Just what is"Living full time as a woman"?

[Jamie D]

In some places, the legal policy of "informed consent" is being instituted.

I understand your frustration with "gatekeepers" and guidelines.  But the Standards of Care exist to help prevents mistakes - mistakes that sometimes prove fatal.

[Carbon]

Yeah, what I'm questioning is what "RLE" actually has to do with preventing mistakes in regards to SRS. Beyond, you know, being part of giving people such a hard time that they give up and resign themselves to being unhappy for the rest of their lives and/or killing themselves. I'd definitely question if the current system has saved more lives than it's ruined.

[rachl]

In some places, the legal policy of "informed consent" is being instituted.

I understand your frustration with "gatekeepers" and guidelines.  But the Standards of Care exist to help prevents mistakes - mistakes that sometimes prove fatal.

It's being paraded around for being an issue of informed consent, but no one needs 1-2yrs of it. At most a month. But look at other voluntary procedures: do you have to get a diagnosis and try out a new set of false breasts before you can have breast augmentation surgery?

There are no real analogues for how trans people are treated in the name of 'informed consent.'

[Carbon]

It's being paraded around for being an issue of informed consent, but no one needs 1-2yrs of it. At most a month. But look at other voluntary procedures: do you have to get a diagnosis and try out a new set of false breasts before you can have breast augmentation surgery?

There are no real analogues for how trans people are treated in the name of 'informed consent.'

I think I'd require 3-6 months, a waiver of responsibility to the therapist (you won't sue them if you change your mind), and self reporting that the desire has been consistent for the past two years. Some people need more than a month to work through their stuff and this is not just cosmetic but something that can impact a lot of different things that most people aren't aware of.

Hormones are another issue entirely to me.

[Asfsd4214]

I'm a big time libertarian, so I do agree with you rhetorically. But we do have idiots that will sue any and everybody they can when they screw up. That's more than likely why we have standards in place like we do, and why everybody follows the standards.

That's a problem with the system. The system should throw out stupid lawsuits like that without blinking twice. A bandaid solution to the problem is not fixing the problem. Also, how common are those suits really? And since you can sue anyone over almost anything, the RLE doesn't truly stop that, it just provides the same defense informed consent does.

Jamie D, you still have yet to actually comment on any of my hypotheticals, you just repeat the same thing over and over. Go ahead, defend an unjust establishment if you want. It's your right.

Personally I think it's disgusting and unjust to defend an unethical establishment trying to control the lives of adults in their consenting affairs.

[Asfsd4214]

In some places, the legal policy of "informed consent" is being instituted.

I understand your frustration with "gatekeepers" and guidelines.  But the Standards of Care exist to help prevents mistakes - mistakes that sometimes prove fatal.

First off, 'in some places' is weasel logic, what places? In what context? That's just playing with words to hijack the argument.

I'm going to ask this one last time, and if you decide not to comment on it again I'm just gonna stop posting in this thread.

Why then do we not have the same requirements for tattoo's, cosmetic surgery, piercings, etc.

This is pathetic, and no, I don't actually have to live with it. I do not recognize the authority of the psychiatric establishment. I will speak out against it and I will speak out against its supporters.

EDIT: When I get frustrated I say stupid stuff that could get me in trouble with the admins so I'm removing it now that I'm feeling a little less enraged by the lack of sound, rational, scientific based argument of hypothetical governmental policies.

[kelly_aus]

First off, 'in some places' is weasel logic, what places? In what context? That's just playing with words to hijack the argument.

I'm going to ask this one last time, and if you decide not to comment on it again I'm just gonna stop posting in this thread.

Why then do we not have the same requirements for tattoo's, cosmetic surgery, piercings, etc.

This is pathetic, and no, I don't actually have to live with it. I do not recognize the authority of the psychiatric establishment. I will speak out against it and I will speak out against its supporters.

EDIT: When I get frustrated I say stupid stuff that could get me in trouble with the admins so I'm removing it now that I'm feeling a little less enraged by the lack of sound, rational, scientific based argument of hypothetical governmental policies.

Actually, a friend of mine recently went for a consult for some facial work and a BA, the plastic surgeon recommended the she speak to one of his 'colleagues', who happened to be a psychologist.. The plastics guy made it clear that if my friend wanted the work done by him, this was not optional.. My friend is not trans and is quite attractive to start with..

As far as tattoo's and piercings go, that are a slightly different issue, at least as far as comparisons to SRS..

Just because you've had bad experiences with psychiatrists doesn't mean they are all bad, nor that they don't give useful advice..

[Asfsd4214]

Actually, a friend of mine recently went for a consult for some facial work and a BA, the plastic surgeon recommended the she speak to one of his 'colleagues', who happened to be a psychologist.. The plastics guy made it clear that if my friend wanted the work done by him, this was not optional.. My friend is not trans and is quite attractive to start with..

As far as tattoo's and piercings go, that are a slightly different issue, at least as far as comparisons to SRS..

Just because you've had bad experiences with psychiatrists doesn't mean they are all bad, nor that they don't give useful advice..

I can only go based on my observations, and I've dealt with a LOT of psychiatrists.

