What are the most tolerant / nonjudgmental places in the U.S.?

[Katelyn]

What places would you feel ok going around if you don't exactly look like a (non-trans) regular heterosexual person?

I know like in Los Angeles, especially around Hollywood and West Hollywood, and in the city of Long Beach (near the coast).  San Francisco as well.  Other places?

[Kreuzfidel]

Sorry, I got the heck out of the US while I still could.  Come to South Australia.  Quite an eclectic collection of free spirits here.

[Devlyn]

We haven't shut the gate. Anyone who wants to leave the US is free to do so. Sorry, Katelyn, you're two for two on people not answering your question. Hugs, Devlyn

[Annah]

it really depends. Some are worse than others and some have varying degrees of tolerance. If fellow transgender people are intolerant of other transgenders then no matter where you will go will not be a paradise.

My rule of thumb is you make the best of any situation. I live in the middle of Amish country and Im doing fine.

[tekla]

most of the trans-related horror stories seem to come from the US
I think that's a function of importance and ownership more than levels of incidents.  The US invented the media, owns the media, and controls the media and it centers on the US because we basically don't care about anywhere else, and don't think of it as important at any rate.  But I think that the actual reason is that in most places that kind of stuff doesn't get media coverage because it's not rare there, and here it is.  Man bites dog is news, dog bites man is not.  So it stands out here as being outside the mainstream.


Kat's general rules of thumb

- The coastal areas are more liberal than the inland areas.
- Big cities more than small towns.  Largely because people have better things to do.
- Capitol cities (and port cities) tend to be pretty open (Des Moines in Iowa for example), I think its a function of graft and general corruption.
- University towns are pretty liberal, in part because of the higher ed deal and also in part due to the highly transient nature of the population.  But not all colleges and universities are 'liberal'.  But some of the main ones that seem more open are: Ann Arbor in Michigan, Athens in Georgia, Austin in Texas (might be the only place like that in Texas), Madison Wisconsin, and Burlington Vermont.

- Count - bars vs churches.  Best gauge I know of.  Far more bars than churches in SF, far, far more churches than bars in Topeka and Omaha.

Actually in the old days a quick trip though the Yellow Pages would tell you all kinds of things.  Lots of listings for lingerie shops, bakeries is good, lots of therapists, not so good.  Lots of pawn shops?  Not so good.  Actual listings in the Yellow Pages for Sexual Fetish shops - most excellent.

[annette]

Tekla honey, you rock.
Your replies are always full of wisdom and sense of humor.
It looks fun but there is a core of truth in it.
I will take a good look in the yellow pages from now on, before I will visit a city in the US.
BTW, if the US invented the media, I can't see any progress since invention when I look at Fox. lol

[Katelyn]

Sorry, I got the heck out of the US while I still could.  Come to South Australia.  Quite an eclectic collection of free spirits here.

How easy (or hard) is it to get residence there?   Moving to another country is something I've been thinking about for awhile.

[mixie]

Grumble grumble.   I hate when people try to compare Europe or Australia to the United States.   There are about 22 million people in Australia.  Which is approximately the same size as the continental US.  There are 307 million people living in the US.  There about 18 Million people living in New York State and 8 million people living in New Jersey.  So in these two states we've got more people living in TWO STATES than you do in your entire country.

Of course we're going to have more crime,  more problems and more jerks and more uneducated people.   We also have a lot more immigrants.  I live in NYC and here in Brooklyn even the native NYers are much much much more open minded to transgender issues, especially transplants.  But the immigrants are horribly biased.  So the immigrants from Egypt or my husband country of Greece  oh heck no.  Total vicious monsters.  I wouldn't even broach the topic.

But hey the Americans are blamed for it?  That's not really fair.    That's not to say that we don't have our share of ugly prejudiced bigots.  They usually are bible belt folks.  You met one of them on the other site Kelly!!

But in general what was posted by tekla is spot on.  Larger cities with colleges.   Problem is if you have a large number of poor immigrants from other places, they aren't going to fall into the mold that the college.city  concept tends to make.  So you still have problems.

But it isn't only Americans that are the problem.  We also have the same issue in the US when it comes to racism.   I worked in real estate for a while and I can tell you that flat out  Asians and Greeks and Arabs will NEVER rent to a black tenant.  No matter what.   A white guy might.  A white guy might rent to a black military guy.  But those above no way.  And they have no qualms about it at all.   But it gets blamed on white Americans.  It's a pet peeve of mine.

[Annah]

I've always been an Australian.. But I'll second Kreuzfidel's comment.. And say that most of the trans-related horror stories seem to come from the US..

There are also 22.3 million people in Australia. There are 312 million people in the U.S.

