Harry Benjamin Syndrome

[MaxAloysius]

I believe it is a physical issue, but as I'm most certainly a transsexual and boringly normal, at least from a hormonal, genetic and chromosomal standpoint, I find it hard to see where I'd fit in to the Intersex side of things..

And having asked the question of someone I know who is Intersexed, she certainly wasn't angry, but was quite clear that her Klinefelters and her transsexualism were separate issues..

Thank you.

Personally, I don't think we have a way of being completely certain of these things yet; there is still so much about the human brain and body we don't know. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for any new research!

[eli77]

Bane, you are ruffling feathers because of what HBS represents and the kind of people who support it. My andro dyke self, for example, would be excluded from the diagnosis. So it's kind of hard for me to see any value to the concept.

Also, you aren't really going to find any intersex folk here. They don't generally inhabit trans spaces unless they also identify as trans, regardless of the name of this board. You'd need to go to an actual intersex forum if you want to talk to them.

[MaxAloysius]

Bane, you are ruffling feathers because of what HBS represents and the kind of people who support it.

A fact I'm being made increasingly aware of! It was not my intention to do so, and I think in future I'll be certain to keep all mention of HBS out of my posts; it's not proving to be a very useful tool when proposing the future integration of trans and intersex people.

Also, you aren't really going to find any intersex folk here. They don't generally inhabit trans spaces unless they also identify as trans, regardless of the name of this board. You'd need to go to an actual intersex forum if you want to talk to them.

Yeah, I can see that now. Normally I don't stray out of the FTM section of the forum, so I was unaware of the lack of intersex people here. I think I'll wait a little while, and allow my diplomacy metre to fill back up, before I head on over to one such place to ask the question again.

[Bishounen]

Bane, you are ruffling feathers because of what HBS represents and the kind of people who support it. My andro dyke self, for example, would be excluded from the diagnosis. So it's kind of hard for me to see any value to the concept.

I definitely disagree that Bane, on a whole, "ruffles feathers" as he is merely bringing up a very noteworthy subject, that also evidentily bare direct importance in some aspects.
Given, he is nonetheless certainly "ruffling feathers" of some, as there are some that do get their undies in a twist because of this subject. However, I consider that as just being healthy, as it provokes thinking and new ideas, instead of everyone just sitting in a group and agreeing on each other with the exactly same ideas and jargongs.

Also, you aren't really going to find any intersex folk here. They don't generally inhabit trans spaces unless they also identify as trans, regardless of the name of this board. You'd need to go to an actual intersex forum if you want to talk to them.

I think you mean "on this forum"- Not board.

At susan's, there are plenty of Intersexed individuals that may or may not identify as transgendered as there are simply a Sub-forum for those right here on this TG-board.
However, it is a fact that quite many people that matches the so called HBS-transsexual, do indeed have intersexed Conditions, such as, for instance, Kleinfelters being perhaps one of the most common of those.
Often the Transsexual is even totally unaware about even having this condition, and do often not learn about it until when either having Blood Tests done as a routine before starting Hormones(such as Caroline Cossey, that before the tests had no idea of it at all), or, when having totally unrelated happenings and accidents, such as Chloe Prince, that was living as a man at the time and did not learn about his condition until having an accident, which revealed Klienfelters.
This means, that the number of undetected selfidentified transsexuals with Intersex Conditions that goes without detection because they selfmedicate, are much larger than those that are detected.
Ofcourse, it also at the same time means that those that do not selfidentify as Transgendered at all and yet have this Condition, is larger, too.

In either case, I see no reason to specifically seek out an Intersex Board, as it doesn't really say anything else than that some Intersexed people do not identify as Transsexuals and hence seek out a territory of their own.

[eli77]

I think I'll wait a little while, and allow my diplomacy metre to fill back up, before I head on over to one such place to ask the question again.

Aww, I'm sorry we've been giving you a hard time. The girls do tend to bite a bit harder than the boys on these forums.

I am very impressed you've managed to remain unfailingly polite throughout.

[MaxAloysius]

Aww, I'm sorry we've been giving you a hard time. The girls do tend to bite a bit harder than the boys on these forums.

I am very impressed you've managed to remain unfailingly polite throughout.

Thank you very much.

Hahaha, I had noticed that the guys seem a little more 'chill' on the subject than the girls.

