to BE the man, or to be WITH the man.. (Transitioning confusion.)

[delzebub]

Hey all, I'm new here, so forgive me this may be the wrong forum. 

Anyway. I've been identifying as genderqueer for four years or so after coming into crisis as to whether or not I wanted to go on T and physically transition. I was glad I didn't and ended up really enjoying my genderqueer identity, as I feel most comfortable just having the freedom to do what I want and wear whatever "feminine"/"masculine" clothes I wanted without stressing too much about what I came off as or why.

However, as the years endured, I keep going BACK to the possibility of going on T. I get frustrated sometimes with being read completely as female (as this was the sex assigned to me at birth) especially when I want to wear really feminine things, but I just come off as a really feminine female. I've had this debate with myself before, whether I am more comfortable with identifying as a feminine "male", and I've had thoughts to back that up. As in, ever since I was very young, I've always taken up the roles in make-believe games as men, mostly gender-fluid men who abode by their own rules in that sense. As I got older, and realized this was less socially acceptable, I took the roles I cherished into writing, which I still do to this day in roleplaying on forums and writing.

Seems like pretty strong evidence for me to go on T for myself, right? WRONG. The part I ALWAYS get caught up with, time and time again, is: "Hey, look. There's an attractive man. Do I envy him and want to be him, or do I want to be WITH him?" As in, I've always been attracted to men sexually. I've never been sexually attracted to women, but romantically attracted. And whenever I am attracted to people, whether it be romantically or sexually, they are almost always sort of androgynous-appearing in some way. The men I am sexually attracted to tend to be very "feminine". The women I am romantically attracted tend to be very "masculine".

Anyway, that's where I start screwing myself up? I get caught up in figuring out if I envy men I fall in love with and thus want to be more like them, or whether I am actually just a more masculine-leaning trans*genderqueer person that enjoys men and the occasional company of women too?

AND THEN.. HERE IS WHERE IT GETS BAD, READY?

I start to undermine my own ideas of women. Like, I inwardly go: "BAH! How dare you cut femininity off so! Why are you doing this? Do you not see value in women and the Feminine? Why do you have to be so detached from it?" Which is kind of a legit question in my standing, because in both sides of my family, being a woman has been a very uncomfortable/scary place to be. So I go... "IS THIS SOME KIND OF WEIRD psychological defense mechanism I have in place in my head?? Am I just tripping myself out, here?? Has the patriarchal culture brainwashed me??"

...It gets bad, all. It gets bad.
And it's driving me nuts. It has been for yeaaars.



Mod Edit- no foul language please.

[Qrachel]

Hi Delz:

Welcome to this world.  You'll find a lot of interesting and useful stuff here.

WRT your post: I'm not very well versed in the areas of attraction and gender manifestation you are describing.  I'm sure people will come along who are.  It would be useful if you could provide a little "case history" involving if and how discussions went with professionals you may have spoken to and/or others you have confided in and listened to their feedback.  If that's too personal, share what you are comfortable with.

Again, welcome and keep talking - its putting things in conversation that generates some of the most amazing breakthroughs.

The best to you and yours,

Rachel

[mfox]

"Hey, look. There's an attractive man. Do I envy him and want to be him, or do I want to be WITH him?" As in, I've always been attracted to men sexually. I've never been sexually attracted to women, but romantically attracted.

Thank you so much for putting this into words.  I've felt the same way all my life (though I'm coming from the opposite direction; I used to be a feminine male and now I'm on E).  For me, I finally figured out it was envy after a few short term relationships, and I only actually fell in love with men.

[Elis]

I'm kinda similar to you. I thought I was GQ first (only lasted a few months though, if that), now I know I'm definitely a trans guy. At first I was hesitate about taking T but after a year or so thinking it over I know I have to try it. Being called female gives me too much dysphoria and I want some muscles/facial hair. That being said as soon as I'm being read mostly as a man by others I want to finally unleash my fem side, which I hated before as that would mean people would see me as female. I've only realised I've had this side to me recently as I've learned to not care so much what others think. I also don't feel 100% male, but not sure if that's bcos I haven't gone through the right puberty yet.

