Do post-ops have sex drive 100% completely DEAD?

[Rosa]

Amen, Joyce! 

[AbraCadabra]

Wow, thank you girls!
For a short while I was thinking to be all alone in this "late transitioner" not "real-transsexual" notion - of course gracefully allowed to stick around the REAL, HBS-standard measured item, that can not suppress it, from the cradle on.

As I said, it seems exceedingly difficult to put oneself into those earlier social environments and situations, for most if not all, of our much younger folks.
That can't be helped as such, but hopefully the presumptive attitude about what is "real..." and what apparently is not "real..."

Lastly what exactly be the definition of a 100% DEAD sex drive?
The more I think about it the less clear it seems to me.
As was mentioned earlier, it has something male, goal directed to it, yet not to say that some females would notice they are NEVER in the mood, often for most by a grumbling partner...
Finding the right partner, and voila libido often wakes up by some magic... :-)

And also, no offence to our young ones - please,
Axélle

[kelly_aus]

I think someone in this thread needs to ditch their 'trannier-than-thou' attitude and go read the WPATH SoC's..

[spacial]

Lastly what exactly be the definition of a 100% DEAD sex drive?

Not intended to be flippant, but could that possibly be ... dead?

If we take sex as simply being an extension of a normal, social relationship, which is what it is, then having no drive means you have no drive to interact with anything.

It's just our modern, notions of being really clever that cause us to think of everything in boxes. Sex is reproduction.

Except it isn't.

If sex were about reproduction then there would be a baby for every time someone had sex. OK, so that might be pedantic, but how many people say, 'Wow, you look nice, let's jump on the back seat so I can end up pregnant!!'?

Sex is just a part of any social relationship. But convention, most, but not all human societies, then to confine it to a single of small group of partners. But it's only ever going to be fun if you treat it as fun.

It just happens. When you least expect it. When it does, you'll be as much up for it as he is. Until then, you have too many other problems to deal with, like paying your electricity bill.

[AbraCadabra]

Spacial,

you funnnny, he he.

But of course you spake some truth, aye.

Axélle

[Bishounen]

First of all: What is your level of gender variance?
Secondly: How old are you?
Late teens, twenties, thirties?
I know you could not possibly be in your forties or older,
to be talking this crap and actually be "transgender"

Are you by any chanse, trying to define who is more worthy to make statements about gendervarianted matters?
Look at my profile after the facts you requests- If you cannot find them there, then it is because I simply do not think it is of anyones concerns.
Sorry.*Shrugs*

and actually be "transgender"

The term 'Transgender'- Wikipedia:

While people self-identify as transgender, transgender identity includes many overlapping categories. These include cross-dresser (CD); transvestite (TV); androgynes; genderqueer; people who live cross-gender; drag kings; and drag queens; and, frequently, transsexual (TS).

Oops. Seems that 'Transgender' is an umbrella term that includes every gendervariant from Transsexual to Drag Queen.
Means that I am included too, sorry.

To nonetheless be polite and answer your inquiries about my Gender Identity, I would best describe it as a mix between Androgyne and HBS; HBS because I never had an "Awakening" as a transitioner I know had, a married Family father  that did not 'realize' his feelings untill middleaged(Now Post-op), but have simply had my Gender since literally a child and also openly dressed accordingly since pre-teens.
And Androgyne, because I despite my Gender nonetheless enjoys having a Non-specific Gender Exression and feels much more free that way than if I were to squeeze myself in a specific Gender ROLE, just because I have a certain brain wiring and feminine expressions.

That being said, there is absolutely no superiour attitude at all in any of my statements if you read them carefully- merely observations.
In fact, you are using more superiority in your statements, as you reason that if someone state something that is not agreeable to you, then that person is not a Transgender.
That, by the very definition, is the Trannier than thou-attitude.
That attitude do not look good on a Transgender-site as Susan's, so I would suggest that you might think over your usage of it.
Just a friendly advice.

