratic police state based on a 2K+ old desert story, nor do I cherish some strange free-market world where a very few have almost everything, and all that could not sink or swim were just left there to float.  We can do better than that, and have to just for basic social stability.

And while the Jew/Nazi comparison might seem heavy-handed (and it is) a comparison between an African-American voting States Rights is valid.  Even if they are not going to kill you, still, why vote in people who oppose your most basic rights?   

To be fair the 'Pubs could help out a little and stop acting like they are...
- Are those who don't agree with you "racists
- "Obama admires and attempts to emulate modern socialism, he a traitor to our founding principals"

...To be fair the 'Pubs could help out a little and stop acting like they are

He's not a socialist, nor a marxist in any sense other than I'm sure he's read the stuff and some of it makes some sense.  He believes in corporatism of the first rank, a 1% - with a wife who was 1% all in her own right - total Ivy League all the way (his wife too) and the Ivy League does not participate in the Young Marxists Program.  Famous American Marxists from Harvard and Yale is a pretty thin volume indeed.  It's not about communism, it's about capitalism and consumerism - that's what they teach.  He's no more or less in support of 'socialist' principals than the general public, or even the American Business Class who signed off on the minor changes in medical stuff. 

And like it or not, he's President of the United States, and not a traitor.  To call him such just seems as over the top as the Jew/Nazi deal.


And while I'm not buying the black-helicopters, FEMA concentration camps, I'm not naive enough to think that we don't have people planning for massive civil disruption either.  Who in charge of making those decisions (when, not 'if') either a systemic breakdown, a natural disaster, a man-made disaster, or a massive economic blow-out occurs on such a scale* as to cause civic order to break down is not a minor issue to consider.  And I for one have little to no faith that someone like Pat Buchanan, Rick Santorum, Sara Palin, and on, and on, and on... would put people in charge who might consider 'gayness' as something to be separated out, or 'good church going folk' as entitled to special treatment and considerations.

* - I'm thinking of a tanker sinking in the Straights of Hormuz, the Euro collapsing, Big West Coast Quake taking out LA or SF, or Seattle (number one port, huge disruption), mono-crop failure, two major refineries going down at the same time, civil insurrection - happy thoughts.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

If I offended anyone it was unintentional and I apologize to anyone offended.  But I do believe the concept of supporting anyone who openly promotes discrimination against you borders on masochism.  How masochistic it is depends on how much you might suffer by supporting them.

Jamie, your references to the Republican party of the past no longer apply to today's presidential candidates.  Even Ronald Reagan would be considered a moderate compared to today's presidential hopefuls.  And I think that's why it's so hard for dyed-in-the-wool Republicans to make up their mind about who they will support this election.  These candidates are too far from their comfort level.  And I think we can credit this extremism at least in part to lobbyists like Grover Norquist.  These lobbyists come to town with boatloads of cash and our elected officials can't turn it down. 

QuoteAnd while the Jew/Nazi comparison might seem heavy-handed (and it is) a comparison between an African-American voting States Rights is valid.  Even if they are not going to kill you, still, why vote in people who oppose your most basic rights?

While my analogy may have been heavy-handed, there is still a death of sorts that some who are discriminated against suffer.  When their discrimination takes away your ability to support yourself financially, your ability to live without fear of physical violence or "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", it's a social death.  I, and many I know, know this first hand.  You come out and suddenly you are lower than whale ->-bleeped-<-.  Suddenly you find yourself unemployed, unable to get a job, pay your bills, feed yourself or your family.  Family and friends abandon you and you find yourself out in the cold.  It's like dying a thousand deaths. 

Then you see these right wing, christian-types standing in front of the mic talking about how we don't deserve the same rights as everyone else and that any attempt to change the attitude of prejudice is the same as creating special rights for us. 

