Psych Out

[Misato]

Bah!

Against the advice of the members of this forum I outed myself to a perspective employer.  Or at least I thought I did.  The reason I did was the idea of going through the hiring process and then coming out once I got hired or sometime there after feels wrong to me, dishonest or something like that.  Oh well, that's water under the bridge cause I clarified the situation thinking things were cool.  The recruiter was shocked!  And she was in California.  Near San Francisco.  Come on.

Brief tangent, I keep on running into recruiters who are not very good at their job.  If someone sends you an e-mail outing themselves as transgender, and you don't understand the word as apparently this recruiter didn't, don't you think you should go look that one up?  Trans + Gender = two loaded words.

Anyway, I've been priming and preening for the last week getting ready for this thing.  New and quality skirt suit (Always dress for the job higher than the one you're interviewing for).  I've been taking care of my skin extra well and it feels FANTASTIC!  I got a makeup consultation and tips and a load of new makeup.  I wanted to look my best because I'm not on hormones yet and I've only been near full time (I have to say near because there is one class I remain male for as a gesture to my SO.  She's wigging out and I love her but that's getting into a topic for another thread) a month.  I know I don't pass well at all, but even when I'm seen as a trans-woman I feel better cause at least it's closer to home.  I can be more natural with people.

I can't stand being a guy.  I hate that my classmates keep getting their pronouns wrong when referring to me.  So I thought I should present myself as my true self to try and make things easier for my hopefully future co-workers.  Not to mention my personality does shift when I dress as myself.  I'm more talkative, happier, I don't feel so stressed out.  Part of the interview process is answering the question, "Can I work with this person?"  If I present as a male they're not going to get a proper answer.

It wouldn't be so bad if the job didn't look so good and it would likely give me the ability to keep my current therapist who I really, really like.  Also I'm near out of time to put together another outfit.  I don't have a car though I will be renting one tomorrow so I might still be able to get another outfit then.

My head is screaming I know what I need to do.  Right now I have the heels I'd be wearing on trying to break them in so I can stand and whiteboard code.  I hate whiteboard coding...  And now I remember that I just didn't do hot on my algorithms midterm so that's shaking my confidence.

I need to click post and I need to eat some cookies.  I am throughly psyched out.

[Beth Andrea]

Against the advice of the members of this forum I outed myself to a perspective employer.  Or at least I thought I did.  The reason I did was the idea of going through the hiring process and then coming out once I got hired or sometime there after feels wrong to me, dishonest or something like that.  Oh well, that's water under the bridge cause I clarified the situation thinking things were cool.  The recruiter was shocked!  And she was in California.  Near San Francisco.  Come on.

As a general rule, you're not deceiving anyone by not announcing your gender status. In fact, unless the job specifically calls for "male" or "female", I *think* it's illegal for an interviewer to even ask.

(I can't think of any job that is gender-specific, other than "fertilization" and "carrying a baby to term.") They also can't ask marital status, disability, or a number of things. If they do ask, you are within your rights (in the US) to refuse to answer...be polite about it, but be firm.

Of course, they rely on the question, "Tell me a little about yourself" in order for you to volunteer the information to these (and other) questions.

All that being said...if the recruiter sent you a reply saying anything to the effect of, "Oh, you're trans? We don't want any of *those* kind here...", you very likely have a really good chance at a discrimination lawsuit. DO NOT DELETE THAT EMAIL.

Good luck! And, in my experience, employers don't really care all that much about grades (unless they're really bad grades LOL), they care more about how well you can interact with others. Put on a smile, make your interviewer your new friend.

[Misato]

The shock the recruiter had was an "Oh My God" I believe it was.  But then after a moment she carried on like nothing ever happened.

I'm going to do one of those sleep on it things.  I have the employer to think about and even more importantly the feelings of my SO.  We've been living apart while I discovered and accepted myself and that distance has created additional difficulty.  I also have been moving quite fast of late, what with going near full time, and since she only gets nightly updates via video chat she's understandably afraid.

[Rabbit]

It seems like you are trying to rush transition... way way way way too fast.

When a person rushes in their transition, they tend to start presenting in ways which simply don't work with how they look (which can be extremely off-putting to those around you).

Did you meet with the person in your skirt suit and other stuff? Meeting them in "male mode" and then suddenly switching creates a shock... and that is definitely something you want to avoid (because sudden changes are off-putting to those around you).

From the start of my transition, I thought a lot about how to avoid others having negative reactions.

Main goal (for me): Avoid being seen as "a freak" or "man-in-a-dress"... I didn't want to end up as a negative stereotype of trans people. It was important for me that others saw my presentation as something that looked nice ... instead of a possible fetish.