I am a "late transitioner" and I feel slighted by the sentiment you set forth in your posting.

No need to, as I did neither intend nor word it as such, and, not the least, I have added on several occasions throughout the thread that this type of transitioner is just as "Valid"as the Born Type.

To assume that some people of my age, just woke up one day and put "Sex Change" on our to-do list is asinine.

In fact, I did not say that at all, please re-read my post.
On the contrary, I do not believe at all that you just woke up and decided it on a whim, no, I said that older transitioners often seem to rather be driven by the idea of living like a woman than already being one in actual brain wiring.
That is the difference(Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with): The Born Transsexual- The HBS- Already have a Crossgendered Brain, and cannot hide their identity nor surpress it, while the person that rather fancys the idea of living like the other Sex, can surpress it as they were not born with Gender Identity of the desired Sex.
However, sometimes and in some cases, a yearning may be, over time, confused for an actual identity, and when a transitioner of the described type tells about their feelings and reasons for wanting to transition, they often say things like "I was always different", "I have always envied the women in my family", "I longed to be a woman", and so on, which they later on takes as conclusive evidence that they must be Born Transsexuals.
Hence, and when communicating with other transitioners, they may modify their back-history to be more "Acceptable" in the eyes of HBS-transsexuals, simply because they do not want to be judged as "Not real"(Because of the famous trannier than thou-attitude) .

From what point of view are you making these assertions?

From people I actually know and have actually met throughout the years- Try it out, you may find it to be very enriching.

[Bishounen]

I think someone in this thread needs to ditch their 'trannier-than-thou' attitude and go read the WPATH SoC's..

Yes, they indeed should. And read the posts alittle better, too.

[Rosa]

That is the difference(Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with): The Born Transsexual- The HBS- Already have a Crossgendered Brain, and cannot hide their identity nor surpress it, while the person that rather fancys the idea of living like the other Sex, can surpress it as they were not born with Gender Identity of the desired Sex.
However, sometimes and in some cases, a yearning may be, over time, confused for an actual identity, and when a transitioner of the described type tells about their feelings and reasons for wanting to transition, they often say things like "I was always different", "I have always envied the women in my family", "I longed to be a woman", and so on, which they later on takes as conclusive evidence that they must be Born Transsexuals.

Gender expression varies greatly by culture, time, and individual.  I don't imagine that most transexual children were allowed to openly express their correct gender without severe reprocussions.  As others have said, we were forced to be someone that we were not, and back in the day before internet didn't even know other such people existed.

No matter how much you deny it in your words, you still imply that late transitioners are inferior to "the born type"  as you call them.  My brain is as female as someone that was allowed to express themselves at an early age.  You make it sound like late transitioners do it out of some fancy notion, but the reality is that opportunities vary for everyone.  If we were allowed to be ourselves without fear, things would have been different, but I for one, was not, unless I would have preferred to get the crap beat out of me by my father and then get put into a psych ward - no thank you.

[Bishounen]

Gender expression varies greatly by culture, time, and individual.

Actually, no, as every known culture on Earth, regardless of Era or place, knows exactly what a feminine male is and can also all describe that feminine male in the same way, despite none of the cultures at the time having ever met each other.
The only thing that differs from cultures, are various "doings" and tasks - However not the actual Gender Expressions. Neither Native Americans or even the Biblical Cultures would agree with you on that.

I don't imagine that most transexual children were allowed to openly express their correct gender without severe reprocussions.  As others have said, we were forced to be someone that we were not, and back in the day before internet didn't even know other such people existed.

It is not a matter of being allowed to express it or not. If a HBS-person could truly surpress themselves, then there would never have been any such individuals ending up in the Psychiatric Wards in the old days, for being- big quote- "deviant".
Christine Jorgenssen changed Sex in the 1950's although even mere Crossdressing was considered "perverted" and even illegal in thosedays, simply because she could not surpress her true identity until at most her early twenties.
A HBS cannot surpress themselves, period.