If I could place any one of these dopes in my shoes for a year, they would be singing a very different tune, that is if they didn't take their own life first.  And many of us do.  So maybe my analogy wasn't so heavy-handed after all.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 13, 2012, 09:46:03 AM
To be fair the 'Pubs could help out a little and stop acting like they are, and actively begin calling out their 'supporters' who advocate policies that our counter to our national interests and culture.  This ain't the Republican party of the 1800s', and it's absurd to even provide that kind of comparision, just as bad as the Jew/Nazi one.  It ain't even close to the Republican Party of the 1960, who 'provided the votes' (that's 'Pub speak for 'we didn't write or really support the bill but watch us take credit for it anyway') for the Civil Rights Act.  That party was sane.

(snip)

I think the history of the GOP shows an important trend.

Political change requires the building of consensus.  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 would never have passed solely on the support of the majority Democrat Party.  ENDA did not pass when the Democrats controlled the House, Senate, and Executive branch from 2009 to 2011.

As a way of gauging party support for the CRA , in the House, Republicans voted in support  138-34.  In the Senate, Republicans supported the bill 27-6.

Southern Democrats in the House voted against the bill 7-87; in the Senate against 1-20.
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Jamie D

#88
Quote from: Julie Marie on January 13, 2012, 10:08:05 AM
(Snip)

While my analogy may have been heavy-handed, there is still a death of sorts that some who are discriminated against suffer.  When their discrimination takes away your ability to support yourself financially, your ability to live without fear of physical violence or "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", it's a social death.  I, and many I know, know this first hand.  You come out and suddenly you are lower than whale ->-bleeped-<-.  Suddenly you find yourself unemployed, unable to get a job, pay your bills, feed yourself or your family.  Family and friends abandon you and you find yourself out in the cold.  It's like dying a thousand deaths. 

(Snip)

I admire you for the courage of your convictions.  What you experienced is unforgivable and is every transperson's worst nightmare - me included.

But, as I recall, you live in a State that has ENDA-type legislation, passed by and regulated by the Democrats, and it didn't work for you. The State agency that was supposed to protect your rights, managed by a gay man who should have been supportive of you, failed to do its duty.

Why do you think federal legislation would work any better?

As I said to Terkla in the post, above, the path to real, lasting change, is to build consensus.  That means reaching out to those you have been, heretofore, vilifying.  I believe in bridges, not fences.

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tekla

Well in most places political parties are based on ideology.  But in the US (at least until quite recently) they had some vague ideological values, but there was also a lot of history (there is a reason that until the passage of the Civil Rights Act that most Southern political types were Democrats and not Republicans.  But (and here's that racism again), the passage of the Civil Rights Act (and others) by the Democrats was considered somehow worse than winning the Civil War, and that odious lurch toward liberty and justice for all caused them to leave the party of Civil Rights and turn Republican.

Also other historical factors, as well as cultural and economic factors (and race, ethnicity, social class, occupation, geographical), created an environment where both parties (well the Republicans used to) had members that ranged from tree-huggin' hippie types - or at least social liberals - to rock-ribbed conservatives.  And there are places that irregardless of your ideology if you want to go into political-type stuff you're not really going to have a choice, such is the hold of say the Republicans in rural Texas these days, or the Democrats in SF/Marin/Sonoma.  In those places there really isn't another party, and if you are serious you are going to play in the only game in town. 

Now, of course the notion that the best decisions over time are those that result from a broad based consensus (of reasonable people) is not new.  I think the Greeks called it democracy.  (They also invented the term 'orgy', pretty smart those Greeks were.)  But if you examine times of substantial change that were required by extreme circumstances you'll find that they are largely one party affairs (post-Civil War Reconstruction, The New Deal, The Reagan Years).  And then you have the entire kicker of 'reasonable people' - you know, rational beings.  And in many of those times part of what brought on the troubles was one of the parties was afflicted by some form of temporary madness and drifted far into the extreme where there are no rational people, where there is no reason - and most of all - where any sort of consensus and compromise is impossible.

And that's real close to where a lot of those 'Pub candidates are now (and where the Dems were back in the early 70s - just in the opposite direction).