Also I'm not sure what my sexuality is, I just go by queer. I'm a tad demisexual I think. And like you I like androgynous women but fem guys. If I'm attracted to someone then I'm attracted to them. It's not healthy for me to obsess over what box I fit in, which I used to do a lot.

Hope I sorta helped.

[KathyLauren]

Welcome to the forum.  Flip the genders in your post, and that could be me.  Especially this part...

"Hey, look. There's an attractive man. Do I envy him and want to be him, or do I want to be WITH him?"

When I appreciate a beatiful woman, I am realizing that it is more envy than desire.  But, it's a bit of both, too.  If I had my choice, I would be a lesbian.

I am still trying to get my head around all this.  So, sorry, I have no advice for you, but I know where you are coming from.

[FriendsCallMeChris]

Hey delzebub,
This kinda sounds to me like you are mixing who you want to be with who you want to be with. For me, these are two very different things. Have you tried compartmentallizing them in your mind to see if they are actually separate or connected?

[Asche]

"Hey, look. There's an attractive man. Do I envy him and want to be him, or do I want to be WITH him?"

Why can't it be both?

I start to undermine my own ideas of women. Like, I inwardly go: "BAH! How dare you cut femininity off so! Why are you doing this? Do you not see value in women and the Feminine? Why do you have to be so detached from it?" Which is kind of a legit question in my standing, because in both sides of my family, being a woman has been a very uncomfortable/scary place to be. So I go... "IS THIS SOME KIND OF WEIRD psychological defense mechanism I have in place in my head?? Am I just tripping myself out, here?? Has the patriarchal culture brainwashed me??"

I hope you're in therapy, because this sounds like a good thing to bring up there.

However, there's another way to look at it: even if it is patriarchal brainwashing, that's who I am now.  I mean, like a tree growing in a pile of rocks, who we are has been shaped by our environment -- by the family we grew up in, by the society we grew up in.  If we are uncomfortable with some aspect of what we've turned/been turned into, then it makes sense to try to change it, but as for the aspects we're comfortable with (or not so uncomfortable with that we want to go to all the trouble of changing them), why not go along with them?  (I mean, if society wants to brainwash me into liking chocolate ice cream, I say, go for it! )

BTW, this is pretty much where cis people are: they're more or less comfortable with the gender they've been assigned -- or, to be more precise, with what they've made of the gender they've been assigned -- and the fact that it's at least partly a product of society's brainwashing doesn't bother them enough to want to reject it.

[FTMax]

You would probably benefit from talking to a professional if you've been struggling with this for years. Therapy is the starting point of transition for a great majority of people anyway, so if you do decide that it is right for you, you'd already be involved in the process.

[Khatru]

I've had similar thoughts. Very similar actually. I saw myself as genderqueer for a few years, but I realised that my attraction to men wasn't just attraction, it was also envy. I mean, I'm pansexual and my attraction to women feels completely different, I don't have any desire to look like them. So, I think that made me able to separate attraction from envy, and to accept that I actually am mostly male.

Other people have suggested talking to a therapist and I think that could be a good idea for you too, if you're feeling up for it.

[amber roskamp]

You can be genderqueer and take t. Testosterone isn't exclusive to men. I know a few non-binary people that transitioned. I identify as a demigirl and that's a non-binary identity but I'm transitioning. I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you! Don't try to first into other people's mold just do you.

Also why does it matter who you are attracted to or why you are attracted to them. All that matters is that you are attracted to them. I have had several relationships that I was both envious and attracted to certain aspects of the person not all gender related stuff. I think it's just a healthy amount of admiration. We queer trans people tend to focus on physical traits when we think about traits that we are envious of in our partners body because many of us have gender dysphoria and that causes tons of insecurity in our bodies. But think about why you like there personality. Often I like people when they have personality traits that I always wish I had or strive to have. Like my last girlfriend was really easy going and could make anybody laugh at any time. She was also incredibly strong and didn't let her difficult pass prevent her from being unhappy. I admired both of those things and wished I was more like that. I also had a similar attraction to her body because I am a queer trans feminine person. I don't think it's weird. I think it's normal to be honest.