No matter how much you deny it in your words, you still imply that late transitioners are inferior to "the born type"  as you call them.

Incorrect. In fact, You are- I, on the other side, have never said or even impliyed such a thing- merely that they are different.
Unless, ofcourse, you are implying that being different and have different resons for transitioning is unacceptable..?

My brain is as female as someone that was allowed to express themselves at an early age.

Well then, in that case you are a HBS-transsexual. No need to get your undies in a bunch, in other words.

You make it sound like late transitioners do it out of some fancy notion

Not at all, as I, in fact, stated clearly that it do not applies to all late transitioners.

but the reality is that opportunities vary for everyone.

As I also have stated a few times now.
 

If we were allowed to be ourselves without fear, things would have been different, but I for one, was not, unless I would have preferred to get the crap beat out of me by my father and then get put into a psych ward - no thank you.

So you made the right choise. I have nothing else to say than to congratulate you on doing that choise and walking the path that was right for you.

[Sweet Blue Girl]

Are you by any chanse, trying to define who is more worthy to make statements about gendervarianted matters?
Look at my profile after the facts you requests- If you cannot find them there, then it is because I simply do not think it is of anyones concerns.
Sorry.*Shrugs*The term 'Transgender'- Wikipedia:Oops. Seems that 'Transgender' is an umbrella term that includes every gendervariant from Transsexual to Drag Queen.
Means that I am included too, sorry.

To nonetheless be polite and answer your inquiries about my Gender Identity, I would best describe it as a mix between Androgyne and HBS; HBS because I never had an "Awakening" as a transitioner I know had, a married Family father  that did not 'realize' his feelings untill middleaged(Now Post-op), but have simply had my Gender since literally a child and also openly dressed accordingly since pre-teens.
And Androgyne, because I despite my Gender nonetheless enjoys having a Non-specific Gender Exression and feels much more free that way than if I were to squeeze myself in a specific Gender ROLE, just because I have a certain brain wiring and feminine expressions.

That being said, there is absolutely no superiour attitude at all in any of my statements if you read them carefully- merely observations.
In fact, you are using more superiority in your statements, as you reason that if someone state something that is not agreeable to you, then that person is not a Transgender.
That, by the very definition, is the Trannier than thou-attitude.
That attitude do not look good on a Transgender-site as Susan's, so I would suggest that you might think over your usage of it.
Just a friendly advice.
No need to, as I did neither intend nor word it as such, and, not the least, I have added on several occasions throughout the thread that this type of transitioner is just as "Valid"as the Born Type.
In fact, I did not say that at all, please re-read my post.
On the contrary, I do not believe at all that you just woke up and decided it on a whim, no, I said that older transitioners often seem to rather be driven by the idea of living like a woman than already being one in actual brain wiring.
That is the difference(Which there is absolutely nothing wrong with): The Born Transsexual- The HBS- Already have a Crossgendered Brain, and cannot hide their identity nor surpress it, while the person that rather fancys the idea of living like the other Sex, can surpress it as they were not born with Gender Identity of the desired Sex.
However, sometimes and in some cases, a yearning may be, over time, confused for an actual identity, and when a transitioner of the described type tells about their feelings and reasons for wanting to transition, they often say things like "I was always different", "I have always envied the women in my family", "I longed to be a woman", and so on, which they later on takes as conclusive evidence that they must be Born Transsexuals.
Hence, and when communicating with other transitioners, they may modify their back-history to be more "Acceptable" in the eyes of HBS-transsexuals, simply because they do not want to be judged as "Not real"(Because of the famous trannier than thou-attitude) .
From people I actually know and have actually met throughout the years- Try it out, you may find it to be very enriching.