Besides, I've seen no proof to counter what I said on the first page of this post (and lot's to indicate I was spot-on) - that the fix is in, and it's going to be Mitt, it was always going to be Mitt, that's the way they operate.  It's like going into a championship game with a team that's lost more games then they have won.  And that's Mitt.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 15, 2012, 11:07:11 PM
Well in most places political parties are based on ideology.  But in the US (at least until quite recently) they had some vague ideological values, but there was also a lot of history (there is a reason that until the passage of the Civil Rights Act that most Southern political types were Democrats and not Republicans.  But (and here's that racism again), the passage of the Civil Rights Act (and others) by the Democrats was considered somehow worse than winning the Civil War, and that odious lurch toward liberty and justice for all caused them to leave the party of Civil Rights and turn Republican.

Also other historical factors, as well as cultural and economic factors (and race, ethnicity, social class, occupation, geographical), created an environment where both parties (well the Republicans used to) had members that ranged from tree-huggin' hippie types - or at least social liberals - to rock-ribbed conservatives.  And there are places that irregardless of your ideology if you want to go into political-type stuff you're not really going to have a choice, such is the hold of say the Republicans in rural Texas these days, or the Democrats in SF/Marin/Sonoma.  In those places there really isn't another party, and if you are serious you are going to play in the only game in town. 

Now, of course the notion that the best decisions over time are those that result from a broad based consensus (of reasonable people) is not new.  I think the Greeks called it democracy.  (They also invented the term 'orgy', pretty smart those Greeks were.)  But if you examine times of substantial change that were required by extreme circumstances you'll find that they are largely one party affairs (post-Civil War Reconstruction, The New Deal, The Reagan Years).  And then you have the entire kicker of 'reasonable people' - you know, rational beings.  And in many of those times part of what brought on the troubles was one of the parties was afflicted by some form of temporary madness and drifted far into the extreme where there are no rational people, where there is no reason - and most of all - where any sort of consensus and compromise is impossible.

And that's real close to where a lot of those 'Pub candidates are now (and where the Dems were back in the early 70s - just in the opposite direction).

Besides, I've seen no proof to counter what I said on the first page of this post (and lot's to indicate I was spot-on) - that the fix is in, and it's going to be Mitt, it was always going to be Mitt, that's the way they operate.  It's like going into a championship game with a team that's lost more games then they have won.  And that's Mitt.

Some southern Democrats did go over to the Republican Party.  For example, Strom Thurmond of South Carolina (who, interestingly, fathered a child out-of-wedlock, by a black woman).  But most did not, like George Wallace, Robert Byrd, Harry Byrd, William Fulbright, James Eastland, Russell Long, John Stennis, Lester Maddox.  The list is rather long.

But if you suggest that the Republican Party became a haven for racists, you're wrong.  For example, when David Duke proclaimed himself a Republican, the Louisiana Republican establishment disavowed him.

No real Republican tolerates racial bigotry and prejudice.

I enjoy reading your perspective on these issues, however, your recounting of political history smacks of revisionism!
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tekla

But if you suggest that the Republican Party became a haven for racists, you're wrong.

Well I want to be clear.  I don't think the Republican Party is based on inherent racism, but they did practice it on an institutional level.  There is no doubt however that it is the #1 political party for racists here in 2012.  It began to clearly and openly steer that course in 1966 when it began to pick up people who had left the Dems over the Civil Rights issue, and by 1969 it was the winning strategy in the presidential race, a strategy that every 'Pub running for President followed until the Reagan years when they were just brought into the party outright along with the Christian Right - despite lots, and lots, and lots of warnings from real conservatives like Bill Buckley and Barry Goldwater about what that would do in the long run.

But hey here are some 'real Republicans' saying it.

Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry S. Dent, Sr. and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn't have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "->-bleeped-<-, ->-bleeped-<-, ->-bleeped-<-." By 1968 you can't say "->-bleeped-<-"—that hurts you.  Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.
Bob Herbert,  New York Times, quoting Lee Atwater (advisor of U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush and Chairman of the Republican National Committee) from 1981 interview with the author.