[AbraCadabra]

@Bane
Here is why the girls get chafed.

Imagine you had Metoidioplasty and the some non-scientific smart-ass syndrome expert(s), based on some old guys findings HB, tells you you did it just so you always wanted to know it is to have a dick...
That's your only motivation dude, - if otherwise you got your act together i.e. are not a nut.

Maybe that will give some idea?

In fact EVEN to USE words like "vagina" or "clitoris" or even "female" (now it better be AFAB) is a generally banned thing to do on the FtM side, yes?
I know, I made the mistake and not all in only one post either. So we learn.

The comparable words do NOT cause any of that hoe-ha with MtFs, not that I ever noticed.

So, now we just figured out that being a "not-transsexual-at-birth" according to this HBS idea, makes you some sort of second rate trans-women (if at all!) – and then gracefully accepted, oh how NICE that is to know.

This is NOT against your innocent enquiry, it is to explain the emotions that are stirred.

@ Sara Louise
Now I really hope this is still in the realm of being civil and friendly - I shall see, um.

Axélle

[MaxAloysius]

@Bane
Here is why the girls get chafed.

Thank you Axelle, I am aware of that now, and as I have said I won't be using HBS as an example in future; I now realise that it's a lot more on the wrong side than the kind of term/condition I was aiming for.

[Rosa]

I think that transexuality is probably actually an intersex condition; however, until there is enough peer reviewed research that indicates this condition has a physical cause we are probably going to have to continue to work under the diagnosis of GID in order to get treatment, even if we don't think it is a mental condition.  If we are experiencing gender dysphoria we can agree that we are experiencing emotional discomfort, but the treatment is physical (except for some quacks that want to convince us its in our minds).  This is why we have WPATH though. 

However, there are plenty of intersex folks who are not transexual.  Though being able to be under the intersex banner might make life easier for transexuals, the same thing could be accomplished through continued education (of the general public and the medical community) and by continued scientific research. 

If they wanted to, gays and lesbians could make a similar claim saying that they too have an intersex condition (of the portion of the brain responsible for sexual orientation) and that the condition is physical, yet there is not enough scientific evidence for this, plus, even though sexual orientation is part of one's sexuality, it would cause some strife trying to include sexual orientation into a category of gender.

Admitedly, if I could say that I have wet cat syndrome and it would get me help with HRT and SRS I could probably go along with it (but I would have to draw the line at wet dog syndrome - OK, back to seriousness . . . )

[drkprincess]

I am intersexed and would be happy to give you my thoughts, I will try and do this later tonight. I keep starting a post but there is alot to comment on so I think I need to read this several times more and collect my thoughts. And I dont really know anything about this so called theory so I am going to try and read a bit of it but I will hit on what I think about transsexual and intersexual being grouped together.

[MaxAloysius]

And I dont really know anything about this so called theory so I am going to try and read a bit of it but I will hit on what I think about transsexual and intersexual being grouped together.

It's actually probably better if you don't. I think it's obvious that that specific label or classification is not an acceptable one. The basic idea of it is still sound in my mind though, which was that if trans people can be determined to have a physical abnormality in the brain causing their condition, then they could be considered to be a particular kind of 'intersex'. The root of it being to form the idea that being trans is a physical condition based in the brain, and not a mental one.

[eli77]

It's actually probably better if you don't. I think it's obvious that that specific label or classification is not an acceptable one. The basic idea of it is still sound in my mind though, which was that if trans people can be determined to have a physical abnormality in the brain causing their condition, then they could be considered to be a particular kind of 'intersex'. The root of it being to form the idea that being trans is a physical condition based in the brain, and not a mental one.

This is sort of a different issue, but I'd just like to mention that all mental conditions are essentially a physical abnormality of the brain. We are chunks of meat when it comes right down to it, and "mental issues" are not some ephemera in the "consciousness" they are things that are physically occurring inside the control centre of our bodies. The reason they tend to be grouped separately mostly has to do with the fact that our brains are damn complicated and we have a ways to go before we figure out exactly how they work.

I kinda feel the obsessive desire to have transsexualism declassified as a mental condition is a bit... well, it just has to do with the stigma associated with mental conditions. A lot of the conditions in the DSM have physical treatments like pills or surgery, not just GID. Anyway, I always find that distinction between mental and physical a bit dishonest, 'cause in the end it is all physical. There isn't anything else for it to be.