The born and non born difference is just in your mind my dear. I am ok with it if makes you feel better, maybe even more beautifoul than other unlucky older transgenders.
But i assure you everybody can suppress whatever she is forced to suppress since she is a child, and this is prooven, especially in the psichiatric diseas correlated, making all the assumptions of the inability to suppress for the arian transsexuals and the whole following theory just a non sense, as it is. But again, if it makes you feel better it's ok

As for me
I was always trans, i just had to suppress every desire toward it, sex, friendship, games, even more simple feelings, i lived a chaotic hell for this reason, cause there was no chance to be happy at all triing to act as a man and making my man impersonation satisfy my women needs, and I also have to feel like someone who is less female.
Female or not female is not in things you do, not in the clothes you wear since a child ( if my mother would have put on me a girl dress since i was 4 i think my fate would be different, and i do tried to tell something was wrong with all of the man things for me ) it is a feeling and therefore has no spectrum, you can't quantify a feeling! Try to give a number to it! Some are lucky that can live with their own feelings and be accepted, some have to suppress them.
If you think some is born and some has a different feeling maybe you can just agree with whom beliefs there's no feeling at all and thinks we're just a mass of perverts, it's easier. As you see discrimination never stops.
Hi

We all in this forum are waiting your approval to know if we are female enough

[eli77]

It is not a matter of being allowed to express it or not. If a HBS-person could truly surpress themselves, then there would never have been any such individuals ending up in the Psychiatric Wards in the old days, for being- big quote- "deviant".
Christine Jorgenssen changed Sex in the 1950's although even mere Crossdressing was considered "perverted" and even illegal in thosedays, simply because she could not surpress her true identity until at most her early twenties.
A HBS cannot surpress themselves, period.

Haha! Really? You're bringing up the old HBS categories? You are 30 years out of date there. Those got discarded AGES ago.

And just 'cause you can't hide what you are, doesn't mean you come out, and doesn't mean people get it. When I was growing up in my society, everyone just thought I was gay - no psych wards required. Oh, and I'm a dyke, which means I don't exist as far as those old categories go. Since transsexualism was linked to heterosexuality in Harry Benjamin's model. Hell, even he agreed that the model wasn't right eventually.

[Bishounen]

The born and non born difference is just in your mind my dear.

They are? Funny, I thought they were in every therapists minds, too, as that is, after all, what they base their conclutions on.
But, let us hypothesize that there, as you say, are no differences; If there are none, as you say, then how come there are people that in modern days have been diagnosed as true transsexuals and yet have turned out later on to not be so at all?

Opinions? No, I do not ask for the percentage of regret, but asking why these people exist if every diagnosed transsexual are the same and, "true", as you hint it?

I am ok with it if makes you feel better, maybe even more beautifoul than other unlucky older transgenders.

That is too kind of you. However, I am probably the only one in this thread that do not need such validation.

But i assure you everybody can suppress whatever she is forced to suppress since she is a child, and this is prooven, especially in the psichiatric diseas correlated, making all the assumptions of the inability to suppress for the arian transsexuals and the whole following theory just a non sense, as it is. But again, if it makes you feel better it's ok

Again, please see previous post.^

As for me
I was always trans, i just had to suppress every desire toward it, sex, friendship, games, even more simple feelings, i lived a chaotic hell for this reason, cause there was no chance to be happy at all triing to act as a man and making my man impersonation satisfy my women needs, and I also have to feel like someone who is less female.

Nor have I said that there would be any reason for someone wanting to be a woman to surpress that, regardless of reason.

Female or not female is not in things you do

In fact, it is, as the things you do is a result of the Identity you posses.
I am sorry to be blunt, but it somewhat sounds as if you have been brainwashed by the Gender Neutrality Theory which goes that Gender is Cultural- Not Biological, and hence, Gender Expressions have nothing at all to do with Gender Identity, which, ofcourse, you also know yourself.

not in the clothes you wear since a child ( if my mother would have put on me a girl dress since i was 4 i think my fate would be different, and i do tried to tell something was wrong with all of the man things for me ) it is a feeling and therefore has no spectrum, you can't quantify a feeling!