Furthermore you can see it in the history of psychiatrists and their abuses. Lobotomies, homosexuals. Just look at the crazy stuff freud came up with, or ray blanchard.

You only need look at the history of psychiatry to see why people hate them.

Why is it a different issue? It's still permanent, the principle is still the same.

Also, I don't have a particular issue with the surgeons wanting you to see a psychologist first (I hate psychiatrists far more than psychologists). My only issue is with surgeons being arbitrarily forced to make you see a shrink who then arbitrarily sets up little hoops for you to go through.

The system whereby surgeons are afraid of legal liability is the problem. That's what needs to change.

I don't think EVERY psychiatrist is bad, but I think the majority of them are arrogant, ignorant, and have an unfounded sense of authority. And I think that the history of psychiatry and its practices are largely responsible for their problems today.

I've never had a psychiatrist I've seen for gender related issues that I respect. That I think had any time for rational, evidence based discussion. (I've been in contact with 5, 1 was ok but didn't have much of anything to say, the other 4 I have no time for)

I have seen a psychologist I respect, and I have seen at least one shrink I have time for who I saw for my other mental health problems.

[Jeneva]

Also, I don't have a particular issue with the surgeons wanting you to see a psychologist first (I hate psychiatrists far more than psychologists). My only issue is with surgeons being arbitrarily forced to make you see a shrink who then arbitrarily sets up little hoops for you to go through.

You can use a master's level therapist and a psychologist for the letters, there is no need to see a psychiatrist at all.

Yes, the rules are silly and not uniform, but what does it hurt to follow them?  I actually think we ought to be recommending yearly therapist visits for EVERYONE.  A good therapist can teach a lot of things in just an hour.  If me meeting with my therapist for 12 appointments that I would have likely had anyway protects even one single person then I will not complain.  Sure I would love to see the timeframe reduced to something similar what is required for bariatric surgeries, but it isn't today.

[Asfsd4214]

You can use a master's level therapist and a psychologist for the letters, there is no need to see a psychiatrist at all.

Yes, the rules are silly and not uniform, but what does it hurt to follow them?  I actually think we ought to be recommending yearly therapist visits for EVERYONE.  A good therapist can teach a lot of things in just an hour.  If me meeting with my therapist for 12 appointments that I would have likely had anyway protects even one single person then I will not complain.  Sure I would love to see the timeframe reduced to something similar what is required for bariatric surgeries, but it isn't today.

Oh sweet god. I'll tell you what it hurts, it hurts me.

The anxiety of having to see them, the money for what they cost, the time I won't get back, and their unfounded sense of authority causing them to lecture you and talk over you.

[kelly_aus]

Oh sweet god. I'll tell you what it hurts, it hurts me.

The anxiety of having to see them, the money for what they cost, the time I won't get back, and their unfounded sense of authority causing them to lecture you and talk over you.

Wow.. Bitter much?

When I started seeing my psychiatrist, I saw him once a week for a 30 min session.. That soon became every 2 weeks, then every month and is now every 2 months.. Hardly a lot of time.. And, thanks to Medicare, not a huge amount of money. And I don't know where his 'unfounded sense of authority' is, I've never witnessed it. He's certainly never lectured me or tried to talk over me. Does he have an agenda? Sure, it's my continued good mental health.. Maybe I got lucky with my therapist.. He was recommended to me by other trans people.. He's never put a roadblock in front of me, has never suggested that I'm not feminine enough.. He's been nothing but supportive and helpful..

[Asfsd4214]

Wow.. Bitter much?

When I started seeing my psychiatrist, I saw him once a week for a 30 min session.. That soon became every 2 weeks, then every month and is now every 2 months.. Hardly a lot of time.. And, thanks to Medicare, not a huge amount of money. And I don't know where his 'unfounded sense of authority' is, I've never witnessed it. He's certainly never lectured me or tried to talk over me. Does he have an agenda? Sure, it's my continued good mental health.. Maybe I got lucky with my therapist.. He was recommended to me by other trans people.. He's never put a roadblock in front of me, has never suggested that I'm not feminine enough.. He's been nothing but supportive and helpful..

Not a huge amount of money? Maybe not for you. I can't speak for you but I'm below the poverty line and I can't afford to spend money to waste my time seeing some know it all I don't trust.

I already have to spend 130$ on medication a month, HRT is nothing, try antidepressants, antipsychotics, medications for multiple sclerosis and its fatigue symptoms. Neurologists visits, MRI's, etc. I can't afford to waste money paying someone to think for me. I think too much as it is already.

Maybe you don't witness it because you don't argue with them. I challenge, argue, debate, it's in my nature to question, which is why I so strongly believe in science and reason.

Your definition of a roadblock may be different to mine as well.

Maybe he doesn't challenge your femininity because you conform to his ideas. Based on your avatar photo, I probably don't.

Also, you and I are in Australia and have the benefit of medicare, our American friends aren't so lucky (although at least informed consent exists over there.)

[kelly_aus]

Not a huge amount of money? Maybe not for you. I can't speak for you but I'm below the poverty line and I can't afford to spend money to waste my time seeing some know it all I don't trust.