From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that... but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats
Kevin Phillips, one of Nixon's campaign workers in '68 who is credited (perhaps incorrectly as he's pointing out) with coming up with the Southern Stragity.
 
By the '70s and into the '80s and '90s, the Democratic Party solidified its gains in the African American community, and we Republicans did not effectively reach out," Mehlman says in his prepared text. "Some Republicans gave up on winning the African American vote, looking the other way or trying to benefit politically from racial polarization. I am here today as the Republican chairman to tell you we were wrong.
Ken Melman, RNC Chair, apologizing for the Southern Strategty in 2005.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html

If that's not inherently racist, then it's a racism of convenience  - using racism and racists to gain power and money.  Which in it's own way is a lot worse then the average trailer park KKK nut with a confederate flag flying, because those people knew better, and did it anyway.

***

Strom Thurmond of South Carolina (who, interestingly, fathered a child out-of-wedlock, by a black woman).  There is absolutely nothing interesting about that at all.  It's pretty typical behavior for male members of an entitled ruling class to think they can stick their penis into any convenient receptacle and then turn around and deny that person their dignity and most basic human (and American) rights.  So sure, she was OK to ->-bleeped-<-, (and that's spot-on, because he sure didn't 'make love' to her or do it out of tenderness, he just hosed her) but don't let her go to 'your' school, or 'your' church, or swim in the same river as you, or watch a movie in the same theater as you, or show up at your house as anything more than hired help.  I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the ->-bleeped-<- race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches.  That's classic Strom, running for President in 1948.  Oh yeah, he was 22, she was 16 - today we would call that rape/child sexual abuse and he would not be seated in the US Senate he would be being asked by Chris Hansen to 'take a seat over there.'

***

But most did not, like George Wallace, Robert Byrd, Harry Byrd, William Fulbright, James Eastland, Russell Long, John Stennis, Lester Maddox.  The list is rather long.
They didn't then, but by the 80s they would have changed, or just become DINOs like Strom was.  And, at that, in 1954 the Dems blocked Strom from running as a Dem.

***

your recounting of political history smacks of revisionism
That's cute.  I have a word-of-the-day calender too.  But like Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride said: You keep using that word — I don't think it means what you think it means.  What I wrote is pretty much the mainstream consensus in American Political History, the exact polar opposite to 'revisionism'.  Here is how Wiki (the most mainstream source of commonly believed stuff) describes The Southern Strategy:
In American politics, the Southern strategy refers to the Republican Party strategy of winning elections in Southern states by exploiting anti-African American racism and fears of lawlessness among Southern white voters and appealing to fears of growing federal power in social and economic matters (generally lumped under the concept of states rights). Though the "Solid South" had been a longtime Democratic Party stronghold due to the Democratic Party's defense of slavery prior to the American Civil War and segregation for a century thereafter, many white Southern Democrats stopped supporting the party following the civil rights plank of the Democratic campaign in 1948 (triggering the Dixicrats), the African-American Civil Rights Movement, the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965, and desegregation.

I had written:  But in the US (at least until quite recently) they had some vague ideological values, but there was also a lot of history (there is a reason that until the passage of the Civil Rights Act that most Southern political types were Democrats and not Republicans.  But (and here's that racism again), the passage of the Civil Rights Act (and others) by the Democrats was considered somehow worse than winning the Civil War, and that odious lurch toward liberty and justice for all caused them to leave the party of Civil Rights and turn Republican.

That seems to be pretty much the same statement with the same facts, I just write more casually than Wiki does.

And, within the historical profession that's a loaded word.  First of all every work of history is a revision of what has gone before or else there would be no need to write it again. 