You do know that Feeling verses Knowledge of Identity is two different matters which not necessarily even needs to be the same thing, right(although it ofcourse also can)?
If you knew you Gender since that age, then your feeling was also correct. However, the way you use "feeling" sounds somewhat vague as if you did not really know what you felt, rather than that you just were different. And as I have demonstrated, feeling different, in these cases, do not necessarily equals HBS.

As you see discrimination never stops.
Hi

Oh I wholeheartedly agree on that.

We all in this forum are waiting your approval to know if we are female enough

You do? I thought you said that you were so sure about yourself already? If you are needing another persons approval about your identity, then that is one of the very few indications that I would take as "Not genuine".


Sincerely/B

[Bishounen]

Haha! Really? You're bringing up the old HBS categories? You are 30 years out of date there. Those got discarded AGES ago.

The Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association's
Standards Of Care For Gender Identity Disorders, Sixth Version
February, 2001 http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf

*Hugs*

And just 'cause you can't hide what you are, doesn't mean you come out, and doesn't mean people get it. When I was growing up in my society, everyone just thought I was gay - no psych wards required. Oh, and I'm a dyke, which means I don't exist as far as those old categories go. Since transsexualism was linked to heterosexuality in Harry Benjamin's model. Hell, even he agreed that the model wasn't right eventually.

If even people today are fighting even over the current guidelines, then for what reason would any guidelines regardless of age, be considered as "perfect" guidelines..?

[Rosa]

Actually, no, as every known culture on Earth, regardless of Era or place, knows exactly what a feminine male is and can also all describe that feminine male in the same way, despite none of the cultures at the time having ever met each other.
The only thing that differs from cultures, are various "doings" and tasks - However not the actual Gender Expressions. Neither Native Americans or even the Biblical Cultures would agree with you on that.

I said "gender expression"  varies.  I can show you some Cambodian men that, by U.S. cultural standards, would be considered very feminine, or even gay, but in their culture they are acting like typical men.  Another example is that both Cambodian men and women wear skirts, but slightly different, yet the difference is probably not noticeable to most westerners who don't know the culture.  Even in western culture, in the past it was unheard of for women to have short hair, but now it is quite common, yet still there are those that consider it masculine. 

My point is that I can be a woman inside yet not express this openly by wearing women's clothes, using female mannerisms, etc.  I have to be concious of it and work at it, but it can be done, even though it leads to greater GID.  Perhaps we just won't agree on this, but I think there are plenty of examples of transexuals who have not expressed their true gender, for a variety of reasons.  To imply that such individuals do not really have brain wiring according to their perceived gender borders on hurtful, imo.

[AbraCadabra]

Is this going ANYWERE? This starts to sound like some cock-fight rather then hen-pecking by now.

Should we consider to lock it?

It's not getting anywhere, as I can see.

Just a dilly old girly saying...
Axélle

[eli77]

The Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association's
Standards Of Care For Gender Identity Disorders, Sixth Version
February, 2001 http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf

*Hugs*
If even people today are fighting even over the current guidelines, then for what reason would any guidelines regardless of age, be considered as "perfect" guidelines..?

First, I'd point out that those guidelines you linked do not in any way include the original Benjamin scale, despite his name being part of the organization that produced them.

Secondly, those are out of date. Here is the current seventh version : http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf

I wouldn't consider any of the guidelines perfect. Where did you possibly get that from anything I wrote? I was just pointing out that the original ones were worse than most. At least from my perspective. I'd be a Benjamin type 6 on all criteria except for sexuality, and just that would have been enough to prevent me from getting help. Thankfully we've moved on since then.

[Bishounen]

I said "gender expression"  varies.  I can show you some Cambodian men that, by U.S. cultural standards, would be considered very feminine, or even gay, but in their culture they are acting like typical men.