Basically to do this...go slow!! Going slow lets you slowly adjust your presentation so it doesn't shock those around you. It also lets you get things right and keeps you from making major mistakes in makeup or clothing or anything like that. It also gives hormones a chance to actually work... and allows you to be comfortable with each change (as they are small).... and when you are comfortable and confident, you come across positive and welcoming.

I have been on hormones for a year and only just began adding in female clothing (and even then, the clothing choices are careful.... picking things that work with how I look ~a bit androgynous~. So, button down shirts with a bit different cut. Or a nice classy trench coat in a female style.)

And really, during my entire transition this has worked sooooo well I haven't had any "omg wtf" looks. I have had "hmm, interesting" looks... but nothing that seemed like disgust or negativity (and this isn't just because I live in california... I have also went back to kansas for a week and didn't have any issues).



There is no problem being trans. But it isn't something you should rub in peoples faces (like telling your employer). You should just be careful to present in a nice way (one that works with how you look)... and no one will have a problem with it. Transitioning isn't really everyones business. If you do it slowly and carefully, those around you (like at work) can get used to each little change and they will much more easily accept it.

[Padma]

I think it's best to be up-front with prospective employers. If you need to take time out of work for surgery and so forth later on, you'll get much more support from your employers if you're not suddenly springing it on them. And it weeds out the... well, the employers who aren't comfortable with trans employees (and then why would you want to be working there anyway?)

[Rabbit]

I think it's best to be up-front with prospective employers.

Eh, I don't think it is. As long as you are doing your job ... it isn't their business.

Here in california, transgendered people are protected from discrimination.

[JenJen2011]

I remember years ago when I was looking for a job I put transgendered on my resume. That was the stupidest thing ever. And of course, I never got a call. So, I also don't agree that being upfront is better. It's none of their business until you make it their business.

Best of luck to you OP!

[Padma]

I get your point(s), but I think it depends on whether you're transitioning or transitioned. Once I've transitioned, I'll just be legally female and that's all they need to know. During transition, I want support and respect from any employer I end up with, and that respect goes both ways. Which is why I'd be inclined to mention it at some point before actually beginning employment (i.e. after being offered a post), and be prepared to discuss it at interview if it comes up.

But everyone needs to do what they feel is most appropriate in their situation.

[JenJen2011]

Oh okay, true. Like if you want to present female but your ID still says male or has your birth name on it. I understand that. I think that would make it much more difficult though so like Rabbit said, things should be taken slow.

I was lucky to have transitioned on the job and had the support of my employers. Then I quit, continued my transition, finished getting my legal documents changed, and started applying as a woman once I felt ready.

[Jeneva]

Oh okay, true. Like if you want to present female but your ID still says male or has your birth name on it. I understand that. I think that would make it much more difficult though so like Rabbit said, things should be taken slow.

I was lucky to have transitioned on the job and had the support of my employers. Then I quit, continued my transition, finished getting my legal documents changed, and started applying as a woman once I felt ready.

Unfortunately some of us live in states that won't change our IDs until surgery.  My ID still has M and I can't change it without full blown SRS.  The woman that got arrested a while back for indecent exposure was protesting TN not allowing her to change her ID with just an orchidectomy.

I have been very lucky with my employer and they are very supportive, but it'll be at least another year before I can afford SRS so I'd have to come out in the interview process if I switched jobs now.

[JenJen2011]

My state has strict requirements that have to be completed before being able to change the gender marker on my ID. I went into the DMV to change my name, not expecting anything else. The customer service rep asked me if I was going through a sex change and I replied, yes. He handed me my new ID and I was ecstatic because he changed it to F. So, I was just lucky. Regardless though, many jobs do a background check so more than likely they will see your birth name and possibly the M on social security card if not changed.

[Rabbit]

During transition, I want support and respect from any employer I end up with, and that respect goes both ways.

I treat being trans the same way I treat being jewish. I am proud of it, and don't try to hide it... but don't run around pointing it out when I meet someone. Not because I'm ashamed, but simply because to me it isn't an issue... like having brown hair.

I'm transitioning in school, and don't feel it is anyones business. Of course, I have told an instructor or two I was trans... but that was when they made negative comments about trans people during class (and then we had a nice chat about it, where I informed them I would not tolerate such comments).

I don't want respect... I DEMAND it.

I didn't ask the school for permission to transition... what I do with my body is none of their concern. I really don't care how they feel about it, as long as they don't voice their issues around me and that treat me with the same respect I give them. If they step out of line, I have the law on my side and have no problems crying bloody murder if they start to discriminate against me.


But, for those without legal protection... it definitely would be an issue. I would try very very hard to avoid companies without policies in favor of trans people. If you can't find a company like that... then... well...at least try to land the job first, then getting rid of you and re-hiring will be a lot harder for them than simply rejecting your application.

[Misato]

Woah!  More response than I expected to find.