Second you really have to do it - I mean come up with a radically different conclusion than is commonly agreed to.  My idea of a classical piece of historical revisionism is a 1974 book called Time on the Cross by Fogel and Engerman where they argued that in the Pre-Civil War era slaves lived longer and healthier lives than their white counterparts in New England factories.  Because slave owners approached slave production as a business enterprise, there were some limits on the amount of exploitation and oppression they inflicted on the slaves, where factories had no such economic incentive to treat their workers well. Fogel based this analysis largely on plantation records and claimed that slaves worked less, were better fed and whipped only occasionally.  Needless to say, that point (as well as some of the others that were actually more important in the book - such as American slavery was extremely productive, more so than Northern farms, and very profitable and was not going to go away on it's own as Southern historians tended to claim - were not exactly received with open arms, or open minds.  Now in that sense I can't claim I'm doing any sort of revision, I'm not a historian in the same ballpark as those two guys, as much as I might want to be.  At least not yet, maybe my technological history of rock music might end up that way.  I can only hope.

And, third, anymore it tends to get used for things like Holocaust deniers and conspiracy kooks, and that's not me either.

And - don't take this wrong but...  I don't think you've read and studied enough of the American Historical cannon to be able to differentiate between the interpretations of the various schools - or even between the schools themselves.  And, not knowing the cannon, you can't know what is - and what is not - revisionism.  Thus your use of the world sounds all 'buzzwordish' (like the Alinsky stuff), it's stuff you've read somewhere as opposed to insight gained from study.

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

Quote from: Jamie D on January 15, 2012, 03:20:49 AM
But, as I recall, you live in a State that has ENDA-type legislation, passed by and regulated by the Democrats, and it didn't work for you. The State agency that was supposed to protect your rights, managed by a gay man who should have been supportive of you, failed to do its duty.

Why do you think federal legislation would work any better?

Yes, Illinois has anti-trans legislation and the department in place to investigate such failed to do its job.  But they don't fail just in the area of trans or even LGBT related claims.  It's an across the board thing.  I've spent a lot of time looking for investigations that found in the Complainant's favor and I have yet to find one.  Even sexual harassment, one of the hot buttons of discrimination, doesn't seem to have any better success in finding for the Complainant.

Is that Democrat or just plain politics?  I say it's the latter.  When you think of the implications to a state that gains a reputation for supporting employees and not employers, it's easy to understand why they so often fail in doing a proper investigation.  Employers would leave to find a state where they are allowed to act however they want without consequence.

But the bottom line is I can see no logical reason to support anyone who refuses to support me in my fight to be seen, in the eyes of the government, as being the same as everyone else.  Today's Pubs have time and again stood steadfast in their refusal to support equal rights for all citizens. 

Rick Santorum has just teamed up with the Family Research Council in a South Carolina rally.  The FRC is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.  FRC's president, Tony Perkins, introduced Santorum at a rally yesterday.  Maybe Santorum thinks Perkins will be able to rid him of his closet gayness.

I have a personal problem with any politician, especially a presidential hopeful, teaming up with a hate group.  But it looks like Newt, the thrice married, adulterous, "let's have an open marriage" (said to his wife suffering from MS), seems to be the darling of the S.C. Republicans.  What does that say about the S.C. voters. 

Maybe it's time to cast a vote for Stephen Colbert Herman Cain.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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tekla

I'm in love with the entire line of Newt's thinking that "It's only wrong when other people do it."  And once the primaries move out of Racist Acres down in SC and Flordia, and more north and west he'll be toast.  But current pols have Romney beating Obama by 7% in Texas.  Trouble being, McCain beat Obama by 15% in Texas in the last election.  And, at that, Obama hasn't even started his campaign.

The Republican Convention might as well be held on Costa Concordia.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Jamie D

Quote from: Julie Marie on January 20, 2012, 10:36:13 AM
Yes, Illinois has anti-trans legislation and the department in place to investigate such failed to do its job.  But they don't fail just in the area of trans or even LGBT related claims.  It's an across the board thing.  I've spent a lot of time looking for investigations that found in the Complainant's favor and I have yet to find one.  Even sexual harassment, one of the hot buttons of discrimination, doesn't seem to have any better success in finding for the Complainant.