Here are some sources of transgender related attacks in Australia:

http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/transgender-hate-and-violence-in-australia/
http://hoydenabouttown.com/20101120.9012/transgender-day-of-remembrance-living-with-the-threat/

Also, from the Australian Government:
Transgender victims appeared to be at risk from a very young age. Almost one-quarter had been sexually assaulted before the age of 11 (22%). One in six had been sexually assaulted in the 11–13 age range. A further 42 per cent had been sexually assaulted between the ages of 14 and 25 (CDHSH 1994,p. 38).
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/4/3/6/%7B43630977-E669-46BD-ADCC-6B0766447C31%7DRPP36.pdf

Police brutality among transgender women in Australia:
http://www.gendercentre.org.au/39article2.htm

Another Australian report shows that 56% of transgender people experienced homophobic abuse, harassment and or violence (Australian's LGBT Health)

I am not trying to show that Australia is a horrible place to live but I am trying to convey that based on the demographic ratios of general population and violence, it would be inaccurate to say that most of all the transgender violence comes from the US.

Based on ratios, if Australia had 300+ million people, I am sure the violence ratios would be identical.

My point is, there is no "Emerald City of Oz." You have to look around and find areas that are more tolerant than others. I would be over reaching if I said an entire country is completely compassionate or tolerant.

[Annah]

Grumble grumble.   I hate when people try to compare Europe or Australia to the United States.   There are about 22 million people in Australia.  Which is approximately the same size as the continental US.  There are 307 million people living in the US.  There about 18 Million people living in New York State and 8 million people living in New Jersey.  So in these two states we've got more people living in TWO STATES than you do in your entire country.

Of course we're going to have more crime,  more problems and more jerks and more uneducated people.   We also have a lot more immigrants.  I live in NYC and here in Brooklyn even the native NYers are much much much more open minded to transgender issues, especially transplants.  But the immigrants are horribly biased.  So the immigrants from Egypt or my husband country of Greece  oh heck no.  Total vicious monsters.  I wouldn't even broach the topic.

But hey the Americans are blamed for it?  That's not really fair.    That's not to say that we don't have our share of ugly prejudiced bigots.  They usually are bible belt folks.  You met one of them on the other site Kelly!!

But in general what was posted by tekla is spot on.  Larger cities with colleges.   Problem is if you have a large number of poor immigrants from other places, they aren't going to fall into the mold that the college.city  concept tends to make.  So you still have problems.

But it isn't only Americans that are the problem.  We also have the same issue in the US when it comes to racism.   I worked in real estate for a while and I can tell you that flat out  Asians and Greeks and Arabs will NEVER rent to a black tenant.  No matter what.   A white guy might.  A white guy might rent to a black military guy.  But those above no way.  And they have no qualms about it at all.   But it gets blamed on white Americans.  It's a pet peeve of mine.

I should have read your comment first before posting but it's nice to see someone else on the same wave length.

[mixie]

LOL you can tell me and Annah both went to seminary.  We just leapt straight for the statistics, information and data.  Then played the exact same argument!  LOL

I think that we get upset here in the states because of the way the big mouths paint us in the media.  Like seriously I know about 10 very religious people. When I went to seminary we had two transgenders and one Gender Queer.   Very open minded.  Even the religious people I do know, the orthodox Jews are respectful of homosexuality.  There's actually a statistic that the more Catholics that live in a city the better the situation seems to be for gay folks.  But the way the media paints it, it's as if a good portion of the US is made up of the West Boro Baptist church types.

Then we also have this grief in the US of being told we're narrow minded if we don't travel.  And we get loads of Europeans totting off how they travel all over Europe.  Well Europe is less than traveling all over the US and it's cheaper to fly domestically and you can go to Hawaii, Grand Canyon,  Alaska, Yosemite   the Florida Keys, The Mountains of Vermont,  Oregon and Seattle etc etc not to mention major cities.

But since it's all one country we are narrow minded.   


We get grief a lot from people who don't realize how diverse the US is, and how different the states are.   If I tried to move to Savannah Georgia I'd probably be laughed out of the city as a Yankee not to mention a Brooklynite.   And it's all flipped around all over the US.  States can be very different from one another. So people get all prickly because we hate being lumped together.

Especially us snobs who think we're better than everyone else.  LOL

[Annah]

LOL you can tell me and Annah both went to seminary.  We just leapt straight for the statistics, information and data.  Then played the exact same argument!  LOL

Hell, when your degrees focus on theology and philosophy, sources are vital are you'll just end up sounding like Jim Jones or Pat Robertson

[Annah]

For example, when I first started to venture in to finding things out, I was told be a large number of US-based trans women that I would lose all my friends and family, as it had happened to them.. Didn't happen to me..

It didn't happen to me either and I live in the U.S. It didn't happen to my childhood best friend who was transgender too (long story).

There are always to sides to a coin. There are bad and there are good stories. It happens everywhere across this crazy planet.

[cindianna_jones]

I know this is moving off topic somewhat... sorry. But I really like Mixie's comments. I believe there are two factors in the way we US citizens are seen from the rest of the world. First: We really don't like each other. It's not generally true but there are enough of us who believe that everyone and anyone different is evil in some way. These bull pies get on the news. Second: We have news media that exacerbates these situations.