Going slow carried the day.  Was a rush to get male attire in time but I pulled it off.  I did mention being trans once but the person I was interviewing with at that moment didn't even blink. I only mentioned it because I really do think that one reason I'm very good at my job is because I was socially awkward growing up and so instead of being social I threw myself at tech and software.

In the end I think the interview went well.  I think I'm glad they know about me, I think I'm glad I went as a male.  What's done is done, now it's just the waiting game.

[Misato]

And it weeds out the... well, the employers who aren't comfortable with trans employees (and then why would you want to be working there anyway?)

Indeed, I wouldn't want to work someplace that only accepts me because it's the law.  I was thinking along these exact lines when I came out during this interview process.

[Ultimus]

It seems like you are trying to rush transition... way way way way too fast.

When a person rushes in their transition, they tend to start presenting in ways which simply don't work with how they look (which can be extremely off-putting to those around you).

Did you meet with the person in your skirt suit and other stuff? Meeting them in "male mode" and then suddenly switching creates a shock... and that is definitely something you want to avoid (because sudden changes are off-putting to those around you).

From the start of my transition, I thought a lot about how to avoid others having negative reactions.

Main goal (for me): Avoid being seen as "a freak" or "man-in-a-dress"... I didn't want to end up as a negative stereotype of trans people. It was important for me that others saw my presentation as something that looked nice ... instead of a possible fetish.

Basically to do this...go slow!! Going slow lets you slowly adjust your presentation so it doesn't shock those around you. It also lets you get things right and keeps you from making major mistakes in makeup or clothing or anything like that. It also gives hormones a chance to actually work... and allows you to be comfortable with each change (as they are small).... and when you are comfortable and confident, you come across positive and welcoming.

I have been on hormones for a year and only just began adding in female clothing (and even then, the clothing choices are careful.... picking things that work with how I look ~a bit androgynous~. So, button down shirts with a bit different cut. Or a nice classy trench coat in a female style.)

And really, during my entire transition this has worked sooooo well I haven't had any "omg wtf" looks. I have had "hmm, interesting" looks... but nothing that seemed like disgust or negativity (and this isn't just because I live in california... I have also went back to kansas for a week and didn't have any issues).



There is no problem being trans. But it isn't something you should rub in peoples faces (like telling your employer). You should just be careful to present in a nice way (one that works with how you look)... and no one will have a problem with it. Transitioning isn't really everyones business. If you do it slowly and carefully, those around you (like at work) can get used to each little change and they will much more easily accept it.

This.

[Jeneva]

My state has strict requirements that have to be completed before being able to change the gender marker on my ID. I went into the DMV to change my name, not expecting anything else. The customer service rep asked me if I was going through a sex change and I replied, yes. He handed me my new ID and I was ecstatic because he changed it to F. So, I was just lucky. Regardless though, many jobs do a background check so more than likely they will see your birth name and possibly the M on social security card if not changed.

That is too cool.  The lady that did my DL name change was very polite and friendly and almost apologetically told me that she couldn't change anything but the name for now.

[rachl]

I get your point(s), but I think it depends on whether you're transitioning or transitioned. Once I've transitioned, I'll just be legally female and that's all they need to know. During transition, I want support and respect from any employer I end up with, and that respect goes both ways. Which is why I'd be inclined to mention it at some point before actually beginning employment (i.e. after being offered a post), and be prepared to discuss it at interview if it comes up.

But everyone needs to do what they feel is most appropriate in their situation.

It's critical to wait until a job offer is officially on the table. That way, if one comes out, and the offer is rescinded, then there's a good case for a discrimination law suit.

[Misato]

It's critical to wait until a job offer is officially on the table. That way, if one comes out, and the offer is rescinded, then there's a good case for a discrimination law suit.

In a rare case, I find I'm more libratarian in my thinking here.  If an employer doesn't want to hire me because I'm trans, get me a list of their competitors and I'll use my talent to help whomp em' in the marketplace.  I beleive there are many descent employers out there who would have me/us.

I don't think I'd go the lawsuit route either, even if I had the oppertunity.  Like I want to spend time in court and risk being picked up by conservative media to be cast as someone looking for special treatment.  I'm a good engineer and a good person.  If an employer is so disturbed with me being trans that they over look my good points and want to let me go but, they are forced to keep me on by law against their will, that to me has the makings of a hostile environment.

I remain glad I outed myself.  I remain glad I slowed down.  Should I not get the job, I will not blame the event on my coming out.  I may do things differently on a subsequent interview, but for now I'm happy with what I have done on this front.

I feel compelled to be clear that there is discrimination that I do have deeply rooted problems with.  For example, I hold laws that make it ok to bully provided that the bullying has a religious grounding are an abomination.

[Misato]

Check that, now that I officially didn't get the job I don't blame it on my coming out.  I blame it on my history in manufacturing.