Is that Democrat or just plain politics?  I say it's the latter.  When you think of the implications to a state that gains a reputation for supporting employees and not employers, it's easy to understand why they so often fail in doing a proper investigation.  Employers would leave to find a state where they are allowed to act however they want without consequence.

But the bottom line is I can see no logical reason to support anyone who refuses to support me in my fight to be seen, in the eyes of the government, as being the same as everyone else.  Today's Pubs have time and again stood steadfast in their refusal to support equal rights for all citizens. 

Rick Santorum has just teamed up with the Family Research Council in a South Carolina rally.  The FRC is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.  FRC's president, Tony Perkins, introduced Santorum at a rally yesterday.  Maybe Santorum thinks Perkins will be able to rid him of his closet gayness.

I have a personal problem with any politician, especially a presidential hopeful, teaming up with a hate group.  But it looks like Newt, the thrice married, adulterous, "let's have an open marriage" (said to his wife suffering from MS), seems to be the darling of the S.C. Republicans.  What does that say about the S.C. voters. 

Maybe it's time to cast a vote for Stephen Colbert Herman Cain.

The FRC is hardly a "hate group".  It responded to the SPLC by noting that the listing was "the left's smear campaign of conservatives."

But my question to you was, why do you think federal legislation would work any better than the law you have in your own state?
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 20, 2012, 10:49:15 AM
I'm in love with the entire line of Newt's thinking that "It's only wrong when other people do it."  And once the primaries move out of Racist Acres down in SC and Flordia, and more north and west he'll be toast.  But current pols have Romney beating Obama by 7% in Texas.  Trouble being, McCain beat Obama by 15% in Texas in the last election.  And, at that, Obama hasn't even started his campaign.

The Republican Convention might as well be held on Costa Concordia.

You are whistling past the graveyard.  Even the Obama campaign recognizes their perilous situation.  Why do you think they want to raise and spend 1 BILLION dollars to get re-elected?
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Vanora

Quote from: tekla on January 20, 2012, 10:49:15 AM
And once the primaries move out of Racist Acres down in SC and Flordia, and more north and west he'll be toast. 

Newt's not nearly as conservative as many other GOP candidates and has far more sophisticated policy ideas than most movement conservatives. He actually wouldn't dismantle as much of the government as many conservatives.  Must of his super conservative talk is to rally the base.   He'll be toast because he is so irregular and unpredictable with the stuff he says.  He doesn't poll well with independent voters and he can't be trusted not to blow an entire election with one or two stupid comments at exactly the wrong time. 
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tekla

Why do you think they want to raise and spend 1 BILLION dollars to get re-elected?

Because money is speech, and more money is more speech.  It's going to be dumped into swing areas and also into places where the incumbent Republican senators and congresspeople are seen as vulnerable hoping to get a coattail effect, this election is going to be all about control of Congress, they've all but given up on beating Obama, which explains the people they've got running.

Newt, Mister Open Marriage and a master at serial adultery and the only Speaker ever in the history of the US forced to resign on ethics charges running on family values?  That's not going to wash, he's on a book tour, and the more outrageous he is the more books he sells, but also the more independent votes he loses.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Wolfsnake

Quote from: juliekins on December 30, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
That's not a GOP poll, it's an EKG of Michelle Bachman's brain!  :icon_google:

EEG. An EKG is done on the heart, and they'd have trouble finding hers.
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on January 20, 2012, 01:49:26 PM
Why do you think they want to raise and spend 1 BILLION dollars to get re-elected?

Because money is speech, and more money is more speech.  It's going to be dumped into swing areas and also into places where the incumbent Republican senators and congresspeople are seen as vulnerable hoping to get a coattail effect, this election is going to be all about control of Congress, they've all but given up on beating Obama, which explains the people they've got running.

Newt, Mister Open Marriage and a master at serial adultery and the only Speaker ever in the history of the US forced to resign on ethics charges running on family values?  That's not going to wash, he's on a book tour, and the more outrageous he is the more books he sells, but also the more independent votes he loses.

How soon we forget!
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