Yes, please add some links about those Cultures, they sound very interesting.

Another example is that both Cambodian men and women wear skirts, but slightly different, yet the difference is probably not noticeable to most westerners who don't know the culture.  Even in western culture, in the past it was unheard of for women to have short hair, but now it is quite common, yet still there are those that consider it masculine.

I see your påoint, however I disdagree that it is gender expressions. Hairstyles and clothes says nothing about how a person actually express themselves in movements, speach and behaviour, as a consequence of the persons actual.
For instance, a Cis-woman can put on a suit and a hat and cut her hair short, but that do not mean that her Expression, despite her clothing, is anything else than feminine.

My point is that I can be a woman inside yet not express this openly by wearing women's clothes, using female mannerisms, etc.  I have to be concious of it and work at it, but it can be done, even though it leads to greater GID.  Perhaps we just won't agree on this, but I think there are plenty of examples of transexuals who have not expressed their true gender, for a variety of reasons.  To imply that such individuals do not really have brain wiring according to their perceived gender borders on hurtful, imo.

Ofcourse you can, fully agree about that, and as I also said, the previous examples of people not born with a Crossgendered brain, do not apply to every transitioner but only a type of transitioner, as every transitioner is different.

In my opinion, it is actually more potentially hurtful to suggest that all transitioners, even if they truly are happy, are born transsexuals, as it applies some kind of Superiority in the T-Community that a transitioner HAS to live up to, instead of being allowed to openly be just another type of transitioner and still being accepted for just that.

[Bishounen]

Is this going ANYWERE? This starts to sound like some cock-fight rather then hen-pecking by now.

Should we consider to lock it?

It's not getting anywhere, as I can see.

Just a dilly old girly saying...
Axélle

Seems we finally agree on something. I would not mind having it locked at all.

Funny, and all this only because I stated different reasons for why someone may loose their sexdrive.

[Rosa]

I had to look up what this HBS stuff is, not having any idea.  My information shows that it is a different set of SOC by a non-medical person and it is not endorsed by the medical community, as is the WPATH SOC. 

Even so, the HBS itself says, "Diagnosis:
Harry Benjamin's Syndrome is distinctive in that it is a self-diagnosed condition; that is, people with HBS are exclusively aware of its presence and the onus for articulating its existence lies with them.

Regrettably, most HBS patients are aware of it from early childhood, long before they are old enough to articulate its essence.  As a result, they invariably suffer an existence of prolonged isolation and confusion.  Ironically, once capable of understanding the nature of their dilemma, they are almost universally stigmatized into keeping it secret until such time as they can no longer tolerate suffering its destructive effects. " 

The HBS says that these individuals must often keep their condition secret, ie., not expressing your true self and gender.

Anyway, I agree with Axelle and I'm bowing out of this thread - I have more important things to do, like determine my hose size and find some affordable yet pretty shoes that will fit my big footsies!

[heatherrose]

I have added on several occasions throughout the thread that this type of transitioner is just as "Valid"as the Born Type

Oh hey, thanks for clearing that up. I feel so much better knowing you feel my transition
is valid even though I'm not a "Real Transsexual" because according to you,
I served in the military (like 100's of thousands of other women have),
was married twice to women (like 100's of thousands of lesbians would like to be able to do in the U.S.)
and I had a two decade career as a long haul trucker like 100's of thousands of women do).
After being beaten and threatened with abandonment, as a child, when I told my mother I should have been born female.
Along with being constantly harassed by my school peers because I didn't act like all the other boys
and living a life of self loathing because I was a sick twisted pervert (as it was literally pounded into me
before I realized the only way I was going to survive was to "Man Up")

You are not the first to post such broad generalizations about those of us who, later in life,
could not live a lie any longer and you most likely will not be the last. It is interesting to me
that those blessed with youth are they who make the assertion that they are the only "Real Transsexuals".