I already have to spend 130$ on medication a month, HRT is nothing, try antidepressants, antipsychotics, medications for multiple sclerosis and its fatigue symptoms. Neurologists visits, MRI's, etc. I can't afford to waste money paying someone to think for me. I think too much as it is already.

Maybe you don't witness it because you don't argue with them. I challenge, argue, debate, it's in my nature to question, which is why I so strongly believe in science and reason.

Your definition of a roadblock may be different to mine as well.

Maybe he doesn't challenge your femininity because you conform to his ideas. Based on your avatar photo, I probably don't.

Also, you and I are in Australia and have the benefit of medicare, our American friends aren't so lucky (although at least informed consent exists over there.)

The profile pic is somewhat of a misrepresentation.. That was taken at a wedding where I was a bridesmaid.. I'm usually to be found lurking around in a pair of jeans and a tshirt..

As far as arguing with my therapist? Yep, happens at least every second session.. If not every session..

OK, I'll admit there was a roadblock.. The having to see him for 3 months before he could write my HRT letter.. Guess what, though? That was a requirement of his insurance provider, based on the current version of the SoC's at the time.. He has told me he was ready to write it after my 2nd session..

No, I don't conform to his ideas as to what is feminine is - he has no hard rules on that..  Given what I know about his other clients, it seems that identifying as a woman is good enough for him...

I should also admit at this point that prior to my seeing him, I had thought all psychiatrists and psychologists to be quacks and frauds...

[V M]

Everyone's situation is different     I've had some therapists that I've liked better than others because I felt that they were more understanding

I'm not particularly wealthy either and I'm dealing with some mental and physical issues as well  Affording the cost of transitioning is a struggle for me, luckily a dear friend has helped where and when they can

I live full time as a woman, but that doesn't mean I get all dolled up all the time    I don't really know of any women who do

I actually feel that the answer is within the tittle of the tread    That is to say that living full time as a woman is exactly that, living as a woman

[AbraCadabra]

[clipped]

I actually feel that the answer is within the tittle of the tread    That is to say that living full time as a woman is exactly that, living as a woman

This exactly.
It yet brings to mind that it is difficult, often impossible to understand & feel what something is all about  - if one has not EXPERIENCED it.
Now WHO will prevent one to go full time RLE? Who? Why not just do it?

Do you think for one moment, that say after SRS that "what is preventing one" will change in any way? --- I don't see that for one moment.

And as it was mentioned too - there are then always those people that will NEVER blame themselves, but always have to project a bad decision onto anyone else, rather than putting it into their own lap.

Look about you how many lawyers are kept in top living for that being their speciality, - to sue medical practitioners...

Can you blame anyone for them trying to play it more save?

I don't think so at all,
Axélle

[Asfsd4214]

This exactly.
It yet brings to mind that it is difficult, often impossible to understand & feel what something is all about  - if one has not EXPERIENCED it.
Now WHO will prevent one to go full time RLE? Who? Why not just do it?

Do you think for one moment, that say after SRS that "what is preventing one" will change in any way? --- I don't see that for one moment.

And as it was mentioned too - there are then always those people that will NEVER blame themselves, but always have to project a bad decision onto anyone else, rather than putting it into their own lap.

Look about you how many lawyers are kept in top living for that being their speciality, - to sue medical practitioners...

Can you blame anyone for them trying to play it more save?

I don't think so at all,
Axélle

That's the fault of the legal system. As I said, putting a bandaid on the problem doesn't actually fix it.

[Michelle G]

I have always had the "piece of mind" since a very young age of knowing I should be a girl, so from the inside looking out that's is always who I have lived, now what people actually see might look like something else entirely! But I was able to tailor my mannerisms to fit my appearance so that I would fit in without fear of teasing, questions etc.

I am able to express my female side in my art, and when I am alone I don't have to use my male traits as a smoke screen to keep others off my back.

Lately, and as I got older I really don't care what others see so my looks are changing more to what "I" want to see as I walk past a dreaded mirror or window.

My wife has been very understanding since I came out to her so on the ranch here I can just be me myself and I all the time with no fallout or comments

I have followed a couple friends thru their required 1 year of RLE so I know full well what is entailed with that as an "official" step in the transition process.

[rachl]

I have followed a couple friends thru their required 1 year of RLE so I know full well what is entailed with that as an "official" step in the transition process.

And what do you consider that to be?

[Michelle G]

Rachl, dont look to deep into what I said, this was 20 years ago and I was just referring to what they were telling me at the time

[rachl]

Rachl, dont look to deep into what I said, this was 20 years ago and I was just referring to what they were telling me at the time

But, I think, this is the very point of the thread, and definitely the point of my re-igniting it (wow, that really took off). I'm currently thinking about this (in an academic sense), and I'm looking for what people consider to be the official 'start' of one's RLE. I don't think that there is a well defined way to do this, but I'm looking for the diversity of views that I think are out there. Right now, I suspect that the medico-psychological industry thinks one thing, but they're ignoring what it means to be a woman (or a man for transmen) and what it means to begin living "full time" as one's new gender. And part of what they're ignoring is the diversity of how women/men live gendered and sexed lives.