I have to go through a few hoops to get news from around the world... or at least go out of my way to pick up something like BBC or that "hostile organization" AJ. I only put the initials ther. AJ actually is very respectable about reporting news without opinion.  BUT, even those organizations push US "news" that has a similar but toned down slant as broadcast here. We are our own worst enemeis... at least those outlets that push out the crap.

Back to the subject... Tekla has it pegged as usual. It's good advice.

Cindi

[Anatta]

What places would you feel ok going around if you don't exactly look like a (non-trans) regular heterosexual person?

I know like in Los Angeles, especially around Hollywood and West Hollywood, and in the city of Long Beach (near the coast).  San Francisco as well.  Other places?

Kia Ora Katelyn,

Tekla's response makes a lot of sense[Tekla being a Yank and all]

However I would like to add this.... Most big cities[in Western countries*including the US*] have what one would call 'liberal' suburbs['gender nonconforming' -people friendly areas of the city], but I doubt that there are cities where 'all' the suburbs are equally as  'liberal'[Especially if one is obviously trans-'identifiable' even after they have transitioned ]...

  Finally, when and if you are able to blend-in as your target gender'[and if you decide to go stealth] the world's your oyster and you can move to any city you like-even 'hell' [those cities in the bible belt !]

Good luck on your quest....

Metta Zenda

[tekla]

at least those outlets that push out the crap

Or they are:
a) editing it out for political/economic reasons
b) censoring it
c) sanitizing it for the masses

That you don't hear about it - because the local media is not reporting it - does not mean it's not happening. 


We also have a lot more immigrants.

In numbers that the rest of the world can't even begin to imagine.  Just check out some of these stats.

- New York City has more Jews than Israel
- It also has more Puerto Ricans  than Puerto Rico
- Chicago has more Polish people than any other place except Warsaw.
- LA is the second largest Spanish speaking city after Mexico City.  More than any actual Spanish city.
- San Francisco has the largest Chinese New Year celebration outside of China.  It also has the largest collection of Asian Art outside of Asia.


There are about 22 million people in Australia
Congratulations, your entire nation is as big as our SECOND largest metro area.  So yeah, the problems increase with the number of people.

[mixie]

Not to beat a dead horse but Astoria Queens has the second largest group of Greeks in the world outside of Athens Greece.

And landwise Australia is almost the same size as the US just most of it is not habitable.

We've got a few Ozzies on tonight.  I do think Americans adore people from Australia.  But it gets tiring when people don't understand.  That's what you can sort of see a knee jerk reaction here.  To say that you understand that the US is as diverse as Australia is a teeny tiny bit upsetting.   It's just a little irk.  Not really a big deal but since so many people say these kinds of things it's a bit annoying.

But the diversity is not the same at all around the world.  Not at all.  I think the closest I would see is the way Ukranians loath being confused as Russians.   

like someone said  People in the US do not like being confused with others. People in Texas nearly want to succeed from the nation.   They do not like Yankee liberal NYer at all.

So it's not just that the country itself is filled like any other country around the world is,  with diversity.  It's that most other countries have no idea what kind of culture actually exists inside the US.  There's such a blanket to our culture.  But within the US there are the equivalent of 50 countries.  At least broken down into 6 very different regions.  You simply do not have the kind of diversity even LANDWISE in other parts of the world that you do in the United States.  The land itself creates different cultures.

We have deserts, frozen tundras,  great lakes,  plains,  volcanic islands,  ski slopes,  hot springs,  mountain ranges and lush tropical marshlands,  there is nearly every kind of area in the US except for a tropical rainforest.   And this is why it's so diverse .  The people are diverse already.  In fact one of the most similar things you will find in the US is all the different ethnic groups in all the different cities that are immigrants.  So Chinatown in San Francisco is the same as Chinatown in NYC and Chinatown in Washington DC.

But the religious beliefs, cultures etc of Americans are so very diverse.  People wind up moving to large cities that sort of match what they feel inside.


Gosh Kelly don't think all this is aimed at you.  This thread just touched a nerve with us it seems.   Hugs.

[mixie]

You did see where I said none of it was directed at you!   LOL  Seriously.  It's just one of those things.   Nothing at all to do with you.   People have had these thoughts forever.  Its not about what you said at all.   

Nothing you say or do is wrong.  I adore you!

[Kreuzfidel]

How easy (or hard) is it to get residence there?   Moving to another country is something I've been thinking about for awhile.

Depends on which visa you want.  Working visas seem relatively easy to obtain as long as you work in one of the specified eligible careers.  Also you need to not have a substantial criminal record.

[annette]

I travelled to a lot of places in the US.
I have met friendly helpfull people and I have met ->-bleeped-<-s.
I'm living in Europe.
I have met friendly helpfull people and ->-bleeped-<-s.
What I want to say is, there are ->-bleeped-<-s everywhere and there are nice people everywhere.
The trick is to find the good people and leave the ->-bleeped-<-s alone.
There is no place with only good or bad people not in the US, not in Europe and probally not in Australia.